Gen. Anupong suggests House dissolution

[JoeInSurin]

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

There is always the exception but is not as easy here. I know several girls in the village that are gifted and excellant students that can not afford the 40,000 baht (which is illegal to charge) fee to get into the best school here. Their potential will not be reached. In the USA all kids get the same chance regardless on financial status.

In theory yes,

in reality that is utter <deleted>!.

I agree it is not the same chance that I had stated but the chance is better than in Thailand.

[jdinasia]

No Joe there are not scholarships available 'at all schools' and if you are not in a public school's cachtment area you are SOL as well. I was not in the catchment are for the very best school in my town and nothing short of my parents moving to a far more expensive house would have gotten me into it I still managed to garner the second highest amount of scholarships EVER (at that time) from the less equal school that I attended. In fact even at the age of 39 I came to Thailand on a study grant.scholarship Most if not all universities have scholarships most if not all public schools below the Uni level do NOT -- again in the USA--.

Joe -- when the discussion is about "the elite" in Thailand it is both socio AND economic status and does not include the average teacher.

I welcome you to look up elitism and elite in sociological terms

Joe apparently you think Thailand should be like the USA but are unaware of what the USA is really like! Poverty is there and it is a serious issue! While there are GREAT stories of people overcoming poverty there, there are also the same stories here! I will grant that the education system here need to be made TRULY universal with the government funding lunches and uniforms as well but even when that happens poverty will still prevent some of even the brightest from finishing school. Not too long ago there was a great story about a hilltribe girl's victory in getting admitted to Chula! (She didn't have a Thai ID and had not been able to attend a Thai public school ever!)

There isn't enough money in the government budget to eliminate poverty ... probably not to even make a serious dent in it! I wish the Demos would make a simple campaign promise or two in the soon to be held elections. 1) continue and improve the universal healthcare scheme ... and 2) make universal education to grade 12 compulsory and include in each school budget uniforms and lunch --- and make REAL jail terms for extorting extra fees.

Elite

Small group of people that posses disproportionally large amounts of scarce sources of influence over political decision-making: money, social prestige, political power, etc...

source http://socialsciencedictionary.org/index.php?title=Elite

Your belief in the Thaksin populism isn't founded in real help for the communities ... it was just a dream of help that hurt more than it ever helped

Edited November 26, 2008 by jdinasia

[JoeInSurin]

No Joe there are not scholarships available 'at all schools' and if you are not in a public school's cachtment area you are SOL as well. I was not in the catchment are for the very best school in my town and nothing short of my parents moving to a far more expensive house would have gotten me into it I still managed to garner the second highest amount of scholarships EVER (at that time) from the less equal school that I attended. In fact even at the age of 39 I came to Thailand on a study grant.scholarship Most if not all universities have scholarships most if not all public schools below the Uni level do NOT -- again in the USA--.

Joe -- when the discussion is about "the elite" in Thailand it is both socio AND economic status and does not include the average teacher.

I welcome you to look up elitism and elite in sociological terms

Joe apparently you think Thailand should be like the USA but are unaware of what the USA is really like! Poverty is there and it is a serious issue! While there are GREAT stories of people overcoming poverty there, there are also the same stories here! I will grant that the education system here need to be made TRULY universal with the government funding lunches and uniforms as well but even when that happens poverty will still prevent some of even the brightest from finishing school. Not too long ago there was a great story about a hilltribe girl's victory in getting admitted to Chula! (She didn't have a Thai ID and had not been able to attend a Thai public school ever!)

There isn't enough money in the government budget to eliminate poverty ... probably not to even make a serious dent in it! I wish the Demos would make a simple campaign promise or two in the soon to be held elections. 1) continue and improve the universal healthcare scheme ... and 2) make universal education to grade 12 compulsory and include in each school budget uniforms and lunch --- and make REAL jail terms for extorting extra fees.

Elite

Small group of people that posses disproportionally large amounts of scarce sources of influence over political decision-making: money, social prestige, political power, etc...

source http://socialsciencedictionary.org/index.php?title=Elite

Your belief in the Thaksin populism isn't founded in real help for the communities ... it was just a dream of help that hurt more than it ever helped

I hate Taksin. Why do people think that if you are not for the PAD mob you are for Taksin?? I stated that untill there is more equality in Thailand there will be more uneducated people subject to vote buying. Just because you are for PAD and against democracy doesn't mean I think you support North Korea.

Edited November 26, 2008 by JoeInSurin

[groovyc]

deleted

[jdinasia]

Joe --- I clearly said "Thaksin populism" ... look up the word populism

and you are making a serious mistake about me being against democracy, I voted! I just think it doesn't exist here and hasn't since Thaksin demolished the checks and balances The fact that a convicted criminal could get his brother-in-law appointed to the PM position should show you that!

[animatic]

No Joe there are not scholarships available 'at all schools' and if you are not in a public school's cachtment area you are SOL as well. I was not in the catchment are for the very best school in my town and nothing short of my parents moving to a far more expensive house would have gotten me into it I still managed to garner the second highest amount of scholarships EVER (at that time) from the less equal school that I attended. In fact even at the age of 39 I came to Thailand on a study grant.scholarship Most if not all universities have scholarships most if not all public schools below the Uni level do NOT -- again in the USA--.

Joe -- when the discussion is about "the elite" in Thailand it is both socio AND economic status and does not include the average teacher.

I welcome you to look up elitism and elite in sociological terms

Joe apparently you think Thailand should be like the USA but are unaware of what the USA is really like! Poverty is there and it is a serious issue! While there are GREAT stories of people overcoming poverty there, there are also the same stories here! I will grant that the education system here need to be made TRULY universal with the government funding lunches and uniforms as well but even when that happens poverty will still prevent some of even the brightest from finishing school. Not too long ago there was a great story about a hilltribe girl's victory in getting admitted to Chula! (She didn't have a Thai ID and had not been able to attend a Thai public school ever!)

There isn't enough money in the government budget to eliminate poverty ... probably not to even make a serious dent in it! I wish the Demos would make a simple campaign promise or two in the soon to be held elections. 1) continue and improve the universal healthcare scheme ... and 2) make universal education to grade 12 compulsory and include in each school budget uniforms and lunch --- and make REAL jail terms for extorting extra fees.

Elite

Small group of people that posses disproportionally large amounts of scarce sources of influence over political decision-making: money, social prestige, political power, etc...

source http://socialsciencedictionary.org/index.php?title=Elite

Your belief in the Thaksin populism isn't founded in real help for the communities ... it was just a dream of help that hurt more than it ever helped

I hate Taksin. Why do people think that if you are not for the PAD mob you are for Taksin?? I stated that untill there is more equality in Thailand there will be more uneducated people subject to vote buying. Just because you are for PAD and against democracy doesn't mean I think you support North Korea.

JD yes quite so, your family has the cash to buy the right home you get the good school.

Here you pay tea money there you pay by tax rate on your home and land.

Many can't afford the tea money because of the high cost of uniforms too.

I THINK, JUST DITCH THE STUPID UNIFORMS COMPLETELY!

It is solely pseudo-militaristic culture building. Uniting multiple cultures,

into ONE THAI PEOPLE with school indoctrination. New, little compliant citizens lined up

without individuality, not tribal identies, now group loyaties except to the THAILAND concept.

And thus, in theory, more compliant spokes in the nationalism. A page from the soviet or facist book.

They've built the country, 3-4 generations over, time to drop this expensive bullshit.

A waste of parents money.

Spend it on books and school materials and teachers.

Raise kids to think and build things with their own ideas.

Raise critical thinkers.

Raise a nation by it's intelligence!

[JoeInSurin]

Joe --- I clearly said "Thaksin populism" ... look up the word populism

and you are making a serious mistake about me being against democracy, I voted! I just think it doesn't exist here and hasn't since Thaksin demolished the checks and balances The fact that a convicted criminal could get his brother-in-law appointed to the PM position should show you that!

The Bin Ladens are a very respected construction company that Bush and the US government have ties with. Their son is a terrorist that needs to be shot. Just because one is related to the other does not

make them the same. They are innocent untill proven guilty. If Obama's brother does something should he have a mob take over the US government buildings and National Airport and demand his resignation?? This should show you you have no legitimate argument.

[jdinasia]

Oh please .. you are just silly sometimes Joe! Clearly Thaksin's presence on a phone in interview on a state controlled broadcaster .. at a rally in a state owned stadium suggests differently.

and the Bin Ladens? ... gads you are reaching!

did you look up 'populism?' do you have any more proof of loans to teachers that are beyond the ability to be repaid? did you look up 'elite' in a sociology dictionary?

Ani --- actually uniforms are the great class barrier breaker. No rich kids in 6000 baht sneakers lording it over the poor kids in the 80 baht sneakers. If the government provides ALL the school clothes then it is an egalitarian act.

Edited November 26, 2008 by jdinasia

[who]

Think!

Without taking sides. The General is playing musical chairs in combination to a fine Chess game.

Very astute. Very, very smart. Read betwwen the lines instead of taking sides, you'll learn more.

Think......and start creating backup plans to living in a place that is sure...to get way too interesting.

We have the privilage of seeing the most interesting chapter in Thai history starting.

Not good, not entirely bad, It is what is is.

.

------------It would seem that you know little of Thai history.

.

[hgma]

hear hear

if they(thais) dont watch out it soon be the land of CRIES

what a mess...........

suggesting, hinting, recommending. . . .anupong usually comes across as the most sensible person around in these palavers so i'd hope that somchai would be paying attention.

[permanent_disorder]

It is solely pseudo-militaristic culture building. Uniting multiple cultures,

into ONE THAI PEOPLE with school indoctrination. New, little compliant citizens lined up

without individuality, not tribal identies, now group loyaties except to the THAILAND concept.

And thus, in theory, more compliant spokes in the nationalism. A page from the soviet or facist book.

They've built the country, 3-4 generations over, time to drop this expensive bullshit.

A waste of parents money.

Spend it on books and school materials and teachers.

Raise kids to think and build things with their own ideas.

Raise critical thinkers.

Raise a nation by it's intelligence!

wow, you have good points here, but how you want achieve it?

and because the way education should be organised was before in discussion between us. remember? part of "new education" concept of "new politics" vision of the PAD cult is that it should be a government or state controlled business to start to teach even only 2-3 years old kids what the government think are the "moral values and ethics".

"People's Alliance for Democracy leader Pipob Thongchai calls for a state-sponsored early childhood development program to help instill morals and ethics in children who are younger than three years old.

Pipob Thongchai says he believes an official program is needed to develop the basic moral values and ethics in young children. As part of the PAD’s proposal for new politics, Pipob believes education plays a key role in producing moral and honest adults."

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/toc/ViewData...?DataID=1009642

but under 3 years old are much to young for such 'education' that is "poisonous pedagogy". they can only be brainwashed.

cmsally gave us here a interesting report of the observation of PAD propaganda methods and how they using innocent kids on stage. quote: "Just as one example of the many strange things they do; one night on ASTV they had a child of about 8-10yrs on the stage, basically slating the opposition in their, as always, not so polite language. The child had obviously been given the script. I was at a Thai friends house with a friend of mine from abroad, visiting. The Thais there were obviously embarrassed"

this post of sally finally convinced me to call PAD scum and nothing else. and there you have your education like a la "page from the soviet or facist book."

i see your are still interested on that education topic. (me as well, partly because as a kid i spend my schooldays in a totalitaristic state)

so that here might be also interessting for you. since you are so ouspoken for 'critical thinkers', 'raise kids to think' and are also critical against too strong nationalism.

have a look here another fine piece of PAD cult propaganda, the stage play for The Final Battle

“Cookie”, 11-years-old daughter of the dead hero talks about her dad (now on Youtube)

the youtube video with 11 years old nong Cookie on the PAD stage. that poor kids had just lost her daddy the day before in one bomb blast at the PAD camp. and now she must perform there on stage.

follow the link and you will get to the offical Young Pad webpage. and to that blog entry. there you can read a transcription/translation into english what she is talking about. the yound PAD did a good job. the key slogans he highlighted in bold.

here just a short extract:

"[02:19] Cookie: Yes, I told him.. but my dad told me

to come for the nation..

...

MC: In your opinion.. your dad did for the country.. what do you have to say to the

police, government?.. to catch whoever did this?… What do you want to say to

the prime minister, Somchai Wongsawat?

[03:36] Cookie: I want to say.. I wish him dead like my dad….

...

MC: What did your dad ever tell you? What did he wish for?.. Get educated, being a good kid?

[07:07] Cookie: He wants me to rescue the nation instead of him, and finish my education

MC: And you want to rescue the nation for him?

Cookie: If I have grown up enough, I will come.

[Applausing]

...

MC: Cookie, what do you want to say to fellow people?

[08:24] Cookie: My mom left a message.. on 23rd.. please come… come for my dad… "

http://pad.vfly.net/showcase/854/cookie-th...tube-video-clip

here the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBJJCMFzFjw&eurl

i don't think that is right to bring there any kids on stage or even to those demonstration. and of course not such a victim who just lost her dad the day before. and all only for propraganda,

to tell the people to come to the Final Battle.

i be lost for words here.

what is your opinion, animatic? being such a avid PAD apologists, accept nearly everything from from them without criticism or doubt.

but i guess you idea of a better education system, like that what you have written above, you will you not get with the PAD.

but how ironical, what you pointetd out as the principles should be droped you will get with the PAD, those hypocritical hyper moralistic and nationalistic cult, in a hard core version.

you even get your uniform back, now a yellow shirt. not a uniform that separates boys from girls, or kids from the older people. no, one for all.

in the PAD movement you are supposed to give up your individuality and come to unity with the others in the name for the nation.

metaphorically speaking is like all people together become one unit, one organism, or work so perfect like ant in a ant state together.

or maybe organism isd the wrong word. more only like part of a machine, you have only to rattle with your rattle and be the mass. (or the mob, how it's called from outsiders)

just look Chamlongs odd "school of leadership". aor all that BS from him and the PAD, they don't want go into politics, they only sacrify themself and all their work and endeavours are in the name of the nation and for the nation. thats why they think of themself to be above the law. the do it for the nation, thats why they are also the good people or imagine themself as The People. nationalistic blah blah, just like you said. and ' pseudo-militaristic culture building', with obey and follow the leader, with prohibition, para militariy units like the PAD Guard, the big enemy the have to fight, and all the finals and last battles they fight. and that all of them, a total war, a volksturm on a druggy delusion of almightiness.

to run such a "happy" state, like it is promised to come to us under "New Politics", you need to brainwash the people. you need the PAD style "new education". start nationalistic propaganda and other BS in early school days.

but like a few other PAD apologists have been also pointed it out, in the question about the political and society stystem here, we must be careful and prevent to judge from an eurocentristic view. our christian or aristotelian values are western values, same our idea of politics or logic or love, developed overin 2000+ years. starts with philosophy of the old greeks. (even if you have never been to church, if you grow up in europe or the west your are influenced by 2000 years christianity.) nd soo on, you know. but who knows if our values are a 'universal grammar' or the only and the right way. in asia evolved an other school of think, with other concepts, other values. lots of cultural differences and the reason why we sometimes(/often/ all the time) misunderstand each other. and misintepret what we oberve and believe to see. our awareness depends also on the language we are speaking. and a term like "individual" is a western idea, born in the Age of Enlightenment. so is it maybe the (your) critical thinker. isn't it the socratic method? bso what you call "Uniting into ONE THAI PEOPLE" maybe fits here better?

but i also think of it like you described it. being more individualistic and independend in mind is a great gift. but you will not get it with PAD.

there are additional points in the education issues i have with the PAD ideology. their 'new economics' based on E.F. Schumachers "Buddhist economics" comes of course also with a concept of education. and same with the ecological "back to the nature" is it also a back to the basic, the roots, to be sufficient. he want turn back the impact mankind has on mother nature. it's localism, focussed on the community that surrounds you. it's a antiglobalisation concept. travelling and trade 8like exports) over long distances are not necessary. not good in environmental terms and there is no need for a so called boarder or iniversal education. per example: a child of a mountain farmer in himalaya doesn't have to learn english. and a foreign teacher would just arouse desire of immoral consumer goods.leads to consumerism. education have to be only appropriate. the fisher mans son, should learn about the see and how to catch fish, he don't need knowledge about einstein. that back to the basic etc. from a enviromental point of view - it's 100% correct. and one should try to live as much as possible modest. i see that concept more like a proposal and reminder do live with mother nature in mind. but when those in power and charge try to impose it as the state ideology everyone have to obey and lot's of indoctrination... and such localism can also leads to isolation (albania 45-90, north korea) and PAD misuse the idea behind also for their nationalistic and xenophobic diatribe.

education and schools under PAD aka "new politics" could became very bizarre.

[marshbags]

The Nation, Thu, November 27, 2008 : Last updated 6:38 hours

BURNING ISSUES

Anupong, man in the middle, holds the trump card

By Avudh Panananda

The People's Alliance for Democracy has stooped to a nasty level in laying siege to Suvarnabhumi Airport in its efforts to unseat the Somchai Wongsawat government.

Although it has given the PAD undivided attention and a chokehold to topple Prime Minister Somchai, the airport seizure is unpopular and inflicts untold damage on the country.

After PAD-led protesters took control of the airport at 9.00 pm on Tuesday night, frantic negotiations have been inconclusive.

The government is applying strong pressure on Army chief General Anupong Paochinda to intervene and clear protesters from the airport. It wants to invoke the security law empowering Anupong to take charge of the crowd dispersal.

After his emissaries failed to sway Anupong, Somchai has reportedly requested a meeting with the general upon his return from the Apec Summit in Peru.

The PAD too wants Anupong to intervene but for an entirely different reason. It is trying to convince him to either stage a coup or to throw his support to the opposition movement.

The government and the PAD both see Anupong as holding the trump card in deciding the outcome of their fight.

Somchai's return was scheduled for about 5.00 pm last night. Three hours before, Anupong braced for his crucial talks by chairing a high-level meeting with academics and civil servants.

As the prime minister's plane was about to touch down at the air force base, Anupong held a press conference to outline his dual proposal for the government to dissolve the House and for the PAD to halt its protests completely.

A snap election would allow a fresh start for the country and the rival camps would have an opportunity to move beyond their animosity.

In the event the government decides to cling to office, it will likely face a boycott in the form of civil disobedience by the bureaucrats. And the PAD will likewise be punished by social sanctions if it refuses to end its opposition movement.

Anupong has made it clear he would not side with either rival camp. And it goes without saying he will not intervene in the airport seizure. This is in line with his steadfast refusal to get involved to favour the government. His stand means that Somchai is being left alone to decide his fate and the survival of his government.

It is understandable Somchai might have felt being let down by his Army chief. The prime minister flew direct to Chiang Mai without disembarking his plane at the capital. He needs time and privacy to map out his response.

Since Tuesday night, the People Power Party has been working hard to replace Anupong. But it is making no headway. There is no shortage of ambitious generals willing to serve as a government lackey. But the crucial question is whether it is possible to replace Anupong's leadership and redirect the Army at short notice.

This leads to a dire scenario for Somchai. He may have no choice but to step down either by resigning or calling a snap election.

If the prime minister decides to cling to office regardless of the consequences, then it is possible the Democrats will resign their House seats en masse in order to force a House dissolution.

The ruling party is in a dilemma. It has a limited pool of candidates to succeed Somchai. Its invincibility at the elections has been steadily declining in a number of constituencies in the lower North and the Central Region.

It must face so many uncertainties relating to the party dissolution case if a snap election is called at this juncture. Candidates would need to be picked for the People Power banner and the spare party of Puea Thai. This would certainly confuse voters.

Somchai and his People Power Party are obligated to play a high stake game to ensure survival as Anupong has shown his trump card which can change the face of Thai politics.

Unquote

I suspect that this illegally elected government who came to power via blatant vote buying will soon be no more as they ( should ) be banned for their actions which are against the constitution and electoral laws

marshbags

Edited November 27, 2008 by marshbags

[animatic]

Ani --- actually uniforms are the great class barrier breaker. No rich kids in 6000 baht sneakers lording it over the poor kids in the 80 baht sneakers. If the government provides ALL the school clothes then it is an egalitarian act.

This I can agree with,

up to the point of those folks who CAN'T AFFORD THE CLOTHES...

so those children aren't allowed to go to school.

Even on Samui there are workers who's kids need the monks to come by

and donate used uniforms so they can go.

But you can see the tea money issue cleanly erases that gain.

Because they just raise a financial barrier to keep the poor kids away from their rich kids.

It is at the heart of more the half the soap operas on tv, rich kid in love with poor kid,

genders exchanable, and the family bitchiness that ensues. Sometimes the couple wins,

some times class ideologies wins.

So we see groups of miso and hiso human digits, clanned together,

and loso human digits and the so poor that can't afford education at all.

Leave the uniforms for scouting days. Which are all but manditory any way.

Edited November 27, 2008 by animatic

[animatic]

So you say teaching very young children moral behavior is indoctrination..

Well what is moral and morals?

Oh, and I was NOT referring to PAD thought in any way with my discussion,

you re-injected that. And I won't continue that tangent.

mor⋅al –adjective

1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong;

ethical: moral attitudes.

2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.

3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.

4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.

5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral ): a moral man.

6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.

7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.

8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.

–noun

9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.

10. the embodiment or type of something.

11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.

Origin: 1300–50; ME < L mōrālis, equiv. to mōr- (s. of mōs) usage, custom + -ālis -al 1

Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

If you can find reason to say this is a bad thing for parents to instruct their children in,

you will have lost all credible arguing position.

Publishing books to instruct young mothers into how to best give moral instruction,

to their toddlers is a ground up approach to raising responsable adults.

Assuming this is some form of brain washing is disingenuous at best.

It IS teaching, and being consistent from their earliest learning stages IS good.

EVERY learning experience builds from the one before it,

from recognizing mommy's face to voting for a leader, and observing how he leads,

one of the highest expressions of learned response

[aircut]

Military and police should be working on keeping the peace of the country. when a general tells the government to step down and does not do anything to secure strategic places like parliament building and international airport, its a silent coup. get the PAD out of the parliament buildings, airports and force them to obey law and order. have the authorities exercise their power to restore order. PAD should use democratic ways if they fight for democracy.

also, very wired that in the general 4 points of advise, the idea that PAD should get out of the airport is the last point. how come? this should be the first point.

[permanent_disorder]

I suspect that this illegally elected government who came to power via blatant vote buying will soon be no more as they ( should ) be banned for their actions which are against the constitution and electoral laws

marshbags

the election was illegal?

and according to the vote buying issue, that got so often mentioned, is there somewhere all clear in one single overwiev, compact explained, like the map of thailand,, with the different provinces, and a chart that shows the percent people got. and who was cheating and what was the evidence. did somethink like this exist?

i mean it's get repeated all the time, the government is illegal, the election is illegal and so on. so,eone must have draw such a compressive and convincing chart, table graphic chart. you know what i mean.

and is there a court ruling that says that the election was illegal? the article your are quoting says nothing about those points.

and banned for what action which is against the constitution? that they don't step back because a group af ant democratic maniac demand that? that is hardly unconstitutional.

on the funny side you speak of "will soon be no more" that is the PAD promising since month. with all their different final and last wars, battles and victories. someone must tell them to go home.

and what you suggest fir the PAD, for their illegal activities?

[animatic]

Military and police should be working on keeping the peace of the country. when a general tells the government to step down and does not do anything to secure strategic places like parliament building and international airport, its a silent coup. get the PAD out of the parliament buildings, airports and force them to obey law and order. have the authorities exercise their power to restore order. PAD should use democratic ways if they fight for democracy.

also, very wired that in the general 4 points of advise, the idea that PAD should get out of the airport is the last point. how come? this should be the first point.

Who has the final say in the General's loyalties?

It isn't PAD and it isn't Somchai.

[hammered]

Joe --- I clearly said "Thaksin populism" ... look up the word populism

and you are making a serious mistake about me being against democracy, I voted! I just think it doesn't exist here and hasn't since Thaksin demolished the checks and balances The fact that a convicted criminal could get his brother-in-law appointed to the PM position should show you that!

The Bin Ladens are a very respected construction company that Bush and the US government have ties with. Their son is a terrorist that needs to be shot. Just because one is related to the other does not

make them the same. They are innocent untill proven guilty. If Obama's brother does something should he have a mob take over the US government buildings and National Airport and demand his resignation?? This should show you you have no legitimate argument.

A fine sentiment and one with which I agree. It is a shame that so few said anything when the drug war was ongoing in reference to this sentiment.

Many people going through education degrees who then go on to be teachers and then sent into the rural areas are actually first generation middle class and often hail from wealthier farming families, urban working class families or the poorer end of the petty borgeoisie. Education degrees are not popular and even thos edoing them will move into another field if they can. That leaves the less well connected, and to some degree expalins the problems in controlling persoanl finance and all the debt stuff. They are definitely middle class to faremrs but are certainly no elite.

Anyway we are way way off topic.

What is going to happen today? Will the govo declare an SoE? Will they resign? or will they just play for time as usual?

[Samuian]

Military and police should be working on keeping the peace of the country. when a general tells the government to step down and does not do anything to secure strategic places like parliament building and international airport, its a silent coup. get the PAD out of the parliament buildings, airports and force them to obey law and order. have the authorities exercise their power to restore order. PAD should use democratic ways if they fight for democracy.

also, very wired that in the general 4 points of advise, the idea that PAD should get out of the airport is the last point. how come? this should be the first point.

Except some grenades fired under the veil of the night, grenades fired by police DIRECTLY at protesters resulting in maiming and death, gunshots at peaceful protesters, there is peace in the country.

The "silent coup" tries to replace a silent long continuing robbery of the state, by state officials!

PAD should use democratic ways if they fight for democracy

I have the impression that is exactly what the PAD is doing...

Well, what would change if leaving the airport and the parliament would be point 1.a.)? What would change?

The dissolution of the Government and of the Primeminister has Top-Priority, thisis why all this is happening, or have I got the order wrong?

Why is it so quiet out there?

[TAWP]

somchai should sack the army general immediately and put someone in place that can do the job. ie. remove the 'protesters' from the airport.

I agree. I think they should put Colin Powell in his place. Problem solved.

Laying to the UN, supporting an invasion of a nation that had notion to do with terrorism and without proof of WMD...atleast you are sure picking your winners in the same fashion.

[aircut]

Except some grenades fired under the veil of the night, grenades fired by police DIRECTLY at protesters resulting in maiming and death, gunshots at peaceful protesters, there is peace in the country.

You must be joking... peaceful PAD protesters? common. they are armed hooligans, with sticks, bars and weapons. they are just mob.

The "silent coup" tries to replace a silent long continuing robbery of the state, by state officials!

no, it tries to steal the entire country to the personal benefits sonthi.

PAD should use democratic ways if they fight for democracy

I have the impression that is exactly what the PAD is doing...

yea sure.

Well, what would change if leaving the airport and the parliament would be point 1.a.)? What would change?

i tell you why. first you have to recommend to correct illegal activities of PAD, before you recommend to dissolve legal government

[HamSabai]

By physically shutting down Suvarnabhumi airport, the People's Alliance for Democracy has upped the stakes in Thailand's ongoing political polarisation. It has demonstrated the extent to which it will resort to mob violence to achieve its aims. ANALYSIS By Thitinan Pongsudhirak

The PAD is bent on creating the conditions of ungovernability and then to demand the ouster of Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat on grounds that Thailand is ungovernable.

Its tactics have warped into a blatant street campaign of intimidation and fear, of coercion and force.

That the PAD has come this far in its thuggish ways is attributable to its powerful backing, without which its relative impunity in the face of flagrant violations of the law can hardly be explained.

The PAD's latest antic at Suvarnabhumi airport will likely narrow its support base, especially in Bangkok as the capital reels from the longer-term impact of the airport closure to business confidence, but its remaining columns will still be deep in their resolve to get their way.

What the PAD wants has not changed. After an unsuccessful bid under the guise of the so-called "new politics," it first demanded the ouster of former prime minister Samak Sundaravej earlier this year, and it is now after Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat.

To reach its endgame, the PAD has to clear the slate of government, led by the People Power party. As a result, the PAD has bayed for blood, openly inviting a military coup in order to bring up an interim arrangement.

This would allow the PAD to either rewrite the current constitution or come up with an entirely new charter. Its ultimate objective is to fashion the rules of the democratic game to guarantee elite representation in the elected parliament through partial appointments.

Its logic is simple. A one-man, one-vote democratic system will indefinitely return the same parliamentary faces with a similar populist policy agenda that has appealed to the vast majority of the electorate in the Northeast and North, who voted for deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his disbanded Thai Rak Thai party for six years and for Mr Samak and Mr Somchai and PPP more recently.

Unsurprisingly, the PAD has openly shown disdain for these rural constituencies as faceless and gullible vote-sellers who should not be counted on equal terms with the PAD's urban minority in Thailand's electorate.

But the PAD faces a daunting uphill task in resetting the political environment and realising its anti-democratic agenda.

Somehow it would have to dislodge the PPP and perhaps its successor Puea Thai party from elected power, and to keep them out.

The PAD would then have to force an interim period during which its cadres would assert themselves in charter alterations. In an age when democratic rule is an emerging norm of the international community, when information is more widely accessible due to new technologies, any anti-democratic movement will be hard-pressed to get away with elite dominance.

Yet the PAD has shown that it is willing to go all the way.

It is willing to hold Thailand captive by disrupting airport operations, and to even cause an international embarrassment as Thailand gears up for its chairmanship of the Asean and East Asia summits in Chiang Mai next month.

Only its backers can pull the plug on the PAD but they may now be too insecure and paranoid to go back.

The longer this crisis goes on, the more exposed and compromised the PAD's backers have become.

And the PAD is continually dragging them down to the cut-and-thrust of Thai politics to their own detriment.

While the stakes are high, with wide and deep longer-term damages, it is not too late for the PAD's backers to rein in this rabid and reckless movement or to pull its plug altogether.

The ultimate danger for the PAD on the one hand and for Thailand on the other is not from the government, army or police - but from the red shirts banded under the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship.

Capable of a corresponding sort of mob violence, these UDD red shirts have decidedly displayed patience, order and restraint in their recent mass rallies, in deliberate contrast to the PAD's open incitement of violence and gross distortions of information. Widespread civil strife would be the outcome in the event the UDD turns on the PAD in full force.

A House dissolution, as proposed by army chief General Anupong Paojinda, is a release valve from such a UDD-PAD clash.

Although it would not resolve Thailand's urban-rural structural crisis in the long term, a new slate through new elections would buy time for the various protagonists to come to their senses and for Thai voters to have a say after a year of turmoil and volatility.

It is an option which Prime Minister Somchai should not dismiss out of hand for self-righteous reasons, especially if he is confident of his party's - and successor party's - winning policy platform.

The same goes for the People's Alliance for Democracy - if it still claims to stand for the Thai people.

Thitinan Pongsudhirak is Director of the Institute of Security and International Studies, Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University.

Sorry if already posted

[Plus]

Keep in mind that Thitinan is a very biased commentator with his own leftist agenda.

Look at this example: "A one-man, one-vote democratic system will indefinitely return the same parliamentary faces with a similar populist policy agenda that has appealed to the vast majority of the electorate in the Northeast and North,.."

PAD doesn't give a shit about PPP's policies and populist agenda. The issue is PPP's attempt to reinstate Thaksin, not 30 baht schemes or free train rides, but, like many other leftists here, Thitinan can't write a piece without reducing everything to the most basic class conflicts.

[animatic]

Propaganda machines in full swing today...

Believe ANYTHING at your own risk.

[Crushdepth]

It's pretty easy to put on a different coloured shirt and go cause some trouble that will be blamed on the 'opposition'. Plenty of shirt swapping going on.

[permanent_disorder]

So you say teaching very young children moral behavior is indoctrination..

Well what is moral and morals?

...

(don't lament again that i don't full quote your post.)

it was clear for me that you didn't refer to the PAD in your other post.

why i mentioned the PAD? education concept have been on topic and so i recommended you to do a critical view on the PAD from exactly that position in your post. i agree with you 100% , right, what you had written in the post before, (okay, undecided about the school uniform), about the wrongs of nationalism, and better teach kids tthe way that they can think for themself and became critical thinkers and so on and if you are honest, you will have to admit that the PAD will stand more for the opposite. the play the Nation that what is what they 'sacrifying' themself for. ready to be a martyr. sounds not very individualistic and or like a independent mind.

question things, always. and be also critical, question once more or depper. that is the way we raise knowledge.

but are you a (critical) thinker? now you are defending the PAD again.

and why it's not right - i gave you the answer before. at first it should be not government business to set a program that sound like a MUST for every citizen, and in this case 2-3 year old kids, babies this idea is just gagga.

read what funny theory Pibob has "He said corrupt politicians have not been coached on proper moral values and ethics when there were young." yes, of course. that is the reason and the solution is so simple, just teach every future citizen at age 2-3 what PAD "new politics" think is the right "morals and ethics " and we need just 2-3 generations and everybody in the community is good and happy. and we fight the evil away. (you know, people have different opinion on what is the proper moral, what is right and wrong - just look at the gay marriage issue for example, or the bikini 50-60 years ago).

anyway what is that for a kind of analysis "corrupt, because didn't got the proper lessons as a child" is that based on empirical studies, is it a psychological or psychoanalytical theory? questions that as the "critical thinker" and you will see it's BS. it's a dumb theory and a shamless attempt of self claimed do-gooder and do-better hardcore moralistic CULT to instill their ideology.

.

anyway such terms like moral and ethic means nothing to 2-3 years old kids. they are just not ready or old enough for it. i did recommend you last time a recent academic study on exactly that subject.

"Egalitarianism in young children: ... At age 3–4, the overwhelming majority of children behave selfishly, whereas most children at age 7–8 prefer resource allocations that remove advantageous or disadvantageous inequality. Moreover, inequality aversion is strongly shaped by parochialism, a preference for favouring the members of one's own social group. These results indicate that human egalitarianism and parochialism have deep developmental roots, and the simultaneous emergence of altruistic sharing and parochialism during childhood is intriguing in view of recent evolutionary theories which predict that the same evolutionary process jointly drives both human altruism and parochialism."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v454/...ature07155.html that study got well covered on the science/knowledge section of many different publikations around a 4-5 month ago. and the study fits our subject perfect. read it. google the key words to read more about. educate yourself.

spend time with your kid, smile at it and do all the fun and try to do teach, yes of course but again that should not be a nationwide government controlled program and about such strong values like moral and ethics at a age2-3.

for the PAD idea , i am sure you will not find a single modern theory of pedagogy that supports or would recommend the PAD concept. on a pseudo academical level in north korea maybe, or in some strange religious cults and of course in the fiction. like about how the leaders of a devil cult try to brainwash a whole country and kill every critic or declare him for evil. or like your typical story on a dystopian future. ahh, okay, in the commie states the try something like this, to create a new human being with a higher, a real proletarian awarness, the ideological BS that lenin &ff made of marx, you know.

and of course you can not deny that that PAD want try something "new" what they call new politics or just simple "Support for good people to manage the country and blocking of evil people from coming to power so all sectors of society are ensured justice..... It is not necessary for negotiations with any group that sees otherwise."

and they have already a fitting economic concept and one for education as well.

so much to the theoretical PAD education concept, that we can maybe see in the future. but i don't think that the PAD will get their 'new politics' running.

but when it comes to kids there is some strange allready happen, and makes me want to puke on the PAD scum.

and that is the way how they use innocent kids for their propaganda, read about the girl named Cookie, or what cmsally was reporting. and that are not isolated case you can see it often, abuse of kids for their propaganda. that is sick.

i also posted pic of real young teenager boys, like only 15 years hang around in full PAD combat gear with helmet, club, shield and PAD neck scarf. and even younger ones 10-12 maybe sitting around there all the clubs and slingshots in the arsenal tent. what will teach that those kids/half adults in that phase of their youth. and if that "peaceful" movement can not refrain from that menacingly appearance, shouldn't the guard job and the weapon part a strictly adult job? it's sick that they don't send those boys home.

and psycho leader rosanna claim all that other kids are at the PAD ground out of free will,har har. is just a lie. they follow their parents or whoever in whatever position in the PAD cult organisation is responsible for the kids. the kids on the PAD stage, wishing other people death, throwing insults, hate language and get big applouse for that. or the kids tell the crowd that they want sacrifice themself for the Nation. RATTLE, RATTLE, RATTLE. grrrrrg. in no way they came up with such an idea alone and by themself. better let the kids stay home, learn or play. PAD need and use those kids around as propoganda, pictures of cute little kids.a strong images and good PR. and at the same time., there is the danger, surrounded by and part of the crowd, the PAD guards, armed with knifes, clubs, guns, homemade grenades and pingpongBombs. the kids have been human shields. that is the most sicko part. the situation could have been escalating any time, for what ever reason. PAD guard would not hesitate to fight back or attack with their guns and bombs in such a moment, putting kids in much higher danger and maybe in a sicko style speculate on even much stronger propaganda images.

just for security reason they should have send the kids away. that is not the playground for them or where they can learn anything useful. Those in charge and do the strategy work for the PAD, should have known that all that peaceful image, is just another propaganda image. but parents with the kids havn't been aware of that danger, thought they are real in a peaceful camp.

and as parents - come with kids to political demonstration, dressed them up in movement colour, paint their face, add a bandana with a slogan etc. that is questionable as well.

that was not labelled as temple fair, garden party or BBQ afternoon for the whole family. but as The Last War, The Final Battle.

and PAD desperatly asking for that someone hurt them so that they can create a drama.

ethics=0

the moral: PAD=SCUM

[mazeltov]

I'm still appreciative that the red shirts haven't had direct confrontations recently with the yellows. Is it because the reds are restrained or because they can't muster enough folks to counter the yellows?

It's also mucho appreciarlo that the police and military haven't responded heavy-handedly. bravo!

I think the PAD are shooting themselves in the foot with this latest tactic and the reds know this . reds seem happy to sit back and watch them bleed.

PAD public approval is at an all time low .

I doubt that really. You are assuming that each member of the publics opinion matters in the same way. It doesn't work that way. They may win or lose whatever that means to them, but I don't think it will be based on public opinion polls.

you are right, public opinion polls are overrated.

[Jdietz]

2008 post, disregard. Maybe close?

[animatic]

Permanent_Disorder returned as Mazeltov

and looking for more dirt to sling.

Lock this.

[monkfish]

The amicable solution is to elect a new government? As if there any question as to which side the army is on. This country is helpless.

Why is it hard to see that the Army in staying neutral is preventing escalation? Neutral ---

It is not the Army's job to deal with political messes though they often have in their past! I think Thai people should be proud of how the military has reacted in this crisis. Instead of making a power grab (which is what the PAD wanted) the military seems to be forcing a diplomatic resolution to the problems here. The current government has no credibility anywhere and the PAD is not a political party. The Democrats have stayed out of the fray almost entirely but they could step in at this point to ensure that the government is dissolved and do so with honor, by resigning en masse.

(Since the Roman Empire , using the military as a police force in your own country has seemed to be a bad idea in countries that were not military dictatorships.)

Loads of good stuff in here Mazeltov wonder if jd is still in the same opinion regarding the dictatorship bit

Edited March 29, 2010 by monkfish