From China To Thailand

[Pierrot]

Recently I went with a couple of Cambodian friends back to China, Guangdong province, to visit the village of their ancestors. They are now in their 60s and it was their father who was born there. The village is still very poor and it was actually poverty that pushes their father to look for better fortune abroad.

I believe it's a common story among Thai Chinese as well and I tried to push my Thai relatives to start the same journey. But they are very reluctant to acknowledge their Chinese origin, actually something very common among Thais.

Does anybody have experience of tracing the origin of their family to the original Chinese village? What was the reason that made them leave? Do they keep some relation with their family in China?

I'm not doing any research, or writing any book. I'm just curious.

[wamberal]

In my experience, Thai people of Chinese ancestory are often reluctant to celebrate their ethnicity.

I think this stems from the fear of losing citizenship, which was probably a real one until not all that many years ago.

[Pierrot]

In my experience, Thai people of Chinese ancestory are often reluctant to celebrate their ethnicity.

I think this stems from the fear of losing citizenship, which was probably a real one until not all that many years ago.

Actually I believe there are many reasons why some Thai don't want to acknowledge their Chinese origin, but I prefer to keep this discussion for an other thread. I’m really curious to know if some people have trace back the origin of their family and the reason why they decided to move abroad.

[MiG16]

I dont think you have enough Thais (let alone whether they are Chinese Thais) on this forum to get the insight you are looking for.

but well maybe some of the husbands can speak on behalf of the thai partners?

[Pierrot]

I dont think you have enough Thais (let alone whether they are Chinese Thais) on this forum to get the insight you are looking for.

but well maybe some of the husbands can speak on behalf of the thai partners?

That's the idea. Most of the Thai (Chinese) I know are not really willing to dig much in their past. But maybe foreigners will have a more curious mind.

[Owain]

What was the reason that made them leave?

Some probably left the country due to the wars and when Mao came to power. Most people were starving in China at the time.

[Pierrot]

Right. A majority of them joined the Thai society at the very bottom, maybe one of the reasons why they don’t want to acknowledge their origin

[12DrinkMore]

Right. A majority of them joined the Thai society at the very bottom, maybe one of the reasons why they don’t want to acknowledge their origin

They now own some 80% of Thai industry. Did OK I guess.

I don't see them making a big secret of their origin. You can always tell a Chinese business as they have Chinese signs around, often the prices are marked up in Chinese (particularly the hardware/building/plumbing stores).

[MSingh]

In my experience, Thai people of Chinese ancestory are often reluctant to celebrate their ethnicity.

I think this stems from the fear of losing citizenship, which was probably a real one until not all that many years ago.

Really ??

They're quick enough to celebrate the Chinese New Yar though & have Holidays to celebrate it though...

[Pierrot]

Right. A majority of them joined the Thai society at the very bottom, maybe one of the reasons why they don't want to acknowledge their origin

They now own some 80% of Thai industry. Did OK I guess.

I don't see them making a big secret of their origin. You can always tell a Chinese business as they have Chinese signs around, often the prices are marked up in Chinese (particularly the hardware/building/plumbing stores).

Actually the question is not where they are now but where they come from ...

Then regarding how they handle their origin, for a few who are still managing the original hardware store, there are hundreds who have already "melted" in the Thai melting pot.

[henryalleman]

Recently I went with a couple of Cambodian friends back to China, Guangdong province, to visit the village of their ancestors. They are now in their 60s and it was their father who was born there. The village is still very poor and it was actually poverty that pushes their father to look for better fortune abroad.

I believe it's a common story among Thai Chinese as well and I tried to push my Thai relatives to start the same journey. But they are very reluctant to acknowledge their Chinese origin, actually something very common among Thais.

Does anybody have experience of tracing the origin of their family to the original Chinese village? What was the reason that made them leave? Do they keep some relation with their family in China?

I'm not doing any research, or writing any book. I'm just curious.

Pierrot,

I have some insight for you, because I married already 33 years with an Sino/Thai Tea-Jiw lady, but my answer is rather extensive that 's why i will answer you in the in the weekend.

[henryalleman]

As promised I give some history about Chinese present in Thailand.

what many expat don't seems to know is that Chinese in Thailand are not a homogeneous group. There are 5 ethnic groups of them. I list them up by their number of presence

1-Taechiew, Far out the biggest group

2-Kawan-Toung

3-Hai-Lam

4-Kea

5- Hong-Kean or Hokieng most of them in the 4 southern provinces. BTW the Hokieng is the official language in Singapore.

All 5 of them speak their own language and have their traditions and culture;

All of this groups are living in Thailand since the 17th century, there was a massive immigration early 19th century, because at that moment there was drought and hunger in China and by Chinese culture only the first son could inherent that's why the other sons must leave the land or the business and look there fortune elsewhere. Also in the 19th century Chinese where invited in Thailand to progress the country, (similar as the Russian Tsar's invite Dutch, Flemings and Germans to develop the Russian industry, shipyards and farming. Even in the 1930 Stalin invite Americans to develop an Russian car industry.)

After the Communist take over Field marshal Sarit gave permission to some isolated Kwomintang troups who could not escape to Formosa the permission to resettle in Thailand. because in case of war with China they could be the first line of defence. They still are in the north near by Chuan Rai in the kwomintang vilage of Mae Salong, most of them have Tea plantations. There are also still some Kwomingtan villages in the Mae Hong Son valley. After WW2 there was a second immigration to Thailand, but the majority was here already;

Early 20th century the Chinese where forced to change their Chinese name into a Thai name. There was also a moment of fierce Thai Nationalism where there where plans to extradite all Chinese back to China, but this plans where never implemented because the Chinese played an too great role in the Thai economy and the highest family in the country have some Chinese blood line.

Like all Chinese in the world they are a rather close community, mixing other races are more an exception than normal. So the statement of one member that Chinese mixed themselves in the Thai melting pot is not true.

In Thailand of today most Chinese are belonging to the middle class and business circles; Most of hotels in Thailand are owned by Chinese you can see this very good if you look to the decorations. Also most big factories and companies have Chinese owners. In fact Chinese in Thailand like most SE countries are the backbone of the economy.

Chinese know and realize very well that the Thai look down on them, and they on their part think that the Thai are not diligent enough and too much "jay yen yen. If you like to see a Thai town with a typical Chinese atmosphere you should visit Nakhon sawan where they are the majority of the population more than 65%.

Chinese-Thai social relationships is another issue , I will not go into it because that was not the question of your OP.

So in short Chinese are already many centuries in Thailand and they are still a closed community who help each and protect each other. There is an old Chinese quote

"where ever an Chinese go in the world he will never be hungry because there is always some other Chinese with whom he have some family relationship"

One reason why the Chinese are so successful is that for them there are only 2 important things in life besides family, their wallet and their stomach.

[lazygourmet]

Thank you Henry for this nice and interesting piece of work.

[Tilokarat]

'Pillow and mat capitalism', they call it.

It symbolises the fact the Chinese came to Siam with a pillow and a mat, and that was it. Many of them worked as labourers in Ayutthaya/Thonburi/Bangkok/Chonburi as coolies unloading and loading ships. Others worked for the bureaucracy as tax farmers in Ayutthaya and Bangkok. King Taksin's father is a good example of one of these who rose to power.

Owing to the Siamese social system of the time (sakdina [sp]) native Thais could not move freely around the country to work. They were tied to patrons and often had tattoos indicating their leader (patron) or the village/town they were attached to.

When the government decided to modernise they brought in Chinese to work in the cities and as government agents. It worked much like the British in Malaya and Burma wherein outsiders were brought in to man the bureaucracy.

Some historians argue that the founder of Ayutthaya, U Thong, was Chinese.

Look at the faces of the elites in Bangkok, and many of the recent prime ministers and the leadership of PAD. Most of these people are Sino-Thais.

A good discussion of this is in a chapter in a book written by Pasuk Phongpaichit and her husband, Chris Baker. The chapter is entitled, 'Pillow and Mat Capitalism'.

William Skinner wrote books about the Chinese in Thailand in the 60s or so.

Part of the reason the Chinese were able to rise in Thai society is owing to the fact that they paid protection money to various military and police leaders such as Sarit and Phao in the fifties.

Until fairly recently most of the university students in Thailand were Chinese as they were the ones who could afford to send their children off for an education.

In any case, the government of the time made a decision to keep the peasants on the farms and out of the cities, which provided the opening and opportunity for the Chinese to advance.

[MiG16]

for a few who are still managing the original hardware store, there are hundreds who have already "melted" in the Thai melting pot.

that may be the case...that they have integrated well into thai society...so much so that to some untrained eyes, you cant tell the difference.

but Id have to disagree with you that they try to hide their origin. I know lots and lots of chinese thais, and all of them make it quite clear.....through various things....celebrating chinese new year, including sharing food to neighbours and friends, certainly advertising the fact that they are chinese....their funerals..very much in traditional chinese style, including burial grounds, paying respects to the departed at festivals, but also at home....prayers and shrines at home...in chinese.., speaking at home in chinese,

it is also common knowledge about many big businesses that have chinese background. for instance CP group....it is quite known that they are chinese, so much so that there is a rumour (?) that when you apply for jobs, at the interview, they not only assess you on your skills and presentations, but also your 'feng shui' (could be a rumour...but as they say..where theres smoke, theres fire...so must have some truth to it?)

[Dakhar]

Until fairly recently most of the university students in Thailand were Chinese as they were the ones who could afford to send their children off for an education.

Additionally, the Chinese have historically recognized the value of an educational...... but the Thai's...... well I am sure I do not need to expostulate any further.

[Naam]

BTW the Hokieng is the official language in Singapore.

Mandarin is one of Singapore's four official languages, not Hokieng. however, Howkieng is widely spoken by Chinese living in Singapore.

[Pierrot]

for a few who are still managing the original hardware store, there are hundreds who have already "melted" in the Thai melting pot.

that may be the case...that they have integrated well into thai society...so much so that to some untrained eyes, you cant tell the difference.

but Id have to disagree with you that they try to hide their origin. I know lots and lots of chinese thais, and all of them make it quite clear.....through various things....celebrating chinese new year, including sharing food to neighbours and friends, certainly advertising the fact that they are chinese....their funerals..very much in traditional chinese style, including burial grounds, paying respects to the departed at festivals, but also at home....prayers and shrines at home...in chinese.., speaking at home in chinese,

That's very interesting. Do you know many Thais who speak Chinese ? 90% of our friends and relatives are of Chinese origin, only one speaks a little bit of Chinese because of her grand mother.

What I've been explained, and you can find some confirmation in the above posts, is that Thailand is a very elitist society. Acknowledging Chinese ancestry is admitting one of your recent ancestors was poor and uneducated.

Sometime I found very funny hearing people who could easily disappear in a Beijing crowd calling someone “Chinese” which usually means poor education, poor taste, poor manners. Thai Chinese are very unusual in Asia as the only Chinese from the diaspora who refers themselves as citizen of their country of adoption rather than Chinese. And I don’t really agree that Chinese don’t mix, in Thailand I mean. In Thailand it’s more a question of class than ethnicity

[Pierrot]

it is also common knowledge about many big businesses that have chinese background. for instance CP group....it is quite known that they are chinese, so much so that there is a rumour (?) that when you apply for jobs, at the interview, they not only assess you on your skills and presentations, but also your 'feng shui' (could be a rumour...but as they say..where theres smoke, theres fire...so must have some truth to it?)

Honnestly, I don't think so. We have a relative, a quite successful Fung Shui master working in the corporate world, I never heard about that before. I will ask and let you know.

On the other hand, what you're talking about is more fortune telling than Fung Shui.

[wamberal]

In my experience, Thai people of Chinese ancestory are often reluctant to celebrate their ethnicity.

I think this stems from the fear of losing citizenship, which was probably a real one until not all that many years ago.

Really ??

They're quick enough to celebrate the Chinese New Yar though & have Holidays to celebrate it though...

Okay, I should have pointed out that I am taking quite a long view here. When I first came to Thailand, almost 30 years ago, I worked as a consultant in a very large public corporation. Ethnic tensions were palpable, between Thai and Chinese staff.

One of my closest colleagues, ethnic Chinese, told me that it was fairly common for a Chinese family to marry one of their daughters off into a Thai military or civil service family, as insurance against the possibility of being kicked out of the country. Mind you, this was at a time when there were still communist elements at large in the country, and not very long after the Thammasat massacre.

While the circumstances today are probably quite different, some of the older generation of Chinese Thais have a sense of insecurity - as well as a sense of Chinese superiority, which they are of course reluctant to be too open about.

[MiG16]

that may be the case...that they have integrated well into thai society...so much so that to some untrained eyes, you cant tell the difference.

but Id have to disagree with you that they try to hide their origin. I know lots and lots of chinese thais, and all of them make it quite clear.....through various things....celebrating chinese new year, including sharing food to neighbours and friends, certainly advertising the fact that they are chinese....their funerals..very much in traditional chinese style, including burial grounds, paying respects to the departed at festivals, but also at home....prayers and shrines at home...in chinese.., speaking at home in chinese,

That's very interesting. Do you know many Thais who speak Chinese ?

Acknowledging Chinese ancestry is admitting one of your recent ancestors was poor and uneducated.

yes I do. wasnt that what I said in my original post? the level of their fluency varies, and what chinese language they speak also varies. there are some who cant really speak it, but do understand it. however, when it comes to celebrating anything thats openly chinese, none of my thai chinese friends would even think about 'hiding' it. I dont think the thought even crosses their minds that they might need to.

perhaps 60 years ago..when things were still difficult for the chinese thais....say for instance a chinese thai guy that falls in love with an ethnic thai girl whose family would oppose the union....then they might be more reluctant to be 'too chinese'.

in this day and age? I know many many chinese thais....of all generations...from grandmothers/ aunts/parents/ people my own age...and also the very young...teenage...... all will do traditional things. the degree of enthusiasm may vary...but thats the case with every society. how many ethnic young thais like to go to the temples or do things like thai handicraft these days? it is to do with modernism, and more western influence taking over, rather than needing to hide having chinese connection. at least with the people i know..that has been the case.

in terms of ancestry being poor and uneducated, again my experience has been the contrary. the families I know celebrate the fact that their ancestors came to thailand with nothing, and over the course of short time, have managed to achieve so much. I also know of some who have gone back to China to try to find their parents relatives, some take gifts and money for them when they know the relatives are living in poor conditions.

it is also common knowledge about many big businesses that have chinese background. for instance CP group....it is quite known that they are chinese, so much so that there is a rumour (?) that when you apply for jobs, at the interview, they not only assess you on your skills and presentations, but also your 'feng shui' (could be a rumour...but as they say..where theres smoke, theres fire...so must have some truth to it?)

Honnestly, I don't think so. We have a relative, a quite successful Fung Shui master working in the corporate world, I never heard about that before. I will ask and let you know.

On the other hand, what you're talking about is more fortune telling than Fung Shui.

I dont think its fortune telling? there is talks about, for instance...friend says to me: no you wont get a job with CP, cos your forehead is not broad enough. broad forehead in chinese is taken to represent fortune/brain/smart or something like that i think?

the study of surrounds, and features of the body/face - isnt that what the chinese art of feng shui is about?

anyway, the point is not whether CP group uses fengshui as one aspect of recruitment (by the way..not explicit...) but it is to do with the fact that big corporates and executives that have chinese blood also do not try to hide it.

next time you go to your corner shop or small food place...try to see if you can spot any signs that will show they have chinese ancestry.

or even in school.....or in office...if you know someone's relative has just died.....see if you spot a piece of earth-tone cloth that is stuck to the sleeve of their shirt. thats a sign to say they are in mourning.

walk in to the Thepsirin Temple (near the central railway station), and you will see a number of funerals taking place. very likely that you will find more than one chinese one. you will see they have the 'kong tek' ceremony happening on one of the evenings that the prayers are held. 'kong tek' is where relatives build houses, clothes, cars, money in paper that are then burnt so that it goes with the departed, to use in their next life or whereever it is they go to.

or observe your neighbours ....at various times of year...they will be setting out table of food - chicken, duck, pork, fruit etc, along with burning some type of paper. this is to pay respect to either departed family members, or guardian angels

numerous other examples really.

[Pierrot]

I also know of some who have gone back to China to try to find their parents relatives, some take gifts and money for them when they know the relatives are living in poor conditions.

Actually that was my original question. Do they want to share their experience? Or can you just give us a brief resume of their story, from the original village in China to where they are now ?

I read a lot of offensive comments about Thai Chinese, but when people understand what some people, some families have been through, opinion may change.

[soundman]

My wife's grandfather came from China to Thailand in the 1920's, as a teenager, with nothing apart from the shirt on his back. He worked various labour jobs around Bkk and surrounding provinces, until, when in his mid twenties, met wife's grandmother.

Over the next twenty year's, through working, and sunsequently starting business's including rice factory, rice transportation business, other ag. activities including a crocodile farm, casino, gun shop etc, he became a prominent businessman in the area.

During the Chinese purges in the middle of last century, to protect the family iterests, he changed his name to a Thai name & refused to acknowledge any chinese ancestry or traditions at all.

This went on through the war years, which, incedently, he was almost killed twice by Japanese and allied bombs.

Moving on into the sixties and seventies, he returned to his chinese heretige, embracing it. A local group of Chinese immigrants, including wife's grandfather built a large chinese temple.

To this day, the whole family, are very aware of all Chinese heriditory traditions and where they came from. They are not at all ashamed of their heritage and openly show it.

The grandfather died a few years ago, an extremely wealthy man. The whole main street of the town was partially closed down for the entire seven day funeral.

To say that the Chinese Thai's are not proud of their heritage is absolute nonsense from what I can see. Visit any town Eastern Thailand and you will find large sections of the town openly procaiming their chinese heretige.

[henryalleman]

I also know of some who have gone back to China to try to find their parents relatives, some take gifts and money for them when they know the relatives are living in poor conditions.

Actually that was my original question. Do they want to share their experience? Or can you just give us a brief resume of their story, from the original village in China to where they are now ?

I read a lot of offensive comments about Thai Chinese, but when people understand what some people, some families have been through, opinion may change.

My father -in-law was born in Thailand , but when I became 4 years old his parents send him to China to brought up with his grandparents, as it was tradition at that period(early 20th' century). When he became an adult he came back to Thailand. He started from scratch but he became an important business man, thanks to an interest free loan and the business connections of an Chinese neighbour.

I know my father-in-law had some relatives and land left in China, but it was all confiscated by the Communist in 1948. So all relationships where cut off, during the Mao reign and this is so till today.

Because he had to change his name to be a Thai name( see previous topic) and never told his children his Chinses name. I think this is the case for many Sino/Thai. So its very difficult to find your roots if you don't know your original Chinese name. Thailand implemented an politic of assimilation towards Chines in the kingdom. Thats why Sino/Thai are one of the most nationalistic Thais despite the fact that they keep Chinese family traditions. That's why you see many Chinese cemeteries' and once a year the offering some flowers and food to them. And even the grand-grand children are teached to follow that tradition. My wife's family always visit the parents grave when they go the home town

He married 4 wives in 4 different towns and he took take car all of them, and also his nephews aunts and uncles, who where spread all over Thailand. At that time its was still allowed in Thailand to be married with several women.(and no, he was not a Muslim) My wife"s mother was his youngest wife and she had 7 children with him, he died in the late 1960's.

He refused to talk Chines at home and is children where not allowed to learn or speak Tea-Jiw. Because he said we are in Thailand and therefore you must grow as Thai and be proud to be Thai, because this is our country and our future is here. Nevertheless not any of his children where married with a Thai, and almost all of his Grand- and Grand children are married with Sino/Thai. Only my wife is not, and her younger sister is married with a Hmong.

But her children are again married with an Sino/Thai.

When my youngest stepson ( who's skin is darker than normal for an Sino/Thai) liked to be married with an Sino/Thai girl from a well off family they asked a huge Sinsod. My wife and her 2 sisters went to them (by good old Chinese tradition) to discus the arrangements and the Sinsod. During the discussion the future family in-law found out that my wife came from an respectable Sino/Thai family, and suddenly there was no more talk about Sinsod, on the contrary they offered to pay all expenses, and even offered the newly Wed's a house, what my stepson kindly denied. What gave him and my wife's family great respect in that family.

BTW the fiance's where in not any moment involved in the discussions about the agreements. And by my knowledge this is also the case in most middle class Thai families.

I even know a case where one aunt came over from Spain to be part of the discussions.

So members who complain about Sinsod, have not so much knowledge of Thai culture and should read the topic written by another well informed member about it

One member asked if an Chinese employer use Fen Sui to determinate who will hire as an employee. IMHO he don't, but if there are 2 candidates, one Sino/Thai and the other one Thai, 95% of the time he will hire the Sino/Thai.

Changing the way of thinking by Thai people about Sino/Thai will be very difficult, because the animosity towards them is too deep. Many expat have no idea about the animosity(being polite) between Thai and other ethnic groups and vica versa.

[mittheimp]

My ex is Thai-Chinese, she never felt Chinese was something to celebrate as her great great grandfather effectively sold of his two twin daughers. They arrived here at age 13, got separated immediately upon arrival and never saw each other again. She believes they were from the island of Hainan - as was her fathers side coincidently. She has no interest in China, other than making disparaging remarks about the custom and culture and, despite loving travelling, has no desire to ever visit China.

Thai Chinese genrally have intergrated better than other SE Asian nations, with no serious conflict. Maybe that is why the interest is less.