New Government

[younghusband]

Thaksin banged up in jail......military silent coup..... civil war.

Thaksin out of the country.....military silent coup......international condemnation.

Which route would you go?

Prisoners would have to be very desperate to gang bang Thaksin in prison... but then again, there are a number of desperate people in prisons.

Still, if he is sent to prison, it would go a long way to set a new standard (unprecedented prosecution and conviction were tremendously productive first steps) for politicians holding the premier position.

The trickle-down effect could a long way to begin to deal with the ingrained corruption across the board as well as create increased confidence and praise from the international community.

Classy post.

Thaksin is in exile and the charges against him were frankly trifling (the major human rights charges weren't made).For the much more serious terrorist charges against the PAD leadership, there's no reason why immediate action - trial and jail sentences-shouldn't be brought as it would in any normal country.Oh wait isn't the Foreign Minister an accomplice?

I wouldn't characterize the potential for decades in prison if he's convicted in the half dozen or so cases against him as "trifling." I'm sure he doesn't think so if he's looking at a release date of 2030.

What specifically are the "terrorist" charges against PAD leaders? And why on Earth would they take precedence when some of Thaksin's charges predates any alleged offense on their part by years and years?

Except in the crazed Alice in Wonderland world of Thai politics taking over and shutting down the country's main airports is a major terrorist outrage.In any major country Sondhi, Chamlong etc would be in prison awaiting trial.I'm not saying Thaksin shouldn't face the charges against him (minor in comparison to the PAD leadership's actions), notwithstanding the politicisation of the courts.

The world, to the extent it can be bothered with Thailand's silliness given other pre-occupations, is just transfixed by the comical contrast between the severity of the crackdown on PPP/TRT elements (Samak's cooking programme was a highlight) and the sensitive understanding of PAD terrorism.

[younghusband]

I agree with them, it is indeed a fascinating story which I would recommend reading, somewhat adjusted in later re-telling by himself, but starting with his great-grandfather who as a Chinese migrant a hundred years earlier became a 'tax farmer' for the Siamese government. Which makes him pretty much establishment.

You underestimate the extent to which Thaksin was an outsider to the Bangkok elite.Certainly he was from an established Chiengmai family but he was never "establishment", too vulgar, coarse and ambitious.British counterpart - though it doesn't quite work- might be Michael Heseltine, the sort of man a Tory grandee sniffily remarked who "brought his own furniture"

Good point. So you'd say that the establishment is, by definition, solely Bangkok ?

If you don't understand what the establishment means in this context, I'm not sure how best to respond.The Bangok aspect isn't particularly important but as with most countries the capital is where power bases are generally found.

[Plus]

First Thaksin wasn't the elite because of his poor background, now that was proven to be rubbish and he isn't the elite because he is not Bangkokian, even more laughable charge.

Bangkok is awash with people from provinces who made it big, including descendants of Chinese immigrants.

The fact is Thaksin was as "elite" as they come.

>>>>

I specifically asked for possible charges against PAD, all we get in reply is "terrorism".

Let me clarify it a bit - did they break into the control tower? Did they break into any secure areas? Did they use force against airport security during this "takeover"?

What exactly do you want them to be charged with? They blocked the road, true, there were present in public areas of the terminal, but that's not even trespassing.

[younghusband]

First Thaksin wasn't the elite because of his poor background, now that was proven to be rubbish and he isn't the elite because he is not Bangkokian, even more laughable charge.

Bangkok is awash with people from provinces who made it big, including descendants of Chinese immigrants.

The fact is Thaksin was as "elite" as they come.

>>>>

I specifically asked for possible charges against PAD, all we get in reply is "terrorism".

Let me clarify it a bit - did they break into the control tower? Did they break into any secure areas? Did they use force against airport security during this "takeover"?

What exactly do you want them to be charged with? They blocked the road, true, there were present in public areas of the terminal, but that's not even trespassing.

It seems you need to do some homework on the meaning of establishment, although I suspect you know as well as I do.I'm not making a weighty point here but it's worth pointing oit much of the antagonism towards Thaksin (often justified I agree) was compounded by snobbery.

--------

The airport authorities closed the installation for safety reasons.You seem to be arguing this leaves PAD off the hook.I've heard this line before and find it strangely childish.On this kind of logic Britain was responsible for WW2 because it declared war on Germany.

The arguments should be thrashed out in court and the PAD leadership should in my view be denied bail given the seriousness of the charges.Again reality check required.Do you seriously suppose that if a similar band of creeps tried this stunt in a major country, they would not be behind bars? Do you seriously think that if the Tokyo airport authorities were compelled to close Narita for similar safety reasons, the responsible terrorists would be off the hook? But then, as we're always being told, the normal rules don't apply in Thailand.

[Thai at Heart]

First Thaksin wasn't the elite because of his poor background, now that was proven to be rubbish and he isn't the elite because he is not Bangkokian, even more laughable charge.

Bangkok is awash with people from provinces who made it big, including descendants of Chinese immigrants.

The fact is Thaksin was as "elite" as they come.

>>>>

I specifically asked for possible charges against PAD, all we get in reply is "terrorism".

Let me clarify it a bit - did they break into the control tower? Did they break into any secure areas? Did they use force against airport security during this "takeover"?

What exactly do you want them to be charged with? They blocked the road, true, there were present in public areas of the terminal, but that's not even trespassing.

All the money in the world can't buy class. It is a most subtle and important difference between classes. In Thailand of all places this is the largest confusion of all with people wai-ing wealth and power not the social contribution or conduct of the individual that comes with the position of the so called upper class.

Thailand even had to create a new name for this type of group, "Hi-so", which in British terms equates probably middle upper as opposed to even upper middle. By class standards he was a businessman made good through a lot of favours given. He is

Mike Ashley (Chairman of Newcastle Utd) not Lord Peel.

I completely disagree that he was as "elite" as they come.

[LaoPo]

I understand what you mean. I have done business with other large name families also. They can make things move if they need to, but their pull in Chiangmai is astronomical I know. I am referring to Thaksin personally more than his family. You are right, the idea of him being a normal poor man come good is a long way from the truth and his family has had money for a long time.

I am referring more to the astounding wealth that he accumulated in his time. I have heard too many people talk about him being seen as nouvean riche and a bit of a geographical outsider from the standpoint that his family completely part of the Bangkok inner circle of people and rarely seeking approval from all the right people to get where he needed to go business wise. He climbed the ladder by playing the game and gaining favours from a lot of important people. The really big family business sector has it's pee's and nongs just like Thai society.

One only needs to look at hi-so magazines with people leaning on their champagne glasses and look at the names that crop up repeatedly as to who are the real insiders in the country. His problem may have been that some of these families are considered to have in some way "built the country" as opposed to simply set up a phone network.

As a question, was Thaksin's father ever recognised with any honours?

As to your last sentence: I don't know.

I have never met Thaksin myself but know people who did, both Thai and Farang. I also don't know if he is a brother to the 2 Shinawatra sisters that I knew/met and of which, one was married to a Frenchman; (they met in university in Paris and married later in Thailand) but the time frame is correct.

The only thing I was aware of was that the Shinawatra family name as such was very powerful and highly respected in Bangkok but that was way before the name Thaksin appeared in Thai history; when I met the family members he must have been in his late twenties/early thirties.

LaoPo

[Meerkat]

I specifically asked for possible charges against PAD, all we get in reply is "terrorism".

Let me clarify it a bit - did they break into the control tower? Did they break into any secure areas? Did they use force against airport security during this "takeover"?

What exactly do you want them to be charged with? They blocked the road, true, there were present in public areas of the terminal, but that's not even trespassing.

Crikey. Where do we start?

How about (in no particular order): trespassing, intimidation, criminal damage, assault, at least one murder or manslaughter, refusing officials access to investigate crime-scenes, slander (a criminal offense here), theft... Weren't some people also held against their will at some point too? I'm sure the list is much longer. Given that many (if not all) of the violent charges would be directed at the PAD “guards”, and Sondhi himself has already stated in an interview that they were being paid by the PAD leadership, then there must be charges laid against them too.

I'm always uncomfortable brandishing charges of “terrorism” about, but I suppose each country's laws define it in their own ways. In Thailand such charges do include damage to a public transport system or infrastructure if the intent is to force the government to do or abstain from any act (Criminal Code section 135). Damage can be interpreted in more than one way (ie is forcing the airports to close considered “damaging” a transport system?), but that is for the relevant authorities to decide of course.

And then of course there is the big one; treason. Again, I don't like chucking that word around, but on the face of it the PAD were breaking the law (many laws) in order to topple the government. So if not treason, there might be a case for incitement.

Just in case anyone's forgotten, the Central Administrative Court has already deemed the protests as illegal and not protected under the Constitution as they were not “without arms”, so the pathetic plaintive cries that they were just doing their constitutional duty as “good citizens” are nothing but just that: pathetic.

[Plus]

It seems you need to do some homework on the meaning of establishment, although I suspect you know as well as I do.I'm not making a weighty point here but it's worth pointing oit much of the antagonism towards Thaksin (often justified I agree) was compounded by snobbery.

You are mudding the waters even further.

Whose antagonism towards Thaksin? He's got his foot in all kinds of doors prior to 2006, inlcuding the royal palace. Who are those elites that Thaksin was excluded from? Was there any society meeting where he was unwelcome?

The airport authorities closed the installation for safety reasons.You seem to be arguing this leaves PAD off the hook.I've heard this line before and find it strangely childish.On this kind of logic Britain was responsible for WW2 because it declared war on Germany.

The arguments should be thrashed out in court and the PAD leadership should in my view be denied bail given the seriousness of the charges.Again reality check required.Do you seriously suppose that if a similar band of creeps tried this stunt in a major country, they would not be behind bars? Do you seriously think that if the Tokyo airport authorities were compelled to close Narita for similar safety reasons, the responsible terrorists would be off the hook? But then, as we're always being told, the normal rules don't apply in Thailand.

Bla bla bla, terrorists, bla bla bla.

What charges?

At least on the first day they haven't done anything overtly illegal. They were just there, in public areas. They might have done something during the week they stayed there but I don't know exactly what and no one would tell.

They didn't block the runway, for example, as those British protesters. They didn't break into the control tower, I'm not even sure they went pass manned immigration checkpoints.

All the money in the world can't buy class. It is a most subtle and important difference between classes. In Thailand of all places this is the largest confusion of all with people wai-ing wealth and power not the social contribution or conduct of the individual that comes with the position of the so called upper class.

Thailand even had to create a new name for this type of group, "Hi-so", which in British terms equates probably middle upper as opposed to even upper middle. By class standards he was a businessman made good through a lot of favours given. He is

Mike Ashley (Chairman of Newcastle Utd) not Lord Peel.

I completely disagree that he was as "elite" as they come.

I don't get your point at all - you say that money can buy power and respect here and many people have done exactly that, but they cannot become "elite"?

Who are those elusive elites then? You were saying something abou having "class". Sure, money can't buy class, but do all the "elites" possess class here? Is it a necessary requirement to become part of Thailand's elite?

Thaksin was as elite as they come, neither you nor I can find any quality that would clearly mark him as un-elite.

And don't forget his wife, too. What's wrong with her if she can't be called part of Thai elite?

[Plus]

trespassing, intimidation, criminal damage, assault, at least one murder or manslaughter, refusing officials access to investigate crime-scenes, slander

Just seen the list. Thanks.

Trespassing is hardly a terrorism charge. Were they in any areas of the airport where public is not supposed to be? Don't tell me "the lawns", or "Stuff only" doors to cleaner's closets.

Intimidation - I agree their presense was intimidating, but did they actually threaten airport authorities in any way? Prior to airport closure?

Criminal damage - like damage to what? Property? The airport was up and running in no time after they left. How much criminal damage was really there?

Assault - what assault specifically?

Murder - you can only link it to the leaders if they were aware of it.

Refusing official access to crime scenes - I'm not aware the police even tried to access crime scenes there.

Slander - how about someone sued you for calling them terrorists? Would it be fair?

[hammered]

So does anyone reckon a deal will be done to bring Mr. t back or a deal to keep him quiet and out of country? Or are we going to allow every thread to degenerate into an airport seizure discussion?

[Thai at Heart]

It seems you need to do some homework on the meaning of establishment, although I suspect you know as well as I do.I'm not making a weighty point here but it's worth pointing oit much of the antagonism towards Thaksin (often justified I agree) was compounded by snobbery.

You are mudding the waters even further.

Whose antagonism towards Thaksin? He's got his foot in all kinds of doors prior to 2006, inlcuding the royal palace. Who are those elites that Thaksin was excluded from? Was there any society meeting where he was unwelcome?

The airport authorities closed the installation for safety reasons.You seem to be arguing this leaves PAD off the hook.I've heard this line before and find it strangely childish.On this kind of logic Britain was responsible for WW2 because it declared war on Germany.

The arguments should be thrashed out in court and the PAD leadership should in my view be denied bail given the seriousness of the charges.Again reality check required.Do you seriously suppose that if a similar band of creeps tried this stunt in a major country, they would not be behind bars? Do you seriously think that if the Tokyo airport authorities were compelled to close Narita for similar safety reasons, the responsible terrorists would be off the hook? But then, as we're always being told, the normal rules don't apply in Thailand.

Bla bla bla, terrorists, bla bla bla.

What charges?

At least on the first day they haven't done anything overtly illegal. They were just there, in public areas. They might have done something during the week they stayed there but I don't know exactly what and no one would tell.

They didn't block the runway, for example, as those British protesters. They didn't break into the control tower, I'm not even sure they went pass manned immigration checkpoints.

All the money in the world can't buy class. It is a most subtle and important difference between classes. In Thailand of all places this is the largest confusion of all with people wai-ing wealth and power not the social contribution or conduct of the individual that comes with the position of the so called upper class.

Thailand even had to create a new name for this type of group, "Hi-so", which in British terms equates probably middle upper as opposed to even upper middle. By class standards he was a businessman made good through a lot of favours given. He is

Mike Ashley (Chairman of Newcastle Utd) not Lord Peel.

I completely disagree that he was as "elite" as they come.

I don't get your point at all - you say that money can buy power and respect here and many people have done exactly that, but they cannot become "elite"?

Who are those elusive elites then? You were saying something abou having "class". Sure, money can't buy class, but do all the "elites" possess class here? Is it a necessary requirement to become part of Thailand's elite?

Thaksin was as elite as they come, neither you nor I can find any quality that would clearly mark him as un-elite.

And don't forget his wife, too. What's wrong with her if she can't be called part of Thai elite?

The fact that he is sitting on his bum in Dubai right now without an Upper Class friend in the country would seem to suggest that he was without a doubt on the outside of the highest echelons of this group.

To answer completely would take pages and pages but, corruption the biggest of all no no's, his apparent insatiable love of money, his lack and familial lack of charitable donation or foundation, his lack of selfless public service, his lack of contribution to the arts, his place of education, his childrens place of education, his childrens choices of careers following on his fathers coat-tails. This is my opinion.

Money ain't enough. If don't have time to show you all the names of all the families I consider to be true insiders, but they all tend to have certain traits in the way they conduct themselves and use their money, and the modern Shinawatra's definitely did not fit the bill.

[Meerkat]

trespassing, intimidation, criminal damage, assault, at least one murder or manslaughter, refusing officials access to investigate crime-scenes, slander

Just seen the list. Thanks.

Trespassing is hardly a terrorism charge. Were they in any areas of the airport where public is not supposed to be? Don't tell me "the lawns", or "Stuff only" doors to cleaner's closets.

Intimidation - I agree their presense was intimidating, but did they actually threaten airport authorities in any way? Prior to airport closure?

Criminal damage - like damage to what? Property? The airport was up and running in no time after they left. How much criminal damage was really there?

Assault - what assault specifically?

Murder - you can only link it to the leaders if they were aware of it.

Refusing official access to crime scenes - I'm not aware the police even tried to access crime scenes there.

Slander - how about someone sued you for calling them terrorists? Would it be fair?

I'm not isolating the airport occupations, but treating the protests in aggregate (I'm not sure why it would be done otherwise). As to me being sued for slander, I'm not calling them terrorists, simply stating the relevant part of the criminal code. It's up to the public prosecutors to determine whether their actions constitute such a charge. Personally I think it's a weaker case than many of the other ones.

[Siripon]

It seems you need to do some homework on the meaning of establishment, although I suspect you know as well as I do.I'm not making a weighty point here but it's worth pointing oit much of the antagonism towards Thaksin (often justified I agree) was compounded by snobbery.

You are mudding the waters even further.

Whose antagonism towards Thaksin? He's got his foot in all kinds of doors prior to 2006, inlcuding the royal palace. Who are those elites that Thaksin was excluded from? Was there any society meeting where he was unwelcome?

The airport authorities closed the installation for safety reasons.You seem to be arguing this leaves PAD off the hook.I've heard this line before and find it strangely childish.On this kind of logic Britain was responsible for WW2 because it declared war on Germany.

The arguments should be thrashed out in court and the PAD leadership should in my view be denied bail given the seriousness of the charges.Again reality check required.Do you seriously suppose that if a similar band of creeps tried this stunt in a major country, they would not be behind bars? Do you seriously think that if the Tokyo airport authorities were compelled to close Narita for similar safety reasons, the responsible terrorists would be off the hook? But then, as we're always being told, the normal rules don't apply in Thailand.

Bla bla bla, terrorists, bla bla bla.

What charges?

At least on the first day they haven't done anything overtly illegal. They were just there, in public areas. They might have done something during the week they stayed there but I don't know exactly what and no one would tell.

They didn't block the runway, for example, as those British protesters. They didn't break into the control tower, I'm not even sure they went pass manned immigration checkpoints.

All the money in the world can't buy class. It is a most subtle and important difference between classes. In Thailand of all places this is the largest confusion of all with people wai-ing wealth and power not the social contribution or conduct of the individual that comes with the position of the so called upper class.

Thailand even had to create a new name for this type of group, "Hi-so", which in British terms equates probably middle upper as opposed to even upper middle. By class standards he was a businessman made good through a lot of favours given. He is

Mike Ashley (Chairman of Newcastle Utd) not Lord Peel.

I completely disagree that he was as "elite" as they come.

I don't get your point at all - you say that money can buy power and respect here and many people have done exactly that, but they cannot become "elite"?

Who are those elusive elites then? You were saying something abou having "class". Sure, money can't buy class, but do all the "elites" possess class here? Is it a necessary requirement to become part of Thailand's elite?

Thaksin was as elite as they come, neither you nor I can find any quality that would clearly mark him as un-elite.

And don't forget his wife, too. What's wrong with her if she can't be called part of Thai elite?

The fact that he is sitting on his bum in Dubai right now without an Upper Class friend in the country would seem to suggest that he was without a doubt on the outside of the highest echelons of this group.

To answer completely would take pages and pages but, corruption the biggest of all no no's, his apparent insatiable love of money, his lack and familial lack of charitable donation or foundation, his lack of selfless public service, his lack of contribution to the arts, his place of education, his childrens place of education, his childrens choices of careers following on his fathers coat-tails. This is my opinion.

Money ain't enough. If don't have time to show you all the names of all the families I consider to be true insiders, but they all tend to have certain traits in the way they conduct themselves and use their money, and the modern Shinawatra's definitely did not fit the bill.

I prefer to call Thaksin privileged as his insufferable arrogance alienated many of what people here call the elite, ie aristocracy, old powerful families and established names.

Regarding Supthep and his 'reaching out' to Thaksin, it's hard to fathom his motives at times and we shouldn't forget he once asked Thaksin to join The Democrat Party in Thaksin's early days in politics; but he could be just posturing now, trying to look conciliatory and generous to the public but knowing full well Thaksin's ego's too big to face a prison cell. On the other hand.....

[hammered]

trespassing, intimidation, criminal damage, assault, at least one murder or manslaughter, refusing officials access to investigate crime-scenes, slander

Just seen the list. Thanks.

Trespassing is hardly a terrorism charge. Were they in any areas of the airport where public is not supposed to be? Don't tell me "the lawns", or "Stuff only" doors to cleaner's closets.

Intimidation - I agree their presense was intimidating, but did they actually threaten airport authorities in any way? Prior to airport closure?

Criminal damage - like damage to what? Property? The airport was up and running in no time after they left. How much criminal damage was really there?

Assault - what assault specifically?

Murder - you can only link it to the leaders if they were aware of it.

Refusing official access to crime scenes - I'm not aware the police even tried to access crime scenes there.

Slander - how about someone sued you for calling them terrorists? Would it be fair?

I'm not isolating the airport occupations, but treating the protests in aggregate (I'm not sure why it would be done otherwise). As to me being sued for slander, I'm not calling them terrorists, simply stating the relevant part of the criminal code. It's up to the public prosecutors to determine whether their actions constitute such a charge. Personally I think it's a weaker case than many of the other ones.

From what I remember the relevent bit of the criminal code includes stuff about intent which makes the case very interpretable and definitley not clear cut. I think there is also something about exceptions too. Lesser charges would be a lot easier to prove.

Anyway whatever charges get brought against the yellow guys and I think there will be some will set the bar for the reds promised action against ASEAN which if carried out will reach a similar height although with foreign diplomats in the firing line the authoriites may not be quite so lenient. The Thai public also seemed embarrassed at the international repuitation damage done by the airport seizure and may expect a far stronger future action on anything similar so it may be a tad different.

[hammered]

It seems you need to do some homework on the meaning of establishment, although I suspect you know as well as I do.I'm not making a weighty point here but it's worth pointing oit much of the antagonism towards Thaksin (often justified I agree) was compounded by snobbery.

You are mudding the waters even further.

Whose antagonism towards Thaksin? He's got his foot in all kinds of doors prior to 2006, inlcuding the royal palace. Who are those elites that Thaksin was excluded from? Was there any society meeting where he was unwelcome?

The airport authorities closed the installation for safety reasons.You seem to be arguing this leaves PAD off the hook.I've heard this line before and find it strangely childish.On this kind of logic Britain was responsible for WW2 because it declared war on Germany.

The arguments should be thrashed out in court and the PAD leadership should in my view be denied bail given the seriousness of the charges.Again reality check required.Do you seriously suppose that if a similar band of creeps tried this stunt in a major country, they would not be behind bars? Do you seriously think that if the Tokyo airport authorities were compelled to close Narita for similar safety reasons, the responsible terrorists would be off the hook? But then, as we're always being told, the normal rules don't apply in Thailand.

Bla bla bla, terrorists, bla bla bla.

What charges?

At least on the first day they haven't done anything overtly illegal. They were just there, in public areas. They might have done something during the week they stayed there but I don't know exactly what and no one would tell.

They didn't block the runway, for example, as those British protesters. They didn't break into the control tower, I'm not even sure they went pass manned immigration checkpoints.

All the money in the world can't buy class. It is a most subtle and important difference between classes. In Thailand of all places this is the largest confusion of all with people wai-ing wealth and power not the social contribution or conduct of the individual that comes with the position of the so called upper class.

Thailand even had to create a new name for this type of group, "Hi-so", which in British terms equates probably middle upper as opposed to even upper middle. By class standards he was a businessman made good through a lot of favours given. He is

Mike Ashley (Chairman of Newcastle Utd) not Lord Peel.

I completely disagree that he was as "elite" as they come.

I don't get your point at all - you say that money can buy power and respect here and many people have done exactly that, but they cannot become "elite"?

Who are those elusive elites then? You were saying something abou having "class". Sure, money can't buy class, but do all the "elites" possess class here? Is it a necessary requirement to become part of Thailand's elite?

Thaksin was as elite as they come, neither you nor I can find any quality that would clearly mark him as un-elite.

And don't forget his wife, too. What's wrong with her if she can't be called part of Thai elite?

The fact that he is sitting on his bum in Dubai right now without an Upper Class friend in the country would seem to suggest that he was without a doubt on the outside of the highest echelons of this group.

To answer completely would take pages and pages but, corruption the biggest of all no no's, his apparent insatiable love of money, his lack and familial lack of charitable donation or foundation, his lack of selfless public service, his lack of contribution to the arts, his place of education, his childrens place of education, his childrens choices of careers following on his fathers coat-tails. This is my opinion.

Money ain't enough. If don't have time to show you all the names of all the families I consider to be true insiders, but they all tend to have certain traits in the way they conduct themselves and use their money, and the modern Shinawatra's definitely did not fit the bill.

I prefer to call Thaksin privileged as his insufferable arrogance alienated many of what people here call the elite, ie aristocracy, old powerful families and established names.

Regarding Supthep and his 'reaching out' to Thaksin, it's hard to fathom his motives at times and we shouldn't forget he once asked Thaksin to join The Democrat Party in Thaksin's early days in politics; but he could be just posturing now, trying to look conciliatory and generous to the public but knowing full well Thaksin's ego's too big to face a prison cell. On the other hand.....

Privileged, arrogant, egomaniacal and increasingly looking meglomaniacal with a touch of the god fetishes.

The Dem government have learned form the mistakes of Samak and Somchai and everything they do seems to be conscilliatory (minus a silly FM pick) which means if the red side and Thaksin dont even offer to meet half wayish they look like trouble makers. Even the PAD leaders made noises about talking to Somchai when he first got to power, and they didnt rally until a while after Samak took the helm. Thaksin and the red side very noticeably dont even try to demonstrate this. Fronm them it is no talk and immediate confrontation and threat. Interesting. Are they totally confident of victory or so desperate and weak that they cannot allow the new guys a chance.

[younghusband]

The airport authorities closed the installation for safety reasons.You seem to be arguing this leaves PAD off the hook.I've heard this line before and find it strangely childish.On this kind of logic Britain was responsible for WW2 because it declared war on Germany.

The arguments should be thrashed out in court and the PAD leadership should in my view be denied bail given the seriousness of the charges.Again reality check required.Do you seriously suppose that if a similar band of creeps tried this stunt in a major country, they would not be behind bars? Do you seriously think that if the Tokyo airport authorities were compelled to close Narita for similar safety reasons, the responsible terrorists would be off the hook? But then, as we're always being told, the normal rules don't apply in Thailand.

Bla bla bla, terrorists, bla bla bla.

What charges?

At least on the first day they haven't done anything overtly illegal. They were just there, in public areas. They might have done something during the week they stayed there but I don't know exactly what and no one would tell.

They didn't block the runway, for example, as those British protesters. They didn't break into the control tower, I'm not even sure they went pass manned immigration checkpoints.

You give a new dimension to obtuse so far as the airport seizure is concerned.Just ask yourself the question whether the PAD leadership would be in deep deep trouble probably involving jail sentences over this stunt if in any other country.I've asked this several times, never got a coherent response.And you're still babbling on about the PAD mob not blocking the runways etc.It's almost comical if not deeply depressing.

- - - -

On the establishment you were always prattling on about the people that matter until a few months ago (perhaps it didn't quite accord with your view that there was no systematic plan to defang Thaksin).Anyway those are the people I mean.

[Plus]

I don't know what would have happened in any other country. People don't shutdown aiports there very often.

I suspect they would not have been allowed to disrupt the operations in the first place, and i have no idea about the subsequent charges.

I also have no idea how the authorities would react if the airports were truly lost? Would they start a war trying to dislodge thousands of people and turn it into a bloodbath? Would they try to negotiate a solution? Would they "sue" them out, like PPP tried?

I mean, what would you charge five thousand people who simply walk into a terminal with? It's not illegal, but trying to smoke them out is a major headache. Do you think authorities in Heathrow have a playbook for such case? What does it involve? Waiving a court order in front of their noses? Bringing barrels of sleeping gas? Washing them out with water cannons? Shooting everyone dead?

Any solution would bring more damage to the airport than a problem itself, imo.

>>>

I think I remember some news stories about airport shutdowns due to labour strikes but I have no idea how it actually played out on the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if the strikers went to the airports and "threatened and intimidated" the staff that turned out for work. I'm reasonably sure no one was sued or jailed for those strikes.

>>>

I'm sure there will be some sort of charges eventually, I just don't see anything dramatic yet, like terrorism or insurrection. The reds are not charged for blocking the parliament either, only for isolated incidents of throwing rocks at passing MPs' cars.

[Thai at Heart]

I don't know what would have happened in any other country. People don't shutdown aiports there very often.

I suspect they would not have been allowed to disrupt the operations in the first place, and i have no idea about the subsequent charges.

I also have no idea how the authorities would react if the airports were truly lost? Would they start a war trying to dislodge thousands of people and turn it into a bloodbath? Would they try to negotiate a solution? Would they "sue" them out, like PPP tried?

I mean, what would you charge five thousand people who simply walk into a terminal with? It's not illegal, but trying to smoke them out is a major headache. Do you think authorities in Heathrow have a playbook for such case? What does it involve? Waiving a court order in front of their noses? Bringing barrels of sleeping gas? Washing them out with water cannons? Shooting everyone dead?

Any solution would bring more damage to the airport than a problem itself, imo.

>>>

I think I remember some news stories about airport shutdowns due to labour strikes but I have no idea how it actually played out on the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if the strikers went to the airports and "threatened and intimidated" the staff that turned out for work. I'm reasonably sure no one was sued or jailed for those strikes.

>>>

I'm sure there will be some sort of charges eventually, I just don't see anything dramatic yet, like terrorism or insurrection. The reds are not charged for blocking the parliament either, only for isolated incidents of throwing rocks at passing MPs' cars.

At least a Heathrow it involves a tunnel and a reinforced gate on the main entry tunnels so at least the PAD wouldn't have been able to drive simply to the front door and sit down. At SVB closing the roads should be so simple since half of them are elevated. The first thing I ever noticed while driving there 2 years ago was that there was no way in place way to close the roads.

I wonder the Thai police have ever even bothered to produce a document like this??

http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/other_in...information.pdf

[samgrowth]

They didn't block the runway, for example, as those British protesters. They didn't break into the control tower, I'm not even sure they went pass manned immigration checkpoints.

In the case of Phuket Airport, PAD did block the runway.

[samgrowth]

trespassing, intimidation, criminal damage, assault, at least one murder or manslaughter, refusing officials access to investigate crime-scenes, slander

Just seen the list. Thanks.

Trespassing is hardly a terrorism charge. Were they in any areas of the airport where public is not supposed to be? Don't tell me "the lawns", or "Stuff only" doors to cleaner's closets.

Intimidation - I agree their presense was intimidating, but did they actually threaten airport authorities in any way? Prior to airport closure?

Criminal damage - like damage to what? Property? The airport was up and running in no time after they left. How much criminal damage was really there?

Assault - what assault specifically?

Murder - you can only link it to the leaders if they were aware of it.

Refusing official access to crime scenes - I'm not aware the police even tried to access crime scenes there.

Slander - how about someone sued you for calling them terrorists? Would it be fair?

Fine. If the YELLOW goes un-punnished, what is stopping the RED (or other protest group) of doing the same.

In many incidents, factory workers not satisfied with bonus block highways. What if they go and block the airport instead?

[Meerkat]

From what I remember the relevent bit of the criminal code includes stuff about intent which makes the case very interpretable and definitley not clear cut. I think there is also something about exceptions too. Lesser charges would be a lot easier to prove.

I agree that lesser charges would probably be the way to go. The exceptions in the code however only apply to demonstrations done in accordance with the Constitution, which is why the court's decision that the PAD rallies were not constitutional was so important. It's also amazing (read sad) that neither the Post nor the Nation deemed that decision important enough to report upon, instead choosing to highlight only the court's other conclusion from the same ruling, that whilst the police were right to try and break up the rally on October 7th, they went beyond the law in its execution [sic]. The Thai press did report it however.

Anyway whatever charges get brought against the yellow guys and I think there will be some will set the bar for the reds promised action against ASEAN which if carried out will reach a similar height although with foreign diplomats in the firing line the authoriites may not be quite so lenient. The Thai public also seemed embarrassed at the international repuitation damage done by the airport seizure and may expect a far stronger future action on anything similar so it may be a tad different.

Yup. One of the problems with the justice system here is that it is widely perceived that justice is selectively meted out - one law for the rich and so on. It is crucial that the yellows and reds are held up to the same standards within the law; otherwise not even the ridiculous contempt charges that can me thrown around by the courts will be enough to protect the judiciary IMO.

[samgrowth]

Yup. One of the problems with the justice system here is that it is widely perceived that justice is selectively meted out - one law for the rich and so on. It is crucial that the yellows and reds are held up to the same standards within the law; otherwise not even the ridiculous contempt charges that can me thrown around by the courts will be enough to protect the judiciary IMO.

However contempt charges is taken very seriously in Thailand. Once cannot even have doubt on court ruling in Thailand, not to mention challeng it, even though it looks obvious that the judges have be bribed, or the rulling is so <deleted> stupid.

[Wiresok]

The green protestors who occupied the runway at stanstead recently are arrested and charged awaiting trial.

The AOT obtained a court injunction that the PAD had to vacate the airport.

They didnt, they were then in contempt of court.

Jonahon head reported from inside the airport, the armed PAD paramilitaries were in the basement.

Regardless of the criminal pursuance of the PAD by Abisit, the AOT and anybody else who sufferred a loss due to the PAD illegal occupation , now need to sue the PAD for losses in the civil courts.

I see Abhisit the phoney's nephew is also a toff at Eton.

What a fantastic message that sends out...

Wonder if he will get a vote,...at least he will be able to learn all about the ignorant and uneducated rural thai poor.

[younghusband]

I see Abhisit the phoney's nephew is also a toff at Eton.

What a fantastic message that sends out...

Wonder if he will get a vote,...at least he will be able to learn all about the ignorant and uneducated rural thai poor.

As I have often mentioned it's almost impossible to underestimate the chippy class sensitivity of the English lower middle classes.As though being an Etonian was some sort of crime.

If I'm not mistaken Abhisit's nephew won a King's Scholarship a couple of years ago to Eton from his Bangkok school, a fantastic achievement since it is a highly demanding and rigorous exam.I would have thought all those who have Thailand's interests at heart should be very proud of him.

[samgrowth]

I see Abhisit the phoney's nephew is also a toff at Eton.

What a fantastic message that sends out...

Wonder if he will get a vote,...at least he will be able to learn all about the ignorant and uneducated rural thai poor.

As I have often mentioned it's almost impossible to underestimate the chippy class sensitivity of the English lower middle classes.As though being an Etonian was some sort of crime.

If I'm not mistaken Abhisit's nephew won a King's Scholarship a couple of years ago to Eton from his Bangkok school, a fantastic achievement since it is a highly demanding and rigorous exam.I would have thought all those who have Thailand's interests at heart should be very proud of him.

Ex Thaksin spokman / ex-Foreign Minister also won a King's Scholarship to study law in Oxford. Should we be proud of Noppadon Pattama too?

[younghusband]

I see Abhisit the phoney's nephew is also a toff at Eton.

What a fantastic message that sends out...

Wonder if he will get a vote,...at least he will be able to learn all about the ignorant and uneducated rural thai poor.

As I have often mentioned it's almost impossible to underestimate the chippy class sensitivity of the English lower middle classes.As though being an Etonian was some sort of crime.

If I'm not mistaken Abhisit's nephew won a King's Scholarship a couple of years ago to Eton from his Bangkok school, a fantastic achievement since it is a highly demanding and rigorous exam.I would have thought all those who have Thailand's interests at heart should be very proud of him.

Ex Thaksin spokman / ex-Foreign Minister also won a King's Scholarship to study law in Oxford. Should we be proud of Noppadon Pattama too?

You betray your ignorance.King's Scholars at Eton are named after the founder, Henry VI of England.The name has nothing to do with Thailand's system of King's Scholarships.

Edited January 7, 2009 by younghusband

[Thai at Heart]

I see Abhisit the phoney's nephew is also a toff at Eton.

What a fantastic message that sends out...

Wonder if he will get a vote,...at least he will be able to learn all about the ignorant and uneducated rural thai poor.

As I have often mentioned it's almost impossible to underestimate the chippy class sensitivity of the English lower middle classes.As though being an Etonian was some sort of crime.

If I'm not mistaken Abhisit's nephew won a King's Scholarship a couple of years ago to Eton from his Bangkok school, a fantastic achievement since it is a highly demanding and rigorous exam.I would have thought all those who have Thailand's interests at heart should be very proud of him.

Ex Thaksin spokman / ex-Foreign Minister also won a King's Scholarship to study law in Oxford. Should we be proud of Noppadon Pattama too?

You betray your ignorance.King's Scholars at Eton are named after the founder, Henry VI of England.The name has nothing to do with Thailand's system of King's Scholarships.

Indeed, two separate scholarships.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I think it's strange they're still so excited about what amount to very minor charges for Thaksin (compared to all the crap the junta throught up about him in their weird dreams), but nobody seems to care about the PAD criminals.

(There, I think criminals is a much better word than terrorists; they're common criminals and corrupted individuals, 'terrorist' I think would be too much credit frankly. And in order to be a terrorist I think you at least need to aspire to kill people as a main objective. While PAD thugs were armed and did shoot guns and hurt people, it wasn't their prime objective. So criminals and corrupted individuals it is.)

[hammered]

I think it's strange they're still so excited about what amount to very minor charges for Thaksin (compared to all the crap the junta throught up about him in their weird dreams), but nobody seems to care about the PAD criminals.

(There, I think criminals is a much better word than terrorists; they're common criminals and corrupted individuals, 'terrorist' I think would be too much credit frankly. And in order to be a terrorist I think you at least need to aspire to kill people as a main objective. While PAD thugs were armed and did shoot guns and hurt people, it wasn't their prime objective. So criminals and corrupted individuals it is.)

They should be tried and I agree as criminals as should any on the other side who commit crimes. I still hold out hope they will. In fact I think it will be a grave mistake for the government if they are not taken to court. Charges should also be laid that have a chance of succeeding which is why I agree with the criminal tag. Terrorist charges would likely fail at the first hurdle.

There have also been people murdered on both sides and the perpetrators of these outrages should be found, charged, not bailed and tried imho. It shouldnt be too difficult

[Siripon]

I think it's strange they're still so excited about what amount to very minor charges for Thaksin (compared to all the crap the junta throught up about him in their weird dreams), but nobody seems to care about the PAD criminals.

(There, I think criminals is a much better word than terrorists; they're common criminals and corrupted individuals, 'terrorist' I think would be too much credit frankly. And in order to be a terrorist I think you at least need to aspire to kill people as a main objective. While PAD thugs were armed and did shoot guns and hurt people, it wasn't their prime objective. So criminals and corrupted individuals it is.)

Have you read the charges he's facing, the details of the 6 cases waiting to proceed if the fugitive returns?

SJ can probably find them for you if you ask him nicely, very minor are not the right words.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Siripon