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Posted
Did anyone happen to see the ad in the Bangkok Post by one of the well known international law firms advertising that it will handle labour cases on a no fee basis pending a victory? Interesting stuff. :D

Went to said 'well known international law firm' - well my mate Dave did. He said that there were catches...a deposit of around 20,000B up front, as well as a possible non returnable 'consultancy fee' to pay for the time taken by their lawyers to decide whether or not to take the case.

You didn't really expect m'learned friends to work for free did you? Think what a terrible precedent that would set :o

Posted

Must have missed the reply to the question...

What if the teacher is "offered" a contract for less money and required to teach more hours.

She declines, based on this.

Is she then due severance?

The examples of hiring people for less money to do the same job or ceasing the use of an agency were not answered.

Posted (edited)
Did anyone happen to see the ad in the Bangkok Post by one of the well known international law firms advertising that it will handle labour cases on a no fee basis pending a victory? Interesting stuff. :o

Went to said 'well known international law firm' - well my mate Dave did. He said that there were catches...a deposit of around 20,000B up front, as well as a possible non returnable 'consultancy fee' to pay for the time taken by their lawyers to decide whether or not to take the case.

Phatcharanan - would you be able to point my mate Dave in the direction of the lawyers that you had success with..? And what were the fees like?

Thanks!

Sorry for the delay. Been on hols.

Chaninat & Leeds, 10/154 Trendy Building, Sukhumvit Road, Soi 13, Vadhana, Tel. 662168 7001

Ask to speak to Mrs. Chaninat Leeds. She is the Labour Law specialist. Thai and fluent English. Ex-professor of Law at some uni, forget which.

The name "Leeds" is her husbands, an American lawyer still at the bar in the USA

Edited by Phatcharanan
Posted
Must have missed the reply to the question...

What if the teacher is "offered" a contract for less money and required to teach more hours.

She declines, based on this.

Is she then due severance?

The examples of hiring people for less money to do the same job or ceasing the use of an agency were not answered.

Thats not a difficult one. Your contract states your job and your pay. If you do not sign any new contract the old one "expired or not" is still valid. The only way they can prohibit you from coming to work for the same pay / work load is to fire you. You are always in your right as long as you do not sign anything!! So she should decline but still show up for work. If she does not shows up, she refuses her work and then the company has a right to fire her without severance pay!!

Also starting a new contract / job change does not restart your working time with the company. If that was the case they had to fire you from one job and hire for the second, meaning you have a right to severance pay when switching.

So always count your working time from the first day of work with the said company and never sign anything you dont agree with. Trust me the Labor Law is made to protect us "The Employees" and we are nearly always in our rights, so never sign and never give up.

Posted
Thats not a difficult one. Your contract states your job and your pay. If you do not sign any new contract the old one "expired or not" is still valid. The only way they can prohibit you from coming to work for the same pay / work load is to fire you.

You would be coming to work without a valid Work Permit and I assume, in the country with a Tourist VISA or some sort of VISA which doesn't allow you to work there legally. You then would refuse to work more than previously and demand the same wage. Am I understanding you correctly?

Posted

You may be under the misapprehension, BMS, that one must be a perfectly legal worker to be afforded labour law protections. Such is not the case. Multiple times- even, for example, with illegal undocumented Indian restaurant workers who were unfairly fired- labour law has been demonstrated to work in favour of the worker.

If one were working illegally, one would still have a penalty applied for that- but labour law would still protect one's rights with the employer. So, for example, if evidence could be found of a good-faith agreement (a signed contract even without official registry or work permit), the school would still be held to it according to labour law. It would be the employee's risk (of being prosecuted for illegal working, etc.) if he wanted to pursue the matter, but it can be done.

Therefore it is my understanding that even illegal, undocumented aliens could be eligible for severance under many conditions.

Posted
You may be under the misapprehension, BMS, that one must be a perfectly legal worker to be afforded labour law protections. Such is not the case. Multiple times- even, for example, with illegal undocumented Indian restaurant workers who were unfairly fired- labour law has been demonstrated to work in favour of the worker.

If one were working illegally, one would still have a penalty applied for that- but labour law would still protect one's rights with the employer. So, for example, if evidence could be found of a good-faith agreement (a signed contract even without official registry or work permit), the school would still be held to it according to labour law. It would be the employee's risk (of being prosecuted for illegal working, etc.) if he wanted to pursue the matter, but it can be done.

Therefore it is my understanding that even illegal, undocumented aliens could be eligible for severance under many conditions.

I think your assumptions and conclusions are flawed. For starters, there is no "good faith" agreement when you, the teacher, refuse to sign a new contract. While the offer may be lower with more work as we outlined, it was still made in "good faith" and therefore, the argument seem valid that you, the employee, "quit" when declined to sign or accept it. The idea that illegal aliens are due severance pay, while reads great, I have a sense that all these international companies and individuals hiring Filipinos and Indians to do the "dirty" work in various capacities around the globe don't honor severance labor law. It seems odd you think Thailand is going to be and is different but I'll leave it to you and the labor courts to convince us.

Posted
Did anyone happen to see the ad in the Bangkok Post by one of the well known international law firms advertising that it will handle labour cases on a no fee basis pending a victory? Interesting stuff. :D

Went to said 'well known international law firm' - well my mate Dave did. He said that there were catches...a deposit of around 20,000B up front, as well as a possible non returnable 'consultancy fee' to pay for the time taken by their lawyers to decide whether or not to take the case.

Phatcharanan - would you be able to point my mate Dave in the direction of the lawyers that you had success with..? And what were the fees like?

Thanks!

Sorry for the delay. Been on hols.

Chaninat & Leeds, 10/154 Trendy Building, Sukhumvit Road, Soi 13, Vadhana, Tel. 662168 7001

Ask to speak to Mrs. Chaninat Leeds. She is the Labour Law specialist. Thai and fluent English. Ex-professor of Law at some uni, forget which.

The name "Leeds" is her husbands, an American lawyer still at the bar in the USA

Many thanks for that :o . Much appreciated! Will pass it on to Dave. Forgot to mention on my last post that Dave said the lawyers of 'international repute' were in fact very positive about getting a severance payout on the basis of multiple yearly contracts....

Posted
You may be under the misapprehension, BMS, that one must be a perfectly legal worker to be afforded labour law protections. Such is not the case. Multiple times- even, for example, with illegal undocumented Indian restaurant workers who were unfairly fired- labour law has been demonstrated to work in favour of the worker.

If one were working illegally, one would still have a penalty applied for that- but labour law would still protect one's rights with the employer. So, for example, if evidence could be found of a good-faith agreement (a signed contract even without official registry or work permit), the school would still be held to it according to labour law. It would be the employee's risk (of being prosecuted for illegal working, etc.) if he wanted to pursue the matter, but it can be done.

Therefore it is my understanding that even illegal, undocumented aliens could be eligible for severance under many conditions.

I think your assumptions and conclusions are flawed. For starters, there is no "good faith" agreement when you, the teacher, refuse to sign a new contract. While the offer may be lower with more work as we outlined, it was still made in "good faith" and therefore, the argument seem valid that you, the employee, "quit" when declined to sign or accept it. The idea that illegal aliens are due severance pay, while reads great, I have a sense that all these international companies and individuals hiring Filipinos and Indians to do the "dirty" work in various capacities around the globe don't honor severance labor law. It seems odd you think Thailand is going to be and is different but I'll leave it to you and the labor courts to convince us.

I'm not talking about refusal to sign a contract, or international companies around the globe. Please do keep up.

Posted
You would be coming to work without a valid Work Permit and I assume, in the country with a Tourist VISA or some sort of VISA which doesn't allow you to work there legally. You then would refuse to work more than previously and demand the same wage. Am I understanding you correctly?

I think your assumptions and conclusions are flawed. For starters, there is no "good faith" agreement when you, the teacher, refuse to sign a new contract. While the offer may be lower with more work as we outlined, it was still made in "good faith" and therefore, the argument seem valid that you, the employee, "quit" when declined to sign or accept it. The idea that illegal aliens are due severance pay, while reads great, I have a sense that all these international companies and individuals hiring Filipinos and Indians to do the "dirty" work in various capacities around the globe don't honor severance labor law. It seems odd you think Thailand is going to be and is different but I'll leave it to you and the labor courts to convince us.

Refusing to sign a new contract does not mean quiting. You dont understand the first principle.

Time based contracts do not exist in Thailand if the job is a normal business for he company.

For example a teacher for a school. So it does not matter if my contract expires on paper, by law it is still continueing. A company can ask you to sign a new contract, but if you refuse then the old one is still in effect. Because time based contracts do not exist by Thai law! Read the law or ask any lawyer and he will inform you like this.

Talking about the work permit. I presume it stated in your contract that your employer will arrange a work permit. As you old contract is still valid, they will have to supply you with it. Not doing so will result in a contract break and you having a right for severance pay.

You guys should remember 1 thing. The Thai labor law is only written to protect employees, not employers.

So trust me in nearly every case the employee will be in his right, do not listen to any employers claiming they are in their right, becaus they never are. As long as you dont sign anything, the old contract is valid.

BTW, even if your contract reads that you have no right to severance pay, you still have. As that clause is not legal in the Thai Law and so on not valid.

Posted
Talking about the work permit. I presume it stated in your contract that your employer will arrange a work permit. As you old contract is still valid, they will have to supply you with it. Not doing so will result in a contract break and you having a right for severance pay.

Never seen nor heard of the Work Permit being a part of a teachers contract in Thailand. The decision to issue it isn't the schools to make either so your second point becomes moot. The school doesn't control the labor department(in theory). That leaves us back where we started. You may be demanding to work or be fired, which isn't in the best interest of the employer, and there you sit at the school without a schedule, without a Work Permit, without a current contract, and without a VISA. But it is suggested here you may get a severance offer or are deserving of one legally. Not IMHO the best of positions for a foreigner but I'm all in favor of it being paid to everyone.

Posted
A company can ask you to sign a new contract, but if you refuse then the old one is still in effect.

Just out of curiosity, have any teachers out there, who know of teachers not being renewed, seen this "non-renewal" put in writing? My experience is it is always an oral notice(or simply not done in some cases without oral or written).

Posted
Therefore it is my understanding that even illegal, undocumented aliens could be eligible for severance under many conditions.

I'm not talking about refusal to sign a contract, or international companies around the globe. Please do keep up.

I only found your position interesting and wondered why the rest of the world would be cheating these workers and Thailand not. We did give the example of a teacher in Thailand refusing to take a pay cut/more hours and therefore not renewed. Likewise, if the school can hire another teacher for 10,000.baht a month less to perform the same work, they have a basis in some circles to only offer you this new wage. You refuse as would most people, and they hire the less costly teacher. This where the severance question applies. Are you, since you refused the offer, entitled to severance in Thailand?

Posted

^Well, actually that is NOT the question that we were discussing in this thread, and as it happens when workers know of their rights and bother to go through the legal process in this and other countries, they often come out ahead (with the caveat that they can also be penalised for working illegally).

I would imagine in the situation you describe (an employee refuses a new and much less favourable version of a contract) that there is some form of law limiting such behaviours- perhaps a law requiring continuity. I don't know for sure. I would imagine if the offer could be interpreted as being bullying to any INDIVIDUAL employee, and not across the board, that it would be deemed as an effort to break labour law. But I admit I don't have familiarity with anyone who has gone through that situation.

Posted

I don't know how it works with foreign employees, but I do know that one of the things that I have seen at our school is teachers who get 'demoted' to the kitchen or cleaning or in one case, guard. My understanding is that they keep the same salary. In most instances, they quit, because this is a real loss of face, but two of them just went along with it--I think we had the most expensive cook in a Thai school. Eventually, she was 'rehabilitated' and put back in the classroom. She was a tough old bird!

Posted
^Well, actually that is NOT the question that we were discussing in this thread,

Sorry if going off topic. It seems related. I don't see a reply to my other inquiry, which has real life applications:

"Just out of curiosity, have any teachers out there, who know of teachers not being renewed, seen this "non-renewal" put in writing? My experience is it is always an oral notice(or simply not done in some cases without oral or written)."

Since many teaching contracts end at the end of March, and are renewed starting April 1st, for another year, it just makes little sense to me how a teacher could/would wait until he/she wasn't paid for April, start a legal proceeding against a school in May when the school is effectively closed in April, the first week or two in May, show up undocumented in mid-May, etc., and not seek another job with this anticipated solution of severance and VISA and Work Permit ext. demands being met being the alternative. A long sentence and a long road to travel down.

Posted

@ Bruce

""Never seen nor heard of the Work Permit being a part of a teachers contract in Thailand. The decision to issue it isn't the schools to make either so your second point becomes moot. The school doesn't control the labor department(in theory).""

I am not a teacher, but to hire you they need to arrange a workpermit fo you, as in every business. I know the final decision to give out the work permit is not under their control, but they at least need to apply for one!! And if the labor department decides not to hand one out, then your contract will be termnated, giving you again the right to severance pay.

""""Likewise, if the school can hire another teacher for 10,000.baht a month less to perform the same work, they have a basis in some circles to only offer you this new wage. """

This means they will fire you with no rightfull means, as cheaper employees are not a ightfull mean in the Thai Law, making it an unjust lay-off. The same goes for laying you off cause your position is no longer needed and 2 weeks later hire a new guy for the job. This gives you the right to severance pay and unjust layoff compensation which can go up to 1 year salary. Thats even better, I wish my ex employer did that.

Also

Again I want to point out that contracts are not allowed to have ending dates, if they are normal business to an company. So a contract can't end on march and begin on may again. Actually it can, but it means you will have a right to severance pay every year. As you worked over 3 months and less then 1 year, so your right is 1 month severance pay.

Not extending a contract means they fire you, this means you have a right to severance pay.

They might offer you a different contract, but you do not have to take that one. I don't know any cases but have read through the Thai Law and talked to my lawyer to interpred it and it all points to the protection of the employee.

Posted
Sorry for the delay. Been on hols.

Chaninat & Leeds, 10/154 Trendy Building, Sukhumvit Road, Soi 13, Vadhana, Tel. 662168 7001

Ask to speak to Mrs. Chaninat Leeds. She is the Labour Law specialist. Thai and fluent English. Ex-professor of Law at some uni, forget which.

The name "Leeds" is her husbands, an American lawyer still at the bar in the USA

Hey Phatcharanan, what did this law firm charge you for their services?

I just called them and they informed me the basic services will be at least 160.000 THB

what was your experience here?

Posted
Also

Again I want to point out that contracts are not allowed to have ending dates, if they are normal business to an company. So a contract can't end on march and begin on may again. Actually it can, but it means you will have a right to severance pay every year. As you worked over 3 months and less then 1 year, so your right is 1 month severance pay.

Which is it? Allowed or not? If contracts are not "allowed" to have ending dates as you suggest, then how do you explain the thousands of same existing, the Work Permits and VISA's extended and funding for the various programs ALL based upon contracts with a start and end date? We have you and your conversations with your lawyer posted on the internet and then we have all of Thailand to base our opinion and decisions on. I think I'll go with what is actually going on and the as I say thousands of actual experiences. And, they are NOT paying severance to teachers not renewed, sending the money to England or Bombay or Manila to meet this legally required condition of "employment".

Posted

I signed two teaching contracts, both with ending dates. One expired and I signed another, but never saw it again. But they stuck to the letter of the (first and second) contract by giving me 30 days notice (well, 27 days) to terminate early. And those contracts only covered to March 31 at most. Next school was a contract for 12 months, but I am sure the Director never signed it. They did abide by its letter, however. Yes, contracts have beginning and ending dates.

Posted
Which is it? Allowed or not? If contracts are not "allowed" to have ending dates as you suggest, then how do you explain the thousands of same existing, the Work Permits and VISA's extended and funding for the various programs ALL based upon contracts with a start and end date? We have you and your conversations with your lawyer posted on the internet and then we have all of Thailand to base our opinion and decisions on. I think I'll go with what is actually going on and the as I say thousands of actual experiences. And, they are NOT paying severance to teachers not renewed, sending the money to England or Bombay or Manila to meet this legally required condition of "employment".

I see now that it is quite confusing what i said.

A company can put an end date on a contract, which is actually a notice that on that day you will be fired. Normally the company must give a 1 month notice or pay you a full month extra, putting and ending date on a contract takes this must away, as they already notified you 1 year in advance.

About severance pay, severance pay has nothing to do with ending dates in a contract. If you get layed off (contract not renewed) or fired with none of the six reasons in the law, such as theft etc then you have a right to severance pay. So if they give you a contract from may till march = 10 months and do this every year, it effectively means that you will have a right to 1 month severance pay after every contract. As they fire you and rehire you 2 months later.

The companies and mostly universities still work like this because they know that

1. most foreigners are not aware of the Thai Law

2. the severance pay is only 1 month, lawyer costs will most likely be higher, so not many people will persue the matter.

My opinion, not confirmed yet by a lawyer.

If you work for a university for 4 years, with contracts from may till march, I think that you can effectively claim that you worked 4 conaequtive years and claim for 6 months severance pay after your last contract, as the judge will immedietally see what scemes the university is using and slam it to the ground.

I have read this being happened to a certain teacher, but I forgot his name and the exact situation, if i remember I will inform you about it.

Posted
About severance pay, severance pay has nothing to do with ending dates in a contract. If you get layed off (contract not renewed) or fired with none of the six reasons in the law, such as theft etc then you have a right to severance pay. So if they give you a contract from may till march = 10 months and do this every year, it effectively means that you will have a right to 1 month severance pay after every contract. As they fire you and rehire you 2 months later.

If you work for a university for 4 years, with contracts from may till march, I think that you can effectively claim that you worked 4 conaequtive years and claim for 6 months severance pay after your last contract, as the judge will immedietally see what scemes the university is using and slam it to the ground.

I have read this being happened to a certain teacher, but I forgot his name and the exact situation, if i remember I will inform you about it.

This is great reading and appreciated. However, you continue to say one thing, then back track and say another. Either you have a right to severance pay or you don't. The idea you would get six months severance after working a series of four ten month contracts, well mate, as I say great to read but I seriously doubt it. Have a nice night.

Posted
^Well, actually that is NOT the question that we were discussing in this thread,

Sorry if going off topic. It seems related. I don't see a reply to my other inquiry, which has real life applications:

"Just out of curiosity, have any teachers out there, who know of teachers not being renewed, seen this "non-renewal" put in writing? My experience is it is always an oral notice(or simply not done in some cases without oral or written)."

Since many teaching contracts end at the end of March, and are renewed starting April 1st, for another year, it just makes little sense to me how a teacher could/would wait until he/she wasn't paid for April, start a legal proceeding against a school in May when the school is effectively closed in April, the first week or two in May, show up undocumented in mid-May, etc., and not seek another job with this anticipated solution of severance and VISA and Work Permit ext. demands being met being the alternative. A long sentence and a long road to travel down.

I would assume that they would look for other work while waiting for their legal case to be resolved- I know of more than one teacher who has done so.

There are legal requirements regarding termination of permanent employment; if an employee has worked at a non-temporary position (for example, 3rd grade teacher in a school that has not eliminated the 3rd grade) for a requisite amount of time (to be sure it is not legally classifiable as temporary employement *does* take 2-3 years, I think- at which point it is permanent employment no matter what the contract says), then to terminate the employee for reasons of negligent performance, for example, requires at least one written notice with a period allowed for improvement, according to Thai labour law.

Posted
Also

Again I want to point out that contracts are not allowed to have ending dates, if they are normal business to an company. So a contract can't end on march and begin on may again. Actually it can, but it means you will have a right to severance pay every year. As you worked over 3 months and less then 1 year, so your right is 1 month severance pay.

Which is it? Allowed or not? If contracts are not "allowed" to have ending dates as you suggest, then how do you explain the thousands of same existing, the Work Permits and VISA's extended and funding for the various programs ALL based upon contracts with a start and end date? We have you and your conversations with your lawyer posted on the internet and then we have all of Thailand to base our opinion and decisions on. I think I'll go with what is actually going on and the as I say thousands of actual experiences. And, they are NOT paying severance to teachers not renewed, sending the money to England or Bombay or Manila to meet this legally required condition of "employment".

I think I'll stick with my experience here on the ground rather than mythical, alleged, undocumented 'thousands' of English-speaking teachers - WHO FILED SUIT IN COURT, since you are saying the law did not work - and failed.

If they didn't know and stick up for their rights, that says nothing about the law itself. If they did and failed, there should be plenty of evidence, and you will be able to provide it for us.

But there has been far too much he-said, she-said on this thread, which is turning more into flames and trolling than a reasonable discussion. It is likely to be closed soon.

Posted
About severance pay, severance pay has nothing to do with ending dates in a contract. If you get layed off (contract not renewed) or fired with none of the six reasons in the law, such as theft etc then you have a right to severance pay. So if they give you a contract from may till march = 10 months and do this every year, it effectively means that you will have a right to 1 month severance pay after every contract. As they fire you and rehire you 2 months later.

If you work for a university for 4 years, with contracts from may till march, I think that you can effectively claim that you worked 4 conaequtive years and claim for 6 months severance pay after your last contract, as the judge will immedietally see what scemes the university is using and slam it to the ground.

I have read this being happened to a certain teacher, but I forgot his name and the exact situation, if i remember I will inform you about it.

This is great reading and appreciated. However, you continue to say one thing, then back track and say another. Either you have a right to severance pay or you don't. The idea you would get six months severance after working a series of four ten month contracts, well mate, as I say great to read but I seriously doubt it. Have a nice night.

The first part of my post are written in the Thai Law. And is correct, but I dont think Universities ever give that one month after each contract.

So then we can put in effect the last part is. However as I said, this is merely my opinion

(My opinion, not confirmed yet by a lawyer.)

So if i was a teacher with 5 * 10 months contract and I never received severance pay between them, then I would file a claim. An I think you will win it, there is one post somewhere in this forum confirming that someone claimed that and the judge immedeatelly slammed that reason of the table as he said a teacher is not a temporary job. But again i am not sure who this was anymore.

I went to the Labor court mysyself this tuesday to finalize my own claim (I am not a teacher though) and they are all very helpfull to the employees. Even several what seemed to be Burmese workers were treated very good, contrary to what you see in other places. The whole labor department is there to protect us "The Employees" So always file your claim!

  • 1 month later...
Posted

Hi all,i need some advice on this matter of severence pay.i have an open contract which started on june 2007,in the contract it states that there is a 2 month notice period,on April 2nd 2009 i was informed that my services were not needed,so to date i have been working my notice,today i was informed that i will recieve only 1 month salary which i will recieve at the end of june,and because "quote" i am on an expat contract i am not eligable for the statuary 3 months salary.Also bear in mind that x amount is paid into my local bank and x amount is paid from an offshore acc to my off shore acc.

Posted
Hi all,i need some advice on this matter of severence pay.i have an open contract which started on june 2007,in the contract it states that there is a 2 month notice period,on April 2nd 2009 i was informed that my services were not needed,so to date i have been working my notice,today i was informed that i will recieve only 1 month salary which i will recieve at the end of june,and because "quote" i am on an expat contract i am not eligable for the statuary 3 months salary.Also bear in mind that x amount is paid into my local bank and x amount is paid from an offshore acc to my off shore acc.

as you can read in all the other posts.

foreigners are treated the same as thai's by the law.

so you do have a right to 3 month severance pay, however, payments abroad are also liable to thai income tax. i presume you have never paid this. so even though you will win the case you have a big chance to be reported to the revenue department for with holding income and will have to pay a taxes including a fine!

So either just claim the part paid in thailand or be willing to risk paying the fine and any outstanding taxes.

  • 4 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...
Posted (edited)

Went to Labor Dept. recently with question on severance pay. Appropriate employee there said foreign teachers at government institutions (for example Chulalongkorn or Thammasat Universities and many other such), as well as government--as opposed to private--primary and secondary schools, are NOT entitled to severance pay.

Why? She pointed to Section 4 of the "Labour Protection Act B.E. 2541" (A.D. 1998):

"This Act shall not apply to:

(1) central administration, provincial administration and local administration; and [snip]"

In (1) above, "central administration" (ratchagan suanglang) was the applicable reference.

She also gave as example some of the Thai workers in her office, who were busy doing something at computers and folding brochures. Same law for them.

I claim no expertise or authority here. I'm just reporting what I was told.

I would love to hear of a teacher at a government institution who was given notice after some years dedicated work that his/her contract was not going to be renewed, "Thank you very much for your work and contributions, and goodbye." ... A teacher who filled a position occupied by a similar soul, and which position was being offered anew to yet more similar souls...and who received severance pay.

Does anyone know of someone filing suit in court against a government school or government university, winning the suit and being awarded severance pay as stipulated in the Labor Protection Act?

Edited by paulnewman

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