'Ruling out the foreigner'

[JT65]

He went to Mae Sai today; he went to make his regular visit for a stamp. He also wanted o do a walk over to buy a few bits and pieces, he was refused by immigration. He was told yes you can go, but you must pay 1000 Baht visa fee. Then when you return, you will be classified as a normal tourist. That means you must start all your extension procedure again. He inquired about other travelers; he was informed all walk over must now pay the 1000 Baht visa fee.

This does not make any sense.  If it is true then they are changing the rules again to say that Burma is not an acceptable country to exit and re enter from. Never heard of the 1000 bht fee before.  I certainly hope this is not true. If it is then it seems to me the people who say we are not welcome here are on the ball.

JT

[DaveYo]

Hi all, been watching these threads.  Sigh, this is only the beginning of what is yet to come.  And true, if they eliminate those 1 year visas, yep they will close a major loophole thus tightening up the belt of available options.  One mention of the bribe of a 1,000 baht, and loss of visa!

:blues:

[DaveYo]

The scary part is when they start making us show what we have income wise, to me that is infringement on our privacy.  So what if a person is able to grow their own food and live off the land, and spend little, they want to pry into our personal stuff especially our money.  The more they see the more their eyes glitter!, and you can hear the slurping sucking sounds of saliva.  This shows their utter typical greed.

:blues:

[ChiangMaiThai]

Those of you with Thai partners need only ask your spouse how many people they hear of who are duped into dubious marriages of convenience, (pretend marriages to foreigners of EVERY description) or how many Burmese, Bangladeshi, Indian, Kampuchean there are living and working in their home districts illegally.

Fair enough. If you are from a country that makes Thailand look like Beverly Hills, then you should go through a more strict interview process to make sure your being here will not be a burden to the country and will actually benefit it.

[pavina]

1000 bath fee Mae Sai border is that for folks

only with 30 days stamp? What about touristvisa.

non imm. 1year visa? Lets get facts.What did that

person refused entri whitout paying 1000 bath did

he only had a stamp. Please when you wanna tell

us something say all and not only the half

Thank you all

[ChiangMaiThai]

Hey Guys N’ Gals a new twist on this subject, my friend a retired man farang living in Thailand for the last 20 years. He went to Mae Sai today; he went to make his regular visit for a stamp. He also wanted o do a walk over to buy a few bits and pieces, he was refused by immigration. He was told yes you can go, but you must pay 1000 Baht visa fee. Then when you return, you will be classified as a normal tourist. That means you must start all your extension procedure again. He inquired about other travelers; he was informed all walk over must now pay the 1000 Baht visa fee.

What does this mean, even people with 12+3 non O must pay this fee?

It seems we are not so well informed after all this talk, I wonder can anyone tell us the full facts.

???

I have been hearing similar stories. I have heard a fee of 1600 baht to walk over and walk back at Mae Sai. So does this mean there is now a fee for the 30 dayn o visa stay? Did someone forget to tell us this? I will find out for myself shortly... If I was immigration i would do the same thing. Its an obvious money maker. Thousands of farangs crossing into Mae Sai on a one day visa-no choice but to come back. So collect 1000 baht a head. Someone's getting a new Mercedes.

[pavina]

all this new rules and talking about ruling out

falangs isn't thust a matter of money Remember

the crackdown on visa runs through agents. They

found a lot of passports whitout owner. Now they

take bribes directly coz they need this money,

don't you think so?

thanks

[JT65]

A little sideline

I spoke to one of my Thai Suppliers today who I purchase a considerable amount of goods from to export to my business outside Thailand.  He asked me if I had heard of the new rules. I was surprised he brought it up. I said I had and was concerned about them. He then enthusiastically informed me that Thailand no longer wanted foreigners in their land, now that they had finished their IMF debt. I then asked him if he thought it would effect his business as it all export. He said no , not at all, that someone like me should keep buying Thai products but just not stay here long. Basically just come buy product and leave. I then said well I buy so much I need to be here to check all the time. His reply was interesting, he said the Thai Governments attitude (just his opinion) was that Thai people ( I guess agents ) should take care of this for the foreigner as it creates another job and more income for Thailand. Not sure if he knows just how bad agents are here for that type of thing. You ask for 10 tables and your container would arrive with 10 bags of bricks.

Anyway I then asked about the tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of Thai's living in my country who dont bring money in to the country but actually send it out back to Thailand.  He just laughed and said that your problem.

The Thai mind never ceases to amaze me.

[ChiangMaiThai]

A little sideline

I spoke to one of my Thai Suppliers today who I purchase a considerable amount of goods from to export to my business outside Thailand.  He asked me if I had heard of the new rules. I was surprised he brought it up. I said I had and was concerned about them. He then enthusiastically informed me that Thailand no longer wanted foreigners in their land, now that they had finished their IMF debt. I then asked him if he thought it would effect his business as it all export. He said no , not at all, that someone like me should keep buying Thai products but just not stay here long. Basically just come buy product and leave. I then said well I buy so much I need to be here to check all the time. His reply was interesting, he said the Thai Governments attitude (just his opinion) was that Thai people ( I guess agents ) should take care of this for the foreigner as it creates another job and more income for Thailand. Not sure if he knows just how bad agents are here for that type of thing. You ask for 10 tables and your container would arrive with 10 bags of bricks.

Anyway I then asked about the tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of Thai's living in my country who dont bring money in to the country but actually send it out back to Thailand.  He just laughed and said that your problem.

The Thai mind never ceases to amaze me.

Since this came directly from a Thai, perhaps we should pay more attention to it than we do from the opinions of members on this board, inclusing myself. Interesting point about the government believeing Thai agents should do the buying for exporters. As you said, I'm sure they have never actually been really involved in the industry.

I think its too soon to say if we are really no longer welcome here for long periods at a time. i think when non-im visas are no longer issued at 'friendly' consulates abroad, we can be pretty sure that our time is up.

I say this half sarcastically, but let's hope that bubble bursts and the IMF is called back in!

[Axel]

Apologies for adding below. Before having done so I re-read the TOS. Believe this should be posted and perhaps the one or other member can respond. I was shocked reading this in today's (9/9/03) NATION - letters

Anybody knows this English(?) gentleman (???)

quote

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/page.ne....rsess=1

Tougher visa rules will only hurt the brainless

The idea that raised visa fees will cause some sort of brain drain amongst farang teachers of Thailand is likely to raise some hysterical laughter. Did they have one to start with?

From my experiences and acquaintances a fair number are comprised of a good selection of uneducated and illiterate swine that are practically unemployable back home.

Their long-term commitment to Bangkok’s bar life and bar girls requires them to work as lowly paid teachers as it is their only means to remain and survive in Bangkok and avail themselves of Bangkok’s nightlife on a long-term basis.

Eric Gibbs

London

UNQUOTE

[marty]

(Non-Immigrant O-A Visas for) A foreigner wants to stay until the end of their life.

1(a). A foreigner who entered the Kingdom before October 21st, 1998 must be under 60 years of age and must have regular income of not less than 20,000b per month and savings of not less than 200,000b and must submit a bank book with at least 3 months record of savings.

1(. If the applicant is under 60 but not under 55 they must have regular income of not less than 50,000b per month and savings of not less than 500,000b and submit a bank book with at least 3 months records.

Evidence of income (eg pensions) and evidence of the necessity to stay here permanently must be submitted.

1©. In cases where the applicant has only savings, they will be interrogated as to their situation once the savings are finished, how other income will be received and from where. Movement of funds in the bank account will be inspected and evidence must be shown that money is transferred through the bank regularly.

2. A foreigner who entered the Kingdom after October 21st 1998, aged 55 years or over must have the same financial evidence, also 800,000b in the bank, an income of not less than 65,000b per month or income and savings together of not less than 800,000b. A letter from a Thai bank must certify this and a letter from the foreigner’s Embassy or Consulate must confirm the monthly income. Evidence must be shown of the need to stay permanently. Not more than one year each application is allowed.

3. A foreigner who entered the Kingdom since 15th November 2001 and who is 50 years or older must have income as follows: not less than 65,000b per month, at least 800,000b in the bank or income and savings together of that amount. Evidence from a Thai bank and Embassy or Consulate as above, (evidence of) the need to stay permanently as above, also a doctor’s certificate to say that the foreigner does not have any infectious disease according to the Health Ministry details issued on November 14th 1992. Examples include TB, malaria, elephantisis.

Observations/Questions:

1. The numbering above is my own.

2. I was not aware of 1( above. Is this new?

3. Does the age of the foreigner specified above refer to the foreigner’s age on date of entering the Kingdom, or to their age when applying for a visa?

 

4. The draft regulation appears to be the first indication that the “grandfather” principle will continue to be applied when applying for visa extensions after July 2004 (provided that evidence of the necessity to stay permanently is submitted and accepted).

Is that a reasonable interpretation of the content?

5. When new rules were initiated with effect from November 2001, the following mitigating circumstances were included for applicants who wished to retire here:

“If the alien is ill, or has weak health and is sensitive to colder climates or has resided in Thailand for a long period, and is 55-59 years old, special circumstances may be given. The applicant must also submit medical certificates and proof that he/she lived in Thailand for a long time. For info: Tel: (02) 287-3905 or 287-3101-10 (ext 2259-61).”

Does anyone know whether these allowances were made solely for persons who could not fully satisfy the financial requirements? If so, in light of the Colonel’s statement below. could it not help some expats concerned about their financial status?:

“If there are special circumstances, such as the foreigner cannot comply and the Thai national cannot return to the foreigner’s own country with them, they can supply evidence to be considered.”

6. Is it likely that a medical certificate attesting to one or more of the above conditions could serve as evidence of the need to stay permanently after July 2004?

At one time a letter from the applicant’s embassy was required, saying you wished to retire in Thailand. An embassy letter to that effect, supported by a medical certificate, could possibly satisfy Immigration?

7. Granting of Permanent Residence Permits to applicants classed as retirees was discontinued after the November 2001 rules were introduced. Since then, anyone over the age of 50 must apply for a Non-Immigrant O-A visa annually - and, as from July 2004, comply with the proposed criteria for “A foreigner (who) wants to stay until the end of their life”.

8. Foreign businessmen

There does not seem to be much comment from expats on the proposals quoted below in blue:

Apart from the statement that the business “must be important and useful to the Thai economy and people”, the added subjective requirement that they be “highly invested”  must be of concern to those running small businesses such as restaurants, guest houses, house building/renovations, Internet cafes, computer sales/repair shops, etc.

These “natural persons”, who fall under Division 2 of the Revenue Code, pay personal tax on income from their businesses, as distinct from income tax paid by juristic companies and partnerships falling under Division 3 of the Code.

The proposals for a “Group A” company mentions a “Juristic person”, which the Revenue Code defines as follows:

”Juristic person means a juristic company or partnership under Section 39, a governmental organization under Section 2, a co-operative and any other entity designated by law as a juristic person.”

Excerpts from the proposals:

“To do business in Thailand, the business must be important and useful to the Thai economy and people, and be highly invested. The foreigners must be executives or experts at what they do. The officer will consider the security of the business, its capital and tax payments and Labour Ministry requirements. Reasons to run the business must be given.”

“Evidence required is as follows.

Group A

The foreigner must provide complete evidence to the officer that, as a Juristic person, investment of not less than 30 million baht is registered, or the business is based on international law such as international trading, a regional office or national company.”

If I have missed any comments which have already addressed any of the above questions, please point me to them.

[Axel]

8. Foreign businessmen

There does not seem to be much comment from expats on the proposals quoted below in blue:

........

If I have missed any comments which have already addressed any of the above questions, please point me to them.

No, I neither saw any comments. Obviously the items referred to concern foreign companies capitalized at Baht 30 million.

Off hand I would say only BOI-invested companies would have this kind of capital where different rules should apply.

Actually, I never came across any foreigner running the business directly, but would be interesting to learn about.

Alternative is a Thai Ltd-company at minimum capital of Baht 2 million where foreigners can hold 49 % of the shares but an individual foreigner not more than 33%. Such company can hire a foreigner, e.g. the one holding 33%. Subsequently the recently mentioned minimum salaries apply etc.

[heychay]

just wondering:

"A foreigner who entered the Kingdom before October 21st, 1998...."

Does anyone know if this means entered on a non-imm B, entered as a tourist, entered and have never left? If you entered before this date but later left and returned, which date counts? Do you think they have even thought this out?

[mrvietnam2001]

So invest, er I mean give the thai's 30 million......I mean doesn't EVERY falang have 30 mil floating around??  

Mr Vietnam

[lopburi3]

just wondering:

"A foreigner who entered the Kingdom before October 21st, 1998...."

Does anyone know if this means entered on a non-imm B, entered as a tourist, entered and have never left? If you entered before this date but later left and returned, which date counts? Do you think they have even thought this out?

Para one is nothing more than a rehash of the rules then in effect for those who were grandfathered.  Persons here under the old laws with a retirement extension of stay continue under those old rules/requirements.

[GlenTuk]

So invest, er I mean give the thai's 30 million......I mean doesn't EVERY falang have 30 mil floating around??  

Mr Vietnam

err let me just check my wallet...umm, yii sip baht ! DOooooh  

[george]

The new rules are now confirmed by Immigration in Bangkok:

One-year stay financial threshold to double

[plachon]

Cheers George for this confirmation. Yeah, sure right, the ONLY reason I married my wife was so I could cut down those visa runs from 4 to one per year and feel less of a disease- ridden, unwashed criminal in this .beautiful country.

[DaveYo]

ChiangMaiThai, you are so correct about the thinking from most Thais, and remember this particular one is of the general public, not the top, and trust me the top brass that also makes these new rules also think of the same.  If they didn't we wouldn't be getting slammed so hard.

I also agree that Thailand is soon going to be hit hard financially, and the government will have a major crisis soon.  The question is when and how soon.   Now whether they will be forced to seek the IMF again remains uncertain.  If this bubble bursts within the next two years, and if the IMF steps in again, hopefully part of the deal is that the IMF will force the Thai Government to quash these new rules concerning especially income requirements to re-stimulate the Thai economy.

If you like, I hate to say it but the IMF is our only hope because they have that power to force any Government to comply before and during the loan phase.

They speak of Tourism, but folks keep in mind the only reason they get these tourists is because of thailands rep of being the sex capital of the world.  I have to say most of their tourist sites concerning of temples and its objects surrounding the sites and of all the gold put in there makes people curious and they come to see it.  Overall I don't think there is that much anything else worth for the tourist's time to be seeing.  Why waste my time going to Pattaya, or to Phuket?  Beach?  Big deal.

I also suspect the Thai Government is trying to re-coup the money lost to the IMF these past few years and trying to play catch up ball.  In the meantime yes Tourists will begin to drop because of the new rules, and many long termers will sadly be departing Thailand including Business investors, thus hitting them in the pocketbooks revenue wise.

Retired people, this may and might become a thing of the past.  No smart retired person will even want to try to meet the new rules, much less be able to meet it income wise.  This is impossible.  The single people obviously need to debate because of the regulations and financial requirements  are extremely high, so one needs to look at the whole picture for long term.  Can they sustain its brutal impact?  As of those married to the Thai, and have invested in homes and properties, we have a serious financial crisis looming if the rates continue to go up, thus forcing us to leave eventually and if lucky enough to sell out and break even.

So ask yourselves and answer your own question: "What good reason can you give to the Thailand Government for wanting to stay long term and that your stay benefits the Thai Government"?

All this is My opinion, and soon this is what is going to happen.  Anyone is free to comment here.

:blues:

[mrentoul]

ChiangMaiThai, you are so correct about the thinking from most Thais, and remember this particular one is of the general public, not the top, and trust me the top brass that also makes these new rules also think of the same.  If they didn't we wouldn't be getting slammed so hard.

Dave, I can think of no greater pain in the butt on this board than you. Your posts spew intolerance and contempt. If you don't like it here, or if you don't like Thais, why don't you leave. This is not your land.

[ChiangMaiThai]

ChiangMaiThai, you are so correct about the thinking from most Thais, and remember this particular one is of the general public, not the top, and trust me the top brass that also makes these new rules also think of the same.  If they didn't we wouldn't be getting slammed so hard.

Dave, I can think of no greater pain in the butt on this board than you. Your posts spew intolerance and contempt. If you don't like it here, or if you don't like Thais, why don't you leave. This is not your land.

mrentoul, come off your high horse. If a foreigner is married to a Thai, they have a right to complain about these new rules. You are free to voice your opinion and Dave is free to voice his. I find it amusing that all those members who are executives with multinationals, lawyers, owners of companies etc. show no sympathy towards the plight of others on this board who have not chosen the same life path. In fact, it seems that you and others seem to look down on these 'non-complients'. Could it be that you somehow feel threatened by the lifestyles of others which are very different from your own? If not, then show a little support. Obviously, those of us complaining love Thailand. Otherwise, we wouldn't give a <deleted>#k. We'd just go 'loiter' in another SE Asian country. Our problem is with this latest attitude towards foreigners coming from a few top people in the government. I agree with you. This is not our land. But, especially if you are married to a Thai and even if you are not, this being a free country, of course you have the right to voice your disgust with unfair rules.

[Marcel]

Off course! We all like to have the must high-educated foreigners. We all like only to "import" best professionals. But this is not the reality. From Thailand we never "import" good professionals! Most of the Thais they are coming in my country (Switzerland) are very low (or not) educated. They have no chance to work in higher positions. Must of them speak no English and of course no German. I'm not looking down on the girls who working in go go-bars, cabarets or massage-saloon. We NEED this culture in Switzerland. Low educated peoples have also right of living!

I'm little bit angry on this stupid discussion, because I like to immigrate to Thailand in couple of years.

Marcel

[KenUdon]

Dave, I can think of no greater pain in the butt on this board than you. Your posts spew intolerance and contempt. If you don't like it here, or if you don't like Thais, why don't you leave. This is not your land.

mrentoul

Have you been taking lessons from Dr PP? That seems to be all you can both think of to say to anyone who "dares" to express their concerns and worries, and cast Thailand in anything but glowing terms.

[opalhort]

Hi,

this is my first post. I am very worried about the change of the immigration rules.

400K savings is Ok but 40K a month is impossible (it'll drive our Co into the red - hence - make me lose my workpermit).

my last visa records are: arrival May 1998 since then one year renewals with workpermit and Thai wife; immigration never asked for income or savings, only the labour department demanded a minimum income tax payment of B18,000.- per year for workpermit renewal!

The Immigration department never gave me any problems. All they wanted to see was: passport, copy of marriage certificate, copy of workpermit, copy of birth certificate of our son (now 9years old) and ID and houseregistration of my wife.

I've been in Thailand (permanently since 1984) with one year visas and workpermits (on and off) and visa-runs.

I just hope that things will work out for us under the new rules. If not I'd rather stay in Thailand, which is my home, in the form of ashes in an urn in order to be close to my loved ones.

Here is an article which was published in 2000 in a magazine in the US about us and our Co. This may give you an idea why I am not willing to be kicked out of Thailand:

Our history

Rainer  

[mrentoul]

Have you been taking lessons from Dr PP?

That's funny. I think he hates my guts.

fact, it seems that you and others seem to look down on these 'non-complients'. Could it be that you somehow feel threatened by the lifestyles of others which are very different from your own?

Quite possibly. I do look down on non-complaints, and I may occasionally feel threatened.

40K a month is impossible

Ths is not a huge amount of money. It seems the government wants a clean-out. That's tough for those who can't make the grade, and everything seems brutal and arbitrary, but look at it like this - the limit could be even higher.

From the water-lilly story, which I liked very much:

For a foreigner it is very difficult to find employment here in Thailand. Here it is the exact opposite as Germany; the Thai people are very open minded, no anti-foreigner sentiment whatsoever but the laws and regulations are very much designed to keep foreigners out of Thailand.

Funny how both things can co-exist at the same time: how Thais can be open-minded towards foreigners, yet apparently not want them here.

[parryhandy]

opalhort.

id just like to say what a wonderful read that was and i sincerely hope things turn out ok for you.

[Nam Kao]

>>>>the limit could be even higher.

 Yes like next year, when will it end?

[mrvietnam2001]

opalhort, that's a great story and my wife and I would like to wish you the best of luck to continue all your dreams.

I'm contacting Kit to see what can be done in also the upper region 10 in the US ( Florida) as we just bought an additional 1/3 acre of virgin forest that's attached to our house and would like to do something with these water lillies and other water farming if possible. If you can help us do this, please private email me and we would like to take some guidance from you.

Regards

Mr and Mrs Vietnam  

[DaveYo]

I understand some of you dislike me for what I write here, and I am not here to put people down.  I do seem to notice that we are sort of putting down one another here and or cutting each other apart because of our comments or disagreements.  On each of our comments we should see if there can possibly be a solution here and there.

Instead we should all band together to come up with the right answers and solutions in putting all our minds into one focus to help each other solve our situations and or problems, and find any loopholes in the regulations here, so that we can comply with the government of Thailand and stand tall to them and be proud of ourselves.

Isn't this what the purpose of this forum about?

[KenUdon]

Ths is not a huge amount of money. It seems the government wants a clean-out. That's tough for those who can't make the grade, and everything seems brutal and arbitrary, but look at it like this - the limit could be even higher.

mrentoul

40k in Thailand IS a large amount of money every month. I am lucky that I have 40k a month, but it is easily possible to live on HALF that amount here. THAT is why many farangs come here in the first place, marry get a house, kids, etc, but now that it is confirmed that the amounts are to double, it would be impossible to save up the required amounts from a limited income. These people are in an incredible dilemna, and could do with less harsh words, and a little more of a sympathetic hearing, and maybe even some constructive help.

That's funny. I think he hates my guts

He hates EVERYBODYS guts!