Chanting

[fabianfred]

personally I don't believe that merely chanting any sutra or mantra is going to get you enlightened.....it may help turn your mind towards the dhamma and thence start to PRACTISE

Edited December 5, 2008 by sabaijai

[sabaijai]

personally I don't believe that merely chanting any sutra or mantra is going to get you enlightened.....it may help turn your mind towards the dhamma and thence start to PRACTISE

The Theravada take on it is that chanting is a samatha or tranquility practice, like some kinds of meditation. We can split this topic into two if members want to discuss the relative merits of the Nichiren approach now that the airport is open again

[chutai]

personally I don't believe that merely chanting any sutra or mantra is going to get you enlightened.....it may help turn your mind towards the dhamma and thence start to PRACTISE

The Theravada take on it is that chanting is a samatha or tranquility practice, like some kinds of meditation. We can split this topic into two if members want to discuss the relative merits of the Nichiren approach now that the airport is open again

Although chanting isn't exclusively practiced in the Nichiren tradition; I think this a good idea to splt the thread in two as it will provide the opportunity to discuss and clarify the subject and to answer other perhaps more semantic questions, e.g. Post #20.

[sabaijai]

Done.

Split from the 'Buddhism and the airport situation' thread. For latecomers, the topic here is the effectiveness of chanting 'nam myoho renge kyo' (the Nichiren/SGI path) or other mantras.

[chutai]

Done.

Split from the 'Buddhism and the airport situation' thread. For latecomers, the topic here is the effectiveness of chanting 'nam myoho renge kyo' (the Nichiren/SGI path) or other mantras.

Firstly, many thanks to sabaijai [more than just a name...; ) ] for providing an opportunity to discuss other than is usual on a predominantly Theravadan forum. Especially that practiced within the Nichiren tradition.That is, the chanting of "the one essential phrase" of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

Firstly let me address "fabianfred's" misunderstanding of the term to "practise":

personally I don't believe that merely chanting any sutra or mantra is going to get you enlightened.....it may help turn your mind towards the dhamma and thence start to PRACTISE

Practice simply means "action". Chanting as a single-practice may not be effacious from a purely sectarian or theoretical standpoint , but it certainly leads to happiness (and more) for those that practice it. We could debate what exactly we mean by "enlightenment" and would no doubt differ somewhat in interpretation. So perhaps that's best left for another time.

Although I'll just add that in a sense chanting could be defined as being more active than meditation , insomuch that the practice of vocalising, reciting and chanting is more engaging than silent, interior meditation - simply exploring and withdrawing into the private realms of the inner life. However, this is not being said from an advocacy the superiority of one form of practice over another over the other - only to stress the point concerning the word 'practice'.

I would also point out that chanting is also a form of meditation in the literal sense as meditation - in a Buddhist context - means something like "mind cultivation", or "heart cultivation"; mind and heart not being viewed as mutually exclusive in a Buddhism. If looked at from the point of view of mind cultivation, mantra recitation clearly falls within that category and constitutes an effective and powerful means for the cultivation of the mind and heart. And what is being cultivated in mantra recitation? Like all Buddhist traditions, what is being cultivated is wisdom, courage and compassion.

From a doctrinal point of view the reason that Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism we usually use only the one single practice of recitation of the mantra (I cannot speak for the Pure Land Buddhism and Vajrayana Buddhism traditions) is that given in The Three Great Secret Laws which represent Nichiren's embodiment of the Mystic (supramundane) Law , to which he was enlightened, in a form that all people can practice and thereby gain access to that Law/Dharma/Dhamma/Truth within their own lives. He associated the Three Great Secret Laws with the three types of learning set forth in Buddhism - precepts, meditation, and wisdom. Specifically, the object of devotion corresponds to meditation, the sanctuary to precepts, and the daimoku of chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo to wisdom.

So essentially, within the Nichiren tradition, the chanting of daimoku is viewed as encapsulating all previous practices and observances as was discovered in the Life Span" (sixteenth) chapter of the Lotus Sutra and remained hidden or unknown until Nichiren revealed them. Nichiren regarded them as the vital teaching that Shakyamuni Buddha transferred to Bodhisattva Superior Practices in the "Supernatural Powers" (twenty-first) chapter of the sutra. The Three Great Secret Laws (secret because they remained hidden in chapter sixteen of the LS) represent Nichiren's embodiment of the Mystic Law, to which he was enlightened, in a form that all people can practice and thereby gain access to that Law (Shakyamuni Buddha) within their own lives.

Or perhaps it's best put more practically, as in the words of SGI President Ikeda in a recent interview in Tricycle Buddhist magazine, as being that: "Nichiren's approach is both so accessible and so practical... it enables ordinary people to cultivate the vast energy and wisdom they already possess within."

However, whether those that practice either chanting or meditation as a single-practice, or utilise both , we ought not to lose sight of our common goal: liberation from suffering.

[sabaijai]

I have a question, Chutai. Is there any particular reason this chanting of the name of the Lotus Sutra is done in a Japanese approximation of Chinese rather than in Chinese or, indeed, the original Sanskrit in which the Lotus Sutra was committed to written text?

[fabianfred]

I don't think the buddha kept any of his teachings secret...for just a special few....maybe normal non-noble people like to do things like that.

And if various chants are encapsulated into a single verse...because we are too lazy maybe to learn it all...is this going to be effective?...seems a bit like the Tibetans revolving their prayer-wheels....a rite or ritual which appeases the ignorant or lazy, but hardly the real thing or likely to get one to liberation.

Practising the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is the quickest and most certain way to Nirvana.

Chanting may help purify a rough mind and lead it to the true practise.

[chutai]

I have a question, Chutai. Is there any particular reason this chanting of the name of the Lotus Sutra is done in a Japanese approximation of Chinese rather than in Chinese or, indeed, the original Sanskrit in which the Lotus Sutra was committed to written text?

1. We should keep in mind that Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is originally described by Chinese pictograms as the Chinese language literally paints a picture for each word it describes. Each of these words is literally a novel unto itself.

2. Another important reason why Nam-myoho-renge-kyo should be chantedas its founder, Nichiren, taught. Namely, because that's what its founder, Nichiren, taught. He was certainly not conversant with any Latin-based language at that time, but he did know Japanese, Chinese and Sanskrit. To him, these were the languages of the world he knew and he incorporated them.

Although Nam is the Sanskrit word preceding the Japanese pronunciation of Chinese characters The word Nam is an abbreviated form of the Sanskrit word, Namaste, which can translate as devotion. Nam of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo means devotion to the Lotus Sutra or, more precisely, the teachings of and principles contained in that sutra.

The full translation of Nam is Namaste which could, in personal interaction, be defined as saying: "I honour the place in you where the entire universe resides. I honor the place in you of love, of truth, of peace and of light and when you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us."

Perhaps not a little unlike the word "koon" in Thai which has several meanings, all exhalting the recipricant to an extrodinarily esteemed level.

It seems to me that Nichiren preceded the essential phrase with the Sanskrit word "Nam" because it conveyed the profundity of the five syllables that follow. Perhaps using any other word would convey something more akin to paying lip service rather than in inspiring the deep devotion to that which is contained in the Chinese characters that constitute Myoho-Renge-Kyo ?

[jamesc2000]

Practising the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is the quickest and most certain way to Nirvana.

Chanting may help purify a rough mind and lead it to the true practise.

"Practising the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is the quickest and most certain way to Nirvana."

You know this from personal experience?

"Chanting may help purify a rough mind and lead it to the true practise."

You know this from personal experience too?

Purify a rough mind? Could you explain what a rough mind and what a pure mind is please.

[sabaijai]

I have a question, Chutai. Is there any particular reason this chanting of the name of the Lotus Sutra is done in a Japanese approximation of Chinese rather than in Chinese or, indeed, the original Sanskrit in which the Lotus Sutra was committed to written text?

2. Another important reason why Nam-myoho-renge-kyo should be chantedas its founder, Nichiren, taught. Namely, because that's what its founder, Nichiren, taught. He was certainly not conversant with any Latin-based language at that time, but he did know Japanese, Chinese and Sanskrit. To him, these were the languages of the world he knew and he incorporated them.

That makes sense. Given that our shared mother tongue is English (I assume), and we don't know Japanese, Chinese or Sanskrit well, why not chant in English?

If the sound itself is not important, then it should not matter what language is used as long as the 'Homage to the Lotus Sutra' is preserved.

OTOH if the Lotus Sutra contains some mystical power encoded in sound, then it would seem that Sanskrit, the original written language, would be the only choice (rather than Chinese or Japanese), spiritually speaking . 'Nam' (literally 'name', but in this context, 'homage'), as you say, is Sanskrit already.

[rockyysdt]

Practice simply means "action". Chanting as a single-practice may not be effacious from a purely sectarian or theoretical standpoint , but it certainly leads to happiness (and more) for those that practice it. We could debate what exactly we mean by "enlightenment" and would no doubt differ somewhat in interpretation. So perhaps that's best left for another time.

Although I'll just add that in a sense chanting could be defined as being more active than meditation , insomuch that the practice of vocalising, reciting and chanting is more engaging than silent, interior meditation - simply exploring and withdrawing into the private realms of the inner life.

My understanding is that chanting has multiple benefits.

The sound of a chant or mantra recitation can have a powerful vibrational quality. This can assist us with our focus or concentration.

Purification is also facilitated when ones chant or mantra includes sincerity and good intention.

Once established, vocal chanting or mantra recitation can be internalised, producing an even more powerful vibrational quality.

Regular recitation of well pronounced mantras and or chanting not only help build concentration, our appreciation of the consequent vibrational qualities can assist us to become more watchful and skillful in everyday speech.

Ultimately, there are many paths we can choose in our journey towards enlightenment, some more suitable to each of us than others.

[sabaijai]

Regular recitation of well pronounced mantras and or chanting not only help build concentration, our appreciation of the consequent vibrational qualities can assist us to become more watchful and skillful in everyday speech.

This is why I ask about the language/pronunciation. Does it matter? Does chanting any phrase give the same benefit?

[rockyysdt]

Regular recitation of well pronounced mantras and or chanting not only help build concentration, our appreciation of the consequent vibrational qualities can assist us to become more watchful and skillful in everyday speech.

This is why I ask about the language/pronunciation. Does it matter? Does chanting any phrase give the same benefit?

I've read that in Kabbalah pronouncing (sound and enunciation) a word correctly makes the difference between gaining access to power and futile exercise.

Sufi groups place emphasis on different mantra sounds as they resonate in various chakras and can cause transformations.

If you close your eyes and slowly vocalise the universal AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMM mantra, the A resonates in the heart, the U carries upward through the throat and the M goes out of the crown chakra.

Refining how you sound it alters the resonance and quality of the vibration.

Edited December 7, 2008 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

Practising the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is the quickest and most certain way to Nirvana.

Chanting may help purify a rough mind and lead it to the true practise.

"Practising the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is the quickest and most certain way to Nirvana."

You know this from personal experience?

"Chanting may help purify a rough mind and lead it to the true practise."

You know this from personal experience too?

Purify a rough mind? Could you explain what a rough mind and what a pure mind is please.

Both my teachers are generally recognised to be Arahants...although they will deny it....and they both recommend the practise of Vipassana as the best way to nirvana...

I would say a rough mind is one which is only just starting to take an interest in following the Dhamma and still some way to go before being ready to accept the true Dhamma with certainty and practise with vigour with Nirvana as the goal

Edited December 7, 2008 by fabianfred

[Brucenkhamen]

I've read that in Kabbalah pronouncing (sound and enunciation) a word correctly makes the difference between gaining access to power and futile exercise.

Sufi groups place emphasis on different mantra sounds as they resonate in various chakras and can cause transformations.

If you close your eyes and slowly vocalise the universal AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMM mantra, the A resonates in the heart, the U carries upward through the throat and the M goes out of the crown chakra.

Refining how you sound it alters the resonance and quality of the vibration.

I think most people would agree that chanting has value as a concentration practice, to bring the mind to a state where insight is possible.

However I'm pretty skeptical once you start talking about vibrations, resonance, perfect pronunciation etc. Sounds very esoteric and the Buddha didn't setup an esoteric path, only later followers did this.

Do you have any scientific or personal evidence to support your ideas around vibrations, resonance, perfect pronunciation etc?

[chutai]

Firstly,I apologise to sabaijai for not yet getting around to answering his question regarding the significance of sound ( although not mystical in the sense that I think that you use the term [1] ) because there is quite a bit of mileage in the question. This is a subject that I'll return to and explore later if you wish. However, as to the question of why chant in Sanskrit and recite potions of the Lotus Sutra in ancient Chinese isn't at all esoteric. It's simply that this is the least cumbersome and least time consuming method of recitation and that it acts as a kind of'Esperanto' for those practicing Nichiren Buddhism throughout the world. I would imagine that's a similar reason to using Pali when chanting in Theravada ?

But of the sound ? It's a question of the fundamental Law of life,Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, and our relationship to it. We could ask 'why?' of many things we don't fully understand; indeed, why do we call the universe, 'universe' or Thailand, 'Thailand' ? Of course, every word has a history, but exactly why particular sounds were chosen to designate particular objects or ideas is very difficult to see, even when those objects and ideas are familiar to us. Then again, the process by which the sounds of words conjure up images of their meaning in our minds is itself obscure and difficult to understand, and the effect they can have on us is even more incredible.

In short, all words have power. Words can make people happy or sad,angry or loving, and so on. Even the innocent words ''fish and chips" can send you scuttling off to the shop to buy some. Language has a more profound effect on our lives than we know. Nichiren Daishonin says: "They say that.... if you so much as hear the words 'pickled plum', your mouth will begin to water. Even in everyday life there are such wonders, so how much greater are the wonders of the Lotus Sutra."

Historically, Myoho-renge-kyo is the title and essence of the Lotus Sutra, the highest of Shakyamuni's teachings: in simple terms Nam-myoho-renge-kyo means to devote one's life to the ultimate Law of the universe that works in one harmonious, co-dependent, relationship.

Scientists and mathematicians use formulae and language which are quite incomprehensible to most other people, but they can convey even the most difficult concepts to each other with accurate use of these expressions. SGI President ,Daisaku Ikeda, says: "In the same manner, when we chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo...with faith in the Gohonzon [2], even if we don't understand its profound meaning, we can tap the condition of Buddhahood. Our voice chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo permeates the entire cosmos and reaches the life condition of Buddhahood and all the Buddhas in the universe. It also penetrates our lives,enabling us to unlock the palace of Buddhahood, or the supreme life condition of eternity, happiness, true self and purity" It is the same as music that, without any explanation, reaches and filters into people's hearts,calling forth a sympathetic response from them (see below).

The most important point to remember is that everyone who chants Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, whether highly intellectual or totally illiterate, can draw out of themselves the state of Buddhahood which influences all the other states in our life and guides our actions in the very midst of our day-to-day struggles and problems. In fact the proof of Buddhahood lays not in an abstract concept of Nirvana but in how we utilise our Buddha nature in surmounting the inevitable problems that we encounter. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is the essence of everyone's life, and when we chant this phrase it affects us in countless positive ways, from the very core of our lives, from the inside out.

[1]

"If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured through eternity and attain supreme enlightenment in this lifetime, you must awaken to the mystic truth that has always been in your life. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth within you." Nichiren Daishonin

In this context it's important to understand that 'mystic' does not mean magic, or imply deliberate vagueness of thought, but rather that which, though absolutely real, defies narrow rationality or transmission into words. In everyday life music is perhaps the best example which, in these terms, could be called 'mystic'

Whatever the effect of music upon us (and leaving aside music which is accompanied by a lyric) there is no rational explanation for why a series of sounds arranged in a particular way should do any of these things, and yet they do. Music is in this sense 'mystic'. It's effects cannot be explained either by studying the dots as they are written on the stave , or by somehow measuring and analyzing the sounds as they move through the air. Similarly, when Beethoven sat down and wrote, say, the Pastoral Symphony, his realization that those particular notes should be written order was also 'mystic'. If challenged to explain why he had set them in that way he would have almost certainly been at a loss other than to say that they expressed something within him that could not be expressed in any other way.

[2]

The Gohonzon is the object of devotion, in the form of a scroll or mandala, that practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism enshrine in their homes and is the focal point of their daily practice of morning and evening sutra recitation and chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. (Go means "honorable" and honzon, "object of devotion.")

[Brucenkhamen]

insomuch that the practice of vocalising, reciting and chanting is more engaging than silent, interior meditation - simply exploring and withdrawing into the private realms of the inner life.

Engaging for who, a third party observing? If you mean engaging for the person meditating or chanting then this hasn't been my experience, chanting like other concentration based practices can lead to and withdrawing into the private realms of the inner life, wheras insight based meditation when done correctly leads to a greater degree of lucidty and connection whith everything toching on your sense doors.

the object of devotion corresponds to meditation, the sanctuary to precepts, and the daimoku of chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo to wisdom.

How exactly does the recitation of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo lead to wisdom? Or the recitation of anything for that matter.

So essentially, within the Nichiren tradition, the chanting of daimoku is viewed as encapsulating all previous practices and observances as was discovered in the Life Span" (sixteenth) chapter of the Lotus Sutra and remained hidden or unknown until Nichiren revealed them. Nichiren regarded them as the vital teaching that Shakyamuni Buddha transferred to Bodhisattva Superior Practices in the "Supernatural Powers" (twenty-first) chapter of the sutra. The Three Great Secret Laws (secret because they remained hidden in chapter sixteen of the LS) represent Nichiren's embodiment of the Mystic Law, to which he was enlightened, in a form that all people can practice and thereby gain access to that Law (Shakyamuni Buddha) within their own lives.

Sounds a bit like the story of Joseph Smith and the tablets of gold hidden for centuries after Jesus went and taught the American Indians.

Personally i'm more willing to trust teachers who say something along the lines of "I've discovered this technique, it worked for me, I'm not sure if the Buddha ever did it but i encourage you to try it and see if it works for you". seems more honest.

[Brucenkhamen]

However, as to the question of why chant in Sanskrit and recite potions of the Lotus Sutra in ancient Chinese isn't at all esoteric. It's simply that this is the least cumbersome and least time consuming method of recitation and that it acts as a kind of'Esperanto' for those practicing Nichiren Buddhism throughout the world. I would imagine that's a similar reason to using Pali when chanting in Theravada ?

Here you appear to be saying that the choice of language is a matter of convenience, in that it's better that everyone chants the same thing rather than getting confused. If that's the case then it shouldn't matter what language everyone chanted in, nor even what words they used.

In Theravada chanting is done in Pali as that is the language the scriptures are preseved in, however chants are often done in the native tongue or line by line pali then native tongue, and of course we have more than just one phrase.

But of the sound ? It's a question of the fundamental Law of life,Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, and our relationship to it. We could ask 'why?' of many things we don't fully understand; indeed, why do we call the universe, 'universe' or Thailand, 'Thailand' ? Of course, every word has a history, but exactly why particular sounds were chosen to designate particular objects or ideas is very difficult to see, even when those objects and ideas are familiar to us. Then again, the process by which the sounds of words conjure up images of their meaning in our minds is itself obscure and difficult to understand, and the effect they can have on us is even more incredible.

Do you believe that because you've read it in a book, or because you've experienced it?

Sounds like a bit of a cop out to me, I've yet to read anything that shows how chanting has value beyond that of a concentration or devotional practice.

Scientists and mathematicians use formulae and language which are quite incomprehensible to most other people, but they can convey even the most difficult concepts to each other with accurate use of these expressions. SGI President ,Daisaku Ikeda, says: "In the same manner, when we chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo...with faith in the Gohonzon [2], even if we don't understand its profound meaning, we can tap the condition of Buddhahood. Our voice chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo permeates the entire cosmos and reaches the life condition of Buddhahood and all the Buddhas in the universe. It also penetrates our lives,enabling us to unlock the palace of Buddhahood, or the supreme life condition of eternity, happiness, true self and purity" It is the same as music that, without any explanation, reaches and filters into people's hearts,calling forth a sympathetic response from them (see below).

Scientists open up their results of their findings for other scientists to scrutinise and question and verify. In the same way the Buddha encouraged us to do with his path, I don't see any of that in your words.

What exactly happens when the cosmos is permeated? How will i know if my life has been penetrated? Sounds like a lot of high falooting new age nonsense.

As the topic is Buddhism I'd be interested to hear about what this technique has done for you and can do for me in terms of the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path rather than hear about the permeation of the cosmos etc.

The most important point to remember is that everyone who chants Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, whether highly intellectual or totally illiterate, can draw out of themselves the state of Buddhahood which influences all the other states in our life and guides our actions in the very midst of our day-to-day struggles and problems.

I'm sure the Buddha is kicking himself now, why oh why did he spend years of ascetic practice in search for the truth when all he needed to do was sing a song in broken chinese-japanese.

In fact the proof of Buddhahood lays not in an abstract concept of Nirvana but in how we utilise our Buddha nature in surmounting the inevitable problems that we encounter.

This I agree with.

Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is the essence of everyone's life, and when we chant this phrase it affects us in countless positive ways, from the very core of our lives, from the inside out.

So what does that mean? the world isn't composed of protons, electrons, and neutrons but rather Nam-myoho-renge-kyo?

In this context it's important to understand that 'mystic' does not mean magic, or imply deliberate vagueness of thought, but rather that which, though absolutely real, defies narrow rationality or transmission into words. In everyday life music is perhaps the best example which, in these terms, could be called 'mystic'

Whatever the effect of music upon us (and leaving aside music which is accompanied by a lyric) there is no rational explanation for why a series of sounds arranged in a particular way should do any of these things, and yet they do. Music is in this sense 'mystic'. It's effects cannot be explained either by studying the dots as they are written on the stave , or by somehow measuring and analyzing the sounds as they move through the air. Similarly, when Beethoven sat down and wrote, say, the Pastoral Symphony, his realization that those particular notes should be written order was also 'mystic'. If challenged to explain why he had set them in that way he would have almost certainly been at a loss other than to say that they expressed something within him that could not be expressed in any other way.

Well music is pretty cool, nobody is denying it, but it is manmade.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, if I'm coming across that way I apologise, but it strikes me that what you are saying makes no sense and you're are hiding behind the mystical, cosmical, fancyness of it all.

Now I'm sure chanting makes you feel good and settles your mind, but what benefit is there in maintaining a belief system on how it is the answer to everything?

Now if I saw something in there that indicated that you are talking about a technique that can lead to freedonm from greed hatred and delusion you'd catch my interest, but Pastoral Symphonies permeating the cosmos is like so 60's.

[rockyysdt]

I think most people would agree that chanting has value as a concentration practice, to bring the mind to a state where insight is possible.

However I'm pretty skeptical once you start talking about vibrations, resonance, perfect pronunciation etc. Sounds very esoteric and the Buddha didn't setup an esoteric path, only later followers did this.

Do you have any scientific or personal evidence to support your ideas around vibrations, resonance, perfect pronunciation etc?

No one really knows the answer to your question, as the path to enlightenment might be described more of an art than a provable science.

I also suspect that until a high level of progress has been achieved that different paths and techniques may be more suitable to some than others.

I believe experimenting with the quality and meaning of ones mantra or chant might be worthwhile.

Do you believe that Zen & Tibetan Buddhism are invalid as they also weren't set up by Buddha and came after his time?

[Brucenkhamen]

No one really knows the answer to your question, as the path to enlightenment might be described more of an art than a provable science.

I also suspect that until a high level of progress has been achieved that different paths and techniques may be more suitable to some than others.

I believe experimenting with the quality and meaning of ones mantra or chant might be worthwhile.

I agree.

I also think it's important when describing ones experiences with various techniques that once keeps ones terminology real.

Do you believe that Zen & Tibetan Buddhism are invalid as they also weren't set up by Buddha and came after his time?

No.

There is a lot that has been added to Buddhism of all schools, including Theravada, that is if not invalid is at least confusing the issue.

I find the beauty of Buddhas path is in it's elegant simplicity,

[jamesc2000]

I would say a rough mind is one which is only just starting to take an interest in following the Dhamma and still some way to go before being ready to accept the true Dhamma with certainty and practise with vigour with Nirvana as the goal

Would you say it is impossible to have a pure mind - if there is no interest in the Dhamma or having Nirvana as the goal?

Is having a pure mind a monopoly of Buddhist who following the Dhamma and practise with vigour with Nirvana as the goal?

[chutai]

Sounds a bit like the story of Joseph Smith and the tablets of gold hidden for centuries after Jesus went and taught the American Indians.

Reductio ad absurdum. This isn't the best start for the rest of your questions/synicism I must say. Most of which I'll choose not to reply to a I see no benefit in answering them. To do do would just to become embroiled in pedantic rhetoric; the engaging of ones small ego _ our own fundamental darkness.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, if I'm coming across that way I apologise, but it strikes me that what you are saying makes no sense and you're are hiding behind the mystical, cosmical, fancyness of it all.

I accept your apology. Although perhaps that would have been unnecessary if you'd utilised control over what you wrote in the first place ? Something that I also have learned in excercising skilfull means in communicating. The one major benefit that has been manifest on my long Buddhist path is that I've learned that my own mind should not be my master.

I am merely trying to cast off the shallow in order to reveal the profound. Many of your comments are, unfortunately, some way off of displaying a great deal of sensitive understanding. However, that you should find "agreement" with my comments about revealing ones Buddha nature in everyday life, shows at least the acknowledgement that everyone has this innate seed. All that's needed now is the means to reveal it. That is the main reason that we practice the chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

Namaste

[chutai]

I feel inclined at his juncture - without going into any vast explanations - some other manifest benefits experienced through chanting; that are far advanced from the misconception which assumes that it just makes anyone feel good.

Unites body, breath, voice, and mind.

Has healing effects. On the level of mind, chanting gradually, but effectively, overcomes distracted and scattered mind.

One experiences "the body and mind falling away." There is no longer a feeling of separation between the practitioner and the world.

That which gives us the opportunity to directly perceive interdependent transformation, the seed from which all the Buddha's teachings emerge.

That in which one can directly perceive the truth of constant change.

Allows us to directly experience the meaning of impermanence.

Facilitates a transformation of obsession from that to which we cling by transforming obsession into the path and into an opportunity for realization and awakening.

Chanting is often a social activity which differentiates chanting from silent forms of meditation. Silent meditation, even when done in a group, tends to isolate individuals.

In the chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo we realise that it's also superbly crafted for entering into the ultimate awakening, which the Lotus Sutra teaches is available to all living beings.

[sabaijai]

So there's no real reason to use Japanese pronunciation of a Chinese translation of Sanskrit then? We could just as well use any sounds to create the same effect, if I understand you correctly Chutai, to overcome a distracted and scattered mind or to unite body, breath, voice, and mind.

From the view of Pali Buddhism -- Theravada -- the chanting of mantras, use of visual cues for concentration, counting the breath and so on are all techniques of samatha or samadhi. The general results of such techniques are calmness and concentration, ie, they are not intended to liberate nor are they considered necessary or sufficient means for attaining liberation. Chanting/breath-following/candle-gazing, etc are instead used to prepare the practitioner for a higher level of practise meant to develop right view via vipassana or 'essential perception'.

According to the Pali sutras, since samadhi (which was well known on the Indian subcontinent long before Buddha came along) cannot generate the wisdom necessary to break the bonds of conditioning, the Buddha prescribed a specific route to developing wisdom, namely satipatthana: 'awareness (sati) development (patthana)'.

From the satipatthana perspective, sound is simply sound, and one sound is as good as another for developing mindfulness. In fact the Abhidhamma says that as soon as you favour one sound over another - as an object for mindfulness, that is - then sati/awareness is not present.

On the other hand if Nichiren/SGI/Tendai believe the phrase has supernatural power that transcends translation and rules of language, there's no debating the point as it belongs in the realm of mysticism.

[Brucenkhamen]

Sounds a bit like the story of Joseph Smith and the tablets of gold hidden for centuries after Jesus went and taught the American Indians.

Reductio ad absurdum. This isn't the best start for the rest of your questions/synicism I must say. Most of which I'll choose not to reply to a I see no benefit in answering them. To do do would just to become embroiled in pedantic rhetoric; the engaging of ones small ego _ our own fundamental darkness.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, if I'm coming across that way I apologise, but it strikes me that what you are saying makes no sense and you're are hiding behind the mystical, cosmical, fancyness of it all.

I accept your apology. Although perhaps that would have been unnecessary if you'd utilised control over what you wrote in the first place ? Something that I also have learned in excercising skilfull means in communicating. The one major benefit that has been manifest on my long Buddhist path is that I've learned that my own mind should not be my master.

I am merely trying to cast off the shallow in order to reveal the profound. Many of your comments are, unfortunately, some way off of displaying a great deal of sensitive understanding. However, that you should find "agreement" with my comments about revealing ones Buddha nature in everyday life, shows at least the acknowledgement that everyone has this innate seed. All that's needed now is the means to reveal it. That is the main reason that we practice the chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

Namaste

So you prefer to claim moral superiority rather than explain how the chanting you recommend is fruitful in terms of the Buddhist path? Or translate your high sounding words and those of your teacher into words ordinary people like me can understand?

I'm disappointed though I can't say I'm surprised as this is how religious operatives like to gain one up over their followers and have been doing so for centuries.

[Brucenkhamen]

Unites body, breath, voice, and mind.

Has healing effects. On the level of mind, chanting gradually, but effectively, overcomes distracted and scattered mind.

One experiences "the body and mind falling away." There is no longer a feeling of separation between the practitioner and the world.

I agree with all that, these benefits are common with all concentration based techniques.

That which gives us the opportunity to directly perceive interdependent transformation, the seed from which all the Buddha's teachings emerge.

That in which one can directly perceive the truth of constant change.

Allows us to directly experience the meaning of impermanence.

Facilitates a transformation of obsession from that to which we cling by transforming obsession into the path and into an opportunity for realization and awakening.

Can you please explain how that works, you are claiming that chanting has the benefits of a wisdom practice but I've yet to see an explanation on how that is possible.

Chanting is often a social activity which differentiates chanting from silent forms of meditation. Silent meditation, even when done in a group, tends to isolate individuals.

This is true.

In the chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo we realise that it's also superbly crafted for entering into the ultimate awakening, which the Lotus Sutra teaches is available to all living beings.

How? how does this magic phrase differ from other phrases?

On the other hand if Nichiren/SGI/Tendai believe the phrase has supernatural power that transcends translation and rules of language, there's no debating the point as it belongs in the realm of mysticism.

Good point. Maybe I'm wasting my time trying to get a rational explanation for something that isn't rational.

[fabianfred]

I would say a rough mind is one which is only just starting to take an interest in following the Dhamma and still some way to go before being ready to accept the true Dhamma with certainty and practise with vigour with Nirvana as the goal

Would you say it is impossible to have a pure mind - if there is no interest in the Dhamma or having Nirvana as the goal?

Is having a pure mind a monopoly of Buddhist who following the Dhamma and practise with vigour with Nirvana as the goal?

I am talking in the context of buddhism, but I would not deny that there are those of pure mind in other faiths...

I was probably thinking of the Buddhas example of the lotus buried in the mud and just starting to poke out into the water and start to receive some light..... as one who is just beginning to take an interest in the spiritual side of life

[fabianfred]

So there's no real reason to use Japanese pronunciation of a Chinese translation of Sanskrit then? We could just as well use any sounds to create the same effect, if I understand you correctly Chutai, to overcome a distracted and scattered mind or to unite body, breath, voice, and mind.

From the view of Pali Buddhism -- Theravada -- the chanting of mantras, use of visual cues for concentration, counting the breath and so on are all techniques of samatha or samadhi. The general results of such techniques are calmness and concentration, ie, they are not intended to liberate nor are they considered necessary or sufficient means for attaining liberation. Chanting/breath-following/candle-gazing, etc are instead used to prepare the practitioner for a higher level of practise meant to develop right view via vipassana or 'essential perception'.

According to the Pali sutras, since samadhi (which was well known on the Indian subcontinent long before Buddha came along) cannot generate the wisdom necessary to break the bonds of conditioning, the Buddha prescribed a specific route to developing wisdom, namely satipatthana: 'awareness (sati) development (patthana)'.

From the satipatthana perspective, sound is simply sound, and one sound is as good as another for developing mindfulness. In fact the Abhidhamma says that as soon as you favour one sound over another - as an object for mindfulness, that is - then sati/awareness is not present.

On the other hand if Nichiren/SGI/Tendai believe the phrase has supernatural power that transcends translation and rules of language, there's no debating the point as it belongs in the realm of mysticism.

This whole post is my exact thinking too....if only I was able to put into words as well as you do........ Sahdtu

To me Chutai's posts seem to be cut and paste from some on-line source...rather than his own words

Edited December 8, 2008 by fabianfred

[chutai]

So there's no real reason to use Japanese pronunciation of a Chinese translation of Sanskrit then? We could just as well use any sounds to create the same effect, if I understand you correctly Chutai, to overcome a distracted and scattered mind or to unite body, breath, voice, and mind.

Well. it's not exactly true to assume that we can use any sound to the same effect as we do in chanting a specific mantra. For instance, advertising is a good example of a secular technology that attempts to instill a repetitive message in our minds. Advertising jingles have a powerful tenaciousness. But what is their purpose? The purpose of advertising jingles is to instill desire. And why do advertising jingles attempt to instill desire in us? Because the premiss under which advertising operates is that the possession of material goods will bring us happiness. Chanting "Coca Cola" will not bring about a transformation in us because the object of attention is not capable of leading to such a transformation.

However, the mantra of Nichiren Buddhism draws our attention to the Lotus Sutra. The Lotus Sutra has two primary messages. Basically, the first message is that all beings have Buddha Nature and that they will some day become Buddhas. The second message is that the ability to awaken is eternally present, never absent, no matter what our circumstances, no matter how bleak our lives may appear. This eternal presence of the capacity for awakening is the eternal presence of the Buddha, compassionately assisting all beings in the great task of awakening to infinite wisdom and endless compassion.

The mantra of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo reminds us of our capacity to awaken to the presence of eternity, manifesting as infinite wisdom and compassion, in all sentient beings. We need to be reminded of this because in our daily lives we can become filled with distractions of all kinds, we loose our direction.

From the view of Pali Buddhism -- Theravada -- the chanting of mantras, use of visual cues for concentration, counting the breath and so on are all techniques of samatha or samadhi. The general results of such techniques are calmness and concentration, ie, they are not intended to liberate nor are they considered necessary or sufficient means for attaining liberation. Chanting/breath-following/candle-gazing, etc are instead used to prepare the practitioner for a higher level of practise meant to develop right view via vipassana or 'essential perception'.

According to the Pali sutras, since samadhi (which was well known on the Indian subcontinent long before Buddha came along) cannot generate the wisdom necessary to break the bonds of conditioning, the Buddha prescribed a specific route to developing wisdom, namely satipatthana: 'awareness (sati) development (patthana)'.

From the satipatthana perspective, sound is simply sound, and one sound is as good as another for developing mindfulness. In fact the Abhidhamma says that as soon as you favour one sound over another - as an object for mindfulness, that is - then sati/awareness is not present.

On the other hand if Nichiren/SGI/Tendai believe the phrase has supernatural power that transcends translation and rules of language, there's no debating the point as it belongs in the realm of mysticism.

I do find somewhat ironic that you use all kind of terminology that is very far removed from the everyday life of the vast majority of people, and then say that Nam-myho-renge-kyo is in the realms of mysticism. What you've stated above is, I'm sure, scholarly and worthy of respect both in the context of Theravada Buddhism and perhaps Buddhology more generally. But how accessible and efficacious is it in leading people to the same liberation that the Buddha intended ? It's worth remembering that Shakyamuni used various means in conveying the Dharma, as commensurate to his hearers needs and understanding.

However, chanting is likewise deeply rooted in the Buddhist tradition. We should remember that, historically, chanting began immediately after the Buddha’s death. His disciples gathered together and worked his teachings into a form that could be chanted and thus spread to those beyond the original sangha.

This kind of repetitious chanting is very close in feeling, if not identical in structure, to mantra recitation. Some of the simpler rituals, such as chanting the Three Refuges, could easily become mantra like in both structure and feeling. I am suggesting here that mantra recitation grew naturally from the early Buddhist tradition of chanting doctrinal lists, and the simple ceremonies involving simple formulas, such as the Three Refuges, the names of the Buddha, and other widely used rituals.

Seen from this perspective, mantra recitation may be the oldest form of mental cultivation in the Buddhist world.

Edited December 10, 2008 by chutai

[Brucenkhamen]

Well. it's not exactly true to assume that we can use any sound to the same effect as we do in chanting a specific mantra. For instance, advertising is a good example of a secular technology that attempts to instill a repetitive message in our minds. Advertising jingles have a powerful tenaciousness. But what is their purpose? The purpose of advertising jingles is to instill desire. And why do advertising jingles attempt to instill desire in us? Because the premiss under which advertising operates is that the possession of material goods will bring us happiness. Chanting "Coca Cola" will not bring about a transformation in us because the object of attention is not capable of leading to such a transformation.

However, the mantra of Nichiren Buddhism draws our attention to the Lotus Sutra. The Lotus Sutra has two primary messages. Basically, the first message is that all beings have Buddha Nature and that they will some day become Buddhas. The second message is that the ability to awaken is eternally present, never absent, no matter what our circumstances, no matter how bleak our lives may appear. This eternal presence of the capacity for awakening is the eternal presence of the Buddha, compassionately assisting all beings in the great task of awakening to infinite wisdom and endless compassion.

The mantra of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo reminds us of our capacity to awaken to the presence of eternity, manifesting as infinite wisdom and compassion, in all sentient beings. We need to be reminded of this because in our daily lives we can become filled with distractions of all kinds, we loose our direction.

The mantra of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo reminds you of the Lotus Sutra because somebody told you that it relates to the Lotus sutra, not because there is anything special about the phrase.

Just as a phrase like "Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi" can only remind you not to kill if somebody tells you that is the meaning, the phrase has no power in and of itself.

If you told somebody that Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is a refreshing soft drink and by chanting it they would get such a refreshment I'm sure that it would give rise to desire in the mind, not transformation.

If you told somebody who had never heard of Coca Cola (if such a person exists) but was inspired by the Lotus sutra that chanting Coca Cola was the key to achieving awakening infinite wisdom and endless compassion, then they'd likely find that chanting Coca Cola would give rise to faith.

This is pretty common sense and I've yet to see you give any convincing reason otherwise.

I do find somewhat ironic that you use all kind of terminology that is very far removed from the everyday life of the vast majority of people, and then say that Nam-myho-renge-kyo is in the realms of mysticism. What you've stated above is, I'm sure, scholarly and worthy of respect both in the context of Theravada Buddhism and perhaps Buddhology more generally. But how accessible and efficacious is it in leading people to the same liberation that the Buddha intended ? It's worth remembering that Shakyamuni used various means in conveying the Dharma, as commensurate to his hearers needs and understanding.

As far as I can see sabaijai never claimed that any of the technical terms he used had any special power to them, he’s not claiming anything special is going to happen if you chant Satipatthana for example, this is the difference.

For example it’s perfectly acceptable for a doctor to use technical terms among other doctors without worrying about how accessible and efficacious for ordinary people they are.

Sabaijai may have assumed that amongst Buddhist friends the meaning would be understood but if you need clarification on any terms you are welcome to ask, just as I asked for clarification on terms such as “cosmos is permeated" and "life has been penetrated”

However, chanting is likewise deeply rooted in the Buddhist tradition. We should remember that, historically, chanting began immediately after the Buddha’s death. His disciples gathered together and worked his teachings into a form that could be chanted and thus spread to those beyond the original sangha.

Chanting started as a way to commit scriptures to memory as originally they weren’t written down, this is a very different purpose from that which you are advocating.

This kind of repetitious chanting is very close in feeling, if not identical in structure, to mantra recitation. Some of the simpler rituals, such as chanting the Three Refuges, could easily become mantra like in both structure and feeling. I am suggesting here that mantra recitation grew naturally from the early Buddhist tradition of chanting doctrinal lists, and the simple ceremonies involving simple formulas, such as the Three Refuges, the names of the Buddha, and other widely used rituals.

Seen from this perspective, mantra recitation may be the oldest form of mental cultivation in the Buddhist world.

I think you’ll find the use of mantras as a concentration technique pre-dates Buddhism and it’s used by some groups within almost all religions.

The problem only arises when one group decides that the phrase they are chanting is somehow special and in and of itself is the mainstay of their spiritual path.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Brucenkhamen