Uk State Pensions For Expats

[4.real]

Some time back I read a thread regarding the uk state pension. I understand that anyone living in Thailand would not qualify for any yearly increases.

The case ,I believe ,was heard and lost in the european courts.

Is there any appeal ongoing and how can I get more information regarding this case?

Thanks in advance.4.Real

[terrier123]

Some time back I read a thread regarding the uk state pension. I understand that anyone living in Thailand would not qualify for any yearly increases.

The case ,I believe ,was heard and lost in the european courts.

Is there any appeal ongoing and how can I get more information regarding this case?

Thanks in advance.4.Real

Just search for the story on thaivisa. Previously the case was lost in the House of Lords and apparently the ruling will never be changed. When living abroad, your pension remains the same as the day you left the UK and NEVER increases.

[Mintman]

Well it was a Tory Goverment that introduced it And it looks like they might win the next election so nothing will change.

[Dave the Dude]

Just search for the story on thaivisa. Previously the case was lost in the House of Lords and apparently the ruling will never be changed. When living abroad, your pension remains the same as the day you left the UK and NEVER increases.

Hi

I think you are right, it is UNLIKELY to change with the amount of tax fraud in the UK and a decreasing workforce paying into 'the club'

I believe Civil Servants don't have their pensions frozen even when they are expats, as they are seen as have helped the community during their working career . A teacher appealed to be treated the same as them and won some years ago.

Dave(disgruntled future UK pensioner)

[Steve2UK]

When living abroad, your pension remains the same as the day you left the UK and NEVER increases.

I believe the above is incorrect - or at least incomplete and therefore misleading................

"your pension will be frozen at the level it's at when you're 65 if you're living in Thailand at the time, or at the time you move abroad if that's after you're 65"

( from Post #2 at: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Uk-Pension-N...pension+British )

OP and others might like to make a note of the following links to help follow progress (or non-progress): http://www.pension-parity-uk.com/

An (Australia-oriented) onward link from that one is also worth going to directly: http://www.britishpensions.org.au/

http://www.britishexpat.com/Pensions-Campa...Pens.271.0.html

Edited January 11, 2009 by Steve2UK

[Ricardo]

Just search for the story on thaivisa. Previously the case was lost in the House of Lords and apparently the ruling will never be changed. When living abroad, your pension remains the same as the day you left the UK and NEVER increases.

Hi

I think you are right, it is UNLIKELY to change with the amount of tax fraud in the UK and a decreasing workforce paying into 'the club'

I believe Civil Servants don't have their pensions frozen even when they are expats, as they are seen as have helped the community during their working career . A teacher appealed to be treated the same as them and won some years ago.

Dave(disgruntled future UK pensioner)

Whereas those of us who paid tax, or created businesses and new jobs by finding & satisfying previously-unmet needs or wants, have of course done nothing to improve or help the country through our efforts.

Such an incentive, don't you think, to risk your wealth & previous livelihood, by having a go & starting-up something new. Your reward is, to pay for the index-linked pensions, of former government-employees, wherever they may live.

On a point of accuracy, there are many countries abroad, where your pension does continue to increase as normal. But Thailand isn't one of them. So we're really being punished, for being so very unpatriotic, as to go and live in a country which isn't on their little list. So much for fairness or equal-treatment !

But at least they didn't build a wall, to keep us in, and prevent our leaving !

Ricardo (another miffed future UK pensioner)

[GuestHouse]

Please pause for a moment to consider why the issue of 'Civil Servant' pensions has come to be discussed in the press and by 'concerned politicians'.

It is not simply a case of people thinking, 'oh look at those fat cat Civil Servants' but a campaign by the UK Government to raise public opinion against Civil Servant Pensions with the express objective of giving the Government the excuse of 'Public Support' to break the employment contracts of Civil Servants as they relate to Pensions. It is that old reliable tool of British Politics 'Spite and Envy'.

The reason the UK has such generous Civil Servant Pensions goes back to the days of Samuel Pepys and the measures he put in place to combat corruption - Unlike a person working in the private sector, a Civil Servant caught taking back handers is subject to regulations that allow the removal of all his pension rights. This is a very effective means of keeping Civil Servants in line in the latter part of their career, it is only late career Civil Servants who are given control over the large sums of money and contracts - hence they follow the rules lest they loose their pensions.

Keep in mind too that the certainty of a good pension has also always been used as a tool of pay restraint in the Public Sector.

That aside, fair State Pensions have nothing to do with Civil Service Pensions - There is no need to meddle with the latter to fix the former.

Though as I argue, the Government would love you to get confused over this matter.

[PostmanPat]

Sorry. "On a point of accuracy...." is in fact a point of INaccuracy!! I achieve 65 in just under 5 years, came to Thailand four years ago and have checked this out thoroughly. The position is that from the point you notify the UK Pension authority that you are living abroad, whichever country it may be, your NIRP is, in effect, frozen. If you are under 65, you will continue to attract the increases awarded until your 65th Birthday, then the award will be frozen at that point and never increased. If you are over 65 when you notify that you have left the UK, your pension is frozen at that point.

It doesnt make any difference which Country you are living in, the same rules apply. Oh, and before anyone blames Labour, it was in fact Thatcher who introduced this invidious and unfair change!!....and just to set the record completely straight, payment or otherwise of NIRP abroad applies the same to all UK citizens, whether they are ex MPs, Civil Servants, or any other job. The question of Index Linking of Company Pension Schemes depends on your Company Pension Scheme, not the Government, as it happens, my Company Pension is index linked, but many of my UK friends do not have index linking.

[sumrit]

Some time back I read a thread regarding the uk state pension. I understand that anyone living in Thailand would not qualify for any yearly increases.The case ,I believe ,was heard and lost in the european courts.

Is there any appeal ongoing and how can I get more information regarding this case?

Thanks in advance.4.Real

True, it's frozen from the time you move abroad if you are already over 65 or at the current level when you reach 65 if you are already living abroad. I at any time you return to live in the UK you can apply to have your pension increased to the current level, so maybe any extended holiday back in the UK should initialy be 'a return to live there' then decide that you don't want to stay after all once the increase has been awarded.

[samtam]

What is the current GBP amount of the UK state pension?

[mrbojangles]

Sorry. "On a point of accuracy...." is in fact a point of INaccuracy!!

Sorry but i think you are inaccurate.

It doesnt make any difference which Country you are living in, the same rules apply.

From the pensions website:- http://www.thepensionservice.gov.uk/pdf/pm/pm2oct07.pdf

" How much will I get?

If you go to live abroad permanently when you are getting your State Pension, you will not get a yearly increase (‘uprating’) in your basic State Pension or additional State Pension, unless you live in:

• a country that belongs to the European Economic Area or Switzerland, or

• a country that has an agreement with the UK to allow these increases."

[chiang mai]

Sorry. "On a point of accuracy...." is in fact a point of INaccuracy!!

Sorry but i think you are inaccurate.

It doesnt make any difference which Country you are living in, the same rules apply.

From the pensions website:- http://www.thepensionservice.gov.uk/pdf/pm/pm2oct07.pdf

" How much will I get?

If you go to live abroad permanently when you are getting your State Pension, you will not get a yearly increase (‘uprating’) in your basic State Pension or additional State Pension, unless you live in:

• a country that belongs to the European Economic Area or Switzerland, or

• a country that has an agreement with the UK to allow these increases."

Humorous and entertaining to watch you both talk across the same subject but suspect you both should pay attention to the words, "permanently" and "a country that has an agreement with the UK to allow these increases". Enjoy!

[chiang mai]

What is the current GBP amount of the UK state pension?

If you have 30 years of paid up NI contributions it's slightly more than £90 per week, presumably it decreases proportionally for the number of years up to 30 that remain unpaid.

[mrbojangles]

Sorry. "On a point of accuracy...." is in fact a point of INaccuracy!!

Sorry but i think you are inaccurate.

It doesnt make any difference which Country you are living in, the same rules apply.

From the pensions website:- http://www.thepensionservice.gov.uk/pdf/pm/pm2oct07.pdf

" How much will I get?

If you go to live abroad permanently when you are getting your State Pension, you will not get a yearly increase (‘uprating’) in your basic State Pension or additional State Pension, unless you live in:

• a country that belongs to the European Economic Area or Switzerland, or

• a country that has an agreement with the UK to allow these increases."

Humorous and entertaining to watch you both talk across the same subject but suspect you both should pay attention to the words, "permanently" and "a country that has an agreement with the UK to allow these increases". Enjoy!

Don't understand your point chiang Mai.

Postman Pat was saying you can't get an increase in the pension no matter what country you go live in. My interpretation from the web site is you can, as long as you live in an EE area or a country which allows these increases. I.E. I believe you can get the same benefits in the Phillipines as the UK. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/lifeevent/benefits/r...03/sa42_oct.pdf

So stop being so smarmy with smartar5e responses and please enlighten us, if you know which correct. That's what this forum is for isn't it.

[davyboy]

Don't understand the point of this, the UK pensions web site is quite clear on this subject!

[12DrinkMore]

Really, the rules are so simple it is difficult to understand why there is any discussion at all.

If you retire to live in the EEC or Switzerland or a country with an agreement to allow the increases (includes Philippines, but NOT Thailand NOR Australia) then you will get a cost of living increase. All the information is available in the link above.

The UK pension service is very good at answering letters. Just ask them for you current entitlement and they will send you a very detailed breakdown of all your contributions and also indicate if you can increase your entitlement by making further voluntary contributions. Note that if you have been divorced and your spouse continued to work, you may gain extra credits from their contributions. This worked very well in my case and I gained an extra six or so years, which was worth over 2,500 Quid, didn't quite compensate for all the money I lost, but it was a pleasant and unexpected bonus.

The big problem I see is that will the UK taxpayers be able to afford to pay my pension?

Edited January 11, 2009 by 12DrinkMore

[chiang mai]

Really, the rules are so simple it is difficult to understand why there is any discussion at all.

Umm, agreed!

[davyboy]

Really, the rules are so simple it is difficult to understand why there is any discussion at all.

If you retire to live in the EEC or Switzerland or a country with an agreement to allow the increases (includes Philippines, but NOT Thailand NOR Australia) then you will get a cost of living increase. All the information is available in the link above.

The UK pension service is very good at answering letters. Just ask them for you current entitlement and they will send you a very detailed breakdown of all your contributions and also indicate if you can increase your entitlement by making further voluntary contributions. Note that if you have been divorced and your spouse continued to work, you may gain extra credits from their contributions. This worked very well in my case and I gained an extra six or so years, which was worth over 2,500 Quid, didn't quite compensate for all the money I lost, but it was a pleasant and unexpected bonus.

The big problem I see is that will the UK taxpayers be able to afford to pay my pension?

Yes ,I think that is many peopls worry!!

[chiang mai]

Really, the rules are so simple it is difficult to understand why there is any discussion at all.

If you retire to live in the EEC or Switzerland or a country with an agreement to allow the increases (includes Philippines, but NOT Thailand NOR Australia) then you will get a cost of living increase. All the information is available in the link above.

The UK pension service is very good at answering letters. Just ask them for you current entitlement and they will send you a very detailed breakdown of all your contributions and also indicate if you can increase your entitlement by making further voluntary contributions. Note that if you have been divorced and your spouse continued to work, you may gain extra credits from their contributions. This worked very well in my case and I gained an extra six or so years, which was worth over 2,500 Quid, didn't quite compensate for all the money I lost, but it was a pleasant and unexpected bonus.

The big problem I see is that will the UK taxpayers be able to afford to pay my pension?

Yes ,I think that is many peopls worry!!

Agreed also, but can you conceive a condition whereby the UK as a country becomes the equivalent of say, Zimbabwe? Personally I cannot even get close to that point and think that the angst generated by the current crisis has driven the fright of fear a tad too deeply into the rationale of many folks - relax a little.

[marshbags]

The following thread was opened by Operator on 2008-11-05 and contains lots of debate and useful information

" Uk Elderly Expats Lose Appeal Over Yearly Pensions Increase. "

It also contains the list of countries that qualify you for yearly increments at present ect. ect.

Please go to :- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Uk-Elderly-E...ar-t221272.html

marshbags

P.S.

I downloaded the following from an array of info. re how much is payable at the present time from the pension home page for starters for anyone who wants to access it.

Ref url http://www.thepensionservice.gov.uk/state-...-will-i-get.asp

How much will I get?

Only use these amounts as a guide. The rules for benefits mean that your individual circumstances may affect the amount you can get. This means you will not always be able to work out exactly how much you will get by using these amounts.

Basic State Pension (per week from 9 April 2008)

Based on your own or your late husband’s, wife’s or civil partner’s NI contributions £90.70

Based on your husband’s NI contributions £54.35

Non-contributory Over 80 pension £54.35

Age Addition £ 0.25

The amounts of all benefits are reviewed each year with most benefits uprated in April. However, your State Pension is not uprated if you live in certain countries abroad.

Additional State Pension

From 1978 to 2002 additional State Pension was paid from the State Earnings - Related Pension Scheme (SERPS) and was only available to employees.

From 6 April 2002, SERPS was reformed to provide a more generous additional State Pension for low and moderate earners, and to extend access to include certain carers and people with long-term illness or disability. This is called the State Second Pension.

Graduated Retirement Benefit

Based on your graduated NI contributions paid between April 1961 and April 1975. For every £7.50 (man) or £9 (woman) of graduated contributions paid you get 10.98 pence (in 2008/09).

Increased benefits for dependants

Dependent children

If you were in receipt of the increase for dependent children before 5 April 2003, you may continue to receive:

£9 for the oldest child who qualifies for Child Benefit

£11.35 for each other child who qualifies

No claim for this benefit can be made after 6 April 2003.

Dependent adults

You may get £54.35 (in 2008/09) for a husband, wife or a person looking after children, paid with your State Pension (based on your NI contributions).

Edited January 11, 2009 by marshbags

[mrbojangles]

Really, the rules are so simple it is difficult to understand why there is any discussion at all.

The UK pension service is very good at answering letters. Just ask them for you current entitlement and they will send you a very detailed breakdown of all your contributions and also indicate if you can increase your entitlement by making further voluntary contributions. Note that if you have been divorced and your spouse continued to work, you may gain extra credits from their contributions. This worked very well in my case and I gained an extra six or so years, which was worth over 2,500 Quid, didn't quite compensate for all the money I lost, but it was a pleasant and unexpected bonus.

The reason it's so simple for you, is the fact that you have been through the process already and received an unexpected bonus, many of us haven't. If it was that simple why did you have to write to them? My goodness, was it to ask a question? And why was the Bonus unexpected, if it is that simple, why didn't you already know that you should have been entitled to the bonus?

Really, the rules are so simple it is difficult to understand why there is any discussion at all.

Umm, agreed!

Ummm, same type of response again!! Really, some of you guys are such experts, you should set up an helpline. But i would hope that you would actually answer some questions

[davyboy]

You will not know what your pension will be when you retire, but a pension forecast will tell you what would be your entitlement if you were 65 today.

Apply for a pension forecast!!

[mrbojangles]

The following thread was opened by Operator on 2008-11-05 and contains lots of debate and useful information

Excellent informative post Marshbags. I have come to expect nothing less from you

[chiang mai]

[Tafia]

Just search for the story on thaivisa. Previously the case was lost in the House of Lords and apparently the ruling will never be changed. When living abroad, your pension remains the same as the day you left the UK and NEVER increases.

Hi

I think you are right, it is UNLIKELY to change with the amount of tax fraud in the UK and a decreasing workforce paying into 'the club'

I believe Civil Servants don't have their pensions frozen even when they are expats, as they are seen as have helped the community during their working career . A teacher appealed to be treated the same as them and won some years ago.

Dave(disgruntled future UK pensioner)

The Civil Service Pensions are Index Linked but this is a condition of service as it may be for any number of companies.

(It is a works Pension and not to be confused with the State Pension)

However Civil Servants who receive their State Pension at 65 receive that under the same conditions as everyone else and if resident in Thailand it will not be Index Linked.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Tafia

[12DrinkMore]

The reason it's so simple for you, is the fact that you have been through the process already and received an unexpected bonus, many of us haven't. If it was that simple why did you have to write to them? My goodness, was it to ask a question? And why was the Bonus unexpected, if it is that simple, why didn't you already know that you should have been entitled to the bonus?

Blimey, you have combined my post to make an IMO unwarranted attack.

Point 1.

The rules of who receives a cost of living increment are very very simple. That was the main post. I did not write to them to find that out.

Point 2.

Then I went on to provide a bit more information which may, or may not, help other Brits here in Thailand to find out what their pension requirements are. This is almost impossible to determine without writing to the UK Inland Revenue and finding out where you stand on their records.

and then I made

Point 3.

There are possibly other divorced Brits around who are unaware that the ex-wife's contributions can be taken into account. But unless you actually write to the Inland Revenue, with a copy of the divorce documents, there is no way you can find out if you are entitled to anything.

I think I made a reasonable contribution to this thread. But with all due respect, I don't think your post did much to further the general level of information within TV, did it?

[12DrinkMore]

Agreed also, but can you conceive a condition whereby the UK as a country becomes the equivalent of say, Zimbabwe? Personally I cannot even get close to that point and think that the angst generated by the current crisis has driven the fright of fear a tad too deeply into the rationale of many folks - relax a little.

Possibly not Zimbabwe, but I find the current economic data coming out of the UK on a daily basis increasingly scary. In fact, I find the whole global crisis very scary. My future lies in Asia, and, although the Western media, indeed more than a few here in TV, are forecasting difficult times and Baht crashes, IMO by far the worst to be hit will be the West.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/no...globalrecession

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oc...ditcrunch.china

As the UK national pension is basically a Ponzi scheme and the company pensions schemes have invested in collapsing stock and property markets, to be honest, I fail to see how any of the pensions will provide me with a decent income into the future. Where will the money come from? I haven't got a clue, do you?

[mrbojangles]

The reason it's so simple for you, is the fact that you have been through the process already and received an unexpected bonus, many of us haven't. If it was that simple why did you have to write to them? My goodness, was it to ask a question? And why was the Bonus unexpected, if it is that simple, why didn't you already know that you should have been entitled to the bonus?

Blimey, you have combined my post to make an IMO unwarranted attack.

Point 1.

The rules of who receives a cost of living increment are very very simple. That was the main post. I did not write to them to find that out.

Point 2.

Then I went on to provide a bit more information which may, or may not, help other Brits here in Thailand to find out what their pension requirements are. This is almost impossible to determine without writing to the UK Inland Revenue and finding out where you stand on their records.

and then I made

Point 3.

There are possibly other divorced Brits around who are unaware that the ex-wife's contributions can be taken into account. But unless you actually write to the Inland Revenue, with a copy of the divorce documents, there is no way you can find out if you are entitled to anything.

I think I made a reasonable contribution to this thread. But with all due respect, I don't think your post did much to further the general level of information within TV, did it?

Didn't think i attacked you. In fact, i thought the opposite. I was trying to respond to someone who i believe gave false and incorrect information and then you and chiang mai started being a tad arrogant because you oth know it all and some of us mere mortals don't.

However, the post above that you have given, is full of information that is both helpful and appreciated. For that i thank you.

Finally, in your earlier post you said "Really, the rules are so simple it is difficult to understand why there is any discussion at all." Well maybe you don't think it's worthy of discussion but others do, especially the OP who started the thread. Therefore, IMO that is also simple, if people don't think a topic is worthy of discussion, don't read it and don't participate in it.

[dudemeister]

Dependent adults

You may get £54.35 (in 2008/09) for a husband, wife or a person looking after children, paid with your State Pension (based on your NI contributions).

So, if you marry thai, and have child, can claim this extra £54.35 ? per month?

Another point, does a thai spouse get a percentage of pension if/when you die?

[chiang mai]

Agreed also, but can you conceive a condition whereby the UK as a country becomes the equivalent of say, Zimbabwe? Personally I cannot even get close to that point and think that the angst generated by the current crisis has driven the fright of fear a tad too deeply into the rationale of many folks - relax a little.

Possibly not Zimbabwe, but I find the current economic data coming out of the UK on a daily basis increasingly scary. In fact, I find the whole global crisis very scary. My future lies in Asia, and, although the Western media, indeed more than a few here in TV, are forecasting difficult times and Baht crashes, IMO by far the worst to be hit will be the West.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/no...globalrecession

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oc...ditcrunch.china

As the UK national pension is basically a Ponzi scheme and the company pensions schemes have invested in collapsing stock and property markets, to be honest, I fail to see how any of the pensions will provide me with a decent income into the future. Where will the money come from? I haven't got a clue, do you?

Your point is well made but frankly, I think my earlier advice still stands, everyone should just try to relax a little bit more. I don't know how many years away you are personally from the official retirement age of 65 but I reach that point in time in x years, two months and eighteen days, not that I'm counting or that it really matters from a pension point of view. I take the view that the State Pension, like many UK banks and other financial institutions are things that are too big to fail, the ramifications for the alternatives in this day and age are too dire to even consider - one has to go to the levels of Mad Max movies to imagine those things. Governments around the world will adopt quantitative easing or any other means necessary to avoid the civil unrest and massive upheaval that accompany the alternatives. The outcome of adopting those alternatives may not be pleasant for us or our offspring and a part of the long term solution might well involve, as history has taught us to date, a major armed conflict or two! Regardless, normal service will be resumed at some point.

The current economic picture is dominated by daily tranches of bad news that feed the circulation figures of the international press and represent a significant proportion of the reasons why so many people are glued to places like Thai Visa, trying to find answers or clues - give me the BOT or BOE reports everyone asks, as though you and I might spot something that others have missed, pff!

Relax I say, if those stability blocks of our perceived future are not there in five or ten years, chances are that we won't be either, I reckon however that they will be. As for where the money will come from to finance those things, do we really care at this stage in the game?