Matayom

[tutsiwarrior]

I have a step daughter that will finish prathom next March. I have now reached agreement with her mother that she should continue to mayathom with the objective of preparing for university matriculation. The step daughter will attend a public school in a tessaban town of about 20k pop. in Suphanburi. There is also the option of enrolling in a local, private 'catholic' school.

I would like to hear from forum members that presently teach at the mayathom level regarding the following:

- any special requirements (entrance/aptitude exams, etc.) that need to be completed at prathom prior to mayathom enrollment?

- do teaching staff at mayathom presume that students are there to prepare for university matriculation? If not, what other benefits can completion of mayathom provide with regard to further education, employment, etc.

- is there any formal counseling for university preparation provided at mayathom? If not is there an informal mentoring arrangement between teachers and students?

- are university bound students given any special preparation for entrance examinations? Is there one standard university entrance examination for all candidates or different exams according to the intended course of study?

No one in my wife's family has progressed beyond prathom so there are lots of questions. There are some people in town that I know who have had further education (business people with 'good' english) who I will also approach for advice.

thanx in advance...tutsi

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

I will preface this by stating that I teach EP English (M2-3) at a very large government school. My experiences may or may not apply to a smaller school in the Suphanburi province. It seems that you want your step-daughter to go to a good university, and you should be commended for that. I would recommend that you enroll her in a private school, or an EP program in Suphanburi, as the typical M1-M6 education in a government school is not likely to lead to success at the university level.

- any special requirements (entrance/aptitude exams, etc.) that need to be completed at prathom prior to mayathom enrollment?

I have heard some schools, especially in Isaan, have placement exams for M1 students (usually given in February of the entering year). Students are placed in better schools depending on how well they perform. My school does not use performance exams for placement in the regular program, but students are selected for the school depending on their marks and where they attended Prathom. Well-connected families and the wealthy can get their children placed into the school.

The EP program has formal placement tests and interviews. Our school can accept up to 60 EP students. Tuition is 40,000 baht/year. We average about 250 applicants.

- do teaching staff at mayathom presume that students are there to prepare for university matriculation? If not, what other benefits can completion of mayathom provide with regard to further education, employment, etc.

In the regular program, definitely not. The teachers are only interested in passing the students through the system (I am mostly referring to their Thai teachers, although I know several falang teachers who show no more interest in their students than their Thai counterparts). Completion through M3 is now compulsory. Many parents want their children to complete M6. I suppose it has some value in the job market, as Thais value educational degrees, but I see limited educational value in government schools.

It is different for the EP program. In EP, most of the students are university-bound. EP programs, as far as I am aware, only cover M1-M3. That means that M4 EP students are thrown into the general population, or attend boarding schools in Bangkok or abroad, when they have completed the program. My students not only learn important critical thinking skills, but also learn essay/report writing techniques which are required to compete at the university level. In addition, I employ practice TOEIC tests in my lessons, so as to give my students a leg up in their future professional careers.

- is there any formal counseling for university preparation provided at mayathom? If not is there an informal mentoring arrangement between teachers and students?

There is not formal university preparation advising like you would find in the west. Generally, because of the sheer numbers (student:teacher ratio), there is no admin staff member who fills this role. Students and parents can arrange for meetings to discuss these issues. In an EP program, students have advisors, but it has been my experience that these teachers lack the proper training and resources to be effective university preparation counselors. I really think a parent would have to push in order to get any effective advising for their child.

- are university bound students given any special preparation for entrance examinations? Is there one standard university entrance examination for all candidates or different exams according to the intended course of study?

There is a single national university entrance examination in Thailand and it is critical in determining not only what university a student may attend, but also what field of study he/she may pursue. There has been talk of each university giving its own entrance exam, but I don't believe this is a widespread practice. I think Siam University's hotel/tourism management school has its own entrance exam.

There are no preparation courses for the exam in government schools. Students are usually sent for private extra classes or to camps in order to prepare for the exam. Over 100,000 students take the exam each year, and about 45,000 score high enough to be admitted to a university.

[tutsiwarrior]

I will preface this by stating that I teach EP English (M2-3) at a very large government school. My experiences may or may not apply to a smaller school in the Suphanburi province. It seems that you want your step-daughter to go to a good university, and you should be commended for that. I would recommend that you enroll her in a private school, or an EP program in Suphanburi, as the typical M1-M6 education in a government school is not likely to lead to success at the university level.

- any special requirements (entrance/aptitude exams, etc.) that need to be completed at prathom prior to mayathom enrollment?

I have heard some schools, especially in Isaan, have placement exams for M1 students (usually given in February of the entering year). Students are placed in better schools depending on how well they perform. My school does not use performance exams for placement in the regular program, but students are selected for the school depending on their marks and where they attended Prathom. Well-connected families and the wealthy can get their children placed into the school.

The EP program has formal placement tests and interviews. Our school can accept up to 60 EP students. Tuition is 40,000 baht/year. We average about 250 applicants.

- do teaching staff at mayathom presume that students are there to prepare for university matriculation? If not, what other benefits can completion of mayathom provide with regard to further education, employment, etc.

In the regular program, definitely not. The teachers are only interested in passing the students through the system (I am mostly referring to their Thai teachers, although I know several falang teachers who show no more interest in their students than their Thai counterparts). Completion through M3 is now compulsory. Many parents want their children to complete M6. I suppose it has some value in the job market, as Thais value educational degrees, but I see limited educational value in government schools.

It is different for the EP program. In EP, most of the students are university-bound. EP programs, as far as I am aware, only cover M1-M3. That means that M4 EP students are thrown into the general population, or attend boarding schools in Bangkok or abroad, when they have completed the program. My students not only learn important critical thinking skills, but also learn essay/report writing techniques which are required to compete at the university level. In addition, I employ practice TOEIC tests in my lessons, so as to give my students a leg up in their future professional careers.

- is there any formal counseling for university preparation provided at mayathom? If not is there an informal mentoring arrangement between teachers and students?

There is not formal university preparation advising like you would find in the west. Generally, because of the sheer numbers (student:teacher ratio), there is no admin staff member who fills this role. Students and parents can arrange for meetings to discuss these issues. In an EP program, students have advisors, but it has been my experience that these teachers lack the proper training and resources to be effective university preparation counselors. I really think a parent would have to push in order to get any effective advising for their child.

- are university bound students given any special preparation for entrance examinations? Is there one standard university entrance examination for all candidates or different exams according to the intended course of study?

There is a single national university entrance examination in Thailand and it is critical in determining not only what university a student may attend, but also what field of study he/she may pursue. There has been talk of each university giving its own entrance exam, but I don't believe this is a widespread practice. I think Siam University's hotel/tourism management school has its own entrance exam.

There are no preparation courses for the exam in government schools. Students are usually sent for private extra classes or to camps in order to prepare for the exam. Over 100,000 students take the exam each year, and about 45,000 score high enough to be admitted to a university.

zap...brox, excellent reply, very informative. Looks like I need to make a wider assessment of the available resources in our area. From reading other threads on TV I had the impression that the standard mayathom curriculum in government schools would not be of much use for purposes of preparing for university.

[Scott]

Mathyom 1, 2 and 3 are lower Mathyom (G. 7,8, & 9). If a student's grades aren't good enough they may not be placed in upper Mathyom, 4,5, & 6. The school I work at routinely boots out a whole bunch of students at the end of M. 3 and does a whole new intake for upper Mathyom.

[PeaceBlondie]

Tutsi, I corrected the spelling of matayom only in the topic title,, but there are still different transliterations from Thai. Zappadeedoodiddlealottabox and Scott have answered well. I taught in the two largest, best, oldest state schools in a province, and one of them had a guidance counselor who screened applicants for M1. But M1 is far too early to think about uni.

If your step-daughter does very well in early matayom, she should prepare herself to go elsewhere for M4 to M6, unless her city has an exceptional program staffed by motivated teachers, and small class sizes.

[otherstuff1957]

The job market in Thailand is becoming increasingly competitive and education is a key factor. For instance, one of my wife's neices was working at a 7-11 a couple of years ago. She had to show them her M6 graduation diploma before she could start working.

Many jobs in Thailand that would go to a High School graduate in the States or in Europe, require a University degree here! As others have noted, education through M3 is now manditory, although that law probably isn't enforced very rigorously. After M3, students can either go on to finish M6 (which would probably be the best idea) or can go to a Polytechnic (trade) School for 3 years, or can just start working (with limited future options). After M6, students can either start working or go to a Wittyalai(sp?) or to a regular University.

A Wittyalai is a 2 year College that usually trains students to be accountants or secretaries or technicians of various sorts.

In terms of keeping her future options open, completing M6 is her best choice. I believe that there are entrance exams for M4 and maybe M1, but this is Thailand and no-one fails, so I wouldn't worry too much about them.*

* If she does fail, there's always the option of contributing to the School Director's "New Mercedes Fund", which will guarantee her a place in that school!

[tutsiwarrior]

The job market in Thailand is becoming increasingly competitive and education is a key factor. For instance, one of my wife's neices was working at a 7-11 a couple of years ago. She had to show them her M6 graduation diploma before she could start working.

Many jobs in Thailand that would go to a High School graduate in the States or in Europe, require a University degree here! As others have noted, education through M3 is now manditory, although that law probably isn't enforced very rigorously. After M3, students can either go on to finish M6 (which would probably be the best idea) or can go to a Polytechnic (trade) School for 3 years, or can just start working (with limited future options). After M6, students can either start working or go to a Wittyalai(sp?) or to a regular University.

A Wittyalai is a 2 year College that usually trains students to be accountants or secretaries or technicians of various sorts.

In terms of keeping her future options open, completing M6 is her best choice. I believe that there are entrance exams for M4 and maybe M1, but this is Thailand and no-one fails, so I wouldn't worry too much about them.*

* If she does fail, there's always the option of contributing to the School Director's "New Mercedes Fund", which will guarantee her a place in that school!

hmmm...Becker's 'Thai for Beginners' defines wiitiyalai as 'university' and here I've been ranting on to confused youngsters about wittiyalai (tutsi with a group of kids facing the Bangkok skyline from a high rise hotel room window gesticulating 'my darlings ja pai wittiyalai ti Krueng Thep!' - 'whats uncle tutsi on about??? we gots a wittiyalai back in Bang Li...')...

anyway...looks like there's still some room to maneouvre between matayom 1 -3 and 4 - 6 such that maybe the hard decisions need not be made yet...thanks for your input.

(cheers PB...thanks for the correction; looks like I transposed the 't' and the 'y'...)

[tutsiwarrior]

now I'm a bit confused...if it takes 6 years to complete matayom 1-6 then students won't start at university until reaching 21 y.o. (they finish prathom at 15)? Or are the 6 levels of matayom usually completed in less time?

Another question...my oldest niece quit school before finishing prathom and is now 18 y.o., intelligent and exhibits potential (good reading and writing skills). If she wanted to continue formal education what options does she have?

[way2muchcoffee]

- any special requirements (entrance/aptitude exams, etc.) that need to be completed at prathom prior to mayathom enrollment?

No, but many schools (the better ones) do have entrance exams. At some schools low grades in Prathom and low entrance exam scores will be ignored if the parent provides a 'donation' to the school.

- do teaching staff at mayathom presume that students are there to prepare for university matriculation? If not, what other benefits can completion of mayathom provide with regard to further education, employment, etc.

I agree with the posters above, more or less. In English Programs the presumption is that students will attend university. At many private schools the same is true. Government schools will vary greatly on this point.

I also agree that an M6 diploma would be the minimum acceptable education level for today. I would definitely target higher than that though.

- is there any formal counseling for university preparation provided at mayathom? If not is there an informal mentoring arrangement between teachers and students?

Again this will vary from school to school. If the school works under the assumption that most students will go on to university, then yes, they will usually provide both mentoring and counseling. Having said this, not all schools do this well, but some do.

- are university bound students given any special preparation for entrance examinations? Is there one standard university entrance examination for all candidates or different exams according to the intended course of study?

There is a nationwide entrance exam that is taken at the end of M6 (year 12) for admission to government universities. Private universities have their own admission procedures and they will vary with the quality of the institution.

Another question...my oldest niece quit school before finishing prathom and is now 18 y.o., intelligent and exhibits potential (good reading and writing skills). If she wanted to continue formal education what options does she have?

There are adult education courses available, both through the government and privately, that will provide an M6 diploma. They can be completed in a variety of ways: weekend classes, passing knowledge tests, classes held in the week. These programs vary greatly in quality and the time it takes to get the certificate.

now I'm a bit confused...if it takes 6 years to complete matayom 1-6 then students won't start at university until reaching 21 y.o. (they finish prathom at 15)? Or are the 6 levels of matayom usually completed in less time?

Prathom means primary school, i.e. grades 1 through 6. Mathayom, or secondary, means grades 7-12.

On another note, one poster above indicated that English Programs stop at M3. While some may do that, most offer classes up through M6, at least in BKK.

Edited December 9, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[tutsiwarrior]

W2MC, thanks for your input. For EP enrollment looks like an entrance/placement exam is required. If a student has had the usual thai government school preparation in English what would be her chances in obtaining the necessary result for admission? In other words is there a required English language proficiency level for EP enrollment?

The wife now sez that the daughter is starting M3 in April so I got it wrong...I have advised her re: the 'English Program' and she will check what's on offer at the gov't school and at the local 'catholic school', the latter is supposed to be 'the best' school in the district...they play hymms on their PA system early on Sunday morning...

I'll have a word with the 18 y.o. niece about adult education possibilities when I'm next at home ('ah ain't gonna be givin' youse money fer yew t' look beyootiful fer yer uncle tutsi no' mo'; now youse gonna haveta go to school...'). I'm gonna haveta motivate her to make the necessary enquiries.

[way2muchcoffee]

For EP enrollment looks like an entrance/placement exam is required. If a student has had the usual thai government school preparation in English what would be her chances in obtaining the necessary result for admission? In other words is there a required English language proficiency level for EP enrollment?

That will vary. If a school is over-enrolled then they will adhere to strict entrance exam results, particularly in English. If the school has available seats then this could be waived. Be aware though, your step-daughter is already entering M3. this poses two difficulties.

1) Most of the academic content in English Programs is taught in English. At her age it will be difficult to understand the teacher if her English skills, particularly listening skills, are low. The content at that level is fairly advanced and she is likely to have problems. Having said this, there are usually many students in any EP that have low English abilities and they somehow get by, usually through the help of their classmates.

2) Changing schools is frowned upon in Thailand. It may nearly impossible to switch schools after M2 and before M3. Most often schools will accept students staring in P1, P4, M1, and M4. I'm not sure the logic behind this, but that's how it usually works. Of course school administrators ofte make exceptions when appropriate inducements are offered.

Edited December 10, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[tutsiwarrior]

For EP enrollment looks like an entrance/placement exam is required. If a student has had the usual thai government school preparation in English what would be her chances in obtaining the necessary result for admission? In other words is there a required English language proficiency level for EP enrollment?

That will vary. If a school is over-enrolled then they will adhere to strict entrance exam results, particularly in English. If the school has available seats then this could be waived. Be aware though, your step-daughter is already entering M3. this poses two difficulties.

1) Most of the academic content in English Programs is taught in English. At her age it will be difficult to understand the teacher if her English skills, particularly listening skills, are low. The content at that level is fairly advanced and she is likely to have problems. Having said this, there are usually many students in any EP that have low English abilities and they somehow get by, usually through the help of their classmates.

2) Changing schools is frowned upon in Thailand. It may nearly impossible to switch schools after M2 and before M3. Most often schools will accept students staring in P1, P4, M1, and M4. I'm not sure the logic behind this, but that's how it usually works. Of course school administrators ofte make exceptions when appropriate inducements are offered.

On speaking to my wife recently on the phone (I work in Saudi and get home for short visits 3x per year) it appears that I had misunderstood a number of things about the step-daughter's status and the available secondary education arrangement. If we find after further investigation that the step-daughter has a shot at enrollment in an English Program there may be the possibility of finding a tutor to help her with English. However, prior to making any commitment she must have an understanding of the amount of work that will be required...gonna need to speak further with the wife in this regard.

Thanks for the heads up regarding possible difficulties with enrolling in an EP program at level M3-4. The wife will no doubt get the low down when she makes her inquiries.

[PeaceBlondie]

tuts, if they finish prathom 6 atage 12, they finish matayom M6 at age 18. If they count years western style.

[tutsiwarrior]

tuts, if they finish prathom 6 atage 12, they finish matayom M6 at age 18. If they count years western style.

well, ye know PB, TiT (or, so dey tell me) an' there ain't much a westerner can be sure of anymore...

naw, but seriously I thought that the step-daughter (15 y.o.) was just finishin' prathom in March, now the wife sez she's actually in M3, hence the confusion...de wife prob'ly thought there ain't no use explainin' the diff to a dumb falang... (she sez: 'let me handle this, tutsi...' )

[marshbags]

I,ve read the thread with interest and find it helpful and informative.

Without sounding negative in any way, regarding the tests for local government schools in Udonthani that i know of, via personal experience.

They initially charge for the stationary and documentation related to the pre entry tests ect. ( it is more than one would expect to pay for materials )

For those who fail, it is a useful vehicle to get additional funds ???? for the schools as if you have a desired amount of money, they are admitted in any case and failure in the sense becomes meaningless for those who can pay.

We are not talking mega Baht, but it still difficult for parents to afford it and yet feel obliged via peer pressure from within the schools, to make sacrifices and do so via loans and selling the family silver or gold in many cases.

This as one teacher told me lowers the standards of the pupils over the Matayorn years and class overloading is big time, making teaching slow at learning students or should i say of less ability very difficult if not impossible, without outside assistance.

Based on what i experienced and was told, i made the decision to keep my daughter in a private school which sadly, many of the victims of this under the table greed, cannot do so.

Also pupils / students at these gov. run schools have to pay for additional tutoring as a consequence of class sizes and the teachers no being able to spend more time with them.

Teaching must be very frustrating indeed for those in these kind of circumstances and difficult from a professional point of view.

Without sounding condescending....................

Credit is duly paid to those who, also have to make sacrifices when being undermined by these unscrupulous governors and officials who try, inspite of these hurdles, to make the best of the situation on behalf of their students.

marshbags

Edited December 14, 2008 by marshbags

[thaicbr]

Tutsi i work in a Catholic school near Bangkok and i would really, really suggest you go and have a look next time home. because they generally just want ya money. i did a 4 week summer program in our EP program and in each P6 class (4 in total)i had at least 1 student who could not even tell me their names, ages and what school they went to in a sentence . And thats after 5 years in EP. Thai's tend to be swayed with L.C.D screens in the lobby, swimming pools, big ponds e.t.c.

on the other hand i worked in a Government (tessaban) school that at least had very , very motivated teachers who really cared. but big classes and limited budget.

Allan

[tutsiwarrior]

marshbags and thaicbr thanks for your input. We intend to keep the girls at home during their matayom studies so we're limited to whatever's available locally. I'm presently relying on my wife to undertake the initial investigation and as I said before preparation for university is not something that she's familiar with. I'm hoping to get information from some folks in town that I know; the adult daughters of the local chinese beer and soft drinks distributor help him to run his business, appear to be well educated and speak OK english...one place to start...

I don't suppose there is any way of finding out how many graduates from a particular EP program actually made it to university?...or, can we say that if one pays enough money to successfully complete an EP program and then pays whatever amount is required to pass the entrance examination that enrollment of one's offspring in university is assured?

[otherstuff1957]

Tutsi, you also mentioned a niece who is older who never finished high school. There are adult education programs available in every, or almost every, province in Thailand. I know at least 3 people who completed their M6 degrees when they were in their 20's. Generally these programs involve weekend classes and lots of homework - they are set up for working adults who don't have time to go back to school full-time. I seem to recall that they had to study for 3 - 6 months for every year that they missed.

If you have your wife or niece check with your local Gov. Education Office (กระทรวงศึกษาธการ) they should be able to point her in the right direction.

[tutsiwarrior]

Tutsi, you also mentioned a niece who is older who never finished high school. There are adult education programs available in every, or almost every, province in Thailand. I know at least 3 people who completed their M6 degrees when they were in their 20's. Generally these programs involve weekend classes and lots of homework - they are set up for working adults who don't have time to go back to school full-time. I seem to recall that they had to study for 3 - 6 months for every year that they missed.

If you have your wife or niece check with your local Gov. Education Office (กระทรวงศึกษาธการ) they should be able to point her in the right direction.

yeah...like I said above, this issue is something that I will have to pursue personally with the involved niece on my next trip home. I am told that she has a 'good job' (ie., not selling noodles) and she certainly looks prosperous enough (although I suspect that she always looks her best when her uncle tutsi comes home on leave) so that motivation to complete her studies may have to be other than improvement of her income/circumstances (she's married and lives with husband's family). I presume that she could not attend wittiyalai (vocational school) without a matayom certificate and for this I could offer support in the amount that she would usually make at her present job. However, if she's already making 'good money' there may not be an adequate incentive.

I will direct her to the Gov. edu. office that you have indicated in thai language...now she ain't got no reason to be confused an' she always likes to please her uncle tutsi...