Tv Members And Political Correctness

[GuestHouse]

I believe the subject is Thaivisa Members and Political Correctness (or it was when I started it), straying into discussions about people holding/expressing negative views of Thailand and whether or not they should leave Thailand might be an discussion some feel more comfortable with, but it is not the subject under discussion.

Nor, I would add, is what Thais have or have not said. As Garro points out, it is what the Poster thinks, not what the poster claims other people think.

[Super Hans]

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

Maybe some dont actually have the courage of their convictions, is the lure of the dollar enough to have them look the other way?

Talk is cheap as they say.

Here's a curious thing, on a number of occasions (I mean numerous) respondents to various posts I have made bring up the fact that I am working in Saudi Arabia, as if doing so denies me the right to an opinion or, as here, as if working in Saudi Arabia is a statement of acceptance and support for any number of problems in this society. These comments often come from people who have in the past worked and lived in Saudi Arabia (Do they/Did they support all these things?). And when they come from people who have never lived or worked in Saudi Arabia I have to wonder do they understand enough about this place to give any meaningful comment? Is their argument that I should not hold liberal views because they have a prejudicial view of where I work?

I have this observation on working here.

Firstly, and this is also relevant to Thailand, living and working here has given me an understanding of a place which previously had, in my mind, been shrouded in all manner of misconceptions and prejudicial views. Much of what I had heard of Saudi Arabia has been correct, very much of what I had heard has been very very wrong. For me the Saudi Bogie Man is back in its box and my own prejudices have been removed by personal experience of having the privilege to meet and work with some extremely fine people.

An open mind and a starting point of respect allows us to see the good that is in all humanity, this is as true here in Saudi as it is in Thailand.

I've witnessed the grace and dignity of a Saudi colleague and his family dealing with the their 8 year old daughter's cancer, a man and his wife throwing everything they have at doing the best for their daughter. The importance to Saudis of family, the importance of all the same concerns as the rest has cleared my mind of the negative stereotypes so often bandied about when referring to Saudis and Muslims in general.

Nobody has tried to convert me, I'm treated well and with respect. My Saudi opposite number is a man I have frequent arguments with, we are at opposite ends of a contract his needs are my costs so conflict is expected. We argue frequently and in many respects I find him a pain the primary, but in one respect he has my admiration .. His insistence that we all of us treat other with mutual respect, from the project leader to the day labourer.

Open your mind, the rewards are huge.... and I'm not just referring to my compensation package

Many a true word is spoken in jest...

The problem here is, you are coming at this from the point of view of someone who is wealthy, educated and liberal. Your Saudi oppo is undoubtedly from a similar respective position. It is very easy to be cordial over dividing resources when you are engaged in a mutually beneficial enterprise. Conflict arises when you are competing for scraps, not when you're happily dividing the lolly. Poverty causes the world's problems, nothing else. Address this and there's no need for PC.

Oh, and where were the majority of the 9/11 bombers from again? Perhaps I'll open my mind to that first, eh?

[Super Hans]

rgs2001

To be a bit frank with you, I am not really that interested in what your Thai friends are saying. I tend to go a bit glaze-eyed when posters start talking about what their Thai partners or friends say about westerners on this forum. It always comes across to me as a bit childish. I am more interested in what the poster thinks. I am sure that your Thai friends are big enough to represent themselves, and I am perfectly capable of getting opinions from the Thais I know without the need of you to pass on the information as a representative of the people of Thailand. I'm afraid 'my Thai friends said..' doesn't really carry much weight with me, especially when it is used to bolster a poster's argument. This form of evidence is too open to abuse.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not criticise Thailand. If you are not going to read my posts please refrain from quoting them.

Absolutely astounding. A sensational, revealing post.

____________

For the record, I have heard dozens of Thais tell farangs to go home if they don't like Thailand. And why shouldn't they? They live without the fear of nazi thugs listening to their every word and hence say what is on their minds. It is a beautiful, free, liberating concept.

Course what we in the UK do is get our heads stuck as far in the sand as we possibly can. The result? Radicalisation. Hey, but that's our fault too, right!

[garro]

rgs2001

To be a bit frank with you, I am not really that interested in what your Thai friends are saying. I tend to go a bit glaze-eyed when posters start talking about what their Thai partners or friends say about westerners on this forum. It always comes across to me as a bit childish. I am more interested in what the poster thinks. I am sure that your Thai friends are big enough to represent themselves, and I am perfectly capable of getting opinions from the Thais I know without the need of you to pass on the information as a representative of the people of Thailand. I'm afraid 'my Thai friends said..' doesn't really carry much weight with me, especially when it is used to bolster a poster's argument. This form of evidence is too open to abuse.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not criticise Thailand. If you are not going to read my posts please refrain from quoting them.

Absolutely astounding. A sensational, revealing post.

____________

For the record, I have heard dozens of Thais tell farangs to go home if they don't like Thailand. And why shouldn't they? They live without the fear of nazi thugs listening to their every word and hence say what is on their minds. It is a beautiful, free, liberating concept.

Course what we in the UK do is get our heads stuck as far in the sand as we possibly can. The result? Radicalisation. Hey, but that's our fault too, right!

Again, no real interest in second-hand information of what your Thai friends may or may not have said. Just like I had no real interest when you elected to tell me what 'us' think. I am only interested in what the poster thinks, but the be fair my interest is seriously waning given the level of debate which your and some other posts contain.

Edited December 19, 2008 by garro

[Super Hans]

This is the anti-PC argument which I dislike the most; if you don't like it or if you don't want to act like us then you should leave.

Communities don't have the right to preserve their cultures then? You have heard of the melting pot? Honestly, you PCers don't half tie yourself up in knots trying to defend the indefensible.

I applaud any government that attempts to increase harmony among its citizens.

What a totalitarian you are. You'd have gone down a storm in nazi Germany.

Personally, I want my government to provide basic state functions, and then keep the hel_l away from me. That is because i understand the dangers of the state. You clearly do not.

[DC1066]

I think this one is getting to be a bit of a yawn.

It was ok when there was some element of debate, but its getting to be a 3 way slug fest of personal name calling and ever more incomprehensible posts.

Move it on, or call it a day and put up your next troll for us to wade into

[Super Hans]

rgs2001

To be a bit frank with you, I am not really that interested in what your Thai friends are saying. I tend to go a bit glaze-eyed when posters start talking about what their Thai partners or friends say about westerners on this forum. It always comes across to me as a bit childish. I am more interested in what the poster thinks. I am sure that your Thai friends are big enough to represent themselves, and I am perfectly capable of getting opinions from the Thais I know without the need of you to pass on the information as a representative of the people of Thailand. I'm afraid 'my Thai friends said..' doesn't really carry much weight with me, especially when it is used to bolster a poster's argument. This form of evidence is too open to abuse.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not criticise Thailand. If you are not going to read my posts please refrain from quoting them.

Absolutely astounding. A sensational, revealing post.

____________

For the record, I have heard dozens of Thais tell farangs to go home if they don't like Thailand. And why shouldn't they? They live without the fear of nazi thugs listening to their every word and hence say what is on their minds. It is a beautiful, free, liberating concept.

Course what we in the UK do is get our heads stuck as far in the sand as we possibly can. The result? Radicalisation. Hey, but that's our fault too, right!

Again, no real interest in second-hand information of what your Thai friends may or may not have said. Just like I had no real interest when you elected to tell me what 'us' think. I am only interested in what the poster thinks, but the be fair my interest is seriously waning given the level of debate which your and some other posts contain.

Good, pertinent information you're unable to respond to, you mean? Thought so.

[Super Hans]

I think this one is getting to be a bit of a yawn.

It was ok when there was some element of debate, but its getting to be a 3 way slug fest of personal name calling and ever more incomprehensible posts.

Move it on, or call it a day and put up your next troll for us to wade into

If you're not interested, don't read it. Simple.

[garro]

I think this one is getting to be a bit of a yawn.

It was ok when there was some element of debate, but its getting to be a 3 way slug fest of personal name calling and ever more incomprehensible posts.

Move it on, or call it a day and put up your next troll for us to wade into

Normally I would ask to see your moderator's badge, but this thread is going around in circles.

So you have my backing in your self-elected role as moderator - who knows the real moderators might be impressed and offer you the real job.

[Super Hans]

I think this one is getting to be a bit of a yawn.

It was ok when there was some element of debate, but its getting to be a 3 way slug fest of personal name calling and ever more incomprehensible posts.

Move it on, or call it a day and put up your next troll for us to wade into

Normally I would ask to see your moderator's badge, but this thread is going around in circles.

So you have my backing in your self-elected role as moderator - who knows the real moderators might be impressed and offer you the real job.

Losing the argument and bailing out, eh? Very wise.

[DC1066]

I think this one is getting to be a bit of a yawn.

It was ok when there was some element of debate, but its getting to be a 3 way slug fest of personal name calling and ever more incomprehensible posts.

Move it on, or call it a day and put up your next troll for us to wade into

If you're not interested, don't read it. Simple.

I might say, how would I know if its interesting until I've read it, but in the case of your posts, you might have a point

[DC1066]

I think this one is getting to be a bit of a yawn.

It was ok when there was some element of debate, but its getting to be a 3 way slug fest of personal name calling and ever more incomprehensible posts.

Move it on, or call it a day and put up your next troll for us to wade into

Normally I would ask to see your moderator's badge, but this thread is going around in circles.

So you have my backing in your self-elected role as moderator - who knows the real moderators might be impressed and offer you the real job.

My apologies for acting like a moderator, I wouldn't want to be accused of limiting free speech, people might then think I'm part of the PC brigade - oops, here we go again

[GuestHouse]

Once again, the topic under discussion is ThaiVisa Members and Political Correctness. Clearly Super Hans, you have a problem with Political Correctness, but you have yet to make a case why you believe it to be such a bad thing. Second hand reports of what other people think are not a case. Rants against where others live/work or what their level of wealth/education is are not a case against Political Correctness either.

How's about telling us exactly how Political Correctness directly impacts your life and they way you live your life.

We might then get a chance to see your point of view in terms of you rather than by proxy in terms of what you tell us others think.

[spud1]

I replied to the OP's subject when this (troll) thread was in it's infancy with regards to a school banning children singing christmas carols.Reading posts of the pro PC, I conclude they must be all extremists.Has to insinuate persons who object to some PC actions are racist or sexist is surely a negative representation to the cause of PC.In respect of my original reply to the OP,could one of you pro PC totarians enlighten me to the positive effects of this type of PC behaviour.

That's odd, you now regard this as a Troll thread, a term you objected to in your second post, why then your change in mind over a thread you have contributed so much to?

You ask here about Racism, yet you where the first person to mention immigration and racism in this thread, you opened with an accusation that the PC Brigade only cause to make racial tension worse (for which you give no evidence), and continued to object to your traditions being changed so as not to offend immigrants. Anti PC and Race, you brought it to the discussion.

Thaibeachlove (openly anti PC) brought sexism to the discussion with his accusation that Political Correctness was the last refuge of man hating women.

It is not that those who support Political Correctness need to accuse those who do not of anything – The anti PC brigade rush to confess their own 'issues'.

Has banning religion from schools done anything positive – Well yes, removes the religious indoctrination of children from public schools. If you are of a particular faith and want your children to be of that faith – teach them about it at home and at your local church, chapel, mosque, temple, synagogue or gathering in the forest.

Dear Guesthorse

Has you are so knowledgable and articulate with words,I presumed sarcasium to be in your volcabuary! In respect of your ridiculous notions regarding positive benefits of PC "banning all religious content from religious festivals" .this can only lead to more segregation within the community.I'm sure other religious faiths would not accept this or does it just apply to christians?Perhaps this is pro PC ideology

[mahtin]

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Ooops sorry, what I should have said is........ Happy Holidays!

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all... and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2009, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "America" in the Western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, or sexual orientation of the wishee.

This wish is limited to the customary and usual good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first."Holiday" is not intended to, nor shall it be considered, limited to the usual Judeo-Christian celebrations or observances, or to such activities of any organized or ad hoc religious community, group, individual or belief (or lack thereof).

DISCLAIMER: By accepting this greeting, you are accepting the following terms: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher at any time, for any reason or for no reason at all. This greeting is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. This greeting implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for the wishee, him/herself or others, or responsibility for the consequences which may arise from the implementation or non-implementation of same.

This greeting is void where prohibited by law.

Not valid in KY, CA, or District of Columbia

Edited December 19, 2008 by mahtin

[DC1066]

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Ooops sorry, what I should have said is........ Happy Holidays!

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all... and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2009, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "America" in the Western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, or sexual orientation of the wishee.

This wish is limited to the customary and usual good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first."Holiday" is not intended to, nor shall it be considered, limited to the usual Judeo-Christian celebrations or observances, or to such activities of any organized or ad hoc religious community, group, individual or belief (or lack thereof).

DISCLAIMER: By accepting this greeting, you are accepting the following terms: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher at any time, for any reason or for no reason at all. This greeting is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. This greeting implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for the wishee, him/herself or others, or responsibility for the consequences which may arise from the implementation or non-implementation of same.

This greeting is void where prohibited by law.

Not valid in KY, CA, or District of Columbia

I was hoping someone would find this - I couldn't.

Thank you for your greeting and in return I wish you, A Very Merry Christmas.

[bonobo]

OK, I am a little bit curious.  It seems to me that most posts here fall to the extremes (i.e, all PC'ers are nazi thought controllers and all nati-PC'ers are racist cretins.)

Guesthouse, you just posted asking Super Hans why he thinks PC is such a bad thing. Well, I think there is another option.  It is that PC is generally a pretty good thing but can be taken to excess. I fall in that category myself and thought almost all people who criticize PC wuold fall into that category.  It took Garro's post on that to make me realize that this was not always the case.

So if I can take the liberty to slightly nudge the orignal question, how many people think PC is perfect and without fault, how many think it is a cesspit of wrong thinking, and how many people think it has achieved good for society but can run to excesses?

(I can't believe that in a Thailand forum, the thread in which I have posted the most times is one concerning PC.)

[GuestHouse]

You'll have to remind me where anyone here is suggesting banning religion content from religious festivals.

Or is this yet another example of Anti-PC Hyperbole?

Keeping religion out of schools is something else. The French, you may recall are doing just that and, as a point of note, it is a policy they apply to all faiths... including the Christians.

Nothing to do with 'Political Correctness' not a Crusade against Christianity (excuse the Pun) simply the segregation of state and religion. You do not have to be a supporter of Political Correctness to support the Segregation of Religion and State, clearly not, since it is a concept that predates Political Correctness.

[Super Hans]

Once again, the topic under discussion is ThaiVisa Members and Political Correctness. Clearly Super Hans, you have a problem with Political Correctness, but you have yet to make a case why you believe it to be such a bad thing. Second hand reports of what other people think are not a case. Rants against where others live/work or what their level of wealth/education is are not a case against Political Correctness either.

How's about telling us exactly how Political Correctness directly impacts your life and they way you live your life.

We might then get a chance to see your point of view in terms of you rather than by proxy in terms of what you tell us others think.

1. Rants? I thought I was very reserved, actually. Your experiences of working in a repressive regime like SA are NOT representative of the majority of workers within that regime, so are irrelevant. How easy it is to see the good in the world with a full belly! Your point about working in Rome and not agreeing with everything the Pope does is just risible.

2. Garro asked why people have a problem with PC and I provided a list. I suggest you go back and read it. As with all bullies, he posed the question, yet had no interest in the answers. He (and you) seek nothing but validation of your existing views. He (and you) have learned a, like, really beautiful theory on how we should all love each other, man, and it's, like, such a massive bummer others' don't get it, man. It's childlike, 6th form politics at its very worst, and is embarrassing for those of us that have grown out of that mindset. Some people never do. Some can't. It would result in their whole belief system unraveling, something they are too emotionally immature to endure. He (and you) are naive, do not understand human beings as animals, do not understand evolution of cultures, do not understand history or global politics. He (and you) do not understand human nature.

PC today is a "bad" thing because it's goals were achieved YEARS ago. The UK fundamentally restructured in order to accommodate a rapidly changing demographic. It did this very successfully. What we have now is a group of people who are piggybacking it in order to further THEIR personal agendas. It is a coalition of loonies. Societies need to evolve slowly and NATURALLY, not have ideologies imposed upon them.

Ultimately, we are tribal and/or territorial animals. We overlook this at our peril.

As for my background, rabid PCer until I started as an economist with the Home Office in 1994. I have seen PC close up, my friend. I have seen it in action, my friend. I have seen it creeping throughout education, throughout health, throughout the law, throughout communities, throughout all aspects of our everyday lives. I very much doubt you have. I have seen who benefits from it, and it ain't the people it purports to represent.

You are clearly trolling, but I would urge the likes of Garro to do a little more reading on the subject. He needs to open his mind and not see things in such, ahem, black and white terms. We are human beings for god's sake! The ultimate endgame for political correctness is for us all to be good little worker drones, who can never question, never complain, never criticise. <deleted> to that. I say fight the power.

[bonobo]

You'll have to remind me where anyone here is suggesting banning religion content from religious festivals.

Or is this yet another example of Anti-PC Hyperbole?

Keeping religion out of schools is something else. The French, you may recall are doing just that and, as a point of note, it is a policy they apply to all faiths... including the Christians.

Nothing to do with 'Political Correctness' not a Crusade against Christianity (excuse the Pun) simply the segregation of state and religion. You do not have to be a supporter of Political Correctness to support the Segregation of Religion and State, clearly not, since it is a concept that predates Political Correctness.

Once again, there is a difference between teaching religion as a subject and advocating a specific religion.  The Separation of the Church and State (which is actually a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson and has no real legal basis in and of itself) is provided for by the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.  While French law may in fact ban teaching of religion in schools (frankly I am not familiar if it is or not), in the US, there is no legal basis for banning the teaching of religions.  And since religions have had a huge impact on world history, I quite frankly think it is impossible to adequately teach history without also teaching about various religions. We might as well agree with Japanese schools teaching that there was in "incident" in Nanking during the war where brave Japanese soldiers defended themselves. Adjusting history to suit politcal ends has no place in the classroom.

[GuestHouse]

(I can't believe that in a Thailand forum, the thread in which I have posted the most times is one concerning PC.)

I opened the thread because of my observation that Political Correctness is a subject that so often comes up on TV with respect to people's thoughts and feelings about their country of origin.

Thanks for speaking up for SP, but I'm looking forward to SP speaking for himself, replacing SP's quotes of what he claims other people have said to him with you speaking for SP is not an improvement.

With respect to your question about Political Correctness, I would be extremely surprised if anyone claims it to perfect and without fault, I certainly do not.

But look at what it is combatting, look at excesses of the various prejudices (need I list them again). I'm not aware of Political Correctness ever leading to hate crimes, wars or genocide.

[Geekfreaklover]

(I can't believe that in a Thailand forum, the thread in which I have posted the most times is one concerning PC.)

I opened the thread because of my observation that Political Correctness is a subject that so often comes up on TV with respect to people's thoughts and feelings about their country of origin.

Thanks for speaking up for SP, but I'm looking forward to SP speaking for himself, replacing SP's quotes of what he claims other people have said to him with you speaking for SP is not an improvement.

With respect to your question about Political Correctness, I would be extremely surprised if anyone claims it to perfect and without fault, I certainly do not.

But look at what it is combatting, look at excesses of the various prejudices (need I list them again). I'm not aware of Political Correctness ever leading to hate crimes, wars or genocide.

Oh come on GH, you are simply looking for an argument. PC not leading to / provoking hate cimes?

Edited December 19, 2008 by Geekfreaklover

[GuestHouse]

SP, my point about living at Rome and agreeing on all this with the Pope is indeed risible, but then it is the corollary of the argument you have made over me working in Saudi Arabia. I'm pleased you now recognize if for what it is.

Going back to your list... It was you that suggested Political Correctness will start wars? - Yeh Right!

The teaching/spreading of hate, fear, xenophobia, the twisting or religion.... these things are forgotten I suppose?!

[GuestHouse]

Oh come on GH, you are simply looking for an argument. PC not leading to / provoking hate cimes?

Well I'm not sure about an argument, but if you wish to argue that Political Correctness has/does lead to hate crimes or that racism, homophobia, and any number of other prejudices are not an issue in hate crimes, then we can at least have an interesting conversation.

[Super Hans]

You'll have to remind me where anyone here is suggesting banning religion content from religious festivals.

Or is this yet another example of Anti-PC Hyperbole?

Keeping religion out of schools is something else. The French, you may recall are doing just that and, as a point of note, it is a policy they apply to all faiths... including the Christians.

Nothing to do with 'Political Correctness' not a Crusade against Christianity (excuse the Pun) simply the segregation of state and religion. You do not have to be a supporter of Political Correctness to support the Segregation of Religion and State, clearly not, since it is a concept that predates Political Correctness.

But PC blurs the lines between individual and collective freedoms, surely?

As you mention France's approach to religion and politics, I think we can learn a great deal from it. Their approach is, I think, "you're not Christian, or Muslim or Jew - you're French" Consequently, they can ban the veil in schools, for instance, without the rapid nutjobs screaming about their human rights.

This seems a very sensible way path to follow. Reasonable policies, reasonably implemented is the way to go. These policies need to be open to challenge without fear of prejudice or reprisal. THAT is the trick the PCers miss.

[bonobo]

(I can't believe that in a Thailand forum, the thread in which I have posted the most times is one concerning PC.)

 

Thanks for speaking up for SP, but I'm looking forward to SP speaking for himself, replacing SP's quotes of what he claims other people have said to him with you speaking for SP is not an improvement.

I didn't realize I was speaking up for him. I think he can speak for himself pretty well without my help

With respect to your question about Political Correctness, I would be extremely surprised if anyone claims it to perfect and without fault, I certainly do not.

Well, that is sort of the impression that has been given, whether you intended that or not.

But look at what it is combatting, look at excesses of the various prejudices (need I list them again). I'm not aware of Political Correctness ever leading to hate crimes, wars or genocide.

And I think that I have posted several times that the excesses of PC are not as bad as teh excesses of teh other end of the spectrum. And while I do not have any specific cases at my fingertips, I do believe that a reaction to PC action has resulted in hate crimes.  

And if you think about it, examine the word "political" in PC. That means not saying what one feels but rather what is expected of you, what a group says is right or wrong to think or say. I watched a television show the other day about the Japanese occupation of the philippines, and one old soldier regretted that he did not speak up when Filipina women and children were ordered killed. Why didn't he? Well, that would be going against the politically correct views, at least to the Japanese military, that Filipinos did not have the same rights as "real" humans.

BUt lets look at the more common definition of PC.  The American Heritage Dictionary defines it as: 

Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.

Think about it for a second. Doesn't that sound like the party line for Hitler and the Nazi Party? They said they had to equalize centuries of injustice suffered at the hands of the thieiving and subhuman Jews?

Now beforer anyone goes off half-cocked, I am not likening anyone here, or any PC advocate, for that matter, to Nazism or the Japanese Imperial Army.  I have writen it before and I am writing it again, I think most PC advocates are decent, good people. But I just throw that out to show that PC can not only be used to excess by well-intentioned people, but it can also be used by a tool of evil.

[LadyHeather]

You'll have to remind me where anyone here is suggesting banning religion content from religious festivals.

Or is this yet another example of Anti-PC Hyperbole?

Keeping religion out of schools is something else. The French, you may recall are doing just that and, as a point of note, it is a policy they apply to all faiths... including the Christians.

Nothing to do with 'Political Correctness' not a Crusade against Christianity (excuse the Pun) simply the segregation of state and religion. You do not have to be a supporter of Political Correctness to support the Segregation of Religion and State, clearly not, since it is a concept that predates Political Correctness.

But PC blurs the lines between individual and collective freedoms, surely?

As you mention France's approach to religion and politics, I think we can learn a great deal from it. Their approach is, I think, "you're not Christian, or Muslim or Jew - you're French" Consequently, they can ban the veil in schools, for instance, without the rapid nutjobs screaming about their human rights.

This seems a very sensible way path to follow. Reasonable policies, reasonably implemented is the way to go. These policies need to be open to challenge without fear of prejudice or reprisal. THAT is the trick the PCers miss.

While we may, perhaps learn a great deal from it, what we might learn is that France's policies have not been a roaring success concerning non-Christian French citizens. You might consider this website, which is a series of articles regarding the massive riots of 2005.

http://riotsfrance.ssrc.org/

Edited December 19, 2008 by LadyHeather

[GuestHouse]

But PC blurs the lines between individual and collective freedoms, surely?

Or it defines a relationship between individual freedom and individual responsibility. "Be accountable for your deeds and words and the impact they have on others".

This is not a denial of being human and tribal, but an acceptance of the nature of people to react to arbitrary segregation of individuals or minority groups on the basis of race, age, gender, religion, body shape..... Nothing naive about it.

[Geekfreaklover]

I don't have time for an interesting conversation, as it is getting late here. But I think that you will find that with all the good intentions that political correctness has to offer (and i do think that PC will benifit western humanity in the long run) it works against certain social conditions already established. This is the point, of course. Some people do not like change. Some people will fight against change, especailly if the cost of change is a compromise to the status que to which they are used to.

As for examples of hate crimes caused by PC. Pick up the Sun or the Daily (Hate) Mail newspaper. Have a look what is happening in certain UK northern cities. You know it, I know it. PC causes hate crimes.

[Super Hans]

(I can't believe that in a Thailand forum, the thread in which I have posted the most times is one concerning PC.)

But look at what it is combatting, look at excesses of the various prejudices (need I list them again). I'm not aware of Political Correctness ever leading to hate crimes, wars or genocide.

Yet...

Interesting you mention genocide. How do you differentiate PC with, say, the cultural revolution? Or Pol Pot's Cambodian regime? Or ethnic cleansing in the Balkans? Isn't it all about forcing an ideology onto people? Aren't people like Garro zealot enough to unquestioningly follow their beliefs to their ultimate conclusion? I'm sure all you're arguments in favour of it all being just 'anti PC hyperbole' could be equally applied to those fearing the movement in 1930s nazi Germany. It is not the nature of the ideology, it's the ideology itself that is the danger. All ideology is open to abuse, irrespective of its original intentions.

In terms of war, a society pisses off its indigenous underclass at its peril. Right now they have their Maccy Ds and gallons of blue pop. If the economy really goes tits up, there will be a backlash. We have virtual apartheid in this country as it is - it won't take much to tip this over into outright civil war. It is baffling why the PC brigade cannot see the inherent dangers to their approach. To be unwilling to consider this as even a possibility is unforgivable in a modern democracy. No socio-economic group is targeted more by PCers than the white underclass. One day they may rebel. Even if they don't, they TOTALLY reject PC anyway, and it just pisses them off.

BTW SP = SH? Off to the correctional facility you go.