Corrections For Thai Reference Grammar: The Structure Of Spoken Thai

[phanatnikhom]

Dear Forum members,

This is from James Higbie, author of Thai Reference Grammar. I have seen through this forum that there is a great deal of interest in Thai grammar and in learning Thai, and am very excited that there are people who are interested in this book, which took me and my co-author quite a few years to develop.

I would like to make a sincere request for people using Thai Reference Grammar to submit corrections or comments for a possible second edition using this topic thread. We would give credit to any suggestions. I am also interested in becoming involved in discussions on aspects of Thai grammar and usage, both those described in the book and those you have discovered that were not included.

I hope to receive comments. Thank you very much for your interest and hard work in analyzing and describing the Thai language.

Regards,

James Higbie

[5tash]

Hi James, and welcome to the forum,

I would like to bring up again the discussion from another thread about the use of the informal เค้า throughout your book, and would like to hear your reasons for using it.

Thanks.

[Gaccha]

James

I just bought your book today. I am keen to provide constructive crticism and ideas but that might take a few weeks or even months. What timescale are you on; when do you have to get edition 2 done?

Looks good so far. As a test I checked the index to see if it offered the following English grammar phrases:

"just as"

"as if"

"only" (and no more)

"only" (just)

"only" (about)

I was pleased with what I saw.

[mynextgig]

Dear Forum members,

This is from James Higbie, author of Thai Reference Grammar. I have seen through this forum that there is a great deal of interest in Thai grammar and in learning Thai, and am very excited that there are people who are interested in this book, which took me and my co-author quite a few years to develop.

I would like to make a sincere request for people using Thai Reference Grammar to submit corrections or comments for a possible second edition using this topic thread. We would give credit to any suggestions. I am also interested in becoming involved in discussions on aspects of Thai grammar and usage, both those described in the book and those you have discovered that were not included.

I hope to receive comments. Thank you very much for your interest and hard work in analyzing and describing the Thai language.

Regards,

James Higbie

James,

Not an opportunity i ever expected to have, but i would like to congratulate you on the book. I have found it to be extremely useful in improving my conversational Thai and still refer to it on a regular basis a good 2 years after i 1st purchased it.

I will review some of my intial thoughts about the book and post back here with my suggestions.

Additionally, it would be great for your to participate on the other threads in this forum as you obviously have a in depth understanding of the Thai language from the perspective of a native english speaker.

[bunnaag]

Where can I purchase this book?I live in Had Yaai.Can I order it?

[MKAsok]

James - hyperbole aside, thanks for a truly fantastic book. It's a real monster (not surprised it took you both a few years) but it's certainly been of immeasurable benefit to me so far. I doubt you'll be short of constructive comments from some of the heavyweights in the forum, but if anything in particular strikes me, I'll be sure to let you know...

mk

[taxexile]

i have found this book to be most useful , and after an initial reluctance to delve into into it regularly (i found it confusing) it now lives permanently in my "on the go " pile of books , as opposed to one or two other language books which quickly get put back on the shelf and remain there gathering dust.

my only comment would be a request to print the thai phrases in a larger or bolder type than that used in my 2003 reprint edition.

and thanks to james and snea for a wonderful learning aid.

Edited December 3, 2008 by taxexile

[bobbin]

Great book, James.

My first request though, would be to ensure that it is better bound in the next edition. My copy began having pages fall out after only a year or two, and I'm not hard on books.

Your first book "Essential Thai" got me off to a great start!

[Golden Nugget]

My first request though, would be to ensure that it is better bound in the next edition. My copy began having pages fall out after only a year or two, and I'm not hard on books.

Same here. The binding is horrible. I too treated the book gently, but the pages fell off in less than a year. I also have "Thai An Essential Grammar" by David Smyth, which has been abused but is still holding up very well. While you're at it, replacing the book cover material would also be a nice improvement. Hope to have some real comments about the content in the near future.

[kriswillems]

Hi James,

Fist of all, I like your book. It think it's more complete than the other popular grammar book (of David Smyth).

But:

Besides the word เค้า there are other words that are written like in a comic book.

For instance one pages 294 and 295 the word สัก is written as ซัก (to reflect the pronunciation).

I think the book at least needs a remark about this, but better would be if you use normal writing language and use the phonetic script to show the correct pronunciation.

The book is also not consequent is using Thai language as it is spoken.

For instance. On page 295 you write ซิ but in the phonetic script you say it should be pronounced with a short vowel and low tone.

Or just to give one other example the word ได้ is written with a long vowel in the phonetic script but with a short vowel in the Thai script. If you would use the same rule of for the word เค้า you would need to write ด้าย

So, the whole idea of using spoken Thai in stead of written Thai is not consequently used throughout the book.

(PS. The book off David Smyth has similar problems)

[neilrob]

Hi James,

I like the book, with two exceptions, one major and one minor. The minor one is to print the Thai script larger, as requested in another reply above. The major one is the system of romanising Thai. Was it really necessary to come up with yet another version of phonetic language, and a not very intuitive one at that? I suggest either using a real phonetic script (with the special symbols this requires), or employing that used by K. Benjawan in her various books. The latter is the most intuitive version of any which I have seen, for English speakers, with few special symbols.

That said, best wishes for a new edition, Neil

[phanatnikhom]

Dear Forum Members,

First, thank you for all the responses and I'm very happy to hear your positive comments about the book and to see that so many people are interested in advanced Thai. The questions so far are about the informal spellings of some words (and not of others) and I'll think of a response and write it soon. By the way, my co-author's name is pronounced Sa-nay ("charming") and you can call me Jim. Don't ask me why Snea spells his name that way. I'm working in Africa now but I lived in Thailand for a long time, mostly working at a refugee camp in Phanat Nikhom, Chonburi Province.

I'd really like to put in a plug for the Orchid Press Bookstore here, because it's an excellent store with hundreds of books on Asia, but not many people in Bangkok know about it because of its location. To get to it take BTS Skytrain to Sala Daeng station. Exit number 4 and got to shop 411 on the 4th floor. It's in a shopping center opposite Soi Tanya. The managers Chris and Vic have put together a really good collection of books including a section on old, out of print books on Asia.

Thanks again for your posts and I'll get back soon.

All the best,

Jim Higbie

[dvc]

Hi James – I’ll add my call for a larger typeface for the Thai language portions…as is; it’s quite difficult to read. I’d also like to see the Thai translations, not the phonetic script, placed directly after the English language phrase or words. Anyone who gets to the stage of using your book should be able to read and write Thai. The emphasis should be on using Thai, not phonetics. You might also like to consider expanding the appendices to include, not only classifiers, but other useful reference material…much like the appendices of the old, “The Fundamentals of the Thai Language”.

My thanks for creating such a useful book.

[stevehaigh]

hi james, your book is my favourite Thai language book out there (and i'm a Paiboon author so don't tell benjawan i said that!). i also use your book as an engish teaching book when i'm helping my wife's daughters learn English.

i also would like to see larger Thai text but i have no problem with the romanizing system, i think its one of the best ones i've seen.

steve (a.k.a Philip Bryce)

[phanatnikhom]

Hi James – I'll add my call for a larger typeface for the Thai language portions…as is; it's quite difficult to read. I'd also like to see the Thai translations, not the phonetic script, placed directly after the English language phrase or words. Anyone who gets to the stage of using your book should be able to read and write Thai. The emphasis should be on using Thai, not phonetics. You might also like to consider expanding the appendices to include, not only classifiers, but other useful reference material…much like the appendices of the old, "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language".

My thanks for creating such a useful book.

Thanks for the comments. It's been an on-going discussion about whether the phonetics should even be included. Some people think it should just be English and Thai script, and we considered doing that, but in the end I thought it would limit the number of people using the book because some people would want to see phonetics. I also wanted to show the informal pronunciation phonetically, not only the words people have mentioned in this forum, but all the words and syllables that are pronounced with mid tones informally.

"Fundamentals of the Thai Language" - that was a great book. Someone borrowed mine a long time ago. It was a good book to start with and the author was obviously covering new ground at the time. I believe it was written in the fifties when Bangkok was a little town and not many people were learning Thai. I think in the back there were appendices on the names of ministries, but I can't remember much else.

[phanatnikhom]

Where can I purchase this book?I live in Had Yaai.Can I order it?

There should be a bookstore in Had Yaai where you can order it if none of them have it in stock. It's difficult to get the book in towns outside of Bangkok and Chiang Mai. Are any of the major bookstores there? (Bookazine, Asia).

I can check with Orchid Press to see if they send the book there. It's up to the bookstore to order it or to the companies like Bookazine to distribute it to their outlets.

Jim

[mc2]

Jim, I found this book very useful, thanks.

I would have preferred a different phonetic scheme but it is not a biggie.

A vocabulary section/appendix would be nice.

But what I would really like is a cd or mp3 files with recording of all or many of the key sentences. That would help a lot. Although I understand it may be outside the scope of the book.

Edited December 13, 2008 by mc2

[dvc]

Hi James – I'll add my call for a larger typeface for the Thai language portions…as is; it's quite difficult to read. I'd also like to see the Thai translations, not the phonetic script, placed directly after the English language phrase or words. Anyone who gets to the stage of using your book should be able to read and write Thai. The emphasis should be on using Thai, not phonetics. You might also like to consider expanding the appendices to include, not only classifiers, but other useful reference material…much like the appendices of the old, "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language".

My thanks for creating such a useful book.

Thanks for the comments. It's been an on-going discussion about whether the phonetics should even be included. Some people think it should just be English and Thai script, and we considered doing that, but in the end I thought it would limit the number of people using the book because some people would want to see phonetics. I also wanted to show the informal pronunciation phonetically, not only the words people have mentioned in this forum, but all the words and syllables that are pronounced with mid tones informally.

"Fundamentals of the Thai Language" - that was a great book. Someone borrowed mine a long time ago. It was a good book to start with and the author was obviously covering new ground at the time. I believe it was written in the fifties when Bangkok was a little town and not many people were learning Thai. I think in the back there were appendices on the names of ministries, but I can't remember much else.

Hi James: thanks for the reply. I don't think the phonetics should be dispensed with entirely as sometimes they provide a useful guide to pronunciation of difficult words. However, they should certainly be relegated to second tier, with Thai, (in much larger typeface), as the primary medium.

Regarding "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language". There's an online version of the complete text available here:

www.lyndonhill.com/FunThai/CONTENTS.html It includes all the appendices. I still have a couple of copies of the original hardback. The book was my source for learning to read and write Thai. The first ten chapters contain the clearest and most straightforward guide to learning to read and write, I have ever found in print. I've posted a ZIP file here:

www.cyberstream.com.au/dvd/Fundamentals_of_Thai.zip that contains the entire electronic version, for the benefit of anyone who wishes to refer to it.

Edited December 13, 2008 by dvc

[foolforlove]

Hi Jim,

thanks for a great book. its right next to my dictionary and i use your book almost daily.

i echo the sentiments about using a more standard transliteration system.

here are my ideas............. (not listed in any particular order):

a) modals, for example, "would have..." "should" "should have" "must" "could" "could have" "ทำให้" etc.

I would like more examples of these in the text.

b ) more about verb tenses, especially compare/contrast uses like "ได้ + verb" and "sentence+แล้ว" or "เริ่ม" and "ชักจะ" or พึ่ง เพิ่ม or "จะ". in addition, modifying verbs with "กำลัง....อยู่" "sentence+อยู่" "sentence+ต่อ" "sentence+ต่อไป" "sentence+ไป"

c) compare/contrast dropping "จะ" from constructions such as อาจจะ and อาจ, คงจะ and คง, etc

d) more about making the concordance of time among multiple clauses. for example, if you have two clauses it often seems that the verb is conjugated for the tense in one clause, and in the second clause the verb is in the present simple because the tense is carried over from the other clause. in other words if one clause uses จะ to express the future, the second clauses doesn't use จะ because its understood that it is future tense also.

e) cause-effect constructions/clauses.... more examples for "ถ้า....ก็" "เมื่อ.......ก็" "subject+ก็เลย" "subject+จัง", and simply "ก็". also using "แล้ว+sentence", "และก็+sentence+ด้วย"

f) more examples and more about prepositions (contrasting) like ให้ เพื่อ เผื่อ เกี่ยวกับ เกี่ยว ที่ ถึง (e.g. ฟันถึง...) etc. As part of this, we need examples that show indirect objects and prepositional phrases. For example, its easy to see/learn "I sent the letter", but we need examples that show making constructions like "I sent the letter to him by airmail" (and show "I sent him the letter by airmail" too, if it's different). I think examples of these more complicated instructions would be important with the verbs: ส่ง ฝาก เอา พา รับ สั่ง. these should show examples with both active and passive voice.

g) more examples and compare/contrast นี้ นี่, นั้น นั่น, โน้น โน่น etc

h) it might be nice to have a section about explaining/giving directions to somewhere. showing using ข้าง+"...", "ใน". especially showing using ข้างหลัง versus เลย. and use of ครั้ง in directions: "ในซอยนี้ไหม" "ไม่ใช่ครั้งหน้า"

i) i think more examples about talking about time: during that time, between X and Y (time). especially showing more complicated constructions like "I have class Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays", in addition to the straightforward examples like "I go every Monday".

j) also use of ละ in more complicated sentences, meaning when you have to express more than one quantifying concept: I go to Chiang Mai two times every month. having to express both "two times" and "every month". or "three books in every box". i am sorry my examples for this aren't good.....

k) it might be nice to have an appendix that shows the short cuts people take in normal speech. for example usually i hear "....รึปะ" instead of "...หรือเปล่า"

l) need something that compares/contrasts about use of และ versus หรือ because there are times when we would use "and" in english but thai would use "or" (and vice-versa). also more about using แต่ versus และ for joining clauses. and แต่ versus แทน.

m) it might be nice to have an appendix (for the intrepid) to show vocabulary and use of words like: กิริยา นาม คุณศัพท์ คำลักษณะนาม etc. this would give us tools to talk about language and many thais seem quite versed in grammar.....

n) more about joining two clauses with "clause1+ว่า+clause2" versus "clause1+ที่+clause2"

i would also add... in sections where comparing and contrasting, use a table to visually organize/simplify how the items are the same and different.

thanks so much for your great work on this book...and your books about Lao language also.

Edited December 26, 2008 by foolforlove