Patriot Act

[TongueThaied]

I am new to this great forum. I am 57, have been living in thailand two years and plan to stay. No unusual problems thus far. However, I recently tried to open an Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan VISA credit card account through Bank of America. My credit is golden -- no problem there. However, I live here; I maintain no physical address in the States. I have used my sister's address and a friend's from time to time, but nothing is consolodated. So here's the rub. It seems that the Patriot Act bars the opening of any kind of NEW financial account without PROVING a physical address in the U.S. This includes credit card accounts, bank accounts, brokerage accounts, etc. Accounts predating the Patriot Act are grandfathered. Somebody suggested creating a phony "physical address" using a mail forwarder like Earth Class, but I cannot imagine that could fool Bank of America's address verification process (using an address to a mail forwarder is barred under the Patriot Act -- it must be a real physical address). There must be a ton of you guys out there that have run up against this. Seems like a brick wall. Is there an answer, or are addressless ex-pat American Citizens simply screwed? Perhaps there is a thread on the issue already. Thank you in advance for any insight.

[pampal]

I believe that you cannot open new online accounts in US banks unless you are in the US. If you already have an account it may be allowed. They can tell where you are by your IP address. If you open an online account in the US, they will send the address confirmation and some other documents that you have to sign, to your stated address. You must fill in the forms and mail them back or go to a local branch of the bank that you opened an account with. Anyways that was my experience with B of A this past summer in Los Angeles.

[Jingthing]

I recommend setting up a faux US address and maintaining it. Use a relatives or friends address and buy a Vonage device with a US phone number. In other words, your best hope is lying. I did a poll here a while back and it turned out (as I suspected) the majority of US expats here maintain a fake US identity for the very reasons you brought up.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[H2oDunc]

Its all for your safety and the continued fight against terrorism. Or so that's what they will tell you !

Its got nothing to do with fighting terrorism and is just another weapon to control the general public and will predict it will only get much worse under Obama! Its getting the same in the UK as well.

[TongueThaied]

I recommend setting up a faux US address and maintaining it. Use a relatives or friends address and buy a Vonage device with a US phone number. In other words, your best hope is lying. I did a poll here a while back and it turned out (as I suspected) the majority of US expats here maintain a fake US identity for the very reasons you brought up.

I have been using the addresses of a sister and a good friend. But recently, I was consolidating most everything at the friend's when I hit this wall -- unable to "verify" the friend's address with utility bills, etc. (who even gets paper bills anymore?). What I would really like to do is "cut the cord" to friends and relatives (they could be run over by trucks tomorrow) and be independent again while living here. Probably not a likely scenario. I thought about using a forwarding service like Earth Class and calling that the "place I live," but I seriously doubt that their physical address will slip through the filters. What about "cutting the cord"? Is your advice simply, "Forgetaboutit; if you wanna live here, it ain't happenin'"?

[Jingthing]

What about "cutting the cord"? Is your advice simply, "Forgetaboutit; if you wanna live here, it ain't happenin'"?

I went too far advising you what to do. Only really saying what I am doing, that is working for now. I had the same problem opening a Citibank account after I moved abroad. They demanded a physical utility bill and would not accept a Vonage phone bill. I don't think there is one answer for all people. I have heard some people say that financial institutions accept mail forwarders addresses, perhaps some do if the accounts have previously been established, but I share your skepticism that that is a foolproof solution.

You will find people who tell you, you worry too much, this problem isn't real. We both know, this problem is real. Some expats are millionaires and have personal bankers (hopefully, his name isn't MADOFF) and a huge net worth. I am sure they can make arrangements. I feel each of us has to come up with a personal solution based on our needs and limitations. For example, as a retired expat who depends on money flows from the US I am in a totally different situation than a professional working expat here who finances are all located here.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[12DrinkMore]

Maybe you could visit the States for a short time, establish enough credentials to get a CC and then return here? Maybe be an expensive option, but possibly an option?

[yongli]

I have been able to open a brokerage account in the US, officially supplying an Asian address. That was in the beginning of last year. I had to prove the address though (I used bank statements. Utility bills were another option)

A possible option would be to open a bank account in Asia, Singapore or Hong Kong are respected international banking centers.

I haven't tried a credit card yet.

All the best,

Yongli

[sulieman]

if you still have an active driver license and address you can use we can set you up ( us citizen or green card holder ) with USA and offshore account with most major banks without travelling to the States or the UK

www.snsco.net and trust company www.snsco.ch

[PattayaParent]

Try opening A USD account in a UK offshore bank.

I have a VISA card for mine.

[TongueThaied]

Thanks to everybody for your suggestions. I already have credit cards. I was just trying to open the one in question to get the 20,000 airline mile promotional bonus. The card wasn't that important, but since I plan to live out my life here, I became alarmed when I discovered what a can of worms this seemed to be, but thought it can't be this way. However, I gather from all the responses and posts elsewhere on this board that it is exactly as it appears -- a can of worms.

[CaptHaddock]

For those of us who aren't going to move to Thailand for some years yet, the take-home message is to open several bank accounts before leaving, which I am doing now. I intend to give up my New York State driver's license to eliminate that possible basis for NYS to decide that I am liable for state income taxes.

So, what about credit cards? I plan on keeping my Amex and Mastercard and using usa2me.com for a US mailing address. What will happen when the only charges to those cards are in Thailand? Will the card issuers revoke the cards or put a freeze on them? If I were to inform the issuers that I am resident in Thailand, would they revoke them then?

I don't want to get additional cards, but I am wondering if it is prudent to do so against the possibility of having some of them revoked?

What are your experiences with Amex and the other issuers in this regard?

[OriginalPoster]

For those of us who aren't going to move to Thailand for some years yet, the take-home message is to open several bank accounts before leaving, which I am doing now. I intend to give up my New York State driver's license to eliminate that possible basis for NYS to decide that I am liable for state income taxes.

So, what about credit cards? I plan on keeping my Amex and Mastercard and using usa2me.com for a US mailing address. What will happen when the only charges to those cards are in Thailand? Will the card issuers revoke the cards or put a freeze on them? If I were to inform the issuers that I am resident in Thailand, would they revoke them then?

I don't want to get additional cards, but I am wondering if it is prudent to do so against the possibility of having some of them revoked?

What are your experiences with Amex and the other issuers in this regard?

The easy way to handle it is to open an account with http://www.usabox.com and use the address that they give you as your "home address" for all your financial accounts.

Edited January 10, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[OriginalPoster]

I have heard some people say that financial institutions accept mail forwarders addresses, perhaps some do if the accounts have previously been established, but I share your skepticism that that is a foolproof solution.

I don't know that it's a foolproof solution but I was able to open a US on-line banking account with HSBC Direct using the address of a mail forwarder (usabox.com). Maybe if they knew that the address wasn't a physical residential address they would have rejected my application, but I can only speculate about that.

Edited January 10, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[CaptHaddock]

The easy way to handle it is to open an account with http://www.usabox.com and use the address that they give you as your "home address" for all your financial accounts.

It's not as simple as that. I just opened a joint bank account. They accepted my driver's license as verification of address, but since my wife doesn't drive, they demanded a copy of a utility bill for her. Using a mail forwarder wouldn't be sufficient for opening a new account.

[mojaco]

So, what about credit cards? I plan on keeping my Amex and Mastercard and using usa2me.com for a US mailing address. What will happen when the only charges to those cards are in Thailand? Will the card issuers revoke the cards or put a freeze on them? If I were to inform the issuers that I am resident in Thailand, would they revoke them then?

I don't want to get additional cards, but I am wondering if it is prudent to do so against the possibility of having some of them revoked?

What are your experiences with Amex and the other issuers in this regard?

I have been using the same (USA based) AMEX and VISA (US Bank) credit cards in Thailand now for 15 years without problems. I buy many, many things on both credit cards here in Thailand and also online and have never had a problem. I did tell them in the beginning though that I would be in Thailand and purchasing things from here, which I suppose helped somewhat. I also had several years of use on both cards in the USA prior to coming to Thailand though and that might also be a factor. Don't know what would happen with a brand new card.

[elektrified]

I too, have been using my USA based Amex, Visa and MasterCard for over 6 years while living here and in Europe. I notify them periodically that I am still abroad. I maintain an address in the USA. Note that the phone number has to be for the physical address you use. It does not matter if it is in your name or not. The phone number has to be for that address as they will check that 100%. So just use a friend or relative's address and phone number. Simple as that.

They will not mail you the cards outside of the USA when they expire. Your friend or relative will have to forward them to you here (after they authorize the card from their phone number). I did hear of one friend who was able to get his Visa card sent to him here. I believe it was from Charles Schwab; I am not sure. But that is unusual. If your ATM/Master Card is about to expire, just call the USA bank and tell them your wallet was stolen or lost or that the card was eaten by an ATM. After you properly identify yourself to a supervisor, they will send it by FedEx, DHL, etc. free of charge. I have done this twice now including once here in Thailand. Authorization was done at any ATM.

Now, sometimes you can not make an on-line purchase with a USA based card from Thailand or elsewhere. Some IP addresses from some countries like Thailand, Malaysia, Romania, Russia, Czech Republic, Slovakia etc. etc. are blocked and the charge will be declined. For that reason, I mainatain Master Card and Maestro Cards from my bank in Europe.

[CaptHaddock]

Thanks for the helpful info on the credit cards. I will have to think it through. I could use a relative's address and phone number, but prefer not to. I will be bringing my US phone number with me via a voip service. So, I would like to use that number. Since I have had my cards for decades, it would be nice if that help at all.

[Naam]

Your friend or relative will have to forward them to you here (after they authorize the card from their phone number).

the other way round is safer. my friend sends the cards. only after i confirmed receipt he calls the issuer.

[tjo o tjim]

Mail forwarding services work; you are best off transferring your mailing address to one to establish credibility. Another approach is to use it as your tax return address. Best to use smaller services that wouldn't specifically be watched.

My wife was waiting for her green card extension so we made sure everything went through the mail forwarding place. The services are crap though; unreliable and expensive. It does help to establish a location as "home" though.

You just have to remember that the goal is to make the modern reality less confusing to people caught up in the past. Explaining things accurately just confuses thing.