Government House Damages Estimated At Bt100 Million

[JetsetBkk]

Saw it on Thai PBS news last night: chairs and sofas destroyed by knife cuts in nice X shape, computers busted etc.

Outside the building it looked a trash dump.

I don't care how much it will cost to repair, it was idiot's work.

Idiot's work indeed, but strangely the footage in the press recently showed nothing of the sort. Makes one wonder where and when those things really happened?

<snip>

Can't you see what' brewing ?????

No - he's just trying to sow doubt in peoples' minds about who is responsible. Normal tactic (used by both sides), but it won't work here.

[permanent_disorder]

Read your history books of 1973, 76 and myriad other bloody events in Thai history if you can't read the writing on the wall now.

Thumbs up!

Very well observed!

How about an genuinely independent appraisal?

could both of you recommed me one, or two, three of those history books on 1973 and 1976.

what chamlong was doing during this years?

plachon, Samuian, why don't name the books you are reading. you know, there is not one history but many histories. if i would know what you are reading that would help me to understand your opinion.

[younghusband]

Among the supporters of the PAD thugs on this forum, any attempt at honesty long since disappeared.Chang Noi's latest piece is worth a look:

CHANG NOI

The culture of protest and the use of violence

By Chang Noi

Published on December 8, 2008

THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE in the political stand-off of the last six months is new and disturbing. In Thailand's past history of public protest, the violence committed was almost totally the work of security forces engaged in repression. This time the violence was committed in the name of protest. All sides contributed in various ways. But as PAD was the main protagonist, violence committed by those on the PAD side has been the most prominent.

The security forces killed scores of people while clearing demonstrations in 1976 and 1992, and were responsible for "disappearing" people especially in the late 1940s and early 1950s, in the mopping-up of communism in the 1980s, and in the South in the late 1940s and early 2000s. Political conflict within the military has often erupted into fighting.

But throughout Thailand's modern history of public politics, the culture of political demonstration has been largely cast in the tradition of non-violence. The revolution of 1932 was achieved without firing a shot or injuring anyone. The Peace Movement demonstrations after World War II were calm and without casualties. The massive student demonstration of October 13-14, 1973 had the atmosphere of a peaceful celebration until the army was ordered to crack down. In May 1992, there were a couple of incidents when protesters fought back against the police, but the overall tenor of the demonstration was set by Chamlong Srimuang and his Santi Asoke followers who sat calmly awaiting arrest. The succession of Bangkok demonstrations by the Assembly of the Poor in the mid-1990s saw no casualties except for a handful of small accidents. The 99-day Assembly protest in 1997 - the largest and longest protest prior to the PAD this year - was marked by no more than a few minor scuffles. Thousands of smaller demonstrations all over the country in the past 20 years have passed with only a handful of violent incidents attributable usually to over-exuberance.

The PAD protests in 2006 belonged to this same non-violent culture. Violence was confined to verbal abuse. But the campaign that developed from May this year was approached in a mode of warfare. The PAD sites at Government House, Makhawan Bridge, and the airports were like defensive encampments. Barbed wire never featured in earlier demonstrations. This time the bales were everywhere. Defensive barriers were built with used tyres, commandeered vehicles, plastic water bottles, and airport luggage trolleys. Yellow shirts and banners served as a form of uniform. Leaders wore other military-like gear including neck-scarves, epaulette shirts, camouflage trousers, and combat jerkins. Buildings were besieged. Units were moved around Bangkok streets like troops on manoeuvre.

From around September onwards, PAD leaders talked regularly about the prospect of a "civil war". The airport seizure was announced as the "final battle". After this "Hiroshima", we were told to expect "Nagasaki". PAD leaders justified anything by explaining "we are now at war".

A major difference from earlier demonstrations has been the "guards". During the 99-day protest at Government House in 1997, the Assembly of the Poor had a contingent of guards to serve as lookouts and to keep order. But this corps was very small compared to the PAD's equivalent. The Assembly recruits were members of the demonstrations not paid professionals. And they were unarmed or equipped with nothing more elaborate than a stick.

At the time the PAD moved to the airports, Sondhi Limthongkul stated that the PAD had 10,000 guards on shifts distributed among its protest sites. That figure might well have been exaggerated for effect, but the true number probably runs into thousands. Early in the campaign, Sondhi stated that the guards were mostly recruited among ex-policemen and ex-soldiers, and were paid by the day. Later on the PAD, imported units of guards from upcountry, especially from Chonburi, Rayong, Phetchaburi, and towns in the south. The looting that has been a hallmark of the PAD campaign suggests many were petty criminals. Some have said they came from "private armies".

Most guards were armed with simple weapons such as sticks, lengths of steel pipe, and sling shots. After the first invasion of Government House, over a hundred used golf clubs were confiscated. Photos have shown people wielding knives, machetes, and swords. A famous clip featured a PAD guard emptying a handgun on a major Bangkok thoroughfare. An Uzi machine gun was found in the car of one PAD leader's personal bodyguard, and may have been looted from a police cache in Government House. During the October 7 clash, a leader of the PAD guards was blown to pieces by a car full of bombs of some description. Vehicles have also been used as weapons. On October 7, a pickup deliberately drove over a policeman, and a bus was used to ram the police line. During the police's token appearance at Suvarnabhumi Airport, a truck was accelerated through the police line. Home-made bombs, shotguns, grenades, pistols, and explosives were found in the PAD vehicles.

On October 7, the PAD itself was on the receiving end of an incompetent police crackdown. From then onwards, shots and bombs were exchanged between the PAD guards and others on almost a nightly basis. A PAD supporter was dragged from a car and beaten to death in Chiang Mai. Grenades were launched into PAD positions causing several deaths. At Suvarnabhumi Airport, PAD guards roughed up several journalists.

Until very late in the campaign, the PAD claimed to be acting in the tradition of non-violent protest. That was intellectually very dishonest. More recently the PAD leaders and backers have tried to claim that any violence committed was reactive, and blamed everything on the police. That was even more dishonest.

Violence is intrinsic to politics. When violence becomes part of the political culture, it hands power to those who are willing to use violence most ruthlessly. History is strewn with examples. In the past, Thailand's culture of protest was framed by a Buddhist appreciation of non-violence. The PAD |has taken a dangerous step away from that tradition.

[sbk]

It is possible to have a reasonable debate and a difference of opinion without resorting to name calling, abuse and flaming.

Keep this civil and keep the hyperbole to a minimum, thanks

[sriracha john]

Police and volunteers dive into Government House moat in search of contraband

The Deputy Commissioner-General of the Royal Thai Police today led divers in search of illicit items that may have been thrown into the Government House's surrounding moat.

Police Deputy Commissioner-General Police General Chongrak Chuthanont led a team of divers from the Royal Thai Navy and 5-6 volunteer divers from the Poh Teck Tung Foundation on an inspection of the Government House canal on suspicions that the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) may have deposited their illegal items into the water during their siege of the compound.

After searching most of the moat throughout the morning, the divers have yet to turn up any suspicious objects.

Police General Chongrak admitted that even if they were to find illegal objects, it would be hard to establish a case to any individual or even the PAD, but stated that nonetheless the items would be included in a case file against the protest group.

- ThaiNews / 2008-12-08

[Tigs]

Don't know about the damage, but PAD kindly left a few bombs and molotov cocktails behind when they left. They didn't forget to take money and valuables, weapons, ammo, tv's, cameras and computers though.

While I think the PAD was very wrong to have taken over the airport, still, I have friends who have been supporting the PAD and friends are friends regardless of how we may differ on political issues. One respected individual with the PAD has never given me wrong info on what was going on. For example, he let me know last Sunday afternoon that the PAD was willing to not interfere with the airlines day to day operations and it was now up to the AOT if they wanted to allow flights to take place. When I reported this in TV, of course I heard from the usual clueless, but then just two days later, PRIOR to the PAD announcing they would vacate the airport, cargo planes were flying and miraculously, less than 24 hours after the PAD announced they would vacate, other flights were taking place.

As it relates to this issue of explosives being left at Gov't House by the PAD, I was told on the day of the handover that while some outside of Gov't House were at the moment giving interviews that explosives were found, that as part of the PAD handover group he had not seen any. Of course, since I was not there I can't say 100% for sure, but just note as it relates to the explosives, not everyone sees it this way.

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

You guys have no idea of the damage that has been done. Operators like BA, Quantas, Emirates, etc, operate longhaul flights to Austrailia and land in BKK for replenishment. Thanks to PAD they have now found slots via Singapore and KL. It is very very unlikely they will come back to Thailand and the loss of revenue is huge. Why should they take the risk? I really give up banging my head against the wall with the PAD apologists, it is starting to hurt. For anyone doing a degree in Social Sciences I recommend using the PAD as great ammunition for a Thesis on mass hypnosis and group think.

[animatic]

Thaksin is corrupted and PPP is a bad political party, but if PAD gonna blame Thaksin/PPP for the damages they have done to the country, I would say they are cowards. Have some balls, you PAD-ers!

It's very refreshing to see a person newly posting on the News Clippings Forum who, after a review of their posting history, actually seems to be a genuine, honest-to-God, non-flaming, real, non-banished-and-returning-with-a-vengeful-trolling-intent poster. That is something, even if that someone currently possesses an opposing view, that seems to be under assault the last few weeks here. The forum, in reality, thrives on that very opposition of views that is genuinely coming from people posting honestly. It starves when it is inundated with fakers, trollers, and flamers who post dishonestly.

So, with that in mind... welcome aboard, SoMeOnEnUlL. The board needs more posters like you.

Now then, regarding Thaksin and PAD, SoMeOnEnUlL.

I tend to look at them more as pioneers rather than cowards along the lines of the People Power movement in the Philippines that ousted Marcos.

Was People Power (the Philippines original one, not the contemptible, disgraced, and banned Thai PPP one) completely without a few bad eggs? No. Did People Power make mistakes that in retrospect, on the whole, were superseded by their achievements? Yes. Were they successful in ousting a 20 plus year ruling despot? Yes.

Now then, supplant PAD for People Power in those same questions and the answer comes back the same. The only minor difference simply being the addition of the word "planned" preceding "20 plus year ruling despot."

The crucial key for PAD and Thailand and its populace now is to not follow the mistakes made in the Philippines subsequent to that country relieving itself of of its aberration.

Opportunity for Thailand, in the form of a first-ever criminal conviction and prison sentence of an indicted former Prime Minister, is knocking.

That needs to actually transpire to its ultimate completion if Thailand is not going to repeat the tediously slow, and definitely pot-hole-filled road of, what still is, ultimately, an improvement in the Philippines. The Philippines missed out on the benefits of this seeing through to ultimate completion when it was deprived of incarcerating Marcos and I think that played a sizable role in the chaotic, but steady progress it has made in the intervening years. If PAD can see this through to the end, I'm hopeful that Thailand can reap the benefits of seeing this task to its successful completion.

Thanks for the welcoming, john. I've been on this forum for long, actually, I just didn't come to new section before.

I know what you are saying. I always tried to listen to the both sides of stories. I wasn't saying the PAD don't have good intentions. Maybe they are doing a big favor to the people of Thailand. And, maybe not. That I do not know much. What I do know is that seizing the International Airport and Government House was very very bad for the Country and its people. The damage is incalculable. IF PAD really was doing it just to put an end to corrupted Government, I would say it was a bad move. I think they just put themselves in jeopardy, and the Country, too.

But, some PAD fellas were trying to forget that and wanted to blame others. I didn't want to use the word coward above. All I was saying is that they have to take some responsibility as a man. There always are consequences for every action made. One can't run away from it.

Ditto welcome to another real, clear and thoughful poster.

Whether I agree with you partly totaly or not at all,

you seem real not shill or clueless torublemaker,

and so are most welcome.

[animatic]

Read your history books of 1973, 76 and myriad other bloody events in Thai history if you can't read the writing on the wall now.

Thumbs up!

Very well observed!

How about an genuinely independent appraisal?

could both of you recommended me one, or two, three of those history books on 1973 and 1976.

what chamlong was doing during this years?

plachon, Samuian, why don't name the books you are reading. you know, there is not one history but many histories. if i would know what you are reading that would help me to understand your opinion.

History is written by the winners,

and styles of hind sight change with the times.

Some times the surviving losers pop up in dispute and try a re-write.

See nationalistic Japanese or Samak and assorted skinheads.

So one must be clear to read MORE than one history book and also

understand the motivations of those recommending them.

And the motivations of those critical of them even more.

One thing missing in many readings of history is

keeping a open and comparative mindset.

[animatic]

Politics is violence by other means.

When actual deadly force is used against your use of words,

defensive reventments are called for even as they make

the speaker appear more martial in stance.

But better appearing martial than being dead or maimed.

Better to appear martial then be silenced, if silence means

the gross degradation of society as you see it.

If those choosing to silence you, use violence and fear mongering

to raise a rable, rather than coherent argument, then a martial

defensive stance may seem, a reasonable response

to unreasonable external abuse.

Edited December 8, 2008 by animatic

[LaoPo]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

You guys have no idea of the damage that has been done. Operators like BA, Quantas, Emirates, etc, operate longhaul flights to Austrailia and land in BKK for replenishment. Thanks to PAD they have now found slots via Singapore and KL. It is very very unlikely they will come back to Thailand and the loss of revenue is huge. Why should they take the risk? I really give up banging my head against the wall with the PAD apologists, it is starting to hurt. For anyone doing a degree in Social Sciences I recommend using the PAD as great ammunition for a Thesis on mass hypnosis and group think.

Well spoken Tigs !

The PAD, as well as their supporters, whether on this forum or brought in from the country side, blocking the airports, haven't a clue what kind of damage has been done.

But, they will find out very soon as the economy is in full speed..............down hill, worldwide. Thailand will be hit extremely hard but so many do not see it yet; they're only interested in their own voice(s) to be heard that they are correct and the others are not

In 2 - 3 months from now they will have no more time to discuss this idiotic PAD case, busy as they will be to survive, literally.

LaoPo

[permanent_disorder]

Read your history books of 1973, 76 and myriad other bloody events in Thai history if you can't read the writing on the wall now.

Thumbs up!

Very well observed!

How about an genuinely independent appraisal?

could both of you recommended me one, or two, three of those history books on 1973 and 1976.

what chamlong was doing during this years?

History is written by the winners, and styles of hind sight change with the times.

Some times the surviving losers pop up in dispute and try a re-write.See nationalistic Japanese or Samak and assorted skinheads. So one must be clear to read MORE than one history book and also understand the motivations of those recommending them. And the motivations of those critical of them even more. One thing missing in many readings of history is keeping a open and comparative mindset.

of course, think for yourself, read more than one book. in written histories there is a mainstream of thoughts, new thinkers, outsider, revisionists.

the two above are know for supporting obscure ideas thats why i asking them about "their books" but i doubt that both of them read anything.

i also doubt that we have that much members with a open and comparative mindset here on board in the TVforum. just take Professor Giles Ji Ungpakorn for example, year 2000 Samak filed libel lawsuit against Giles Ji Ungpakorn & October '76 democracy activists. the histories about the october 76 and different viewpoints have been the problem.

nowadays Giles is also outspoken about the tak bai killings, the old war on drug and warned immediately as PPP Interior minister Chalerm Yoobamrung declared a new war on drug..

but here on TV forum Giles Ji Ungpakorn have to face a lot of hate by TVmembers supporting the fascist PAD. he could called "blubbering idiot on steroids," or "paranoid communist" followed only by lies. that are only two recent example. the new nazi movement currently raised to power in bangkok is well known for their attemps to muzzle critics, journalists, the public media. and also here at TVforum hangs the mob around.

[sriracha john]

I've just had a thought, perhaps this 100 Million Baht is not for repairs at all, it's actually to build an entirely new Government House...... in Chiang Mai.

For that they can take some of the siphoned funds that was the Two point Four Billion Baht from the Pay Foreigners Fund that never got disbursed....

what started out as...

Foreign Affairs Minister to request for 1 Billion Baht budget to compensate stranded passengers

Foreign minister Sompong Amornwiwat will request the Cabinet for a budget of One Billion Baht to compensate stranded passengers affected by the airport closure.

- ThaiNews / 2008-12-02

and which was subsequently upped to 2.4 Billion Baht... and then subsequently the purported recipients were never adequately informed... and now it's too late for them...but not too late for the budgeters of the tax money to reap the windfall... Nice scam, PPP.

following article below...

Edited December 8, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Debts return with stranded Kiwis

More stranded Kiwis are finding their way home from Bangkok, many saddled with much bigger debts than they had planned for. But what they did not know was that they could have claimed part of that money back from the Thai Government.

Like thousands of other tourists, the women were unaware they could claim at least some money back from the Thai Government.

Under the scheme - part of a proposed 2.4 Billion Baht plan by Thailand's tourism ministry - they could have received subsidies of up to 2000 baht ($100) a day for their accommodation and food bills.

Details posted on the websites of the Thai Ministry of Tourism and Sport and the Thai Hotels Association state tourists who could prove their flights had been cancelled during the blockade - by showing their air tickets and passports - could get cover.

However, travellers needed to show beforehand that they were stranded in order to claim the allowance later.

"Thanks to Bangkok, it looks like I'll have nothing left to spend over Christmas after blowing out my credit card," said Mrs O'Brien.

"If they [Thais] were really genuine about the scheme, they would be doing far more to inform stranded tourists rather than just posting it on their website."

- The New Zealand Herald / 2008-12-09

[TAWP]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

Would you be so kind to define what 'international law' [sic] that defines and regulates the security of an international airport?

25 years as a pilot - with what airline?

[samgrowth]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

Would you be so kind to define what 'international law' [sic] that defines and regulates the security of an international airport?

25 years as a pilot - with what airline?

FAA

[FatherF]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

Would you be so kind to define what 'international law' [sic] that defines and regulates the security of an international airport?

25 years as a pilot - with what airline?

FAA

The FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) only has authority within the USA, just as the UK has the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority)

FF

[Tigs]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

Would you be so kind to define what 'international law' [sic] that defines and regulates the security of an international airport?

25 years as a pilot - with what airline?

FAA

OK Sam, if you wish to be pedantic, which is not required in this debate, OK, however, you are either interested, or if you are signing off FAA you are trying to be a smart a**e. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have the sneeking suspicion from your tone, that you are trying to be a smart a**e. If as you imply you work for the FAA, you know dam_n well what I am on about. And for FatherF, the FAA may well only have authority within the USA, however their requirements are passed on to all operators of all nations whose aircraft fly in to US airspace. If you do not comply with their requirements in terms of the standards to which you operate, or indeed the security measures which are adopted prior to flight then you don't go in to US airspace, or indeed European airspace. The fact that you must comply with their regulations prior to commencement of a flight from Thailand is somewhat important. They may not have the same standard of requirements in any given country, but if you operate aircraft to a nation with more stringent requirements, then that is what you operate to. So lets make this really simple for you Sam, just in case you really don't work for the FAA, and if you do, then your reply is shocking to say the least. AOT could not continue with business as normal, because the PAD had compromised security. Had there been a mishap or terrorist incident with an aircraft, say from the USA, then the s**t would have hit the fan, and Thailand would likely not be permitted to have aircraft leave for any US destination for a long time to come. It is an International problem that affected AOT, not a local Thai policy of 'manyanna, it'll be ok, just take off anyway.

Sam, as to what airline, it is none of your business on a public forum, neither is it the names of the Aviation Training Company's that I am also involved with. PM me and ask me some aviation questions if you like, and I will test your knowledge of FAR's.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Tigs

[TAWP]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

Would you be so kind to define what 'international law' [sic] that defines and regulates the security of an international airport?

25 years as a pilot - with what airline?

FAA

OK Sam, if you wish to be pedantic, which is not required in this debate, OK, however, you are either interested, or if you are signing off FAA you are trying to be a smart a**e. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have the sneeking suspicion from your tone, that you are trying to be a smart a**e. If as you imply you work for the FAA, you know dam_n well what I am on about. And for FatherF, the FAA may well only have authority within the USA, however their requirements are passed on to all operators of all nations whose aircraft fly in to US airspace. If you do not comply with their requirements in terms of the standards to which you operate, or indeed the security measures which are adopted prior to flight then you don't go in to US airspace, or indeed European airspace. The fact that you must comply with their regulations prior to commencement of a flight from Thailand is somewhat important. They may not have the same standard of requirements in any given country, but if you operate aircraft to a nation with more stringent requirements, then that is what you operate to. So lets make this really simple for you Sam, just in case you really don't work for the FAA, and if you do, then your reply is shocking to say the least. AOT could not continue with business as normal, because the PAD had compromised security. Had there been a mishap or terrorist incident with an aircraft, say from the USA, then the s**t would have hit the fan, and Thailand would likely not be permitted to have aircraft leave for any US destination for a long time to come. It is an International problem that affected AOT, not a local Thai policy of 'manyanna, it'll be ok, just take off anyway.

Sam, as to what airline, it is none of your business on a public forum, neither is it the names of the Aviation Training Company's that I am also involved with. PM me and ask me some aviation questions if you like, and I will test your knowledge of FAR's.

The pilots I know are skilled and intelligent individuals with high perception.

But you seemed to reply with a sarcastic tone to Sam while half your reply should have been aimed to me.

And 'manyanna' is Spanish, but you knew that.

And you still avoided to answer my question since you knew that your initial premise was wrong.

[FatherF]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

Would you be so kind to define what 'international law' [sic] that defines and regulates the security of an international airport?

25 years as a pilot - with what airline?

FAA

OK Sam, if you wish to be pedantic, which is not required in this debate, OK, however, you are either interested, or if you are signing off FAA you are trying to be a smart a**e. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have the sneeking suspicion from your tone, that you are trying to be a smart a**e. If as you imply you work for the FAA, you know dam_n well what I am on about. And for FatherF, the FAA may well only have authority within the USA, however their requirements are passed on to all operators of all nations whose aircraft fly in to US airspace. If you do not comply with their requirements in terms of the standards to which you operate, or indeed the security measures which are adopted prior to flight then you don't go in to US airspace, or indeed European airspace. The fact that you must comply with their regulations prior to commencement of a flight from Thailand is somewhat important. They may not have the same standard of requirements in any given country, but if you operate aircraft to a nation with more stringent requirements, then that is what you operate to. So lets make this really simple for you Sam, just in case you really don't work for the FAA, and if you do, then your reply is shocking to say the least. AOT could not continue with business as normal, because the PAD had compromised security. Had there been a mishap or terrorist incident with an aircraft, say from the USA, then the s**t would have hit the fan, and Thailand would likely not be permitted to have aircraft leave for any US destination for a long time to come. It is an International problem that affected AOT, not a local Thai policy of 'manyanna, it'll be ok, just take off anyway.

Sam, as to what airline, it is none of your business on a public forum, neither is it the names of the Aviation Training Company's that I am also involved with. PM me and ask me some aviation questions if you like, and I will test your knowledge of FAR's.

Tigs, I am suprised by your response,

The FAA,CAA etc etc, these rules & regulations apply to the Aircraft itself, "In the United States, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), governs applied aspects of flight. In the international realm, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) provide general rules and mediates international concerns to an extent regarding aviation law. The ICAO is a specialized agency of the United Nations." source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_law.

From what i can assertain, Airports themselves are usually run as private entities, eg BAA (British Airports Authority) is actually a private company However, i believe that there is a volantary agreement to maintain security levels etc.

FF

[hudriwudri]

Saw it on Thai PBS news last night: chairs and sofas destroyed by knife cuts in nice X shape, computers busted etc.

Outside the building it looked a trash dump.

I don't care how much it will cost to repair, it was idiot's work.

you mean like that?

[Tigs]

Old Man River

As a Pilot of 25 years and definitely not one of the 'Clueless', I can honestly say that you are a very misguided individual. If you think that AOT could have operated flights as normal, I can only assume that you take illegal substances. The thought that they could go about business as normal is just ludicrous. AOT are bound by International Law (not Thai law) to ensure that their premises operates to a level of security defined by law. Do you think for one moment that any international carrier would have gone in or out with no security at Swampy? The PAD protestors infiltrated the Air Traffic Control for gods sake. They were on the runway!!! Whilst friends are friends i suggest you consider what you are being told. The earth is flat.....honest it really is!!! The flights did not occur miraculously, they were aircraft OUTGOING, from operators who were losing millions whilst they were sat on the ground. The cargo was not incoming.

Would you be so kind to define what 'international law' [sic] that defines and regulates the security of an international airport?

25 years as a pilot - with what airline?

FAA

OK Sam, if you wish to be pedantic, which is not required in this debate, OK, however, you are either interested, or if you are signing off FAA you are trying to be a smart a**e. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have the sneeking suspicion from your tone, that you are trying to be a smart a**e. If as you imply you work for the FAA, you know dam_n well what I am on about. And for FatherF, the FAA may well only have authority within the USA, however their requirements are passed on to all operators of all nations whose aircraft fly in to US airspace. If you do not comply with their requirements in terms of the standards to which you operate, or indeed the security measures which are adopted prior to flight then you don't go in to US airspace, or indeed European airspace. The fact that you must comply with their regulations prior to commencement of a flight from Thailand is somewhat important. They may not have the same standard of requirements in any given country, but if you operate aircraft to a nation with more stringent requirements, then that is what you operate to. So lets make this really simple for you Sam, just in case you really don't work for the FAA, and if you do, then your reply is shocking to say the least. AOT could not continue with business as normal, because the PAD had compromised security. Had there been a mishap or terrorist incident with an aircraft, say from the USA, then the s**t would have hit the fan, and Thailand would likely not be permitted to have aircraft leave for any US destination for a long time to come. It is an International problem that affected AOT, not a local Thai policy of 'manyanna, it'll be ok, just take off anyway.

Sam, as to what airline, it is none of your business on a public forum, neither is it the names of the Aviation Training Company's that I am also involved with. PM me and ask me some aviation questions if you like, and I will test your knowledge of FAR's.

The pilots I know are skilled and intelligent individuals with high perception.

But you seemed to reply with a sarcastic tone to Sam while half your reply should have been aimed to me.

And 'manyanna' is Spanish, but you knew that.

And you still avoided to answer my question since you knew that your initial premise was wrong.

TAWP

You are absolutely correct. A very busy day today and I did not even see your input, thought it was all Sam, there's Human Factors for you eh! (my apologies Sam) so yes the brunt of my sarcasm should be/was definitely aimed at you.

skilled and intelligent individuals with high perception

. Now how do you measure my skill here? and measurement of perception would be equally difficult with such limited communication. As for intelligence, wasn't sarcasm the highest form of wit? You would do well to remember the definition of effective communications in CRM terms 'When the message received is understood as the sender intended'. A misinterpretation on my part is your failing isn't it?

As stated in my reply, if you wish to be pedantic, then to search for an 'international law' would prove fruitless, however, as stated, and as you must clearly understand, international standards are in place. If we wish to get in to a fight over aviation speak then lets meet up on PPRuNe, as it would be wholly appropriate there, and doubtless would avoid boring non aviators here. FatherF, please do not be surprised. Again if we are going to go in to detail, as with most things in Aviation, the onus is on the operator to comply with regulations, in order to do that, everyone in the operators supply chain must comply with the standard, including the appropriate airport. If an airport does not comply, then the operator is held at fault for breeching the standard. I know this, you know this, and in the context of the argument on this thread, why are we discussing this detail here? The fact is that for reasons various in aviation, AOT could not continue to operate 'business as usual' because PAD had compromised security.

FatherF

As far as ICAO is concerned, they have a generic set of rules/laws which must be complied with, unless a local authority imposes a more stringent regulation (very often the case with the FAA and CAA's), in which case that must be applied. The FAA/CAA's do not just have regulations for the aircraft! Are you an aviator? as that is a very surprising comment.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Tigs

[FatherF]

FatherF

As far as ICAO is concerned, they have a generic set of rules/laws which must be complied with, unless a local authority imposes a more stringent regulation (very often the case with the FAA and CAA's), in which case that must be applied. The FAA/CAA's do not just have regulations for the aircraft! Are you an aviator? as that is a very surprising comment.

My only point was that it was not the FAA who defined international law regarding airports all around the world, as you stated/implied in one of your previous posts!

FF

[SoMeOnEnUlL]

I think "AOT shut down the Air-Port and PAD's innocent" statement would be a joke and lame excuse.

[Tigs]

FatherF

As far as ICAO is concerned, they have a generic set of rules/laws which must be complied with, unless a local authority imposes a more stringent regulation (very often the case with the FAA and CAA's), in which case that must be applied. The FAA/CAA's do not just have regulations for the aircraft! Are you an aviator? as that is a very surprising comment.

My only point was that it was not the FAA who defined international law regarding airports all around the world, as you stated/implied in one of your previous posts!

FF

FF

Where did I ever imply that?? It was not mentioned until Samgrowth mentioned it.

[LaoPo]

Saw it on Thai PBS news last night: chairs and sofas destroyed by knife cuts in nice X shape, computers busted etc.

Outside the building it looked a trash dump.

I don't care how much it will cost to repair, it was idiot's work.

you mean like that?

where these photos published on this thread before ?

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topi...3/P7288033.html

UNBELIEVABLE and DISGUSTING......peaceful PAD demonstrators ?

Even animals wouldn't make such a mess and destroy belongings which isn't theirs.

Where are the pro-PAD members on this forum, defending this useless mess and destruction ?

Sondhi Limthongkul and his guards...what a peaceful image; worth publishing in the next promotion brochure of the Tourism Authority of Thailand - TAT.

...he certainly must have been reading his European history books...looking at the outfits....

LaoPo

[Nampeung]

Saw it on Thai PBS news last night: chairs and sofas destroyed by knife cuts in nice X shape, computers busted etc.

Outside the building it looked a trash dump.

I don't care how much it will cost to repair, it was idiot's work.

you mean like that?

where these photos published on this thread before ?

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topi...3/P7288033.html

UNBELIEVABLE and DISGUSTING......peaceful PAD demonstrators ?

Even animals wouldn't make such a mess and destroy belongings which isn't theirs.

Where are the pro-PAD members on this forum, defending this useless mess and destruction ?

Sondhi Limthongkul and his guards...what a peaceful image; worth publishing in the next promotion brochure of the Tourism Authority of Thailand - TAT.

...he certainly must have been reading his European history books...looking at the outfits....

LaoPo

Sometimes in dictatorships it is necessary for a bit of disruption to make a point and change things. At least it was only paperwork and office facilities that were harmed by PAD. I don't agree with their aggressive frontline guards but believe the PAD are right and, unfortuately, the way dictatorships are overthrown involves a certain amount of disruption to 'normal' society.

Stripped bare of media and all the other pundits who want to chip in their ideas, this had to happen for Thailand to progress

[Nampeung]

Perm Disorder I suggest you go home and study some more mate and all the other anti PAD folks. I didn't say I was totally pro PAD but I do know a lot about the history of Thai politics and following the PAD is not 'Nazi propaganda'

[Bagwan]

I'd like to hear what a team of independent insurance assessors have to say about the costs of replacements and repairs.

From my experience of such people they'd have the bill down to about 20 cents in no time at all.

[samgrowth]

The previous post is why some posters are calling for a basic aptitude test to precede ones vote in a general election. If you fail your vote will be void and null.

Every voters should go through lie detector test too. Quick, 100 Billion baht set aside to buy these equipments. Maybe Shin corp can supply them.

[FatherF]

FatherF

As far as ICAO is concerned, they have a generic set of rules/laws which must be complied with, unless a local authority imposes a more stringent regulation (very often the case with the FAA and CAA's), in which case that must be applied. The FAA/CAA's do not just have regulations for the aircraft! Are you an aviator? as that is a very surprising comment.

My only point was that it was not the FAA who defined international law regarding airports all around the world, as you stated/implied in one of your previous posts!

FF

FF

Where did I ever imply that?? It was not mentioned until Samgrowth mentioned it.

Mu humble appologies, it was not you that said it, it was another poster that was quoting something else you had said, and i mistook it as a quote of yours!

FF