Why Do People...

[IanForbes]

Why do people feel it is necessary to impose their own personal life style, or beliefs, on others? I see it all the time with religious groups, and those that abhor the so called “sex tourism” trade. Why not just ignore what goes on between consenting adults, and just pay attention to their own life. Isn’t it everyone’s right to live their own life and follow their own beliefs? I know that you can’t always do that in Myanmar, North Korea, parts of China and certain countries in the Middle East, but certainly in so called “free” Thailand an adult should be allowed to follow his or her life style in peace without listening to others make slanderous accusations, or say you are somehow a bad person for not following their personal beliefs.

[john b good]

You ever heard of Jim Jones

[catmac]

Couldn't agree more, Ian.

The lynch mob are only too eager to let fly on TV at the drop of a hat!

[Lobin]

You ever heard of Jim Jones

what has he got to do with this? from what i understand it as, this guy just wants to dip his wick into some things and feels the need for some justification in doing. the justification seeking from anyone on this or ANY forum is absurd. i dont see the need to seek it from anyone, why make waves?

but then thats just my thoughts.

[eek]

Its a tough one really...and I dont think exactly clear cut, (but thats only my opinion).

I agree that people should learn to adapt and not hold on to rigid view-points (or of course in many cases just keep their business out of other peoples business), but at the same time people have a right to express a viewpoint if they have a valid concern. Also, often I dont really think its about what is said so much as how it is said. Places such as an open forum, provides great medium to raise a question, a concern, and open a discussion. Sadly though people often find it hard to discuss or debate a topic rationally (i am not excluding myself here), and it gets out of hand and (virtual) punches are thrown around. But I think the worse offenders are the ones who deliberately bate to get a rise out of others. Then again, more fool us if we fall for it.

We all have different perspectives on the same topic, even if we share some similar thoughts on it. Using your example of "sex tourism", Ian, I would say some people are moralistic and condescending, but some may be concerned if this is really between two consenting adults, which may not always be the case. But, for those that have that concern, attacking an individual wont achieve anything and they should find out more information and ways in which they may be able to "help" in a more productive way. There are lots of reasons why people want to address something, and not all may be negative or judgmental even if they dont agree.

Geez..Im rambling...er anyway..

Basically, If something really is between two consenting adults and its not harming anyone else, then of course people should do as they please!

[ourmaninbangers]

Why do people feel it is necessary to impose their own personal life style, or beliefs, on others? I see it all the time with religious groups, and those that abhor the so called "sex tourism" trade. Why not just ignore what goes on between consenting adults, and just pay attention to their own life. Isn't it everyone's right to live their own life and follow their own beliefs? I know that you can't always do that in Myanmar, North Korea, parts of China and certain countries in the Middle East, but certainly in so called "free" Thailand an adult should be allowed to follow his or her life style in peace without listening to others make slanderous accusations, or say you are somehow a bad person for not following their personal beliefs.

its the way we're designed- a human thing

I do believe that one should follow their own belief's and I therefore ignore many stupid law's on personal consumption of various things and other's.

Most law's are not designed to suit us, but by government's.

In sex tourism many are not really consenting all the time.

Thailand is far, far way from being either an adult or free

Free adult's can question anything-that is not the case here

[WaiWai]

"No man is an island". Of course we pay attention to what others do.

Thailand is far, far way from being either an adult or free

Free adults can question anything-that is not the case here

Correct. Behaviours can be determined by social elites/other power groups as well as governments.

I am curious to know what specific experiences or events in Chiang Mai have caused this question?

I do notice it's quite a mantra amongst foreigners in Thailand, this "land of the free and open-minded" and "never mind what others do". I wonder why !

[IanForbes]

Good points, eek. I have seen it all, from the extremes at either end of the issues. I don't want to turn this into a debate about "sex tourism" because we all know the terrible crap that goes on with children behind somewhat closed doors. I don't know anyone except the perps themselves that would condone that. But we can easily see a lot of adults having a good time in the local bars on Loi Kroh road, or most other bars for that matter. It's only when the establishments are empty that everyone looks glum. I don't see anyone being abused or being forced to be there against their will. And, the part time hookers ARE providing a service for men who might otherwise be lonely, miserable souls. To deny the women from making a choice is denying them the right to their own bodies. It's sort of like the debate about abortion. We should leave that topic alone because it always turns into a polarized slagging match.

I'm also thinking of the moralistic hypocrites that practise their so called great religious beliefs while at the same time condoning what their own priests are doing behind closed doors. I've seen many cases where the Catholic church has moved into countries practising other forms of beliefs and changed it all. But, all they've done is ruin the countries instead of making improvements. The Philippines is a good example, where the poor haven't had any improvements after turning to Catholicism, and yet are basically forced to pump out babies they can't support.

Then we have some of the more radical Moslem beliefs that treat women and children on a par with animals that don't have any rights... even to their own bodies. And, in North America we have the Mormon faith that originally practised poligamy, and where again, the women and children didn't have any rights. Even today we have a problem in Canada with an off shoot of the Mormon faith. It's where the Bountiful church in the Kootenays of BC practises poligamy. There is currently a court case about its legality. Everyone with inside knowledge knows its just a case where the leader can practise pedophiia and get it covered up as a so called marriage.

I've even seen the same self righteous types on the fishing forums I'm involved with. Guys want to set their OWN ethical standards on others, and they get hot under the collar when others don't believe the same. They can't seem to let the authorities decide what is best for everyone.

I've seen some crazy, illogical stuff here in Thailand, that would cause gun fights if it happened in the USA. But, the Thais don't seem to mind. And, if they do, they keep it to themselves. I'm mostly talking about the traffic in this situation, and where people park blocking all forms of passage. Or, the speeds that some of the motorcyclists fly along at through busy, narrow sois. But, many of the frustrating things are also a part of Thailand's beauty.

[WaiWai]

Ian, I recommend you do an internet search for research on the long-term effects of certain "consenting adult activities" as well as links between engagement in such activities and rates of childhood abuse, drug abuse, venereal disease and HIV.

So far as possible, "consent" should be informed consent, in my view.

I don't know too much about fishing ethics.

I've seen some crazy, illogical stuff here in Thailand, that would cause gun fights if it happened in the USA. But, the Thais don't seem to mind. And, if they do, they keep it to themselves.

Read the News Forum. Especially the Pattaya one.

[eek]

Hi Ian.

The things you brought up are not easy for me to get my head around. Not new to me, but still too big for me.

I know im lucky based on where I was born. Ive had terrible things happen in my life, and joyous things, but for the most part I have always had choices and opportunities that I could never have had if i were born in a 3rd world or developing country.

I choose to live in Thailand, and I love it, but of course im having an easier time in my daily life than many native born Thai. Plus, I still have opportunity and choices, whereas many here do not. (Btw, im not hinting at the sex-tourism part, im talking in general).

Its hard to know sometimes when to choose to say or do something and when to hold your tongue. When is it meddling in others affairs and when is it coming to anothers aid? Sometimes action is needed (or just words). So often we can sit back and think "mai pen rai" because we have the luxury to do so, and arent really opening our eyes.

For me, i dont really mind 'do-gooders', although sometimes good will is misplaced and may cause more damage than good. At least the thought behind it is the wish to do something positive. I mind the people who dish out advice (especially if preacherly) without seemingly thinking about it or (if applicable) taking any action. They sit back and say that this-or-that should happen, or this-or-that should change, or blah blah, but dont actually take any active steps towards doing anything about it themselves.

As for me, i see many things in the world that concern me, but most issues are too big for me as an individual. What I can do is try to be generally informed in the majority of problems around the globe. Then, if I feel there is something I am particularly concerned about and might be able to help in some way, I try to gain as much information as possible, from all sides, in order to try see things from a well-rounded viewpoint. Only then can i feel confident in my own voice on the subject and in my choice about whether or not to be pro-active.

Well..now i really AM rambling...what was the topic again?!

Edited February 4, 2009 by eek

[Tywais]

Since this is not a Chiangmai specific topic will move it to General where I'm sure it will get some "interesting" responses.

[IanForbes]

Since this is not a Chiangmai specific topic will move it to General where I'm sure it will get some "interesting" responses.

Thanks. I didn't realize there WAS a separate forum for these type of discussions. I'm just new to the forum and slowly finding my way around. I was put onto this forum by a local friend when I asked where to watch the Superbowl. Fortunately, somebody had already posted the topic and someone told us where the game was being played live.

And, thanks to eek for an adult and thoughtful response to my topic. I agree with him. Our North American cultures (I'm Canadian) are very dissimilar to the Asian cultures, and although I've been coming to Thailand for over 12 years, and basically spend my winters here, I am still learning about the heirarchy of the Thai people.

It is easy to be judgemental when you don't have money worries, or are living under a completely different family oriented culture. People just do things differently here than back home. Thai people are far more reserved and would seldom respond to a topic like this one. If they disapprove of something they usually keep it to themselves... or make jokes about it.

[JohnJackson]

Why do people feel it is necessary to impose their own personal life style, or beliefs, on others? I see it all the time with religious groups, and those that abhor the so called "sex tourism" trade. Why not just ignore what goes on between consenting adults, and just pay attention to their own life. Isn't it everyone's right to live their own life and follow their own beliefs? I know that you can't always do that in Myanmar, North Korea, parts of China and certain countries in the Middle East, but certainly in so called "free" Thailand an adult should be allowed to follow his or her life style in peace without listening to others make slanderous accusations, or say you are somehow a bad person for not following their personal beliefs.

its the way we're designed- a human thing (NO its not)

I do believe that one should follow their own belief's and I therefore ignore many stupid law's on personal consumption of various things and other's.

Most law's are not designed to suit us, but by government's.

In sex tourism many are not really consenting all the time. (You are wrong)

Thailand is far, far way from being either an adult or free (Wrong again)

Free adult's can question anything-that is not the case here (Yet again)

Blimey.............and you live here mate?

[eek]

Since this is not a Chiangmai specific topic will move it to General where I'm sure it will get some "interesting" responses.

Thanks. I didn't realize there WAS a separate forum for these type of discussions. I'm just new to the forum and slowly finding my way around. I was put onto this forum by a local friend when I asked where to watch the Superbowl. Fortunately, somebody had already posted the topic and someone told us where the game was being played live.

And, thanks to eek for an adult and thoughtful response to my topic. I agree with him (her ). Our North American cultures (I'm Canadian) (and most European..Im a Scot ) are very dissimilar to the Asian cultures, and although I've been coming to Thailand for over 12 years, and basically spend my winters here, I am still learning about the heirarchy of the Thai people.

It is easy to be judgemental when you don't have money worries, or are living under a completely different family oriented culture. People just do things differently here than back home. Thai people are far more reserved and would seldom respond to a topic like this one. If they disapprove of something they usually keep it to themselves... or make jokes about it. < dont entirely agree with this..i think Thai just respond in a different way to the west, but definitely do show their disapproval at least by means of body language if not verbally. As for my bf, he offers his opinion freely about things he dislikes, but does so with consideration and doesnt go on and on about it. Not that all westerners do go on and on, but most often I find westerners usually talk in a lot more detail about something they are not happy about.

Welcome to ThaiVisa. Have fun finding your way around.

edited to make what i wrote clearer

Edited February 4, 2009 by eek

[geriatrickid]

If you aren't doing anything "wrong" and only you know that, then what do you care?

[IanForbes]

If you aren't doing anything "wrong" and only you know that, then what do you care?

I don't really. In fact I like a good controversial subject to debate. And, I'll take either side in a debate just for the fun of it. But, it has always amazed me why some people want to pull others down to their own miserable level, and they will make up all sorts of crap just to do so. I've seen it in families and I've seen it just about everywhere I've been. I don't pass judgement on anyone until I know ALL the facts. But, a lot of people seem to want to learn about the worst of everyone and will go to any lengths to find it. It happens with news journalists all the time when reporting on some celebrity. It certainly happens in politics. It happened most recently with the scum bag who photographed and reported Michael Phelps for smoking pot. Just what kind of a low life would do that to some guy who was a national hero for winning 8 gold medals?

[IanForbes]

Ian, I recommend you do an internet search for research on the long-term effects of certain "consenting adult activities" as well as links between engagement in such activities and rates of childhood abuse, drug abuse, venereal disease and HIV.

So far as possible, "consent" should be informed consent, in my view.

I don't know too much about fishing ethics.

I've seen some crazy, illogical stuff here in Thailand, that would cause gun fights if it happened in the USA. But, the Thais don't seem to mind. And, if they do, they keep it to themselves.

Read the News Forum. Especially the Pattaya one.

I have a time share in Jomptien and visit Pattaya once a year for a week with my golfing buddies. I am quite aware what goes on in Pattaya. I'll have to check out the Thaivisa forum on it, but I doubt if I will learn a lot new about the place. Pattaya is unique for being just about the only place on earth like it. Angeles City in the Philippines is a poor comparison.

As far as the long term effects of the bar girls life goes, I know it can be a problem for them. They aren't wanted by the local Thai men and there aren't enough falong expats to marry all of them. I've had a lot of very frank, and long discussions with many of the gals, and know where they are coming from. I understand that many have had abuse elsewhere and that is why they are working in the bars. Most have a child by some Thai guy who split as soon as he found out the girl was pregnant. Most are uneducated, or only have a limited education, and don't have a lot of viable options that will pay the same as working in a bar.

The drug abuse, venereal disease and HIV is not evident in any place I've ever visited, and neither me personally nor any of my friends know anyone in Thailand who has those problems. But, I'm far from being an expert on the subject and I'll bow to anyone who does. From what I've heard it is prevalent in places that the Thai army visits and some of the cheaper slum holes in the country.

And, I will say again that the Thai mafia that runs most, if not all of the creepy stuff, apalls me. They run children to Thai brothels, put the cripples in the street to beg, and run just about anything that is shady. And, they seem to get away with impunity from the law.

[Tywais]

The topic is beginning to overstep the forum rules, specifically this one:

"1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, referencing prostitution (including bargirls and barboys), referencing suicide, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of the Thai Court of Law."

Just a reminder to keep the rules in mind when posting.

[adjan jb]

Just what kind of a low life would do that to some guy who was a national hero for winning 8 gold medals?

Not a low life, just a guy trying to make a living in a wild world. As a paparazzi, he is useless (who needs to see Spears' genitals or Travolta's new plane?) but we are millions to have useless jobs. Life on the planet could be as sweet, if not better, without our own little so-called expertise (whether we sell 4 insurance policies to the same family, fat burgers to obese customers, red, black and silver mobile phones to silly teenagers or dig oil and plunder the earth). Blame it on .... well, us. This is our civilization.

[adjan jb]

an adult should be allowed to follow his or her life style in peace without listening to others make slanderous accusations, or say you are somehow a bad person for not following their own beliefs[/font]

Freedom of the individual is limited by the freedom of others ??

[edgarfriendly]

Just what kind of a low life would do that??

My mum would, she got my kid sister arrested for possesing weed which her dad sold to her.

in and from the house we all live(d) in.

some kids do ave em.

ef

[Lix]

No young girl ever dreams as a child of growing up and working as a prostitute. Imagine going to bed every night with someone you do not find attractive, stinks of beer, slobbers all over you and makes you feel like your only purpose in life is make men climax for £20 a pop. A filthy westerner’s sexual fantasy is not something any Thai girl chooses to become.

Next time you see a beautiful Thai baby girl with her parents stumbling along after just learning her first steps, and you think awww isn’t she adorable; stop and think for a moment that all those girls in the bars were like her once. Full of innocence with the world at their feet. Poverty dictates these girls’ lives and to take advantage of poor people to carry out your own selfish sexual fantasies is sick. Somebody has already clarified the reasons why these girls have to do what they do so I will not go over that again.

Please do not ask me to let you live your life without comment if you are partaking in this selfish and inhumane activity.

All ladies dream of being respected by a man who truly loves them and who they truly love, not going to bed feeling like they have been raped every night.

I long for the day when Thailand has a social care system that takes care of the poor, provides child support, day care etc. And has a decent minimum wage with enough jobs to go around. Sometimes i see a sexpat all over a young women who just looks completely violated and like she wants to run but needs the money, i want to go up to him, beat him to a pulp , take his money and give it to her for her to walk away without having to do the deed.

sleep well

cheers

[canadianmonkey]

We are free to put abusers and those sad lonely souls that you talk about into a basket that we call 'losers'

Who are you to deny us this freedom?

[IanForbes]

No young girl ever dreams as a child of growing up and working as a prostitute.

And no young man dreams that the lovely gal he marries is going to sleep with his best friend and leave him. And, then have her demand that he pays her alimony and gives her the home that he paid for while she was out messing around with someone else. There are extremes at both ends of the scale. A lot of what you say I agree with, but I also know the exceptions... of which there are many. I know several expats who are happily married to ex-bar girls. I know MANY falongs who pay support for women and their families in Thailand... for no other reason than the goodness of the guy's heart. The bar patrons are not all slobbering louts that many people like to portray them to be. They are out for a good time with women who seem to enjoy their company. It's hard to fake the laughter I hear. At the Thai bars and restaurants that I frequent the gals who work there only go with men that they choose, and not just any old lout.

And, I don't see a lot of difference between women who marry for positions of power or wealth and the prostitutes trying to earn an honest dollar. There are shades of grey in every situation.

But, as I said at the start, I didn't want this to be a topic on prostitution, which can have very polarized and negative comments. I was just asking why some people like bringing others down to their own miserable level all the time. On many forums I frequent (mostly fishing forums) there are a group of people who ONLY seem to reply in a negative manner, no matter what the topic. I've never seen them start a topic on their own that wasn't negative in some way.

My own personal interest is in helping others. I get satisfaction from doing so and that is all the pleasure I need. I'm an outdoor writer and considered to be an expert in my field. I get lots of requests for information that I'm always willing to share, but there are always people who make snide comments about it. Although I live in Chiang Mai, I support a Thai family in Kanchanaburi in hopes that the 3 children will have a better life than their mother. So far it seems to be working. I've sponsored a couple of young girls get a better education in the hopes that they won't have to sell flowers in bars like their parents do. You can't save everyone, but if you can help a few then that is better than nothing. I'm no saint and have never played at being one. My life is an open book and have nothing to be ashamed of, but I enjoy debating any topic so long as people remain reasonable.

[Ijustwannateach]

As few if any of the posts on this thread have NOT mentioned prostitution, I am now closing it in keeping with the rules.