Is Deliberately Inflicting Cruelty Against Buddhas Teachings?

[rockyysdt]

I consider myself very fortunate to be a city dweller.

A huge benefit is to have my meat butchered for me.

Buying food from the supermarket is far removed from the realities of an abattoir.

Even though country folk in North East Thailand must slaughter animals on a regular basis for their survival, it's not this that concerns me.

The dilemma is how they reconcile their behaviour against Buddhist values?

Do they lack mindfulness and self awareness or is it deeper?

Examples which affected me were:

While scything rice in the field a labourer gleefully showed me a large live green grasshopper he had just found. He indicated with sign language that it would make a tasty snack for him later on. With a grin on his face he proceeded to rip its legs off and placed the live creature in his pocket for safe keeping.

Later in the day I watched a group net fishing for seafood at a local dam.

The catch that day consisted of large snails & crabs.

With each catch they would shake the crabs free and place them in a special cane basket.

Showing impatience, one of the fishermen would rip the crabs claws off rather than take the time to untangle them. His assistant was more interested in the loss of the claw flesh rather than any suffering inflicted.

A fire had been made whilst the fishing was in progress.

Live crabs were thrown on the coals for a quick snack before taking off with the catch.

Later a village woman placed her steamer over some coals and placed live prawns and greens into it leaving them to slowly scald as the steam built up. On questioning her, she smiled and said that they live to be food.

It's not the slaughter of animals thath I have issue with.

It's the cruelty displayed with no regard for the suffering inflicted on these creatures, all done with a smile or laughter.

Is it wrong to inflict such severe cruelty, particularly for a Buddhist?

Edited November 28, 2008 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Is it wrong to inflict such severe cruelty, particularly for a Buddhist?

Yes, I think most educated people would consider it wrong, Buddhist or not. Remember though that these are not educated people.

[khaowong1]

Is it wrong to inflict such severe cruelty, particularly for a Buddhist?

Yes, I think most educated people would consider it wrong, Buddhist or not. Remember though that these are not educated people.

Very good answer. I live in Lopburi, out in the country, and have for 2 years. I see this behavior daily. And it used to confuse me, how they could be this way with their Buddhist upbringing, and it finally dawned on me, these are un-educated people. They just go through the basic Buddhist activities at the temple and have no thought of their actions outside of the Wat. They know the words and programs at the temple, but probably don't have a clue what the Lord Buddha's teachings really are about.

[camerata]

I think every Thai would know the 5 Precepts and the precept against killing, but they consider eating and staying alive as more important. My theory about (some) Thais and cruelty to animals is that they feel that being an animal and all the bad treatment that entails is simply a working out of that being's kamma. In other words, whatever we inflict on an animal is part of its kamma. Also, Thais make a distinction between sat yai (large animals) and sat lek (small animals). On Buddhist holy days my local street vendors will sell seafood and chicken but not pork or beef.

[rockyysdt]

My theory about (some) Thais and cruelty to animals is that they feel that being an animal and all the bad treatment that entails is simply a working out of that being's kamma. In other words, whatever we inflict on an animal is part of its kamma.

Perhaps a dangerous practice as it may affect their own kamma considerably.

We're subjected regularly to news of disasters, death and suffering throughout the world.

The behaviour in question could be one of the fuels resulting in such kamma.

[fabianfred]

as the Buddha said...we have been wandering, trapped in Samsara, since beginningless time.... and the reason is ignorance of the Truth

These people are ignorant of the real dhamma and mostly follow the rites and rituals ....adherance to which is to be avoided by one hoping to achieve Sotapannahood

[rockyysdt]

as the Buddha said...we have been wandering, trapped in Samsara, since beginningless time.... and the reason is ignorance of the Truth

These people are ignorant of the real dhamma and mostly follow the rites and rituals ....adherance to which is to be avoided by one hoping to achieve Sotapannahood

I suppose such ignorance also encompasses institutionalised corruption.

I didn't realize that it is a daily practice for police to ask for an on the spot bribe for traffic infringements allowing violaters to avoid the inconvenience of fronting to a police station where an official infringement notice can be given.

It appears that the final amount of such bribes can be haggled and that this practice is the norm.

I'd imagine as bribes would affect over all official traffic infringement statistics and revenue, that the corruption would involve middle and perhaps higher ranking officials.

Apart from being involved in institutionalised bribery and corruption another casualty of this practice is that traffic violaters get off lightly. Serial violaters would go undetected and retain their licences resulting in light punishments and unsafe road use.

Is this another example of ignorance of the Truth?

Edited December 1, 2008 by rockyysdt

[mizzi39]

Is it wrong to inflict such severe cruelty, particularly for a Buddhist?

Yes, I think most educated people would consider it wrong, Buddhist or not. Remember though that these are not educated people.

Very good answer. I live in Lopburi, out in the country, and have for 2 years. I see this behavior daily. And it used to confuse me, how they could be this way with their Buddhist upbringing, and it finally dawned on me, these are un-educated people. They just go through the basic Buddhist activities at the temple and have no thought of their actions outside of the Wat. They know the words and programs at the temple, but probably don't have a clue what the Lord Buddha's teachings really are about.

Sorry, but this has to be one of the most arrogant comments that I have read in a long time, and cannot believe that i am reading this in the Buddhist forum. This post should be moved over to the general topics forum. What makes you such a righteous Buddhist to make an overgeneralized comment like this?

Edited December 2, 2008 by camerata
Insulting questions deleted. Jai yen yen.

[chutai]

Is it wrong to inflict such severe cruelty, particularly for a Buddhist?

Yes, I think most educated people would consider it wrong, Buddhist or not. Remember though that these are not educated people.

Very good answer. I live in Lopburi, out in the country, and have for 2 years. I see this behavior daily. And it used to confuse me, how they could be this way with their Buddhist upbringing, and it finally dawned on me, these are un-educated people. They just go through the basic Buddhist activities at the temple and have no thought of their actions outside of the Wat. They know the words and programs at the temple, but probably don't have a clue what the Lord Buddha's teachings really are about.

Sorry, but this has to be one of the most arrogant comments that I have read in a long time, and cannot believe that i am reading this in the Buddhist forum. This post should be moved over to the general topics forum. What makes you such a righteous Buddhist to make an overgeneralized comment like this?

I too found the initials comments somewhat distasteful and lacking in any basic understanding. But I suppose that one could say that conveyor of such ideas is himself displaying a backward feudal model and mindset by referring to the "Lord" ?

However, I must say that I've often wondered and my sensibilities sometimes offended by the treatment of animals in Thailand. From a Buddhist perspective - or at least one that I fully accept - all sentient beings possess the Buddha nature and are ,therefore, worthy of the utmost respect. To show disrespect to any living creature by means of cruelty is only to display disrespect for yourself and to life itself. But callous disregard for the sanctity of life isn't merely confined to one country alone. It's root, I believe, is to be found in the three poisons of greed , stupidity and ignorance ; which can be found amongst all humans irrespective in the samsaric/saha world of what's been referred to as "fundamental darkness".

[mizzi39]

quote: Yes, I think most educated people would consider it wrong, Buddhist or not. Remember though that these are not educated people

quote:Very good answer. I live in Lopburi, out in the country, and have for 2 years. I see this behavior daily. And it used to confuse me, how they could be this way with their Buddhist upbringing, and it finally dawned on me, these are uneducated people.

WOW moderator. Strange that you view these comments as being unoffensive. Did not know that it was acceptable for Buddhists to make generalized comments about those "uneducated (country) people, but hey I'm just a lay Buddhist so Mai bpen rai. I'm out of here.

Edited December 2, 2008 by mizzi39

[camerata]

WOW moderator. Strange that you view these comments as being unoffensive.

Ideally, Buddhists shouldn't be offended by anything at all. The way I understood the comment was that the people involved in cruelty to animals had not been educated in the core principles of Buddhism, but instead had been brought up to concentrate on the ritual and social aspects of the religion. I don't have any problem with that.

[Brucenkhamen]

WOW moderator. Strange that you view these comments as being unoffensive.

Ideally, Buddhists shouldn't be offended by anything at all. The way I understood the comment was that the people involved in cruelty to animals had not been educated in the core principles of Buddhism, but instead had been brought up to concentrate on the ritual and social aspects of the religion. I don't have any problem with that.

I started the thread down that path and what I was trying to say is give these people a break as you can't expect so much from people who haven't had the the experiences and opportunities in life to be able to question the norms that prevail in the small area they live in.

Not sure why that's supposed to be offensive

[fabianfred]

I think it is quite true that many Thai people, who have grown up as Buddhists, have a very poor understanding of it, even the men who have done their bit and been ordained for a while......

Certainly we Westerners who come into Buddhism because we are interested and want to study about it are in a different position to those who never really thought about it because it has always been a part of their lives, or just another subject in school.

Thais often have told me that they are surprised and pleased that I as a Farang should be so interested in Buddhism and after a short chat have often said that i knew more about it than them or most ordinary Thais....not trying to brag or feel superior here BTW.

Some monks have told me that ordinary Thais treat the precepts as if they are a spell or incantation. When they come to the temple on buddha days or at a funeral for example, the monks give the five precepts, but five minutes later the people are back drinking alcohol etc....just as if the monks are chanting a magic spell and merely by listening or repeating it the people will gain something....not bothering to actually try and keep the precepts.

Like the precepts are a train ticket to nirvana, and they exclaim look at this wonderful thing I have just been given, a ticket to nirvana....and they collect many such tickets, but without actually using them by getting on the train they will never get to nirvana.

Also some monks do not instruct the lay people properly and lay too much stress on making donations to the monks and temples to gain merit.........and many thais believe that one has to becoame a monk to have the chance to get to nirvana...in some distant rebirth...........NOT....... quite attainable within a few lives if one becomes Sotapanna in this life....and women do not have to be reborn as men to have the chance to reach nirvana either.

[sabaijai]

as the Buddha said...we have been wandering, trapped in Samsara, since beginningless time.... and the reason is ignorance of the Truth

These people are ignorant of the real dhamma and mostly follow the rites and rituals ....adherance to which is to be avoided by one hoping to achieve Sotapannahood

I suppose such ignorance also encompasses institutionalised corruption.

I didn't realize that it is a daily practice for police to ask for an on the spot bribe for traffic infringements allowing violaters to avoid the inconvenience of fronting to a police station where an official infringement notice can be given.

It appears that the final amount of such bribes can be haggled and that this practice is the norm.

I'd imagine as bribes would affect over all official traffic infringement statistics and revenue, that the corruption would involve middle and perhaps higher ranking officials.

Apart from being involved in institutionalised bribery and corruption another casualty of this practice is that traffic violaters get off lightly. Serial violaters would go undetected and retain their licences resulting in light punishments and unsafe road use.

Is this another example of ignorance of the Truth?

Is accepting money on the spot, thereby exempting drivers from having to go to the police station, deliberate cruelty? It wouldn't appear so. If in the end causes suffering because of the inculcation of corruption, then it's unskilful. I don't think the intention is so easy to judge, however.

[rockyysdt]

Is accepting money on the spot, thereby exempting drivers from having to go to the police station, deliberate cruelty? It wouldn't appear so. If in the end causes suffering because of the inculcation of corruption, then it's unskilful. I don't think the intention is so easy to judge, however.

Hi sabaijai

You must have misunderstood me.

Fabianfred broadened the subject by indicating that cruelty was due to ignorance.

I merely went down that path by highlighting other practices which may occur due to ignorance.

Yes, it appears the bribe assists both parties:

1. Officer benefits from a cash bribe, no record or receipts.

2. The traffic law offender can negotiate a bribe lower than the official fine, avoids detention required to process the fine, and avoids a police record and consequently greater ramifications.

No record means the law breaker escapes insurance penalties, accumulation leading to loss of licence and is rewarded for dangerous driving. Further, wealthy law breakers escape with little penalty.

Also the government and consequenly the Thai people miss out on the official revenue.

Also the cost of a corrupt institution cannot be measured. Practices a not limited to traffic fines.

Edited December 4, 2008 by rockyysdt