Do I Expose Her Or Let Sleeping Dogs Lie (hiv)

[jdinasia]

A few years ago my wife asked if I wanted to go see something. When I asked what, she just said come and see. So off we went. The something turned out to be a woman dieing of aids. The story was her husband was working in Patong, he got infected, and on his infrequent visits home infected his wife. He eventually died. So she decided to go work in Patong, in the bars. My wife commented that she would be dead by next month. to which I said she will be dead before the w/end. She lasted 2 more days, I have seen more fat on a chip. One of the most disturbing things I have seen. When Sopha asked me what I thought about it all. I replied my only thought is how many people has she killed. The OP was lucky, but anyone who screws that woman is playing Russian roulette.

Anyone having unprotected sex is playing russian roulette, add having unprotected sex with a prostitute and at some point it is like playing russian roulette with a semi-automatic.

[Sheryl]

It is quite true that a significant proportion of commercial sex workers in Thailand (and many other places) are HIV+ and that anyone who engages in unprotected sex with them is taking a very foolish risk.

It is also true that nothing you can do is likely to result in curtailing her future activities within Thailand.

However, if you have the means to communicate privately with her previous sexual contacts, I would do so on moral grounds, and because if the roles were reversed, you'd want them to inform you. However be sensitive in how you go about this since you cannot be sure who has access to their email. Could end up causing unintended personal problems for these people, many of whom may have used protection with her and thus not even be at risk. So word the email carefully so as to be sure that information about their sexual activity and possible HIV risk will reach them and them only. Maybe ask them to contact you with an address and then send by post registered mail, or talk to them directly by phone. You don't want to be responsible for breaking up a marriage or jeopardizing someone's job.

If you know for a fact that she is going to a foreign country for the purposes of prostitution you can contact the Embassy of that country or, alternately, health officials there. If you go the Embassy route it may well result in her being denied a visa and, this being Thailand, I'd suggest you first obtain some assurance of confidentiality from the Embassy to protect yourself. You cannot get in legal trouble for this but you can certainly end up the target of revenge.

And, of course, even if you succeed in keeping her from doing this abroad, she will only continue to do it in Thailand.

This is a perfect example of one reason why the focus of AIDs prevention efforts is on encouraging routine universal use condoms in all non-monogamous sexual encounters rather than on trying to identify and "weed out" HIV+ sex workers....

By all means talk to her if you think it will do any good but I am highly doubtful that you will be able to persuade her to have more concern for future customers than she had for you, an apparently serious partner. Also, many sex workers harbor substantial resentment against men (and one who has been infected by a male customer, all the more so). In fact, in the course of my work in this area I have heard a number of HIV+ sex workers openly say they hope to infect men as a form of revenge/pay-back.

I think it is difficult for many men to understand just how emotionally damaged many women in the sex trade are/become.

If you do try talking with her the points that have the most chance of working, if anything will, are:

1. Even though she already has HIV, her health will suffer further if she has unprotected sex with an infected man: it will increase her viral load. (she may or may not understand this depending on how much she understands of the disease).

2. If she infects a man, he will then infect other women...a wife, girlfriends, and other sex workers like herself. After all, a customer whio has unprotected sex with her will surely do so with others, won't he? Thus she will indirectly wind up doing to another woman what was done to her. If that woman happens to become pregnant, she could even end up responsible for infecting an innocent child.

[jdinasia]

Sheryl,

I am not so certain that there are no legal ramifications in Thailand for informing others of her HIV status. Thailand has some very strong laws regarding defamation etc ... (even if what you are saying is true, it is possible to lose in court)

[Sheryl]

Sheryl,

I am not so certain that there are no legal ramifications in Thailand for informing others of her HIV status. Thailand has some very strong laws regarding defamation etc ... (even if what you are saying is true, it is possible to lose in court)

As I understand it, he is talking about privately informing, on a on-to-one basis, foreigners whio have had contact with her, not broadly publicizing her HIV status within Thailand (which aside from legal issues would be morally wrong as it could lead to discrimination and stiogmatization in all spheres of her life)

Thailand also has laws against prostitituon and I find it hard to imagine a prostitute filing suit over information given to their clients...

[Samuian]

......edited...

in the uk and probably in the rest of europe as well it is a criminal offence for an hiv+ person to deliberately put someone else at risk by having unprotected sex or not informing a partner of their hiv+ status.

morally i think it is your duty to expose her ....

I share this posters point!

She is simply reckless, careless, ignorant, towards others life, doesn't deserve being pampered!

[Mosha]

Just a thought and may be it will not achieve any thing. Contact your embassy, tell them the facts. You will then have done what you can, and nothing to do with Thailand I would think. Are not embassies sovereign territory?

Edited November 20, 2008 by Mosha

[jdinasia]

Sheryl,

I am not so certain that there are no legal ramifications in Thailand for informing others of her HIV status. Thailand has some very strong laws regarding defamation etc ... (even if what you are saying is true, it is possible to lose in court)

As I understand it, he is talking about privately informing, on a on-to-one basis, foreigners whio have had contact with her, not broadly publicizing her HIV status within Thailand (which aside from legal issues would be morally wrong as it could lead to discrimination and stiogmatization in all spheres of her life)

Thailand also has laws against prostitituon and I find it hard to imagine a prostitute filing suit over information given to their clients...

Sheryl you told him to contact Embassies, health officials, and individuals (by going through her private email information is how he had previously stated) and said that there were no legal complications to those acts. I agree that she probably would not take legal action but I do believe that she would be well within her rights as I understand them to sue and would very likely win in Thai courts.

to reiterate --- She would probably not have the wherewithal to sue .. but she could.

I am certain that if the OP decided to attempt action with employers etc in Thailand that it would be an extremely bad idea ...

As far as prostitution being illegal --- being a hooker does not take away her other rights.

[taxexile]

being a hooker does not take away her other rights.

...... like the right to pass on a dangerous disease whenever she chooses.

gimme a break.

she has already demonstrated a total lack of responsibility or decency , and because of that , she deserves to forfeit the rights to privacy regarding her condition , those rights that you seem , for some inexplicable reason, to champion.

anybody who informs the authorities or possible victims of a person like this should be given a humanitarian award !!

Edited November 20, 2008 by taxexile

[jdinasia]

being a hooker does not take away her other rights.

...... like the right to pass on a dangerous disease whenever she chooses.

gimme a break.

she has already demonstrated a total lack of responsibility or decency , and because of that , she deserves to forfeit the rights to privacy regarding her condition , those rights that you seem , for some inexplicable reason, to champion.

anybody who informs the authorities or possible victims of a person like this should be given a humanitarian award !!

Apparently you can't read ... "you seem, for some inexplicable reason, to champion"? Where have I championed ANYTHING in this thread? I merely pointed out that there could be legal complications to actions proposed by other people.

Anyone that sleeps with a prostitute and does not use protection is just earning an honorable mention in the Darwin Awards. Gay people where I am from quit making others responsible for their HIV status years ago. (Though some backsliding due to complacency has happened over the last few years, due to the idea that 'the cocktail' is an answer and through not having lived through the aftermath of "The Big Party" in the 70's and early 80's.

[agord]

I have a hard core feeling about this coming from watching almost everyone I knew die like flies in the 80's. It is every person's personal responsibility to protect yourself from HIV infection. You can't ever really trust what a person tells you about their status. They have a clear test now? How do you know it will be clear tomorrow? One lady with HIV, a drop in the bucket. I would do nothing except maybe make a donation to HIV prevention programs. The more disturbing thing are reports I have heard about HIV people deliberately infecting other people for revenge against society. I hope this isn't very common.

Jingthing you are an experienced poster, please come on surely this is an exaggeration, the exception being a resident in a San Francisco bath house.

Yes, this was San Francisco. There were NO drugs then. No treatments. A huge percentage also killed themselves soon after getting the diagnosis. Guys mostly in their 20s and 30s. It was common to see young people visibly age 30 years in a few months.

My Uncle was as you described. He went down hill within months and took his own life because of this terrible virus. I can't understand why he would have wanted to continue the relationship knowing that she wasn't concerned about your risk?

[taxexile]

Apparently you can't read ... "you seem, for some inexplicable reason, to champion"? Where have I championed ANYTHING in this thread? I merely pointed out that there could be legal complications to actions proposed by other people.

Anyone that sleeps with a prostitute and does not use protection is just earning an honorable mention in the Darwin Awards. Gay people where I am from quit making others responsible for their HIV status years ago. (Though some backsliding due to complacency has happened over the last few years, due to the idea that 'the cocktail' is an answer and through not having lived through the aftermath of "The Big Party" in the 70's and early 80's.

you seem to be putting her rights to privacy before the danger to public health that this woman and others like her pose.

..... and condoms can break.

[SpudIslander]

Well, upon waking up this morning, I can see that there has been much discussion about this issue. I must say that it leaves me with alot to think about from:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy" - Martin Luther King

The other is into seeking legal advice from a lawyer.

There doesn't seem to be any one clear answer.

[OxfordWill]

The group of people you may have some argument for warning would be the (presumably small) group of men who may, in future, fall in love with her, marry her and reasonably stop using condoms. This group, no longer fall under the safe harbour of the convincing argument that it is our personal responsibility to protect ourselves. Its difficult to ask your loved one to get an HIV test. I'll be damned if I know how to identify this potential group, so I think you don't have much reason to act on anything.

Edited November 20, 2008 by OxfordWill

[jdinasia]

Apparently you can't read ... "you seem, for some inexplicable reason, to champion"? Where have I championed ANYTHING in this thread? I merely pointed out that there could be legal complications to actions proposed by other people.

Anyone that sleeps with a prostitute and does not use protection is just earning an honorable mention in the Darwin Awards. Gay people where I am from quit making others responsible for their HIV status years ago. (Though some backsliding due to complacency has happened over the last few years, due to the idea that 'the cocktail' is an answer and through not having lived through the aftermath of "The Big Party" in the 70's and early 80's.

you seem to be putting her rights to privacy before the danger to public health that this woman and others like her pose.

..... and condoms can break.

I am not putting her anything anywhere I am discussing the potential legal aspects. You can keep coming with your "hang 'em high" attitude and it won't change the facts that in Thailand she would have every right to pursue damages. Frankly I think the OP is lucky and suffered no damages and that any thing the OP does on his part may be actionable.

The assumption one should make with ANY sex partner is that they are HIV+ and to do less so is risky. When that partner has had MANY partners then it is just stupid not to do so.

Again, I am not making any moral judgments about the choices that the OP has in front of him, I am addressing the fact that there may be legal implications to actions being discussed here.

Now ----- what percentage of the population where he found his "wife" do you think is HIV+?

[OxfordWill]

I would do so on moral grounds, and because if the roles were reversed, you'd want them to inform you.

This isn't really a good moral reason. Im sure you can think of situations in which you would want someone else to inform you of something if roles were reversed, but to do so would not be an appropriate or moral thing to do nonetheless.

Being HIV positive is not in itself immoral by most standards. Being a thief, for example, is. Telling other people that someone is a thief, is more justifiable. But can you see the difference?

Nor indeed is being HIV + and not telling your husband. No scientist would argue this makes her likely to never tell other people either. There's just no good argument for outing her on moral grounds. which is a shame, because I want to know who it is, just in case.

Edited November 20, 2008 by OxfordWill

[SpudIslander]

Laws are changing all the time and it differs from jurisdiction to jursidiction. In Canada, a man goes into a bar and drinks far too much, gets into his car and drives home, he gets stopped by the police and is charged, in addition the owner of the bar gets charged as well. In Thailand, same scenario, the man gives the policeman a 100 baht and thats the end. Thailand is tolerant, Canada has zero tolerance laws to protect the innocent public. Zero tolerance is growing amongst countries and in the very near future it is possible that I may even be charged for failure to diclose a crime.

Also, please note that I am not totally out of the woods as yet, hiv may not show up from the first test, I have an appointment on December 15th for another test.

[mikethevigoman]

Tricky one isnt it, shes a potential killer,and you are aware of it,. i really cant get my head around anyone being told they are positive and carrying on regardless,. is there no limit to how low some of these women will stoop, bizarre,......

[Maverell]

Excuse me but how is she planning a trip to Europe ? Where is the visa coming from ?

[SpudIslander]

Excuse me but how is she planning a trip to Europe ? Where is the visa coming from ?

I am no longer in conversations with her but from one of my previous conversations and during the time I was with her, there were two possibilities.

1. She has a friend in Sweden and she tells me that when sponsered for a 30 day tourist visa, hiv tests are not a requirement.

2. Romania, I don't know details about that country.

[taxexile]

Now ----- what percentage of the population where he found his "wife" do you think is HIV+?

who knows.

thats not the point here.

i believe that a person who has a contagious serious disease , be it hiv+, hepatitis or t.b., should act responsibly and take reasonable steps to prevent transmission of that disease to other people either by informing them or by avoiding situations that may cause transmission and if they wont take those reasonable steps , then , if possible , somebody else should do it for them.

if a close friend or relative of yours was about to put themselves at risk with by becoming intimate with somebody with a sexually transmitted disease or any other serious contagious disease would you advise your friend/relative of that or would you consider the privacy rights of the infected person first?

I'll be damned if I know how to identify this potential group, so I think you don't have much reason to act on anything.

this potential group is "anybody out there" and anything that can be done to possibly prevent this woman from pursuing her intended course of action would be a good thing.

pursue damages

damages for what exactly ?

[jdinasia]

read the posts in the thread tax --- re damages (there could be both criminal AND civil damages in a case like this if it were to go to court in Thailand) Look up section 328 of the Thai penal code for the criminal law .... I would have to look deeper for the civil law

I assume you warn all your friends and family never to partake in the cause of this man's unfortunate problems, knowing that a large number of sexually generous (promiscuous) people are infected with one or more STI's?

Yes I would warn friends but I certainly wouldn't do more than that. You roll the dice, you take your chances. This may be a new subject for you and for many other people but I took my first HIV test in 1984 I think. Those of us that few up with "The Plague" around us have learned a lot about how to be responsible for our own actions.

[kingwillly]

Anyone having unprotected sex is playing russian roulette, add having unprotected sex with a prostitute and at some point it is like playing russian roulette with a semi-automatic.

their fault then, aint it.

[Insight]

A real head-scratcher of a dilemma here.

It's too easy to take the moral high ground here without some serious consideration to SpudIslander's long term ambitions in Thailand, and the safety of anybody else he chooses to get involved with while here. Tired cliche I know, but the old "rice bowl" saying has to be taken into account if he goes whistle-blowing. Bearing in mind the fact that this girl clearly has little concern for the health of other people sexually, it's not unimaginable he'll run the risk of being attacked if her own livelihood was threatened anyhow.

It could well be possible to act to prevent any possible future HIV infections from this girl knowing a bit more about the risks involved in doing so - I don't feel like we do right now.

I hope your results in the next few months are clear SpudIslander.

[cclub75]

I met a thai girl (a working girl) in 2007, fell in love, married her (Buddist wedding not registered) and had unprotected sex for a year and a half. On September 2, 2008 she had a headache and sore throat so we went to the hospital (Bangkok) to check it out. The doctor reviewed her file and noted that the last visit (2 years ago) she tested hiv positive and asked if she had told me (in thai). She told her that no but perhaps I should tell him now. I was shocked and immediately had a hiv test but negative.

I'm astonished by your attitude. But I can't choose precisely between :

-ingenuity

-stupidity

-or huge sense of compassion and forgiveness, making you almost a Saint

This woman played with your life for a year and half. Nothing more nothing less.

It's more than betrayal, more than a dirty and stupid lie.... it's.... murder attempt.

Nothing can justify her acts.

And all you can do now is to think about a moral dilemna about her going to Europe, going back to work etc, whatever.

That's impressive. You have pardoned.

I think many people would have reacted differently.

(as for the question you ask, I don't know. I still think that this woman should be sent to jail. She's a walking death threat to people and should be dealt with accordingly)

Edited November 20, 2008 by cclub75

[mommysboy]

It's an awful ailment, thankfully controllable by drugs, so on hindsight I'd have to agree with those that would seek to curtail the girl's actions. Could prevent a lot of pain and suffering.

That being said I have some suspicions regarding the transmission evidence used in courts, and the efficacy of female to male transmission anyway, but I can't justify this as I have no medical qualifications.

[james24]

if she wasnt Thai would you be contemplating this in the same way??

[Mosha]

If we are worrying about the legal aspects. The beer garden on Sukhumvit Soi 7 regularly posts pictures of the girls who are known thieves. The owner doesn't have a problem, surely you could argue that that is defamation of character.

[Tolley]

I wonder how many girls are in this situation?

It seems to me that this problem could be larger than most of us think especially in places like Pattaya.

I am not sure how you can really effectively warn anyone unless you know where she works.

You could go to the police but i doubt that they would do anything.

You could i suppose post something on the internet anonymously.

[geriatrickid]

thankfully controllable by drugs,

Assuming that the subject has access to the appropriate medications and can pay for them. Unfortunately, universal access in Thailand is not the reality.

[Sheryl]

Reading the latest posts on this thread, one thing that amazes me is that many people seem shocked at the idea of an HIV+ sex worker out there potentially infecting clients.

This is hardly anything new or unusual.

The current rate of infection among female prostitutes in Thailand is aroung 8% -- that's about 1 in 15. Rates in male sex workers are substantuially higher as are rates in IV drug users.

The rates used to be much higher, they were reduced in no small measure by a government policy of promoting "100% condom use"in sex establishments. The biggest problem encountered in implementing that public health measure, bith in Thailand and in Cambodia which has taken the same approach, has been resistance from customers. It is not uncommon for male clients to offer extra money in exchange for not using a condom or even to become violent towards the woman. Its not the workers who are uncooperative but some of the clients (and also some of the proprietors if they do not provide the physical protection/back up that is sometimes needed when clients refuse to comply with the policy).

Which brings me to the second point which struck me: while I by no means condone this woman's actions, it strikes me as odd that there is such strong denunciation of her and none for the man who infected her in the first place. Most likely a client who did not use a condom, and even if he did not know he was infected he must surely have known that he might be. And for all we know, he may have been asked to use a condom and refused to do so.

Yes, this woman's actions were and are wrong . But let's keep in mind that she is just one link in a chain of irresponsible actions taken by many people.

Minus the not telling the husband twist, her story is sadly a common one (and even that is hardly unique..)

She quite likely has infected, will go on to infect, some men -- but it won't be through an act of force and it probably won't be because she prevents them from using condoms. Nor is it likely in this day and age that any of these men will not know that unprotected sex carries this risk.

As I said, not justifying her. just pointing out that if we are going to be upset about what she is doing we should be equally upset/outraged at the clients who, despite all the efforts that have gone into awareness raising and ensuring the availability of condoms, still engage in high risk sex without them. That is most likely how she gfot infected in the first place and how any infections she may cause will occur.....