How Do I Earth / Ground Appliances ?

[torrenova]

The missus has a new house project (small crap Thai house) but how can I make sure it is safe ? How to earth a shower, washing machine etc.

Currently there is no wiring for the shower so I want to know what I need before Somchai lets loose on the job.

[rambrutri]

Get a fully Insulated RCD Board Consumer Unit fitted as Somchai will have no experiance of an earth system in a domestic dwelling.

[think_too_mut]

The missus has a new house project (small crap Thai house) but how can I make sure it is safe ? How to earth a shower, washing machine etc.

Currently there is no wiring for the shower so I want to know what I need before Somchai lets loose on the job.

Is it possible? Most of Thai home electrical installations are single phase.

[Crossy]

Start here:- http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

And come back with any specific queries

[think_too_mut]

Start here:- http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

And come back with any specific queries

Sorry buddy, but "if you can't explain to a 6 years old, you don't know it yourself "(Albert Einstein).

Is it possible or not?

[Crossy]

Start here:- http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

And come back with any specific queries

Sorry buddy, but "if you can't explain to a 6 years old, you don't know it yourself "(Albert Einstein).

Is it possible or not?

YES of course, just think of single phase as 1/3 of a three phase 4-wire supply As a six year old you should be leaving electrics to a grown-up

EDIT to our OP, if you have no intention of providing grounding why are you asking??

Edited December 2, 2008 by Crossy

[think_too_mut]

Start here:- http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

And come back with any specific queries

Sorry buddy, but "if you can't explain to a 6 years old, you don't know it yourself "(Albert Einstein).

Is it possible or not?

YES of course, just think of single phase as 1/3 of a three phase 4-wire supply

Just think of performance degradation of any power hungry equipment when wired to a single phase + earthing.

A washing machine, for example.

Wherever I go in Thai, touching a computer (while barefoot) gives me elec shocks.

Tell us, in more simple words.

[Crossy]

Just think of performance degradation of any power hungry equipment when wired to a single phase + earthing. Grounding an appliance does not produce a degradation in performance. Your appliance will work just the same with or without grounding UNTIL there is a fault.

Wherever I go in Thai, touching a computer (while barefoot) gives me elec shocks. You get the shock because of leakage through the mains filter, grounding the unit will prevent the shocks. This leakage is NOT a fault, it is a design fact.

Tell us, in more simple words.

"Ground it and be safe, don't ground it and it's potentially lethal (that means it may kill you)" - Simple enough?

Edited December 2, 2008 by Crossy

[patklang]

Thats not an electrical shock thats a static discharge,big difference

[Crossy]

Thats not an electrical shock thats a static discharge,big difference

Nope, not static, definately leakage - a shock!

[dingdongrb]

Thats not an electrical shock thats a static discharge,big difference

Nope, not static, definately leakage - a shock!

I agree as ESD (Electro Static Discharge) cannot be generated in bare feet....It is definitely a small electrical shock being felt because the case of the PC is not at ground potential as it should be to be deemed safe...

EDIT: I should say Static electricity cannot be generated with bare feet... It is the discharge that is felt when the built up static electricity leaves the body through a conductor to go to ground potential.

Edited December 2, 2008 by dingdongrb

[torrenova]

to our OP, if you have no intention of providing grounding why are you asking??

Sorry I realise now it was unclear. I meant that whatever it is that is required, I will not be undertaking the work. I just want to know what is needed so I can at least have a chance of either explaining it to Somchai or the missus or hopefully being ble to source the required items and them hope Somchai understands what they are for.

I wasn't just asking for the sake of it I know what I am good at and defer to those with the requisite experience on matters of safety etc.

[dotcom]

Go to a shop selling electrical equip or Home Pro. Ask to see Ground rods. They are either sold copper or an iron rod seathed in brass. About 10 to 12 feet long. Purchase the correct clamp to go with it.

I'm sure Crossy tells you how to install it but - Somewhere near your load center drive it into the ground - dig a hole so it's below ground level. Affix the clamp. Affix a suitable wire - maybe 4 mm copper wire to the clamp. Put the wire in conduit & route it to your load center.

I would cover up the top of the ground rod & clamp with wet cement but Crossy might have other ideas.

Run 3 wires from your load center to every part of your house. Live Neutral & Ground. For ground 1.5 mm should be OK but Crossy will likely tell you to use 2.5 mm. Either one is fine.

For lights & sockets 2.5 mm is ok (from load center) Air cons, stoves, water heaters etc need bigger wiring. 4 mm 6 mm or bigger.

Tell us how many watt & the distance run & we can suggest wire size & breaker rating. Square D is a good brand.

You should have 6 to 8 breakers in your load center - in addition to master breaker & Safety-Cut.

[torrenova]

Sorry but I don't get this "Run 3 wires from your load center to every part of your house. Live Neutral & Ground. For ground 1.5 mm should be OK but Crossy will likely tell you to use 2.5 mm. Either one is fine.".

The house is wired for electric already. Just cheap live and neutral I presume for 2 pin sockets.

Are you saying that sticking this rod in the ground then attaching it to the breaker unit is not enough ?

What about things like the 2m copper wire which comes out the back of the washing machine ? How do you earth that ?

[dotcom]

Yeah I'm saying to go back & run a third wire - a ground wire.

If your wiring is strapped ON THE WALL - not buried in the wall you can retro fit 3 core double insulated wire.

Ditch the stupid 2 prong sockets & get these:

[longball53098]

The missus has a new house project (small crap Thai house) but how can I make sure it is safe ? How to earth a shower, washing machine etc.

Currently there is no wiring for the shower so I want to know what I need before Somchai lets loose on the job.

Torrenova,

It would seem that a lot of information is being fed to you but it is confusing you more than helping at this point.

You state this new house project is crap. Can you say where this house is located? It has been a regulation here in LOS for sometime that all new electrics use a ground. If you visit the PEA offices they have a lot of information on the correct wiring of the simplest of Thai homes using a proper ground. Regulations are great but the problem there is no enforcement of those regs. It's up to us to protect ourselves. I have lived here a few years and all the places I have lived had earthing at the panel and plugs and appliances. I am soon to build a new house and I can be sure it will be correct. All of the westernized new houses that I visit in various stages of construction use a third wire. The wiring methods are not the greatest but TIT. I am not familiar with the north and especially the small Thai village homes. I especially look at the electric work as one of the criteria judge the builder's product.

You can see from this attached page from a wiring manual how some different methods are employed. Grounding your appliances is critical for safety. You can wire your crap house even now at this stage. Your knowledge of electrics is very limited it seems. The learning process begins here with hopefully accurate advice.

If you could post a pic of your current consumer panel and a front view of your meter it would help some of us understand your crap house a little better.

Crossy has pointed you to a wiring site with tons of info which is a great place to start.

[dotcom]

The beauty of this website is that you can get advice from many experts.

While we are on the topic of grounding I think it would be useful to discuss what appliances need a ground.

I remember many years ago buying a side by side GE fridge - very expensive by Thai standards. The guys brought it from the warehouse & unboxed it in my driveway. Someone had taken a pair of pliers & ripped the ground pin off the plug. I told them to take it back & bring me one "uncut".

Many appliances should be grounded like a toaster or coffee pot but come from the store with a 2 pin plug. Don't stress over it. Use a ground whenever possible.

Things that should be grounded:

Water Heaters, Computers,

I would like my fellow members to chime in here & add their opinions on what stuff needs to be grounded.

P.S. In my opinion a refridgerator should be grounded but most sold in LoS are supplied with a 2 prong plug.

I am lucky - the condominium I live now is 7 years old & was built with grounding throughout.

Edited December 3, 2008 by dotcom

[torrenova]

Longball, you are right that I know little on this subject and the information is a bit overload though much appreciated.

Dotcom - I understand, the wiring is along the wall except where it goes through walls and upstairs. I'll check and try to get some pictures.

Trouble I will have is that it's the missus' pet project and she is not overly receptive to "farang knows best" when we do because she knows less than me about this which is really scary !

OK, so any rough ideas of cost to do it properly for total rewiring of the two bedrooms upstairs, living room and bathroom downstairs, install the electrics for the aircon upstairs, install the electrics for the water heater in the bathroom (6kw+), put in an earthing rod and wire it all up with the right wiring and a new box capable of handling everything ?

Also, I noticed today that some electric meters are 5/15 and some 15/45. If we needed to change to a higher one (have to check what ours is on that house), what would the electric company want cash wise ?

Cheers again for bearing with me on this.

[TomBrown]

Could someone tell me how to earth my fridge?

The fridge power cable has two prongs only (grey cable seen on right in photo), there is a separate earth point on the back of the fridge and an earth cable supplied. However I can't find any adapters in the hardware stores that I can attached the earth cable to. Please help?

[Crossy]

EDIT Oops can't tell left from right.

If you get a 3 pin plug you can connect your green lead to the ground pin, best solution would be to replace the cord with a 3 wire one.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Crossy

[dotcom]

Yeah & don't assume that power strip is grounded. Confirm it for yourself.

Ensure your wall receptacle is grounded.

[Crossy]

Yeah & don't assume that power strip is grounded. Confirm it for yourself.

Ensure your wall receptacle is grounded.

Good points dotty, that power strip looks to have metal in the ground holes, hopefully it has a 3 pin plug

[TomBrown]

Yeah & don't assume that power strip is grounded. Confirm it for yourself.

Ensure your wall receptacle is grounded.

Good points dotty, that power strip looks to have metal in the ground holes, hopefully it has a 3 pin plug

The power strip is definitely grounded.

The wall points are also grounded.

If you get a 3 pin plug you can connect your green lead to the ground pin, best solution would be to replace the cord with a 3 wire one.

Crossy, so you're suggesting that I either;

1. Cut the existing power plug off the end of the fridge cable, replace it with a three pin plug which would facilitate the earth cable, then connect earth cable to the plug and to the earth point on the fridge?

-or-

2. Completely replace the existing fridge power cable and plug with a three core cable / three pin plug, connecting live and neutral as before to the fridge and connecting the earth to the earth point on the back of the fridge?

Or something else?

I suspect that option 1 would be the easier of the two above, albeit the least attractive to look at, unless I cover the whole cable with a cable sheath.

Option 2 seems to be harder as the cable is (I believe) hard wired into the fridge and would require that I at least purchase a soldering iron to remove the existing power cable and install the new three core cable. Certainly option two would look much better though.

I had hoped that their would be some kind of adapter already on the market for this purpose, as I have seen many products that come with two pin plugs and a separate earthing cable, but no way to connect to the earth of a socket. Presumably you'd know of something if it existed?

[dotcom]

Since the wire is mostly hidden behind the fridge I'd go with option 1.

Look for 1 of these at your local elec supply store.

[david96]

There is an adaptor on the Thai market that will convert from 2 pin to 3 pin, they have an earth lug to connect an earth wire.

All class 1 electrical equipment should be earthed with an approved 3 pin plug and 2 core with earth enclosedTPS flex cable. Some heating equipment require cotton covered flex cord eg irons.

Class 2 equipment is double insulated, no earthing. 2 core flex only.

Instal RCDs or RCBOs (DIN rail mounting preferable) on all final subcircuits.

Examples of class 1 electrical equipment. Irons,rice cookers,refrigerators, air conditioners,water heaters, cooking and heating appliances, 3pin power boards etc. Look for the double square mark on equipment that is class 2 double insulated. All permanently connected equipment that is not class 2.

Check connections before connecting to source of supply, observe polarity E-N-L Thai socket, E-L-N AS/NZ socket.

Clockwise looking at the front of the socket. If switched sockets are used the swich must operate in the L or A active

conductor.

[Crossy]

There is an adaptor on the Thai market that will convert from 2 pin to 3 pin, they have an earth lug to connect an earth wire.

Class 2 equipment is double insulated, no earthing. 2 core flex only.

Sadly our OP has the opposite problem, 3 pin outlets and a 2 pin fridge with a supplied separate ground wire. I've never seen an adaptor to go that way, 3-pin plugs are hard enough to find

Difficult to say if it really is double insulated (which it ought to be with only a 2-pin plug), if it were, why give it a ground lug?

Edited February 9, 2009 by Crossy

[longball53098]

I guess it should be determined if the frig is actually Double insulated. If this is not possible I think I would use the ground wire provided, attach it to the lug and rewire the plug with a 3 prong plug using the attached ground wire. OP commented it may look bad but most wires/plugs are in the rear of the appliance and should not be too visible to be an issue. I would use something like plastic/nylon ties to secure the ground wire down the length of the power cord to where it will enter the plug just to keep things neat and tidy. Should work and be safe.

[TomBrown]

Thanks Crossy, Dotcom and Longball for your advice.

I believe that the two prong mains cable is not double insulated.

It looks like I'll cut off the current two prong plug and put on a three pin plug and include the existing earth cable as necessary.

Presumably there is no difference between the current two prongs on the plug, unlike in the UK with live and neutral wires to be connected correctly?

Thanks, Tom.

[JetsetBkk]

I simply connected the supplied earth wire to one of these:

...and plugged it into a spare socket next to the washing machine.

Already posted here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Electrical-Q...t&p=2163197

[dotcom]

Thanks Crossy, Dotcom and Longball for your advice.

I believe that the two prong mains cable is not double insulated.

It looks like I'll cut off the current two prong plug and put on a three pin plug and include the existing earth cable as necessary.

Presumably there is no difference between the current two prongs on the plug, unlike in the UK with live and neutral wires to be connected correctly?

Thanks, Tom.

The engineers who design this stuff clearly see no need to ensure polarity. You can trace the wires to see which is live & neutral at the fridge.

Adding the ground as you have described will cause no harm.