Problem With Termites -

[xerostar]

Most discussions on this forum about termites are about how to prevent or treat

termites in and around houses.

I need some help with another specific problem.

We planted a lot of shrubs and trees back in July.

We returned to the property last week expecting to see flourishing plants twice the size.

However I was astonished to find little growth has taken place since we left in July.

Now it appears that termites have been chewing away at the new

plants and have nearly killed them in some cases.

The mud tracks are visible on some tree trunks.

They have been eating the coconut husks of the young coconut plants as well

and the plants are looking fairly sick - dead leaves and no increase in height.

A local shop sold us a bottle of some liquid called

"Folladarn"? Which we mixed 10ml to 20 Litres of water.

It makes a milky coloured liquid with a not-unpleasant smell.

We poured the mixture around each plant in the hope that it will save them.

The liquid we bought cost us 250 Baht for 1.5 litre.

I'm hoping someone can tell us where to buy it in drums

at a cheaper rate, assuming of course this is an effective treatment.

The shop also sold us some powder that is supposed to be placed in the

hole before planting. This apparently prevents termites from getting into

the area - I assume at least until the plant is fully established.

Can anyone offer advice based on experience?

[JungleBiker]

Hi Xerostar,

Sorry I cannot offer you any advice based on experience, but I too have been having problems with termites on plants and a friend recently gave me the following advice:

- use pyrethroid insecticides such as Dragnet FT, Cynoff, Talstar, Demon and Prelude; he also mentioned fipronil and imidocloprid (I hope he, and in turn I, got the spellings correct)

- spray the insecticide on the soil around the base of the affected plants and also neighboring plants.

- see the web site: http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/entomology/444-...444-500.html#L3

I have not yet tried the above recommendations so cannot say if they work or not.

Regarding what you were advised, I think the first chemical you mentioned, i.e. "Folladarn" is actually written in English as "Folidol" (though there are several variations with similar but different spellings which are copycat products). This chemical probably will kill the termites but may also kill everything else including you. That is why it is popular in this part of the world because it does work; it is also a favorite method for committing suicide (I am not joking). It is very toxic (probably the most dangerous pesticide in the world) and it is banned in Laos where I am operating but is still widely available and is being sold alongside food products in the markets! Perhaps it is banned in Thailand too, I don't know. Folidol is a trade name, the common name of the active ingredient is parathion. You can read about this product here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parathion I recommend you not to use it!

I think the other product you mention (to put in the planting hole) is probably "Furadan" - small purple/black-coloured granules. Common chemical name is carbofuran - and it is also one of the most toxic pesticides in the world though still legal in most countries. There is talk of this product being banned in the USA. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbofuran

I suggest you try my friend's advice instead of using these two products. Please let us know the results. Good luck.

Best regards,

JB.

[xerostar]

Thanks for that reply Junglebiker

I first used a knapsack sprayer to apply the emulsion.

The tank had a tiny leak in the base which resulted in my shorts getting a good soaking on the right buttock area.

After a few minutes I began to get a burning sensation in the right buttock.

It felt similar to when one has a shot for penicillin - not terribly painful, but unpleasant.

I soon went and had a shower and the feeling slowly subsided.

No apparent after effects today, apart from a headache, but that might have been the beer last night.

-but I will be more careful now.

I see that Parathion has a rotten egg smell - but this chemical I used has a sweet, pleasant smell.

Maybe it's the methyl derivative?

It never occurred to me that I could buy and use chemicals that are dangerous.

Then I should have known - in Thailand, anything is possible!

After tending to each plant, I feel that part of the problem is that my BIL has not doing any maintenance since planting!

and the watering has not been consistent, so maybe the plants have had to deal with some long dry spells?

Maybe the termites could see the plants were ready for recycling?

I broke open one of the dead coconut plants - phew - what a stink!

Only about 5 coconut plants out of 35 were dead, the rest are struggling but should do better now.

Today I weeded around all the plants and dug out a little dam around each plant to hold the water.

I will make sure they get a daily watering from now on and will add a little general purpose fertiliser.

Fingers crossed!

OK I will let you know how they progress.

[Smithson]

It's interesting that the termites were attacking the husks, I use husks as mulch and have never had a problem with termites eating them, although they attack the cardboard I also use. Also, coconut timber is not attacked by termites.

So if the critters were eaten your coconuts my guess is it's because the plants we weak and lacked the natural defense.

Thais are crazy about pesticides, our worker loves to spray 'R85' everywhere. Besides the possible dangers from poisons, they also kill indiscriminately. Which means that a lot of the insects and microorganisms required to break down organic fertilizers will also die.

We have a couple of young coconut trees and they don't look that great, although our worker says they're doing fine. He says the like salt, but I'm not game to apply it for fear of killing them.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Smithson

[drtreelove]

JungleBiker is on the right track for a chemical approach, with his friend's advise to use pyrethroids. Pyrethroids are synthetic pyrethrin (chrysanthemum flower extract) Permethrin and new generation formualtions like cypermethrin and alphacypermethin as in "Chaindrite Stedfast 4" are good for a preventive barrier drench. I have used permethrin extensively as a tree and landscape pest control specialist in the US, and also on my small farm outside of Chiang Mai. It is not without a downside, being highly toxic to fish and honeybees. But it is relatively low toxicity compared to some other pesticides. In the US it is rated as Caution (category III), I and II being more toxic.

In California, we use permethrin as a trunk drench ("banding treatment") for prevention of bark beetles and borers in pines and oaks. It has to be mixed in a strong solution to provide a residual barrier. We spray-coat the lower 4 to 8 feet of tree trunk and get a 5 month residual effect using 36.8% permethrin mixed at 2 quarts per 100 gallons (.6 ounce per gallon). I'd have to sit down and do the math again to get the mix rates for the Thai products.

I mention this because the same material can be used in the same way for termites, as a soil and bark drench. I'm not a termite control expert because they usually do not invade healthy tree tissues, but the damage they cause to the bark here in Thailand can be extensive and destroy the protective function of the bark, destroying conductive tissue and opening to fungal infection and other pests.

In MaeJo we had Lamyai (Longan) and Mango orchards. The termites didn't bother the lamyai, but they do go to the mango trees, run up the bark and eventually do a lot of damage. When I see them, I scrape off the exterior tunnels and drench the soil at the base of the tree trunk as well as the lower tree trunk itself with Chaindrite Stedfast 4, sorry I forget the % and mix rate, but you have to go a lot stronger than for household ant and cockroach control.

A super effective termiticide is Fipronil, the active ingredient in the dog and cat, flea and tick med, Frontline. You can also use this for a drench barrier (available in Thailand as Agenda 25ec, Bayer/BASF) But you have to be very careful and selective in using this chemical outdoors in the concentrations required for termite control. It is a floride based pesticide and you can search and read about some very disturbing effects of this class of pesticide on the declining honeybee populations. Restrict use to spot sprays and don't use as foliar canopy spray.

I am in favor of least toxic approach to pest control, but haven't had the opportunity to explore termite control with category IV (botanical) pesticides like neem (Sadao) -azedarectin, or lemongrass solutions that are used for general pest control by local organic gardeners. I just bought some 3% azedarectin pesticide for chewing insect control, so will look for some termites to try it on. If any other members have experience with this or other control measures I would be happy to know. Don

[JungleBiker]

Hi Don,

Thanks for sharing your experience and info. I have a friend who sells neem oil for a living, so I'll ask him if he knows anything about its effect on termites.

JB.

[drtreelove]

JB mentioned a recomendation for imidocloprid. I don't know how it is being used for termites. It is very effective for certain insect pests on ornamentals, but I would caution about using this on food producing plants as it is a systemic pesticide. It is taken up by the roots if soil injected, or through the foliage if sprayed, and distributed systemically throughout the plant. So it would concievably go into the fruit and could be injested.

[Lickey]

I had to use a systemic insecticide early last year because mealy bugs and ants were killing the papaya plants,not neem oil but a lathe coolant oil was diluted and sprayed on non-infected plants and they didnt get the mealy bugs, 600bht 5ltrs, 1/2 ltr to 25ltr water dilution.

I regularily paint grease bands round the base of our fruit trees to keep the termites out,

I have a papaya patch 200 plants [no fert or insecticides used] which are doing well, also banana,tamarind, kanoon,mango,orange,makua that i know i can eat with no fear of chemicals inside,

To sumarise Don, i would say that 95% of the fruit on a thai market has a chemical in it, Thais love chemicals and the more the better of course!!

Going on a bit i suppose but weve just started the tamarind picking, they were going to get a bit of fert last year at the start of the rainy season but a big storm took of all the flower buds, the 60 trees did finally get pruned and weve had a fairly good crop, didnt sell to a wholesaler but selling them outside mrs salon with banana and papaya, 60bht kilo, neighbour wanted a load,[food and drinks store] mrs agreed, 45bht kilo bagged ready to sell, @70bht, neighbour was selling more than us, she wanted more, i said to mrs, no, tell her we have to wait for next month picking, so she got some from elsewhere, within an hour or so her customers were bringing them back saying they were full with ants or green or tasteless...

For the last 2 weeks, Tamarind are the best sellers at the front of the salon, topping 4.5k a week, and thers still 3 months to go!good news? they dont owe us anything, only the picking at 150bht a day, 1 man,3 times a week.

How about an organic farming thread, including bio-gas/digesters, anything without chemicals??

Cheers, Lickey..

[drtreelove]

Lickey, What's a lathe coolant oil and how do you figure it's a systemic insecticide? I've never heard of that one, please tell more.

Grease as a trunk band, like the popular sticky stuff called 'Tanglefoot', may work, but I would be afraid to use straight petroleum grease on thin barked trees for fear of the grease saturating and harming the inner bark and live tissues.

An organic farming/permaculture thread; yes, I'd be very interested. don

[Lickey]

Sorry, got the sentences a little close together with little explanation, as you probaly know, lathe coolant oil is a water soluable and is used in the engineering trade on lathes to keep the metal cutting tool cool,

This was sprayed on the plants that shew little signs of mealy bug infestation, and it certainly stopped them getting infested, its not a systemic but a coating that bugs and aphids dont like.

As for the painted on grease [petroleum based] on papaya plants, it certainly kept the snails off the fruit, a lot of the papaya was inter-cropped with banana, planted at the same time, they are both sun-seekers and it seems the banana have won, a lot of papaya have died off after the rainy season, i can only put that down to wet feet which they dont like. [heavy clay soil and banana giving to much shade]

Cheers Lickey.

[GungaDin]

G'day Lickey.....

Can I grow Bananas in large containers.?

End use is as a screen from my backyard neighbours.

Is there a certain fruiting species I should ask for?

cheers

[Smithson]

Does anyone have info on the insecticide R85? Considering the lax laws and attitude of the locals, I've banned any pesticides from our property, but the guy who looks after our land claims R85 is safe.

[Lickey]

G'day Lickey.....

Can I grow Bananas in large containers.?

End use is as a screen from my backyard neighbours.

Is there a certain fruiting species I should ask for?

cheers

Sorry for the late reply Gungadin, yes you can grow in containers, the following web site will give you the details on soil ect, as a shade plant, i would think a pot of 18in dia and 18in deep will give you a plant of around 2.5 mtrs tall, we grow cavendish and Ladies Fingers and 2 other varieteys i dont know the name of, these are a bit susecpteble to Black Sigatoka and Fusarium Wilt, which is the worst, in my case any way,

When buying culms they should about 6-10 bht, and near a mtr tall, even at this early stage if there is any sign of black on the emerging leaves, dont buy, and as a final test, cut the leaves off about 4 in below from where they sprout, if there is any dark discolouration in the rings atall, avoid these too,

Other things come to mind as well, you ask the seller, are these cavendish? he says yes, are these ladies fingers? he says yes, you say are they virus resistant? he says yes!but you know all that anyway!

Here are the sites,

for planting and care http://www.banana-tree.com/Banana_Tip.cfm something they didnt put in is about pot drainage, i put some clay bricks in the bottom of our mini-palm pots to make sure the soil wont block the drain hole.

http://www.daff.gov.au/aqis/quarantine/naq...s/fusarium-wilt this diesease is terminal, contaminats the ground for decades

http://www.daff.gov.au/aqis/quarantine/naq.../black-sigatoka this is the one you can see on small culms.

Sorry for spelling, ive been picking, sorting ,bagging ,eating .sweet tamarind all day, Cheers, Lickey..

[GungaDin]

Great info, Lickey, thanks.

Have you come across this beauty yet?

[Lickey]

Does anyone have info on the insecticide R85? Considering the lax laws and attitude of the locals, I've banned any pesticides from our property, but the guy who looks after our land claims R85 is safe.

Hi Smithson, i cant find R85 on any web site, but it does come up with

Chlorpyrifos quite a lot, i have used it in the past on mealy bugs and ants, once used, the area is totally devoid of any insect life, worms leap out of the ground and funghi grows, so it definitely kills the ants, stopping them nicking the funghi spores, but i wouldnt eat them either after spraying that stuff, even with a full mask, it gives me a blinding headache and i use the right dillutions,

Heres 2 sites to look at, i keep them in my favourites,,http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/document/fedrup.htm http://gardentia.net/gardening_notes12.htm

Cheers, Lickey..

[Smithson]

^ Thanks Lickey, when he said it was safe it was probably compared to DDT. He used the stuff without asking me, it's also commonly used to spray some trees killing the red ants and making harvesting easier. This would mean that mangoes etc. sold in markets may be coated in the stuff.

Recent events have reminded me of the complete carelessness over here. Everything is always OK, there is no danger and nothing needs to be checked before proceeding.

My wife just made an insecticide using EM and Lao Cow, I'm not sure how effective it is, but the Loa Cow alone is deadly stuff.

[fredge45]

Thank you to Lickey for the suggestion of using lathe cooling oil... I had searched in vain to date for a soluble oil for use in spraying. Never did the necessary lateral thinking to go for the lathe oil. :jap:

The soluble oil is great for smothering the eggs, and some larvae, of pests as it coats them making it impossible for "breathing" to occur. Wahes off from rain or sprinler action but just being there for several days to a week did the trick for me when I used it before.

[oldestswinger]

I'm interested in the use of neem - sadao- as a protection against termites.

We have quite a few big sadao trees and every year some of them have their trunks and branches covered with the termites' " crust". It appears that the termites are eating the bark but that there is no permanent damage to the trees. Clearly there must be a difference in the chemical compositions of the berries and the bark.

[drtreelove]

I'm interested in the use of neem - sadao- as a protection against termites.

We have quite a few big sadao trees and every year some of them have their trunks and branches covered with the termites' " crust". It appears that the termites are eating the bark but that there is no permanent damage to the trees. Clearly there must be a difference in the chemical compositions of the berries and the bark.

Most termite activity on trees is confined to dead wood, outer bark and inactive heartwood in decay cavities; they usually don't go into live tissue. The primary pest control substance in neem is azadirachtin, which is most concentrated in the seed oil. I'm not surprised that the termites can tolerate feeding on the outer bark and deadwood where the aza is least concentrated, or maybe even absent.

I have not heard of neem being used effectively for termite control, probably because of short period of effectiveness when applied, and it's not a poison, but more like a repellent and reproductive disruptor; even concentrated formulations need repeat applications at one week to 10 day intervals to bring a pest population under control. That's a good thing for organic farmers, minimal residual environmental contamination and effect on beneficial critters, but it compromises cost-effectiveness and manpower allocation. Who is going to be able to do weekly applications? And termites, they keep on coming.

The trend here in California for structural termite control is with Dupont Altriset (Chlorantraniliprole 18.4%, a new generation pesticide with category 4 = no signal word for toxicity rating for humans). If anyone sees this product in Thailand please let me know. I have looked into this a bit while in Thailand and found that a possible best choice for termite control (due to effectiveness, availability and low toxicity for mammals) is Fipronil, a pyrethroid. (not 'organic') But use it only on foundation and baseboard structural applications and not broadcast spraying out of doors, as it is highly toxic to fish and honeybees (like termites, bees take it back home and it kills entire colonies).

But I'm just an old tree doctor who tries to stay up on 'least-toxic' pest control stuff, not a chemical expert, so do your own research.

BTW, when I had a mango and longan orchards in Chiang Mai, besides weekly inspections and knocking off the termite tunnels on the lower trunks, I started using a permethrin trunk drench to discourange termites and borers. It's the same treatment that we use here in California for prevention of bark beetles on pines and oaks. PM me for mixing rate. don

Edited April 15, 2011 by drtreelove

[teletiger]

We have a couple of young coconut trees and they don't look that great, although our worker says they're doing fine. He says the like salt, but I'm not game to apply it for fear of killing them.

My neighbour recommended salt for coconuts too. I poo-pooed it. My wife started to pour the waste saltwater, from washing vegtables, onto 1 of 2 palms we have in large pots. (Parlour palms) The experiment only lasted about 6 weeks. The salted palm is now twice the size of the unsalted one.

We also make our own coconut oil and the residue left over from boiling down the cream is (also) extremely saline. Also the fact that coconut palms thrive on the sea shore.....

Regards.

Edit: Gosh....that's too many 'alsos'.

Edit: just to get back on topic, I hosed down the trunks of a couple of mango trees every night, for about a week and that really worked well. They were both quite "trail ridden" at their bases' and had started to lose leaves on their lower branches. It would be hard work in a full orchard though.

Edited April 22, 2011 by teletiger