Equality For Thai Wives

[CosmicSurfer]

You are reading that wrong. In the left column “his/her spouse” applies if the applicant is a child. In that column, you want to look at spouse in this context: “2.18 In the case of a family member of a Thai(applicable only to parents, spouse…” and this is indeed not discriminating based on gender.

The discrimination is in the middle column: “(6) In case of marriage with a Thai lady, the husband who is an alien must have…”. This means that in all other cases of a foreigner married with a Thai national, this requirement does not apply.

--

Maestro

In legal terms, Maestro may be correct, but in De Facto application, we know that this does not happen, and that the Immigration Officers will interpret this anyway their mood strikes them, usually following the "Letter" of the rule as written.

To assume that they would think about the Legal interpretation of the sequence between the written word "Spouse", vs "Thai Wife", is to apply to them an interpretive sense that we know is beyond their powers of logical analysis.

My 2 Cents,

CS

[CosmicSurfer]

Again, you are still missing the point....

The perception is like wise......

I have no doubt in the correctness of the premise, but have many doubts about the powers that be taking it seriously. Just looking around the bars in Pattaya, can imagine the powers that be saying "<deleted>, do we really want to let these dregs have a thai passport". You'll have the russian maffia getting married at the drop of a hat.

Anyway, either which way its a win for me

No one is talking about getting a Thai passport here... this thread is about the "O" Visa "EXTENSION", for Foreign men married to Thai women... and the Discrimination and Gender Inequality in the application of this provision.

Not sex tourists and drunkards... which you seem to know more about than I do.

CS

[skippybangkok]

If the inequality actually does exist, the REMEDY is apply the same standard to farang wives, NOT apply the lack of standards to farang husbands.

These standards protect the Immigrant as mucn as they do Thailand! What is the push of this thread, anyway? that any farang man, with no means, can get in?

Didn't one Thai wife say of this Post, "let sleeping dogs lie" <good idea, listen to her !

Why deprive some farang woman the 'possible' right to marry the Thai tuk tuk driver of her dreams? Why deny her the right of living in poverty?

Bingo, that was my point. Can imagine the guy making the ruling with a wide smirk, saying "thanks for bringing this to our attention ", and revise the ruling for Women farang to be same as men.

[Mario2008]

I completely agree with you... just making a point.

The plan you propose make more sense and is more likely to be successful.

The difficulty will be finding the perfect test case. If the husband of the Thai woman who files the case qualifies under the current system for a visa extension, then no damage caused and they may not even hear the case. I don't think just the fact that the regulations are unequal is enough, I believe that you would have to find someone who was actually damaged by this dual policy

So it will most likely need to be someone whose family is likely to be or has already been broken up over this. I also believe a lot more people would be willing to help to prevent a family from being torn apart rather than just some people saying that the rules aren't fair.

Anyone out there in this position?

There is no need to get a perfect case. People who can file a petition to the national human rights commision or the ombudsman need to be under a real treath of their rights being abused. That the husband at this moment meets the requirements doesn't mean he will so next year. being on an extension of stay based on marriage to a Thai national will be enough.

Also note that in the case brought before the Thai constitutional court by the ombudsman there was no specific sample case, the law it self was brought to question not a case.

[skippybangkok]

Not sex tourists and drunkards... which you seem to know more about than I do.

Making it personal are we ? Maybe take your lack of rights to stay in this country out on others. After all, you could apply for a PR as a married man.....if you qualify that is !

Edited December 15, 2008 by skippybangkok

[CosmicSurfer]

If the inequality actually does exist, the REMEDY is apply the same standard to farang wives, NOT apply the lack of standards to farang husbands.

These standards protect the Immigrant as mucn as they do Thailand! What is the push of this thread, anyway? that any farang man, with no means, can get in?

Didn't one Thai wife say of this Post, "let sleeping dogs lie" <good idea, listen to her !

Why deprive some farang woman the 'possible' right to marry the Thai tuk tuk driver of her dreams? Why deny her the right of living in poverty?

Bingo, that was my point. Can imagine the guy making the ruling with a wide smirk, saying "thanks for bringing this to our attention ", and revise the ruling for Women farang to be same as men.

As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, doomsayers notwithstanding, this would never happen...

Thai men would NEVER allow their wives to be put in this position.

And being as in Thai culture Men count more than Women here what they say means more.

CS

[Mario2008]

Just read the immigration act: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...gration_Act.pdf

It is seems that the immigration act itself does not discriminate or otherwise violates human rights. It are indeed the ministerial regulations that are not in line with the Thai constitution and various international treaties Thailand is party too. That should make it less difficult.

[CWMcMurray]

Well that's good to hear.

[OlRedEyes]

How many Thai men / farang women marriages would be affected if the courts simply re-worded the relavent acts to be equal - but at the less farang freindly terms.

That is indeed a good point. A Thai court could only say that the rules must be equal for men and women. Not that the rules for Thai men would have to be applied for Thai women married to a foreigner too.

The Thai human rights commission is an option and is free. They will come with a stetement and present it to parlement. Then it would be up to parlement to do something.

But I'm interested in why the attempt George mentioned failed.

I cannot be arsed to get involved, call me whatever you want, but I never litigate. I can however see that it is an important issue to many, and I personally think that it could be addressed, albeit with a lot of effort and money put in.

Thailand, as far as I know, is a signatory to the UN human rights agreement. Now I know that the South African constitution forbids the splitting of families, therefore the spouse of a South African national must be given SA citizenship as long as he/she has no criminal record. I don't know if this flows from the UN charter or not, but I'd imagine the UN charter should contain something re the splitting of families.

What I am saying is that it may be better to take that route? Seems to me that to fight for years and then coming up with a result that is equal for male/female, but still effectively leaves them running around for visas for the rest of their lives (even if slightly easier) is not worth the effort.

Edited December 16, 2008 by OlRedEyes

[ubonjoe]

A lot of effort yes. The money factor could be small per individual if we can get enough people involved and contributing.

[ubonjoe]

No comments since my last post.

We need some help keeping this alive.

[CosmicSurfer]

No comments since my last post.

We need some help keeping this alive.

Thanks for mentioning this.... I can't carry the ball by myself.

I guess the next logical thing to do is to meet and try and get better organized.

If you are interested, please do 2 Things....

1) Post here to keep this Thread alive on the front page.

2) Send me a PM with your Contact info....

Email.. Mobile Number, etc, so we can discuss meeting details.

Now.. as the Saying goes here in the Big Mango,

"It's Up-2-U"

CS

[skippybangkok]

We need some help keeping this alive

Dont worry, will do my duty in this respect.

[jackr]

Op, you've got your head in the clouds ole mate. I'm with torrenova and the other perceived by you 'naysayers' that have differeing opinions than yourself. Nice in theory, but asking for same same rights men and women in countries of this nature in Asia is folly and will more than likely end up with us being more closely scrutinised and made to jump through even more hoops. Don't fix something that ain't broke, don't poke your nose into another country's business (even through the missus) and don't rock the boat; just enjoy what time you have here

[CosmicSurfer]

Op, you've got your head in the clouds ole mate. I'm with torrenova and the other perceived by you 'naysayers' that have differeing opinions than yourself. Nice in theory, but asking for same same rights men and women in countries of this nature in Asia is folly and will more than likely end up with us being more closely scrutinised and made to jump through even more hoops. Don't fix something that ain't broke, don't poke your nose into another country's business (even through the missus) and don't rock the boat; just enjoy what time you have here

So Sorry... But "Broke" is in the perception of the User.

I'm a Boat Rocker from Way back....

Too old to change now.

If you want to be treated in a civil manner and don't like jumping through hoops then stand up on 2 feet and be counted.

And if you had read my "signature" at the bottom of my Posts, you wouldn't ask that I ignore issues like this...

Especially when they directly effect me and my Family. Nor is that an example I want to set for my Thai children, if I should have any.

Finally, time marches on and Change Happens... Cultures that bury their heads in the sand, soon disappear.

You may like living in the Stone Age, but for the good of Thailand, Thai culture MUST evolve... like all living things.

By your way of Thinking, Obama should have given up and gone back to the Plantation.

"YES - WE CAN!!!!!!"

A defiant Old Hippie,

CS

[Mario2008]

Im not on an extension based on marriage myself, but I'm willing to give my support.

Noticed how the new PM also hold a speech in English, not just Thai. It is a good sign. I'm not that pessimistic about the chance of succeeding. And in my deelings with the Thai government I found high ranking offcials like governours and ministers highly accesible. More so then in my own country.

About the cost I'm not worried. You don't need a lawyer, just a good presentation of the facts.

[CosmicSurfer]

It would be good if people not only "Voted", but also left a post (of Support, of course... Think Positive) so we could contact them later.

Thanks,

CS

[ubonjoe]

Yes we need votes and comments.

[ubonjoe]

Im not on an extension based on marriage myself, but I'm willing to give my support.

Noticed how the new PM also hold a speech in English, not just Thai. It is a good sign. I'm not that pessimistic about the chance of succeeding. And in my deelings with the Thai government I found high ranking offcials like governours and ministers highly accesible. More so then in my own country.

About the cost I'm not worried. You don't need a lawyer, just a good presentation of the facts.

Thanks mario.

[CosmicSurfer]

Attention All fellow Members,

There has been 2 threads going on this Topic, one including a residency poll to record support by region. But things have sort have fallen off-track in the support registration process. As of this post, there are approximately 53 members that have voted their support in the First Poll, plus more that have indicated support in the other thread. There has also been a Technical problem with the recording of votes in the other poll. Forum Mod 'Sabaijai' has suggested that both the other threads be Merged into this New thread and a new Poll be taken on this much Clearer question.

But very few Members have actually contacted me to indicate their willingness to get involved.

Also, some Members have gotten sidetracked by the Larger and much More complicated isssues of Thai Nationality or Permanant Recidency.

We MUST stick to the easier and more correct issues of Gender Equality, and the Internationally accepted Right of a Wife to maintain a Unified Family, in the application of any Immigration rules.

Other Issues can be addressed after a successful conclusion on this point. Too much change, too fast, can only lead to a negative resolution as heals are dug in and the Forces of 'Thai Nationalism' and 'Cultural Protectionism' create a isolationist attitude.

With this in mind, and as I can't carry the ball myself, I request that Members willing to involve themselves.. and MOST ESPECIALLY, their Wives, to please Vote in the Poll above, and Register their support by PLEASE, posting here in this Thread, so We can record your ID for future Communication.

This is an Issue that effects all Members, either Directly or Indirectly.

It's important to the entire Expat community to have a True and Democratic reflection of support before proceeding with this Issue.

Thank you

CS

[ubonjoe]

I have already voiced my suppot on the other topics.

You aready have my contact info.

[CosmicSurfer]

Thank you to the Members that voted to be "Added to the Contact List"... or saying that their Wives are willing to get Involved...

BUT...

If you don't add your Post HERE in this thread, We have NO WAY of knowing who you are, or how to contact you.

PLEASE... PLEASE... PLEASE post here, so we have a record of your interest.

Thank You,

CS

[wolfmanjack]

I voted for Yes, I support "Gender Equality"; Add me to your Contact List. I do not know how much my wife would want to get involved since she is busy with her shop but I want to be added to the contact list.

[ubonjoe]

Thank you to the Members that voted to be "Added to the Contact List"... or saying that their Wives are willing to get Involved...

BUT...

If you don't add your Post HERE in this thread, We have NO WAY of knowing who you are, or how to contact you.

PLEASE... PLEASE... PLEASE post here, so we have a record of your interest.

Thank You,

CS

If you do not wish to make a post you can send me a PM to me.

Just putting equal in the subject block will be enough.

[sabaijai]

I've merged the new poll with posts from the old poll. I voted 'support'.

[ubonjoe]

I've merged the new poll with posts from the old poll. I voted 'support'.

Could you or are another mod please add a line to the OP telling them to please make a post when they vote. Or as I suggested a PM to me with just equal in the subject line.

[Lite Beer]

I've merged the new poll with posts from the old poll. I voted 'support'.

Could you or are another mod please add a line to the OP telling them to please make a post when they vote. Or as I suggested a PM to me with just equal in the subject line.

I have done that Joe. If you think it needs changing let me know.

[Mario2008]

Maybe we can make a list of other Thailand forums and ask for support there, so we get more responses and greater involvement.

[CosmicSurfer]

I've merged the new poll with posts from the old poll. I voted 'support'.

Could you or are another mod please add a line to the OP telling them to please make a post when they vote. Or as I suggested a PM to me with just equal in the subject line.

I have done that Joe. If you think it needs changing let me know.

Looks Good... Thanks,

CS

[Mario2008]

Note that it aren't only the Thai wives, but also the Thai children with a foreign father who are discriminated against by the immigration rules. Children have their own rights, which are also trempled upon.