Financial Crisis

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

The consensus here seems to be ......

This new, yes left wing, Occupy movement........

Again this is the WORLDWIDE financial crisis thread

I will go start a soapbox/thread for you

You show your total lack of knowledge & would like to degrade this long running thread to a

political rhetoric thread.

Go do it in the new Occupy as a means to financial reform thread

I agree with Flying, JT get lost, this is not a political thread.

[Jingthing]

I just read a number of Flying's posts in response to the complaints about politics. Many of his posts are chock full of political content. Check it out yourself. The thing that recently got me offended was the suggestion that the Occupy movement was about some of the radical things supported by Flying and others, including totally abolishing taxes (he actually said that) and ending the federal reserve. So I feel I correctly identified this new movement more correctly as a populist response to the pain caused by the crisis interested in things like income inequality, massive unemployment, and corporate greed. It seems to me some are whining not so much about political content, but political content from non-true believers of totally whacked out solutions. But I will back off for a while as requested. But if you are going to continue to push an agenda that the Occupy is something it obviously is not, that deserves rebuttal. So it goes both ways. OK?

Edited October 5, 2011 by Jingthing

[mommysboy]

Looking out the window on Wall Street these days, I see the birth of the biggest populist leftist movement since the great depression. What do you see? A clone of the reactionary anti-poor people tea party? People clamoring to go back to the gold standard? Hilarious! Time to see an ophthalmologist, mate.

Strikes me Capitalism has been flogged to death in the West at least. It relies on credit and growth, both may not be at hand for years even decades to come to sustain the type of nonsense we've had for the past 30 years.

So I think somehow Socialism will be reborn, in some form or another. Can't see any other route.

[cloudhopper]

Interesting essay on the role of credit in the mainstream economy -

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=195434

[flying]

Interesting essay on the role of credit in the mainstream economy -

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=195434

Thanks CH that was a very good article & it better describes my

shortened "I Will Gladly Pay You Tuesday For A Hamburger Today"

quip.

I agree with the article except the one point he made about student loans....

I may be wrong but I think students are not protected by bankruptcy for student loans any longer in the USA.

I believe it is a debt that can follow them their whole life & even be deducted from the Social Security

Other than that I agree 100%

As I have often said secede.....Dont feed the beast

We do not have a K-Mart where I live but I see from commercials on television

that they have brought back the lay-away concept of buying that my mom used when we were kids.

Of course this re-invention of an old concept now includes a service fee of $10 but still better than

the alternatives.

What he said about medical costs also true.

[cloudhopper]

This comment on one of Mish's posts caught my eye -

Mish,

You have impressed with your take on the importance of credit on the economy and financial markets. But you have really been off base with regard to the EU situation. "Extend and Pretend" has won as official policy and can continue indefinitely so long as the ECB plays along. The German ECB resignations were not, as you asserted, a brake against monetization of bank and sovereign debt. They were, in fact, acknowledgement that seigniorage is inevitable. Does this mean the apocalyptic outcome you predict won't occur? No, the costs will be far greater than immediate EU break-up. But one thing it will not be is quick. Extend and pretend ECB printing can drag out the denouement for a good decade at least (as can, by the way, the Fed's printing, the BOJ's printing, etc.)

[midas]

Extend and pretend ECB printing can drag out the denouement for a good decade at least (as can, by the way, the Fed's printing, the BOJ's printing, etc.)

oh no !

Edited October 6, 2011 by midas

[Naam]

Extend and pretend ECB printing can drag out the denouement for a good decade at least (as can, by the way, the Fed's printing, the BOJ's printing, etc.)

oh no !

OH YES!

[Naam]

Does this mean the apocalyptic outcome you predict won't occur? No, the costs will be far greater than immediate EU break-up.

the good news is... most probably neither Cloudhopper nor Midas nor Naam will be alive to experience and savour the coming apocalypse.

young chaps like Flying will be the lucky ones.

[cloudhopper]

The best news in this report appears to be planned hiring by ToysRUs, Halloween City and Party City. The denial business appears to be flourishing at least...

U.S. employers said in September that they had plans to lay off 115,000 workers, according to a report by employment consultant firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas Inc.

That's more than double the planned layoffs reported by Challenger in its report on August, and more than three times the cuts planned a year earlier.

Indeed, it was the worst planned-layoffs report by the firm since April 2009.

[cloudhopper]

Extend and pretend ECB printing can drag out the denouement for a good decade at least (as can, by the way, the Fed's printing, the BOJ's printing, etc.)

oh no !

Here's some commentary on why - http://robertreich.org/post/11033625495

[Naam]

Extend and pretend ECB printing can drag out the denouement for a good decade at least (as can, by the way, the Fed's printing, the BOJ's printing, etc.)

oh no !

Here's some commentary on why - http://robertreich.org/post/11033625495

Make no mistake. The United States wants Europe to bail out its deeply indebted nations so they can repay what they owe big European banks. Otherwise, those banks could implode — taking Wall Street with them.

In other words, Greece isn’t the real problem. Nor is Ireland, Italy, Portugal, or Spain. The real problem is the financial system — centered on Wall Street. And we still haven’t solved it.

there's a winner!

[flying]

Layoffs In September EXPLODE 126% In Worst Month Since April 2009

According to Jim Sinclair QEIII likely to start immediately due to news above

Edited October 6, 2011 by flying

[Wrong Turn]

Layoffs In September EXPLODE 126% In Worst Month Since April 2009

According to Jim Sinclair QEIII likely to start immediately due to news above

Yes, layoffs skyrocked in September, and the ECRI reports is calling for a recession - at least 2 quarters of neg GDP growth - and of course there is the European situation.

I'll be in South East Asia for a while. That's OK, though.

As for QE3: 3 fingers in a dyke with dozens of holes. The first 2 didn't not only fail, but continued the problem. Same for this little QE3, this time around.

[cloudhopper]

I don't know about QE3 to infinity. It seems fairly obvious to all that QE hasn't worked as expected but did cause lots of unwelcome volatility in food, energy etc. The politicians might end up doing it out of desperation on some catastrophic scale which is why I hold PM but it in no way does QE have the inevitability ascribed to it by Sinclair and many others. As has already been pointed out this has already been tried in Japan and has failed. Far more likely IMO is that whatever QE and/or fiscal measures they are able to do in an increasingly volatile political climate will be ineffective in stopping a deflationary contraction. In fact a deflationary contraction is the only possible outcome IMO, whether or not preceded by a currency crisis. Aggregate consumption simply cannot exceed production for long, 'advances' in political science notwithstanding.

[Naam]

Layoffs In September EXPLODE 126% In Worst Month Since April 2009

According to Jim Sinclair QEIII likely to start immediately due to news above

who is Jim Sinclair?

[Jingthing]

Layoffs In September EXPLODE 126% In Worst Month Since April 2009

According to Jim Sinclair QEIII likely to start immediately due to news above

who is Jim Sinclair?

Yet another loon who wants to cancel the federal reserve. Total nihilism.

[Naam]

Layoffs In September EXPLODE 126% In Worst Month Since April 2009

According to Jim Sinclair QEIII likely to start immediately due to news above

who is Jim Sinclair?

Yet another loon who wants to cancel the federal reserve. Total nihilism.

having wet dreams doesn't necessarily make a man a loony. if that was the case we'd be all loonies

[Jingthing]

You dream about instantly melting down the global economy? That sounds like a serious illness, dude.

[midas]

You dream about instantly melting down the global economy? That sounds like a serious illness, dude.

you can't have it both ways Jingthing ?

you said yesterday you are proud of your leftist comrades occupying Wall Street but if you look at

all the comments on their website there are huge numbers of people in this movement wanting to end the Fed.

So are they all loonies as well?

Edited October 6, 2011 by midas

[Jingthing]

You dream about instantly melting down the global economy? That sounds like a serious illness, dude.

you can't have it both ways Jingthing ?

you said yesterday you are proud of your leftist comrades occupying Wall Street but if you look at

all the comments on their website there are huge numbers of people in this movement wanting to end the Fed.

So are they all loonies as well?

Please note -- you brought up politics so I get to respond.

I don't believe the position of the Occupy movement when they bake it will be to end the federal reserve. If it is, I will oppose them.

Where the Occupy movement will go is of course in a process.

It was suggested yesterday in the Washington Post that it might be split in two, a more radical wing that rejects all partisan politics and a more practical political wing (a grand coalition of progressive groups, moveon.org, unions, etc.) perhaps named after WE ARE THE 99. The practical political wing would of course be leftist progressive and would try to take power over the democratic party in a similar way that the tea party has taken over the republican.

BTW, this new shift to the left greatly increases the chances Obama will be reelected.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Jingthing

[midas]

You dream about instantly melting down the global economy? That sounds like a serious illness, dude.

you can't have it both ways Jingthing ?

you said yesterday you are proud of your leftist comrades occupying Wall Street but if you look at

all the comments on their website there are huge numbers of people in this movement wanting to end the Fed.

So are they all loonies as well?

Please note -- you brought up politics so I get to respond.

I don't believe the position of the Occupy movement when they bake it will be to end the federal reserve. If it is, I will oppose them.

Where the Occupy movement will go is of course in a process.

It was suggested yesterday in the Washington Post that it might be split in two, a more radical wing that rejects all partisan politics and a more practical political wing (a grand coalition of progressive groups, moveon.org, unions, etc.) perhaps named after WE ARE THE 99. The practical political wing would of course be leftist progressive and would try to take power over the democratic party in a similar way that the tea party has taken over the republican.

BTW, this new shift to the left greatly increases the chances Obama will be reelected.

oh no now I will be banished for opening the floodgates

Jingthing if you are correct that there will be split,I don't care which faction ends up being in charge,

ultimately I can't see how the existence of the Federal reserve can benefit any ordinary people?

It's one of the most fraudulent and corrupt organisations on the planet steeped in secrecy.

I believe the people including the very ones you support understand this is their one opportunity

to end this most unorthodox situation where a group of private bankers can hold the entire country

to ransom

[midas]

5 Facts You Should Know About the Wealthiest One Percent of Americans

" The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Own Half of the Country’s Stocks, Bonds and Mutual Funds "

http://www.alternet.org/economy/152601/5_facts_you_should_know_about_the_wealthiest_one_percent_of_americans

[Jingthing]

5 Facts You Should Know About the Wealthiest One Percent of Americans

" The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Own Half of the Country’s Stocks, Bonds and Mutual Funds "

http://www.alternet.org/economy/152601/5_facts_you_should_know_about_the_wealthiest_one_percent_of_americans

More in the vein.

There's Stiglitz again, spend, spend, spend!

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_says_the_top_one_1_percent_of_americans_have_.html

In short, inequality has increased in the past decade, leaving the 99 percent with smaller and smaller proportions of income and wealth. And it has many economists, public policy wonks, and, well, protesters very, very worried. As put by Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, “growing inequality is the flip side of something else: shrinking opportunity. Whenever we diminish equality of opportunity, it means that we are not using some of our most valuable assets—our people—in the most productive way possible.”

Whether Occupy Wall Street can help to rectify that imbalance—who knows. But there is certainly value in at least making sure Americans know just how unequal the country is.

[midas]

5 Facts You Should Know About the Wealthiest One Percent of Americans

" The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Own Half of the Country’s Stocks, Bonds and Mutual Funds "

http://www.alternet.org/economy/152601/5_facts_you_should_know_about_the_wealthiest_one_percent_of_americans

More in the vein.

There's Stiglitz again, spend, spend, spend!

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_says_the_top_one_1_percent_of_americans_have_.html

In short, inequality has increased in the past decade, leaving the 99 percent with smaller and smaller proportions of income and wealth. And it has many economists, public policy wonks, and, well, protesters very, very worried. As put by Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, “growing inequality is the flip side of something else: shrinking opportunity. Whenever we diminish equality of opportunity, it means that we are not using some of our most valuable assets—our people—in the most productive way possible.”

Whether Occupy Wall Street can help to rectify that imbalance—who knows. But there is certainly value in at least making sure Americans know just how unequal the country is.

I didn't post that article to generate more calls for spend, spend, spend

It's quite apparent that there is incredible inequality in USA and I wonder exactly

who is on the list of 1% and how did they generate that kind of money?

Edited October 6, 2011 by midas

[waza]

5 Facts You Should Know About the Wealthiest One Percent of Americans

" The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Own Half of the Country's Stocks, Bonds and Mutual Funds "

http://www.alternet....nt_of_americans

More in the vein.

There's Stiglitz again, spend, spend, spend!

http://www.slate.com...cans_have_.html

In short, inequality has increased in the past decade, leaving the 99 percent with smaller and smaller proportions of income and wealth. And it has many economists, public policy wonks, and, well, protesters very, very worried. As put by Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, "growing inequality is the flip side of something else: shrinking opportunity. Whenever we diminish equality of opportunity, it means that we are not using some of our most valuable assets—our people—in the most productive way possible."

Whether Occupy Wall Street can help to rectify that imbalance—who knows. But there is certainly value in at least making sure Americans know just how unequal the country is.

I didn't post that article to generate more calls for spend, spend, spend

It's quite apparent that there is incredible inequality in USA and I wonder exactly

who is on the list of 1% and how did they generate that kind of money?

The answer to your question is in a video cloudhopper posted the other day. The men who crashed the world

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/meltdown/2011/09/2011914105518615434.html

Edited October 6, 2011 by waza

[Jingthing]

Here is the first "official" collective statement from the Occupy movement. Nothing about nixing the Federal Reserve, and there never will be.

http://current.com/shows/countdown/blog/complete-transcript-for-oct-05-2011

“As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies. As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members. That our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors. That a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people, and the Earth, and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power.

We come to you at a time when corporations — which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality — run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here as is our right to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in workplaces based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity, and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is, itself, a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut worker’s health care and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams, but look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products, endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives, or provide relief in order to protect investments that have

already turned a substantial profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully kept people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners, even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City general assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble, occupy public space, create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard.”

[flying]

who is Jim Sinclair?

Yet another loon who wants to cancel the federal reserve. Total nihilism.

having wet dreams doesn't necessarily make a man a loony. if that was the case we'd be all loonies

Disregard the troll....This is what happens when he gets all his info from Kieth Olbergirl on MSN countdown

Jim Sinclair is primarily a precious metals specialist and a commodities and foreign currency trader.

Founded Sinclair group in 1977

His three books deal mainly with PM's, investment strategies & geopolitical events.

[waza]

"Jim Sinclair is primarily a precious metals specialist and a commodities and foreign currency trader. He founded the Sinclair Group of Companies in 1977, which offered full brokerage services in stocks, bonds, and other investment vehicles. The companies, which operated branches in New York, Kansas City, Toronto, Chicago, London and Geneva, were sold in 1983." My link

Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work, ^{[My link}

[Wrong Turn]

Extend and pretend ECB printing can drag out the denouement for a good decade at least (as can, by the way, the Fed's printing, the BOJ's printing, etc.)

oh no !

Here's some commentary on why - http://robertreich.org/post/11033625495

Cloudhopper,

Thanx for the Robert Reich article. I used to follow his blog.

As Reich states (and I believe he's correct) - if Greece defaults (which was going to happen as we knew it about 14 months ago), then investors will flee the others: Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal....

So...there will be tumult in Europe and the US, as US banks have lent to the European banks, that have in turn lent to Greece and the other PIIGS.

Tough times are coming.