Ex-thai Pm Attempts To Block Govt Led By Opponents

[wayfarer108]

Toxin complains that the judicial system is unfair however he didn't complain when in 2001 he was let off the hook for asset concealment did he. Oh I wonder if the judge's son is still an executive of AIS?

Precisely. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[wayfarer108]

I am one of those farangs. And I was disgusted by how Thaksin used classic singaporean methods of strangling any oposition, such as suing anyone who criticized him for defamation, using formalities to shut down radio stations etc.

You can dig this forum back to early 2003. When Thaksin was in charge, you were able to say whatever you want. Later it was not always the case. I let you draw you own conclusion.

Wrong. Freedom of the press took a large dive during Thaksin's regime, as documented by Amnesty International, FACT and other international observers. He tried to have two farang journalists deported during his term, the only Thai PM ever to take such action in recent memory (in the 30 years I've been here anyway). For sure there was less freedom of the press than at any time in the late 80s or 1990s, ask any journalist who has worked here then as well as under Thaksin and is still here now.

[wayfarer108]

Only 50 000 people attending the meeting, despite huge publicity and organized transport.

the Truth Today

Does anyone else see the Orwellian correlation here? Where Big Brother (Toxin) preaches "The Truth?

Yep, goes well with such other Orwellian axioms as 'Buying votes is democracy.'

[erobando]

A coup is when a government is over thrown. It has never hap[pend in America. Only a child would say that one person is a party.

I'm going to take this quote away form the Lincoln discussion and apply it to Thailand.

In Western-type democracies, there are political parties that have relatively cohesive ideological platforms. The platforms are fluild, but generally one knows the idealogical and policy leanings of Democrats v Republicans or Conservative/Christian Democrat v Social Democrat and so on.

In Thailand, political parties are simply groups of people that band together because they view it as a way to gain power/help business interests, etc.

The problem with the TRT/PPP/PTP is that it increasingly seemed to be about one Person, and not about any actual long-term policies.

The Democrats? Not sure what they're long-term policies are either. Most of their last platform didn't really differ much from the PPP, particularly regarding social/rural development (which apparently was the reason rural northern/Isaan supported the PPP).

As long as Thai politics are only about People, we are are continuously going to experience these same problems.

[jbowman1993]

A coup is when a government is over thrown. It has never hap[pend in America. Only a child would say that one person is a party.

I'm going to take this quote away form the Lincoln discussion and apply it to Thailand.

In Western-type democracies, there are political parties that have relatively cohesive ideological platforms. The platforms are fluild, but generally one knows the idealogical and policy leanings of Democrats v Republicans or Conservative/Christian Democrat v Social Democrat and so on.

In Thailand, political parties are simply groups of people that band together because they view it as a way to gain power/help business interests, etc.

The problem with the TRT/PPP/PTP is that it increasingly seemed to be about one Person, and not about any actual long-term policies.

The Democrats? Not sure what they're long-term policies are either. Most of their last platform didn't really differ much from the PPP, particularly regarding social/rural development (which apparently was the reason rural northern/Isaan supported the PPP).

As long as Thai politics are only about People, we are are continuously going to experience these same problems.

Ideology vrs Patronage is the biggest difference between political party systems in the "West" vrs the "East". Which is why applying concepts of "western style" democracy are doomed to fail. Each country needs to find its own way.

Actually the whole experience of the last few months will, I believe, turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country, when we look back on it many years from now.

[BlackJack]

During Khun Thaksin's time, real improvements were made, not only hope.

Yes real improvement to the Thaksin family/friends/workers BANK ACCOUNTS

[madi]

A coup is when a government is over thrown. It has never hap[pend in America. Only a child would say that one person is a party.

I'm going to take this quote away form the Lincoln discussion and apply it to Thailand.

In Western-type democracies, there are political parties that have relatively cohesive ideological platforms. The platforms are fluild, but generally one knows the idealogical and policy leanings of Democrats v Republicans or Conservative/Christian Democrat v Social Democrat and so on.

In Thailand, political parties are simply groups of people that band together because they view it as a way to gain power/help business interests, etc.

The problem with the TRT/PPP/PTP is that it increasingly seemed to be about one Person, and not about any actual long-term policies.

The Democrats? Not sure what they're long-term policies are either. Most of their last platform didn't really differ much from the PPP, particularly regarding social/rural development (which apparently was the reason rural northern/Issan supported the PPP).

As long as Thai politics are only about People, we are are continuously going to experience these same problems.

Ideology vrs Patronage is the biggest difference between political party systems in the "West" vrs the "East". Which is why applying concepts of "western style" democracy are doomed to fail. Each country needs to find its own way.

Actually the whole experience of the last few months will, I believe, turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country, when we look back on it many years from now.

Wow

Talk about trying to put the best face on a bad situation.

Funny how Japan can do democracy.

India can do it too.

I think they are in what you would call 'THE EAST".

So that seems to make that argument pretty lame. (Weak)

The military and the Police refusing to protect an elected government is a High point? How about a court put in by the last military junta using its power under a constitution put in by the same military junta, to over throw a democratically elected government. You see that as a move toward democracy? I think it was just a new way to do a coup that would make the world not notice as much.

But ok--we can all disagree. I am sure you wanted the old style government here and sure do not want people in Issan taking control. Why is it you in bangkok use secret codes for what you really think and want. You do not want people in Issan to have a strong say in who runs Thailand and you do not care how many votes they cast or how many elections their people win.

I would respect your view a lot more if you were honest and told us why it is that your view is best for Thailand. I am sure you might have an argument there. But this nonsense about Thai style democracy and East and West is laughable.

Korea has a democracy. Japan, India, and so on and so on also have democracy and they are Asian nations.

Why is the Elite in Bangkok care so little for the poor of Issan? You are making them very very angry. It would be best to stop ruling them as if they are all peasants to work for you like slaves.

Time to leave the 19th century behind and move forward Thailand.

[animatic]

Thailand have following wikipedia a flawing democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Personally I can’t understand how they can use the word democracy on any country where there are only the individuals/parties to elect who comes from the most wealthy part of the society. In a non democracy they will always will be the best educated and successful business people!

In a democracy all people have the right to the same education and nobody need or can bribe them into better education.

This last line is half right,

they have a RIGHT to an education,

but most PAY for the better one.

All students here have a right to an education too don't they?

If you want a basic education pay for uniforms, but you still go.

But you want into the BIG schools PAY.

Same as Europe or USA,

barring scholarships for the brilliant and lucky.

[jasreeve17]

A coup is when a government is over thrown. It has never hap[pend in America. Only a child would say that one person is a party.

I'm going to take this quote away form the Lincoln discussion and apply it to Thailand.

In Western-type democracies, there are political parties that have relatively cohesive ideological platforms. The platforms are fluild, but generally one knows the idealogical and policy leanings of Democrats v Republicans or Conservative/Christian Democrat v Social Democrat and so on.

In Thailand, political parties are simply groups of people that band together because they view it as a way to gain power/help business interests, etc.

The problem with the TRT/PPP/PTP is that it increasingly seemed to be about one Person, and not about any actual long-term policies.

The Democrats? Not sure what they're long-term policies are either. Most of their last platform didn't really differ much from the PPP, particularly regarding social/rural development (which apparently was the reason rural northern/Isaan supported the PPP).

As long as Thai politics are only about People, we are are continuously going to experience these same problems.

Ideology vrs Patronage is the biggest difference between political party systems in the "West" vrs the "East". Which is why applying concepts of "western style" democracy are doomed to fail. Each country needs to find its own way.

Actually the whole experience of the last few months will, I believe, turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country, when we look back on it many years from now.

What does Ideology vs Patronage mean? People of all types and colours have ideals, dreams, beliefs... People of all types and colours try to get power, control, compliance from/over others... Perhaps it was just a poor choice of wording, but I see the whole concept of doing it 'Thaistyle' as a repulsive bag of worms.

Yes, each country has a different history. But, there are stark similarities all over the world; a small ruling group took advantage of a larger seemingly powerless group. In time, the balance was addressed, as the larger group realised that they actually had the power and became, generally, a social democracy where people were considered equal, with equal rights to, jobs, healthcae, education, opportunities, marriage rights... you get the picture.

Thailand is exactly the same, and the people deserve, and will ultimately get, equal rights - democracy, as it's generally termed by many.

PAD are against this idea - 'the poor are too stupid to vote', 'Thailand is not ready for democracy', 'the government should be prodominantly appointed'.

It's basically Ideology vs Ideology.

PAD Ideology - I know better than you, so I WILL decide.

populous Ideology - hang on a minute, we have dreams too, we just want equal chances, we work hard, we have families, why are we not allowed the things you have?

[jasreeve17]

Always semi entertaining and funny to read posts from the usual suspects...the pseudo intellectual Bangkok farangs on this forum always trying to make sense of 3rd World politics and politicians as if their was actually some legitimate justification to the urban elites undemocratic neverending and usually futile attempts to seize power. Oh my bretheren, just continue to chill and enjoy your underachieving 50000 baht teachers salary existance, sufficiently cheap street food, Happy hours at Cheap Charlies, and disease infested cheap whores while you can, and hope and pray that Pol Pots distant cousins living in Issan, don't decide to reincarnate Cambodias history in Thailand before you move back to the stark reality of your own countries.....Oh sorry my bad, you coudn't make it there, thats why your here......whew.I feel better now...guess I better hurry over to Tulips for a ultra satisfying 3-H massage....There I go again...living vicariously through all of you......Cheers!!!

HAA HAAA

Good post.

A litte to close to the belt for many I bet.

I agree with you.

It's a shame that some decent points were hidden behind immature and rude commets, thus slaughtering your own message. Pointless.

[jasreeve17]

Indian democracy????

Thai politicians would look like angels over there.

Patronage means you have to go alone with your patron's choices of ideology. When the boss changes party affiliation, so do you.

Now that the Americans paid homage to democracy by electing Obama, their politicians can resume life as they know it until when? Next eight years under the likes of GWB? One Obama doesn't make up for the lunacy of the past decade or so.

I know what some people presume it to mean, thank you. My argument was that it allows a small group of empowered individuals to control the rights of a larger group., as you nicely explained. It happens all over the world, is not uniquely Thai or Asian, and is equally corrupt and bad everywhere. Luckily for the majority, this displacement of rights is resolved with the advent of democratic process, something that the PAD are trying to stop...

[madi]

Indian democracy????

Thai politicians would look like angels over there.

Patronage means you have to go alone with your patron's choices of ideology. When the boss changes party affiliation, so do you.

Now that the Americans paid homage to democracy by electing Obama, their politicians can resume life as they know it until when? Next eight years under the likes of GWB? One Obama doesn't make up for the lunacy of the past decade or so.

It was 8 years although it did seem like 10. HAA HAA

GW was a jerkoff but compared to Hitler, he was an angel. How many people died from Hitlers wars?

Was it 25 million or so?

GW has not even gotten close to the idiot from Germany but as soon as Hitler was gone, Americans were ready to make peace with them.

I think the same will be true as bush leaves.

Democracy is not perfect. But look at the alternatives.

Can you imagine if America was not a democracy and GW could stay in power like Hitler did?

I think Thai politicians looking like angels is a sign you are indeed unaware of how smart Thai politicians are and how nasty they can be in holding power. Angles? HAAA HAAA

The Thais in power do everything that idiot in Illinois did as governor and then some. Difference is they do not get caught or even if they do get caught, they use power and money to get out of it.

The corruption in Thailand is so common place that we are all shocked when it does not appear.

tell me what politician is in jail here for taking bribes?

illinois has one ex governor in prison now and another will soon join.

Obviously the Thais are superior in the corruption game.

[erobando]

Ideology vrs Patronage is the biggest difference between political party systems in the "West" vrs the "East". Which is why applying concepts of "western style" democracy are doomed to fail. Each country needs to find its own way.

Actually the whole experience of the last few months will, I believe, turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country, when we look back on it many years from now.

Wow

Talk about trying to put the best face on a bad situation.

Funny how Japan can do democracy.

India can do it too.

I think they are in what you would call 'THE EAST".

So that seems to make that argument pretty lame. (Weak)

The military and the Police refusing to protect an elected government is a High point? How about a court put in by the last military junta using its power under a constitution put in by the same military junta, to over throw a democratically elected government. You see that as a move toward democracy? I think it was just a new way to do a coup that would make the world not notice as much.

But ok--we can all disagree. I am sure you wanted the old style government here and sure do not want people in Issan taking control. Why is it you in bangkok use secret codes for what you really think and want. You do not want people in Issan to have a strong say in who runs Thailand and you do not care how many votes they cast or how many elections their people win.

I would respect your view a lot more if you were honest and told us why it is that your view is best for Thailand. I am sure you might have an argument there. But this nonsense about Thai style democracy and East and West is laughable.

Korea has a democracy. Japan, India, and so on and so on also have democracy and they are Asian nations.

Why is the Elite in Bangkok care so little for the poor of Issan? You are making them very very angry. It would be best to stop ruling them as if they are all peasants to work for you like slaves.

Time to leave the 19th century behind and move forward Thailand.

IMO you're overreacting a bit to jbowman's post.

The post did not state "High Point" or claim that any particular group was justified in its actions.

Perhaps by stating it could "turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country" means that the "experience" (actions by all, right or wrong) might eventually pave the way for a more effective means of government in Thailand since (e.g., the eventual formation of true political parties instead individual power battles).

Don't understand the last paragraph. jbowman's post didn't mention Isaan or any region at all.

[erobando]

Ideology vrs Patronage is the biggest difference between political party systems in the "West" vrs the "East". Which is why applying concepts of "western style" democracy are doomed to fail. Each country needs to find its own way.

Actually the whole experience of the last few months will, I believe, turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country, when we look back on it many years from now.

What does Ideology vs Patronage mean? People of all types and colours have ideals, dreams, beliefs... People of all types and colours try to get power, control, compliance from/over others... Perhaps it was just a poor choice of wording, but I see the whole concept of doing it 'Thaistyle' as a repulsive bag of worms.

PAD are against this idea - 'the poor are too stupid to vote', 'Thailand is not ready for democracy', 'the government should be prodominantly appointed'.

It's basically Ideology vs Ideology.

PAD Ideology - I know better than you, so I WILL decide.

populous Ideology - hang on a minute, we have dreams too, we just want equal chances, we work hard, we have families, why are we not allowed the things you have?

Another overreaction to jbowman's post.

The post wasn't necessarily justifying Patronage politics.

"Applying" concepts of western-style democracy refers to erroneous attempts to try to understand current Thai politics in terms of western concepts of left v right or rural poor v urban elite.

No Thai Party has an ideology so people essentially vote for individuals who join a party for personal interests.

If there was a left v right struggle, there would be actual policy differences between the parties. But there aren't really any.

And if it was really rural poor v urban elite, TRT/PPP/PTP would have a lot more support in the South.

Instead, it is all individual-based.

I took jbowman's post as statement about the current Thai political system; I didn't read any mention of PAD or its supposed goals.

[endure]

The topic is

"Ex-thai Pm Attempts To Block Govt Led By Opponents, Thaksin's supporters fill stadium"

Any more posts which concern themselves with democracy or politics in countries other than Thailand will be deleted and the poster will be suspended for 7 days. Understand?

[Journalist]

So, Thailand will have a right wing military backed "Democratic" party led government after all. Big surprise. They are doing a great job in Myanmar, let them have a shot at Thailand. What's the fuss?

Exactly, they are already best friend and party together

What annoys me most is their mouths still recycle "for democracy". People's Alliance for Democracy? For Democrat Party is the right term.

Time the Army and some others let Thais grow up. Stop interfering.

So you are saying that the Thailand Army

is not filled with Thai people???

The army has no role in this. It should stop interfering or making veiled threats they might. There's no use them having coups, they're so hopeless at economic management and only fit for parade duty.

About time a credible opposition party was set up and properly funded. Many other opposition forces in Asia seem to manage to get off their arse, from Korea, to Taiwan to Indonesia. If they do the prep work, in all these countries they eventually prevail. Perhaps Thais just can't be assed to do the tedious legwork.

[jasreeve17]

Ideology vrs Patronage is the biggest difference between political party systems in the "West" vrs the "East". Which is why applying concepts of "western style" democracy are doomed to fail. Each country needs to find its own way.

Actually the whole experience of the last few months will, I believe, turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country, when we look back on it many years from now.

What does Ideology vs Patronage mean? People of all types and colours have ideals, dreams, beliefs... People of all types and colours try to get power, control, compliance from/over others... Perhaps it was just a poor choice of wording, but I see the whole concept of doing it 'Thaistyle' as a repulsive bag of worms.

PAD are against this idea - 'the poor are too stupid to vote', 'Thailand is not ready for democracy', 'the government should be prodominantly appointed'.

It's basically Ideology vs Ideology.

PAD Ideology - I know better than you, so I WILL decide.

populous Ideology - hang on a minute, we have dreams too, we just want equal chances, we work hard, we have families, why are we not allowed the things you have?

Another overreaction to jbowman's post.

The post wasn't necessarily justifying Patronage politics.

"Applying" concepts of western-style democracy refers to erroneous attempts to try to understand current Thai politics in terms of western concepts of left v right or rural poor v urban elite.

No Thai Party has an ideology so people essentially vote for individuals who join a party for personal interests.

If there was a left v right struggle, there would be actual policy differences between the parties. But there aren't really any.

And if it was really rural poor v urban elite, TRT/PPP/PTP would have a lot more support in the South.

Instead, it is all individual-based.

I took jbowman's post as statement about the current Thai political system; I didn't read any mention of PAD or its supposed goals.

I didn't say it was, you seem to have misinterpreted.

I explained how accepting that Thailand (or Asia) has a patronage system, and that's different from western democracies, thus Thailand will have a 'Thiastyle' democracy - is very dangerous. All under-deveoped democratic systems (west or east, north or south)are patronage systems. Thailand / Asia is not unique, this is a ploy to stop democracy growing, that's all.

I see it as a class struggle rather than a party politics struggle, hence why I mentioned PAD, who, as I'm sure you are aware are not actually a political party, but rather a very complex social pressure group.

To make it easier for you to understand: party politcs and social development are tightly wound together in Thailand (everywhere?). To understand one you must have an understanding of the other. Your attempt to singularly analyse it in a politcal form is deeply error ladden, in my opinion.

Using terms like 'Thaistyle democracy', 'Thaistyle law' and 'Thaistyle coup" is foolish and wrong. It's a technique used by powermongers here (on all sides) to empower themselves at the expense of the populous. Thaksin does it, the army does it and PAD does it a lot. The concepts of democracy, law and coups are the same in Thailand, England or Outer Mongolia.

[aguy30]

Paying elected politician 50 million baht to switch sides and vote for Pueh Thai nominees.

Source?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/14...cs_30090931.php

Happy now? Close enough for your needs? I really hate boring people that are self appointed monitors, that post "source".

[erobando]

I didn't say it was, you seem to have misinterpreted.

I explained how accepting that Thailand (or Asia) has a patronage system, and that's different from western democracies, thus Thailand will have a 'Thiastyle' democracy - is very dangerous. All under-deveoped democratic systems (west or east, north or south)are patronage systems. Thailand / Asia is not unique, this is a ploy to stop democracy growing, that's all.

I see it as a class struggle rather than a party politics struggle, hence why I mentioned PAD, who, as I'm sure you are aware are not actually a political party, but rather a very complex social pressure group.

To make it easier for you to understand: party politcs and social development are tightly wound together in Thailand (everywhere?). To understand one you must have an understanding of the other. Your attempt to singularly analyse it in a politcal form is deeply error ladden, in my opinion.

Using terms like 'Thaistyle democracy', 'Thaistyle law' and 'Thaistyle coup" is foolish and wrong. It's a technique used by powermongers here (on all sides) to empower themselves at the expense of the populous. Thaksin does it, the army does it and PAD does it a lot. The concepts of democracy, law and coups are the same in Thailand, England or Outer Mongolia.

I don't think people who describe the currently Thai political system as a patronage system mean that it will always be that way.

Most use the term in a negative sense and hope that this will change eventually... even if it takes a while or won't happen until the old garde polititians from all parties leave the scene.

I don't see how this is a class issue.

It's more regional if anything. North and Isaan support Thaksin, Bangkok and the South don't.

At first Thaksin the used terminology of ideological party politics but it quickly became apparent that the only thing he did different was try to replace the existing power network with his own.

So the fight became about which network is in charge. But neither network represents the interests of a particular class v another.

I agree that a bunch of meaningless terms are being tossed around by all groups: "democracy" and "the People" seem to be the most frequently used.

[erobando]

Thaksin (to avoid your moronic misuse of his name) was elected, re-elected and would be re-elected to morrow if the Junta hadn't stepped in.

Yes, he'd likely be able to regain his seat in Chiang Mai.

I think everybody would agree on that.

[jasreeve17]

I didn't say it was, you seem to have misinterpreted.

I explained how accepting that Thailand (or Asia) has a patronage system, and that's different from western democracies, thus Thailand will have a 'Thiastyle' democracy - is very dangerous. All under-deveoped democratic systems (west or east, north or south)are patronage systems. Thailand / Asia is not unique, this is a ploy to stop democracy growing, that's all.

I see it as a class struggle rather than a party politics struggle, hence why I mentioned PAD, who, as I'm sure you are aware are not actually a political party, but rather a very complex social pressure group.

To make it easier for you to understand: party politcs and social development are tightly wound together in Thailand (everywhere?). To understand one you must have an understanding of the other. Your attempt to singularly analyse it in a politcal form is deeply error ladden, in my opinion.

Using terms like 'Thaistyle democracy', 'Thaistyle law' and 'Thaistyle coup" is foolish and wrong. It's a technique used by powermongers here (on all sides) to empower themselves at the expense of the populous. Thaksin does it, the army does it and PAD does it a lot. The concepts of democracy, law and coups are the same in Thailand, England or Outer Mongolia.

I don't think people who describe the currently Thai political system as a patronage system mean that it will always be that way.

Most use the term in a negative sense and hope that this will change eventually... even if it takes a while or won't happen until the old garde polititians from all parties leave the scene.

I don't see how this is a class issue.

It's more regional if anything. North and Isaan support Thaksin, Bangkok and the South don't.

At first Thaksin the used terminology of ideological party politics but it quickly became apparent that the only thing he did different was try to replace the existing power network with his own.

So the fight became about which network is in charge. But neither network represents the interests of a particular class v another.

I agree that a bunch of meaningless terms are being tossed around by all groups: "democracy" and "the People" seem to be the most frequently used.

I agree with this post, almost entirely.

The difference being that Bkk is the money centre, and thus I see it as class based; The rich Bkk folk tring to keep all the cash. The south is harder to explain, I doubt if I'm able, thus I won't attempt to other than to say that Thaksin's awful heavy-handed attempt to manage the situation drew much hatred from them, which I can fully understand.

[jasreeve17]

Thaksin (to avoid your moronic misuse of his name) was elected, re-elected and would be re-elected to morrow if the Junta hadn't stepped in.

Yes, he'd likely be able to regain his seat in Chiang Mai.

I think everybody would agree on that.

It's a solid point though, & begs the question; why would they vote him back in? Are they stupid or do they know something.

I'd suggest that they are not stupid, and even if they were they are the masses and should be respected.

[siam4ever]

That's true, it must be! Look how much happier and peaceful the South has been since Thaksin was ousted by the right wing military coup. Have you heard of any bombings or terrorist activity since then?

[erobando]

Thaksin (to avoid your moronic misuse of his name) was elected, re-elected and would be re-elected to morrow if the Junta hadn't stepped in.

Yes, he'd likely be able to regain his seat in Chiang Mai.

I think everybody would agree on that.

It's a solid point though, & begs the question; why would they vote him back in? Are they stupid or do they know something.

I'd suggest that they are not stupid, and even if they were they are the masses and should be respected.

I don't think TRT/PPP/PTP voters are stupid, nor do I think Democratic voters in the South are stupid.

My reply to grandpops was more to the point that of this being regional.

The Democratic party has a long history in the South; I think Thaksin knew it would be hard to gain support there (compared to say, Isaan).

I think it would have been great if the TRT/PPP/PTP really became a left of center party that devoloped ongoing policies that helped developing areas throughout Thailand.

But that plan seemed to have run its course... and it's back at square one with individual instead of ideological politics.

[erobando]

That's true, it must be! Look how much happier and peaceful the South has been since Thaksin was ousted by the right wing military coup. Have you heard of any bombings or terrorist activity since then?

I'm not sure I understand this post.

I brought up the South because it's mostly rural and still votes Democratic.

And South doesn't only mean the 3 or 4 provinces with the terrorist activity.

[Plus]

TRT was a vehicle for the new group of rich people to gain control of the state power, if a few bones needed to be thrown in the way of the poor, so be it, it wasn't a personal investement, and it recouped itself ten times over.

It's not politically correct to call Isanese less sophisticated voters, but when these poorest folks in the country marched to Bangkok to protect the richest man from paying his taxes - you could almost cry at their naivety.

[erobando]

I agree with this post, almost entirely.

The difference being that Bkk is the money centre, and thus I see it as class based; The rich Bkk folk tring to keep all the cash. The south is harder to explain, I doubt if I'm able, thus I won't attempt to other than to say that Thaksin's awful heavy-handed attempt to manage the situation drew much hatred from them, which I can fully understand.

Definitely BKK is the money center and generally support the existing power network.

The reason I don't think of it as a class struggle is because the main objections to TRT/PPP/PTP aren't about the initial populist policies or how money is distributed.

They primarily have been about Thaksin himself; what was perceived as using the PM-ship to advance his own business interests and trying to consolidate his power by creating his own power network.

[Vato]

<br />

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

<br /><br /><br />I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did. <br />Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!<br />When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.<br />Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.<br />I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

The elected PM should have an even balancing of votes throughout the entire country - not a majority from the North East and only from the Northeast...it is at this point you have to ask yourself why? is the majority vote coming from the Northeast.

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In the Northeast:

1. Thaksin engaged in propaganda

2. Gave out community loans (nationwide) - essentially buying votes and the will of the people from the beginning of his office, with another side effect of putting more people into debt do to under capitalization. The village heads were responsible for loan distribution - he bought the village heads, because he knew some would be corrupt and try to embezzle the money, as long as the money kept coming in, the more the village heads would push for Thaksins side - you provide loans based on the ability to pay them back, you dont provide loans solely on the basis of breaking even.

3. 30 baht medical scheme country wide - basicly gave out paracetemal, and doesnt cover major illnesses

4. In the Northeast there is the highest majority BUT also the poorest people - to buy votes Thaksin could spend less and make himself look good at the same time.

5. In the Northeast some areas cannot receive TV signals or radio broadcast - Thaksin set up a communications link throughout these regions, to provide propaganda, one voice.....his

6. Provided seeds for crops at discounted prices (nationwide via CP which Thaksin is a major shareholder)- but have been genetically modified to produce only one crop...yes you would now have to buy seeds for every crop... instead of using seeds from your previous crop....think community loan.

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SO imagine you are a farmer in the Northeast....

You now have:

1. TV and radio - but only Thaksin is showing

2. You can now get micro loans - to do what? ....you live in the country, what are you going to use that money for? what kind of business can you engage in , living in the driest region of the country....oh i know a good time....how about a new radio? yeah now i can hear whats going on in Thailand via Thaksins words.

3. Youre sick and need medical attention , you have been diagnosed with 4th level diabetes - what the 30 baht scheme doesnt cover it?...nope, and the doctor residing at the hospital is a new intern which has recently graduated from med school...not very experienced....but hey they'll give you a paracetamol tablet to ease the pain...but then you soon find you can go to the drug store and buy it for 10 baht instead.

4.You mean you will give me 500-1500 baht to take a free trip to bangkok and give me food too? - I always wanted to go to bangkok and your giving spending money too? but why does this bowl of noodles cost 30 baht when its only 10 baht back in the Northeast?

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I dont understand why everyone hates Thaksin, he:

1. gave me TV and radio

2. gave me a loan to have a good time and buy that new radio i always wanted

3. gave me a 30 baht medical scheme incase i get seriously ill (not)

4. gave me money to take a trip

5. gave me seeds at a discount and i can pay for them by the community loan

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There are things in this world which arent spoken BUT which have alternative meaning....i just feel sorry for the people who arent bright enough to realize...or who dont have the ability to dig deeper to see the truth.

My solution : let the new government take office and dont forget about the poor people because they are the easiest ones to buy, but provide them with legitimate services...this will end the social apartheid

Thaksins move to win the hearts of the Northeastern people was a checkmate from the beginning....and he knew it....keep in mind that not all in the Northeast are farmers...the majority of the Northeast is an arid dry climate, where nothing will grow, not all areas, but most.

The blatant disregard to see the even more serious problem of social apartheid and the destruction of the country on a social level....shows ones true character and their ultimate agenda...themselves.

[Vato]

<br />

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

<br /><br /><br />I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did. <br />Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!<br />When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.<br />Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.<br />I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.<br />

<br /><br />Lucky for you there is freedom of speech on this site, other wise a moronic post like the one you posted here would not be a on this site at all, it would have been delegated to the trash folder! Democratically elected (what?), Toxin bought his way into office, breaking many election laws along the way. Americans were not above the fray or well behaved citizen's they were just weak and lacked the will or ambition to do any thing about their dictator in office, they failed to do what a very few yellow shirts managed accomplish to do, what ever it takes and oust a mobster like Bush or Toxin!<br /><br />You don't understand the meaning of democracy, (for the people by the people) not (by the people for a dictator) to run his own greedy agendas unfettered across the board. I agree only that things could have been done a bit differently by the PAD. But it's easy to Monday night quarter back when you're not the one standing in front of a gun for what you believe in! Case in point: they got the Toxin puppets ousted again! Cheers to them for demanding a Democracy here in Thailand. <br /><br />America is suffering badly for its lack of action. It will be a decade before America can recover from 8 years of Bush's doctrines. Bush and Toxin or both corrupt mobsters doing what ever suites them, democracy went by the way side. Perhaps now, some common folk can in time enjoy some chocolate after the dust settles around here.<br /><br />Glory is the end result war is never appealing.<br /><br />

<br /><br />You are totally wrong on most points but noticibly wrong/ignorant of the following.<br /><br />Thaksin (to avoid your moronic misuse of his name) was elected, re-elected and would be re-elected to morrow if the Junta hadn't stepped in.<br /><br />PLEASE READ CAREFULLY. - He was convicted by a court set up to convict him according to rules imposed by the Junta that put the Courts in place to do it in. How could he possibly <u><b>NOT</b></u> have been convicted of crimes in this scenario? It's impossible. The analagy was that if Ronaldo received a yellow card, Man Utd. could be disbanded, their players banned for 5 years and Alex Ferguson put in clink for 2 years.<br /><br />Re-read the posts and look for the Asian Human Rights Commission articles on here. If you are not scared to learn something other than from ASTV.<br /><br />It's the unelected supposed elite that have just staged their second coup and purging of partys that are a threat to them.<br /><br />I thought Fox overplayed the existence of Kool Aid drinkers, but I am not so sure now.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

the junta redid the constitution because Thaksin, redid parts of it prior to the junta to try and provide a path for a 'one' man power scenario.

the junta worked at eliminating this stipulation in the rewritten Thaksin constitution.

dont forget that the majority of the people welcomed the coup with open arms and were giving flowers to the military....obviously something was wrong with thaksins regime...if people were giving flowers to men with M-16's sitting on a tank.

[warmwater7]

Never a dull moment around here.

WELL SAID - Thailand is MANY MANY things..... but it is NEVER EVER boring!!!!!!

Oh I can't agree - they haven't been doing coups very well recently. The last one was very boring - hardly noticed anything and they've had loads of practice. And that Somchai bored me to tears. I think he was handicapped. And what about the media, pop music and weather........ they're all very boring. Museums? oh well, mmmmmmmmmmmm

it will be interesting to see who is co ( country )-signing for thaksin. where they will stand in the future. follow the money