Home And Land Ownership Through A Company

[manarak]

Hello all

In this thread I would like people who had problems to setup a company for home and land ownership, or who tried to hold land through a company, to write their story and explain what went wrong.

Note: this thread is only for problems directly related to the company, like:

- the land office refusing to register the land because of doubts the new owner is Thai

- after the land was registered to the company, someone raised that issue to get a "tip"

- the land was lost because of a court decision (what was the exact decision? how much time for selling and who got the money?)

Thank you.

[Naam]

don't hold your breath for getting any answers relating to your question. a couple of years ago i (actually my lawyers) have scoured all kind of sources and could not detect a single case.

nevertheless, since 2½ years numerous warnings were posted in this forum that "any time from now" the big crackdown will start, criminals who formed a company and brought millions into the country to build homes, buy cars, planning to spend more millions for living expenses in future will be arrested, sentenced to many years of hard labour and after serving their sentence deported to an isolated island. the illegally acquired land, their homes and all their belongings will be auctioned off, the proceeds will be given to the poor and their wives and daughters sold as slaves to wealthy a-Y-rabs.

[manarak]

that's the reason I ask.

deported to an isolated island (...) their wives and daughters sold as slaves

that's not so bad a perspective... especially the last part. are there bargirls on the island?

[samuibeachcomber]

don't hold your breath for getting any answers relating to your question. a couple of years ago i (actually my lawyers) have scoured all kind of sources and could not detect a single case.

nevertheless, since 2½ years numerous warnings were posted in this forum that "any time from now" the big crackdown will start, criminals who formed a company and brought millions into the country to build homes, buy cars, planning to spend more millions for living expenses in future will be arrested, sentenced to many years of hard labour and after serving their sentence deported to an isolated island. the illegally acquired land, their homes and all their belongings will be auctioned off, the proceeds will be given to the poor and their wives and daughters sold as slaves to wealthy a-Y-rabs.

sometimes i think you spend too much time sitting in bars in walking street dreaming up your replies.........but they are funny.

[norrona]

don't hold your breath for getting any answers relating to your question. a couple of years ago i (actually my lawyers) have scoured all kind of sources and could not detect a single case.

nevertheless, since 2½ years numerous warnings were posted in this forum that "any time from now" the big crackdown will start, criminals who formed a company and brought millions into the country to build homes, buy cars, planning to spend more millions for living expenses in future will be arrested, sentenced to many years of hard labour and after serving their sentence deported to an isolated island. the illegally acquired land, their homes and all their belongings will be auctioned off, the proceeds will be given to the poor and their wives and daughters sold as slaves to wealthy a-Y-rabs.

most sense i've read in a long time

[Khun Jean]

Sure do something illegal (nominees) and hope for the best. With other options available why even bother.

[Pdaz]

Had mine 10 years already.. Still waiting for the dreaded knock on the door Wouldn't care anyhow.. House doesn't owe me anything. If I had been paying rent for the same place at market value it would have been paid off 3 yrs ago.. So basically apart from the inconvienience it wouldn't be a problem.. That and the fact that if you are discovered to be using a nominee company you are given time to sell or transfer the property... Nothing to worry about.. I sleep much better than the guys who bought into a high end condo that is only 50% full and nobody is interested in paying maintenance. In ten years their condo will look like an unpainted slub.. wonder how much it will be worth.. ?

[manarak]

With other options available why even bother.

@khun jean

Why don't you begin another thread about the other available options? I'm very interested!

But please consider the specific starting and ending conditions:

Starting conditions: you've got approx. 10m Baht today and want to live in a house with garden of that value today.

Ending conditions: in x years (10, 20 or 30) you should still have the property or have the equivalenet in baht to buy another property of the same standard (we suppose maintenance costs are paid).

Edited January 16, 2009 by manarak

[thaiwanderer]

Had mine 10 years already.. Still waiting for the dreaded knock on the door Wouldn't care anyhow.. House doesn't owe me anything. If I had been paying rent for the same place at market value it would have been paid off 3 yrs ago.. So basically apart from the inconvienience it wouldn't be a problem.. That and the fact that if you are discovered to be using a nominee company you are given time to sell or transfer the property... Nothing to worry about.. I sleep much better than the guys who bought into a high end condo that is only 50% full and nobody is interested in paying maintenance. In ten years their condo will look like an unpainted slub.. wonder how much it will be worth.. ?

knock may never come but it is an imprisonable offence for you and your nominees

[Khun Jean]

With other options available why even bother.

@khun jean

Why don't you begin another thread about the other available options? I'm very interested!

But please consider the specific starting and ending conditions:

Starting conditions: you've got approx. 10m Baht today and want to live in a house with garden of that value today.

Ending conditions: in x years (10, 20 or 30) you should still have the property or have the equivalenet in baht to buy another property of the same standard (we suppose maintenance costs are paid).

I could start a thread but i don't see the point.

First, important information about ownership will NEVER be pinned, and as such are bound to disappear on page 500.

Second, having the same topics over and over again will surely get a higher hit rate with google but is not really helpful for people because most think old topics are obsolete.

Third, everything that has to be said on ownership options has been said and is often ignored because people really, really like to buy a house and land.

fourth, when people are desperate to stay in Thailand they ignore advise even if it saves their bums, because they really, really like to buy a house and land.

Fifth, people will always try to circumvent the VERY clear laws because they really, really like to buy a house and land.

Sixth, people have more faith in lawyers and real estate agents because they really,really like to buy a house and land.

I think you see the pattern.

[Arkady]

Thai companies should have operations, not just renting the house to the director which is considered other income, not operations. They should file audited accounts without qualifications which are usually slyly not translated by auditor, if the owner is a foreigner, and file for tax. Companies not doing this can be struck off and are a red flag for investigation by various authorities whether they own land or not. That is number one point.

Number two is that most of the problems people have had so far involve been swindled out of propery by their lawyers, girlfriends or other Thai nominees which is extremely common. In future no one can say what will happen but best to keep the company in good shape and be very wary of nominees. I wouldn't advise anyone to use a company to buy land. Running a company is really a lot of hassle and not worth it, unless you need it for business. Better to buy a condo and own it yourself or rent a house. 30 year leases OK for something that is not a big purchase for you.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Arkady

[mommysboy]

I confirm it is a watertight method and this is based on my personal experience in court (refer to my own posting).

It's probably right to be suspicious as really it is an instrument that circumvents the main rule of law, but to this day courts recognise the validity of companies.

But it's an expensive method, both to set up and dissolve, and perform any changes in between.

I'm not sure there is an alternative if you want your name (nearly) on the deeds. But if you just want to protect yourself then a protected renewable lease is surely better.

There's no substitute for a good relationship and a good lawyer IMHO.

As a general rule, money once spent in Thailand is often never redeemed .

[Khun Jean]

To this day the courts and law do not allow for nominees. Not now, not before and not in the future.

So tell me, how do you find Thai people who are willing to invest their own money into your company while it is only a vehicle to own land and probably never will make a profit.

[UncleFrank]

With the Yellow Shirts in charge, I would be a bit more nervous about the Company route for buying land in Thailand. They are anti foreigner. Evict foreigners and confiscate the property is a possibility.

Nothing they do would surprise me.

A Thai Lawyer will help you set up a Company, get the nominees, do the yearly paperwork but will flee the scene if the shi*t hits the fan.

TIT. You're taking an unnecessary chance buying property this way, I submit.

[Naam]

don't hold your breath for getting any answers relating to your question. a couple of years ago i (actually my lawyers) have scoured all kind of sources and could not detect a single case.

nevertheless, since 2½ years numerous warnings were posted in this forum that "any time from now" the big crackdown will start, criminals who formed a company and brought millions into the country to build homes, buy cars, planning to spend more millions for living expenses in future will be arrested, sentenced to many years of hard labour and after serving their sentence deported to an isolated island. the illegally acquired land, their homes and all their belongings will be auctioned off, the proceeds will be given to the poor and their wives and daughters sold as slaves to wealthy a-Y-rabs.

sometimes i think you spend too much time sitting in bars in walking street dreaming up your replies.........but they are funny.

for the record. the last time i sat at a bar in Pattaya was approximately five years ago when i was a tourist. since i permanently live here (2004) i have not even once frequented a bar.

[Naam]

I confirm it is a watertight method and this is based on my personal experience in court (refer to my own posting).

It's probably right to be suspicious as really it is an instrument that circumvents the main rule of law, but to this day courts recognise the validity of companies.

But it's an expensive method, both to set up and dissolve, and perform any changes in between.

I'm not sure there is an alternative if you want your name (nearly) on the deeds. But if you just want to protect yourself then a protected renewable lease is surely better.

There's no substitute for a good relationship and a good lawyer IMHO.

As a general rule, money once spent in Thailand is often never redeemed .

especially the money spent on beer and pussy

[Naam]

Had mine 10 years already.. Still waiting for the dreaded knock on the door Wouldn't care anyhow.. House doesn't owe me anything. If I had been paying rent for the same place at market value it would have been paid off 3 yrs ago.. So basically apart from the inconvienience it wouldn't be a problem.. That and the fact that if you are discovered to be using a nominee company you are given time to sell or transfer the property... Nothing to worry about.. I sleep much better than the guys who bought into a high end condo that is only 50% full and nobody is interested in paying maintenance. In ten years their condo will look like an unpainted slub.. wonder how much it will be worth.. ?

knock may never come but it is an imprisonable offence for you and your nominees

the torture, you forgot to mention the torture that the courts will dole out!

[eljeque]

I bought my first house here in 1988.

I have friends who predate me here by more than 10 years.

None of them has ever heard of the government doing anything about companies owning property. NEVER, but they have heard talk about it for 30 years. Talk about it for 30 years, and I will more than likely hear talk about it for another 30 years.

But, this is Thailand, and there is a lot more talk and very little action.

And, I have no idea why you need to buy a house.

Example

You put down your 10M

1. I move in next door with my screaming kids and three dogs.

2. A couple of loud drunks more in next door with their stereos blasting day and night

3. I like to park my old garbage cars on the street in front of my house, your house, and anywhere else I please.

4. I also hang my laundry in the street ...

5. I paint my front wall purple and gray with blue steel spikes.

6. My dog shits in the yard and I do not clean it up as I am away for a week. You can smell it.

You try to sell your house, only to learn that there is a very limited second hand RE market in Pattaya. "Limited" on the buying side, not the selling side!

For a foreigner, buying a house here is like buying a vehicle in the West. The moment you take possession, the price goes down 20%.

Why? Because the company that sold it to YOU, spent 100,000s of baht marketing it and the moo ban to people all over Pattaya and finally found you. You do not have the resources to spend that kind of money to sell the house, or if you do, then that will bring the price down a great deal.

As you are not able to find another you, you will have to find the person with similar tastes, but with far lower resources to spend in locating him, you will be well down on the price curve in locating your buyer.

Rent! Next year, you will be happy that you did. And, at that point in time, you will be able to find property not only cheaper than now, but you will know a great deal more about the city, locating property, and the area in which you would like to live.

Best of luck

[dsfbrit]

My major dislike of the company route for ownership was the nominess being my wife and the Thais working at the Lawyers Office. The Thais at the lawyers office were nominess for dozens (hundreds???) of similar companies in the Pattaya area.

I looked into the Usufruct/30 year lease thing and was working with Sunbelt to set up the Usufruct.

The process of doing this involved me having to remove all the shareholders and putting new shareholders in place so the Usufruct could be set up. Something to do with the Usufruct not being allowed in the name of a current shareholder - ie my wife.

To cut a long story short, I realsied I could remove the Thai nominees in the office as now only 3 people are needed for the company setup.

Sorted - so now the company is just me, my wife and her mother.

So the problem as far as I am concerned is solved or at least manageable. It was always unsettling to me that I would need to try to argue the case for nominees that were nominees in many other companies!

I know this will be 'knocked down' as still illegal etc... still it is alot better than it was - and the Usufruct thing just did not feel right. I dont like the idea I would be living here the rest of my life without the authority to sell if I wanted to.

[angiud]

With the Yellow Shirts in charge, I would be a bit more nervous about the Company route for buying land in Thailand. They are anti foreigner. Evict foreigners and confiscate the property is a possibility.

They will start a falang pogrom soon

:D

[mommysboy]

I bought my first house here in 1988.

I have friends who predate me here by more than 10 years.

None of them has ever heard of the government doing anything about companies owning property. NEVER, but they have heard talk about it for 30 years. Talk about it for 30 years, and I will more than likely hear talk about it for another 30 years.

But, this is Thailand, and there is a lot more talk and very little action.

And, I have no idea why you need to buy a house.

Example

You put down your 10M

1. I move in next door with my screaming kids and three dogs.

2. A couple of loud drunks more in next door with their stereos blasting day and night

3. I like to park my old garbage cars on the street in front of my house, your house, and anywhere else I please.

4. I also hang my laundry in the street ...

5. I paint my front wall purple and gray with blue steel spikes.

6. My dog shits in the yard and I do not clean it up as I am away for a week. You can smell it.

You try to sell your house, only to learn that there is a very limited second hand RE market in Pattaya. "Limited" on the buying side, not the selling side!

For a foreigner, buying a house here is like buying a vehicle in the West. The moment you take possession, the price goes down 20%.

Why? Because the company that sold it to YOU, spent 100,000s of baht marketing it and the moo ban to people all over Pattaya and finally found you. You do not have the resources to spend that kind of money to sell the house, or if you do, then that will bring the price down a great deal.

As you are not able to find another you, you will have to find the person with similar tastes, but with far lower resources to spend in locating him, you will be well down on the price curve in locating your buyer.

Rent! Next year, you will be happy that you did. And, at that point in time, you will be able to find property not only cheaper than now, but you will know a great deal more about the city, locating property, and the area in which you would like to live.

Best of luck

A good posting.

There have been rumblings though and a scare when reforms were brought in, so I don't think this is just doom merchants talking hot air.

The company way does attempt to circumvent law and thus I always felt vulnerable to attack.

[LennyW]

Yep, 20 replies, 600 views, and still no one posts experiences of properties being taken away from them "Via the company route", plenty of hearsay, if's, but's and maybe's!!

Same result when the topic comes up nearly every week!!

[FairwayJack]

Renting is our best option.....you never know what they will built next door. In my case, I rented a beautiful house on a golf course. The course shortly built a huge maintenance shop 3 yds away. Banging, painting, saws, radios, ....what would I had done if I owned the place ?? Gone mad I suppose.

[manarak]

Yeah, buying involves some risks. As for the neighbors, with a garden of 4000 square meters, one doesn't need to worry too much.

Of course renting first and searching while there makes a lot more sense.

I guess in about 12 to 24 months in time from now will be a good moment to search for properties and think about buying.

I have, btw, found the "silver bullet":

Just find a guy from your own country who also has a thai passport and who at the same time has unpledged property in your home country => make a contract (I found the guy).

Result: fully legal, because privately held by a Thai, with full collateral guaranteed by the private law of your home country.

Edited January 26, 2009 by manarak

[chiangmaibruce]

Yep, 20 replies, 600 views, and still no one posts experiences of properties being taken away from them "Via the company route", plenty of hearsay, if's, but's and maybe's!!

Same result when the topic comes up nearly every week!!

Lenny, you could well be right ... but ... how many times do you hear of people being caught doing anything here (and prosecuted). Not often. Hence I have to wonder whether some people are caught going the company ownership route, but buy their way out of the situation. Not surprisingly they would not want to draw attention to themselves by posting about what happened on an open forum (even with a nickname).... anyway just a thought

[chiangmaibruce]

I have, btw, found the "silver bullet":

Just find a guy from your own country who also has a thai passport and who at the same time has unpledged property in your home country => make a contract (I found the guy).

Result: fully legal, because privately held by a Thai, with full collateral guaranteed by the private law of your home country.

Sorry, this is off topic, but always interested to hear of a new approach. Manarak, was that difficult to put into legalese? I assume the Thai guy owns property of equal or greater value to the place you bought in LOS, and you took out a first mortgage against his place. But there are a range of issues that could crop up that would have to be written into the contract, for eg. what happens if he runs into financial difficulty and has to sell his place in farangland?

[mommysboy]

Yep, 20 replies, 600 views, and still no one posts experiences of properties being taken away from them "Via the company route", plenty of hearsay, if's, but's and maybe's!!

Same result when the topic comes up nearly every week!!

Lenny, you could well be right ... but ... how many times do you hear of people being caught doing anything here (and prosecuted). Not often. Hence I have to wonder whether some people are caught going the company ownership route, but buy their way out of the situation. Not surprisingly they would not want to draw attention to themselves by posting about what happened on an open forum (even with a nickname).... anyway just a thought

Yes too sweeping Lenny!! although I agree with you and Naam, and speak from personal very recent court experience. But that is history to the present day

But will it always be this way?

I say again, it circumvents the spirit of the law and as such is exposed to risk. Does anyone disagree?

I can't therefore recommend it.

[manarak]

Yes too sweeping Lenny!! although I agree with you and Naam, and speak from personal very recent court experience. But that is history to the present day

But will it always be this way?

I say again, it circumvents the spirit of the law and as such is exposed to risk. Does anyone disagree?

I can't therefore recommend it.

I think nobody disagrees, but the thread is about what actually happened, not about risks and recommendations.

Everyone will have to draw his own conclusions from the facts.

And for the moment the facts are the following:

Yep, 20 replies, 600 views, and still no one posts experiences of properties being taken away from them "Via the company route", plenty of hearsay, if's, but's and maybe's!!

Same result when the topic comes up nearly every week!!

[manarak]

Sorry, this is off topic, but always interested to hear of a new approach. Manarak, was that difficult to put into legalese? I assume the Thai guy owns property of equal or greater value to the place you bought in LOS, and you took out a first mortgage against his place. But there are a range of issues that could crop up that would have to be written into the contract, for eg. what happens if he runs into financial difficulty and has to sell his place in farangland?

Well, yes, setting up the contract will cause some legal costs. But in a country with a strong contract law, almost everything is possible to do.

The contract is complicated, because it is no standard situation and because it has to cover all possible cases: he dies, I die, my wife dies, divorce, my children die, his heirs die, etc.

One of the "problem situations" is, as you wrote, the case where he needs money - this is in theory the most problematic situation.

He will have to immobilize capital for that deal - but real estate will be one of the best investments in the next 12 to 24 months.

The guy I will do the business with is well-off and has several properties, so I don't think he is likely to be in need soon, especially as he is now over the age of risky business.

If the shit really hits the fan, he is not able to sell his property without first lifting the pledge, and the property in Thailand is usufructed.

And before this happens, I will maybe have acquired the Thai nationality myself? :-) LOL

But this is definitely not a solution for everyone, since there are not a lot of these thai farangs around, who in addition are rich enough with property in their home country.

Edited January 27, 2009 by manarak

[Khun Jean]

Yes too sweeping Lenny!! although I agree with you and Naam, and speak from personal very recent court experience. But that is history to the present day

But will it always be this way?

I say again, it circumvents the spirit of the law and as such is exposed to risk. Does anyone disagree?

I can't therefore recommend it.

I think nobody disagrees, but the thread is about what actually happened, not about risks and recommendations.

Everyone will have to draw his own conclusions from the facts.

And for the moment the facts are the following:

Yep, 20 replies, 600 views, and still no one posts experiences of properties being taken away from them "Via the company route", plenty of hearsay, if's, but's and maybe's!!

Same result when the topic comes up nearly every week!!

Twisting laws, truths etc to fit your requirements. Sounds like a lawyer or real estate agent in Thailand.

The biggest nonsense i have ever seen written down.

Because nobody on Thai Visa (what percentage does own via a company, 1%, 5%?) has been caught, therefore it is save to own via a company.