Secret Mass Grave For Tourists

[Wanraya]

Secret mass grave for tourists

By Daniel McGrory

Our correspondent discovers a burial site for 10,000 bodies near a Buddhist temple in Thailand

Bodies of children and adults share a grave in Thailand. They were buried with no ceremony (PETER NICHOLLS)

THE bodies of British and other Western tourists are being secretly buried in vast mass graves in an open field close to a busy road.

Families still searching for missing relatives were not told of the decision to dispose hastily of hundreds of unidentified victims yesterday with no ceremony or memorial in a mass burial site on scrubland owned by a nearby Buddhist temple.

Local Red Cross officials told The Times that they were ordered to prepare a site for 10,000 bodies, far more than the Thai Government says were killed by the tsunami, raising doubts that a true count of victims will ever be known.

Grieving relatives of all nationalities are banned from visiting this sprawling site, which is hidden behind a line of banyan trees near the end of an unmarked lane at Bang Muang, 80 miles north of Phuket.

As bodies wrapped in plastic sheets were carried in the bucket of a mechanical digger to the edge of open trenches, Weiapol Pitcun, a Thai official, said: “This may look insensitive but what else can we do? There are too many for us to cope with, so this is the most efficient way to store the bodies.”

Mr Pitcun said that the authorities would deter visits by relatives to prevent the site from becoming a place of pilgrimage. “Families should not come here, it will only upset them,” he said. “Tell them there is not anything worthwhile to see.”

The slow pace of identification, the red tape and now this tactless method of dealing with the remains is certain to compound the grief of relatives who arrive on every flight to Thailand, determined not to leave until they have found what they came for.

Even if they discover this place and evade the security cordon there is nothing on the long line of stakes stuck in mounds of earth to identify the gender, the race or the age of those buried here.

From first light, construction teams had worked to gouge out 20 trenches, each more than 150 yards long.

Armed police deterred local onlookers from investigating what was happening in this rural backwater near the Yanyoa Buddhist temple in Phangnga province, home to some of Thailand’s favourite resorts, and the worst-hit region in this disaster.

Twenty yards from where weary teenage volunteers clad in white forensic science suits and orange rubber gloves were laying bodies side by side in shallow pits, there were half a dozen funeral pyres burning throughout the day as Thai victims, identified by their families, were cremated in the open air.

With a shortage of fuel, workers threw bicycle inner tubes and car tyres on top of the flimsy, white plywood coffins to make them burn faster. Columns of acrid smoke carried on the sea breeze drifted across the country lane briefly obliterating the sight of the open graves.

Monks from the temple occasionally appeared to say prayers over the funeral pyres but paid no attention to the procession of burials across the narrow lane. Shopowners less than a mile away were astounded to be told that Thailand’s most miserable landmark was on their doorstep.

At one stage the volunteer undertakers were seen carrying a number of what from their size were obviously very young children to the open pit.

Thai officials insist that the tsunami victims are not being dumped here and forgotten. Mr Pitcun demonstrated how each body is given a serial number. He untied one body bag, and slipped the first copy of this tag number in a sealed plastic envelope under the decaying T-shirt of a man. A second tag is then attached to the outside of each body bag, and the final label is tied to a stake in the ground.

[astral]

There is no secret about the temple, it was reported in the Bangkok Post, Tuesday 4th Jan!!

They have to store the bodies somewhere!!

[LivinLOS]

However there is a certain discrepancy in the numbers...

People working in the situation are stating 10 - 20k dead in regions.. This appears to be 10k bodies on one site yet Thailands official numbers are much much lower.

[kat]

"As bodies wrapped in plastic sheets were carried in the bucket of a mechanical digger to the edge of open trenches, Weiapol Pitcun, a Thai official, said: “This may look insensitive but what else can we do? There are too many for us to cope with, so this is the most efficient way to store the bodies.”

"Mr Pitcun said that the authorities would deter visits by relatives to prevent the site from becoming a place of pilgrimage. “Families should not come here, it will only upset them,” he said. “Tell them there is not anything worthwhile to see.”

"Armed police deterred local onlookers from investigating what was happening in this rural backwater"

"Monks from the temple occasionally appeared to say prayers over the funeral pyres but paid no attention to the procession of burials across the narrow lane."

There are too many bodies for them to cope, so they lie about it, deprive people of closure through any kind of ceremony, even a mass ceremony, and then ban people from going and station armed police. And yet, somehow a little Swedish boy allegedly disappears out of thin air.

Somehow, I think the question of what were they supposed to do seems a little bit of an understatement, don't you? Maybe they should've started by telling the truth about the remains of people's loved ones. Lying is not an acceptable form of management in the West, and people certainly don't appreciate being treated like children, especially when the people issuing the orders are more like children themselves.

Edited January 5, 2005 by kat

[Darknight]

"As bodies wrapped in plastic sheets were carried in the bucket of a mechanical digger to the edge of open trenches, Weiapol Pitcun, a Thai official, said: “This may look insensitive but what else can we do? There are too many for us to cope with, so this is the most efficient way to store the bodies.”

"Mr Pitcun said that the authorities would deter visits by relatives to prevent the site from becoming a place of pilgrimage. “Families should not come here, it will only upset them,” he said. “Tell them there is not anything worthwhile to see.”

"Armed police deterred local onlookers from investigating what was happening in this rural backwater"

"Monks from the temple occasionally appeared to say prayers over the funeral pyres but paid no attention to the procession of burials across the narrow lane."

There are too many bodies for them to cope, so they lie about it, deprive people of closure through any kind of ceremony, even a mass ceremony, and then ban people from going and station armed police.  And yet, somehow a little Swedish boy allegedly disappears out of thin air.

Somehow, I think the question of what were they supposed to do seems a little bit of an understatement, don't you?  Maybe they should've started by telling the truth about the remains of people's loved ones.  Lying is not an acceptable form of management in the West, and people certainly don't appreciate being treated like children, especially when the people issuing the orders are more like children themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well and here we have the cultural difference between thai's and westerners.

Thai feel it's ok to hide the thruth as not to upset the loved ones (being respectfull to the dead and family)

Westerners can only find closure if they go through all the grewsome details.

Same purpose sought by both sides , different way of looking at it.

I think it's very unfair to call thais in this situation children.

By the way , thread moved to comments forum.

[kat]

I'm sorry, but to my Western viewpoint, if the people in charge decide it is much easier to lie, deny, or blame others rather than take responsibile action and then simply ban the truth, they are much less mature to me than a 12-year old. What would be more fair - to smile and lie?

[britmaveric]

Don't think Thai's have much choice- need to do smth with the bodies before it becomes a health problem.

Go to onethailand.com and take a look at some of the dead- they are unrecognizeable, and DNA will take ages to determine who they are if at all.

[Darknight]

I'm sorry, but to my Western viewpoint, if the people in charge decide it is much easier to lie, deny, or blame others rather than take responsibile action and then simply ban the truth, they are much less mature to me than a 12-year old.  What would be more fair - to smile and lie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what would you like people to hear? yes your loved one who we can't identify but it "xxx" somewhere has had a nice burial in accordance to his religion with all the frills attached?

Have a look at some of the pics in my gallery, and you'll soon understand this is practically impossible.

[kat]

I've seen pictures Darknight, but I don't like being a voyeur in this type of situation.

I understand both sides, which is why I included the top quote of the Thai authorites in my first post. I am not blaming you or them for their point of view, or the overwhelming task that they face.

But this catastrophe involves more than Thailand. These are other people's remains. You cannot lie about a situation of this sort. There are people flying in from all over the world who will not sleep until they know. If Thailand is secretly burying people in the midst of this scenario then I think is extremely unethical, to say the least. If they indeed went through the trouble of numbering each body, and the burial ground was for storage as they said, why didn't they post numerical markers?

I understand the enormity of the task, and I cannot blame the government for burying remains, but they need to be transparent. The fact that they were not speaks volumes.

But let's see what actually comes out of this story - maybe they really were only storing corpses and forgot to assign numerical markers

Edited because my spelling is dreadful

Edited January 5, 2005 by kat

[kat]

Ok, so I see I was wrong. The last line of the article does say that the number is attached to a stake in the ground. I still don't like the armed guards, however.

Edited to add: I over-reacted to a highly-charged issue. I really shouldn't type when I feel something more than I think it.

Edited January 5, 2005 by kat

[Darknight]

I think it just sensationalist tendencies on the reporters side.

Anything for a good story, right ?

Sorry for the family of the victims , but practicalities are as they are at the moment.

Here are the graves they are talking about

Here are the victims in the temple

Here's a man labeling them

There even is a thread about a mistake in labelling so they had to exume 300 victims again.

I believe they do the best they can under the circumstances. You can't deal with all the requirements from other cultures and religions in these situations.

[kat]

Yes, I do remember them mentioning the label foul-up, which is understandable under the circumstances. I think your're right - the above article is sensationalistic, especially since he puts the fact that the graves are marked in the last line of the article.

Edited: By the way, what is the source of this article, besides the author?

Edited January 5, 2005 by kat

[gburns57au]

I think it just sensationalist tendencies on the reporters side.

Anything for a good story, right ?

Sorry for the family of the victims , but practicalities are as they are at the moment.

Here are the graves they are talking about

Here are the victims in the temple

Here's a man labeling them

There even is a thread about a mistake in labelling so they had to exume 300 victims again.

I believe they do the best they can under the circumstances. You can't deal with all the requirements from other cultures and religions in these situations.

It does seem strange that the number quoted goes against the official figures of total missing and dead...Could I also suggest that the bodies being buried are those that are identifiable as Thai....I was under the impression from the DVI teams that all farang bodies were under refrigeration until ID's could be made, no matter how long it took.

[kat]

Yes, I remember reading that all foreign corpses were going to be stored in refrigerated boxes, and Thais were either buried or cremated by relatives who came to claim them.

But then I also read that they did not have enough refrigerated boxes.

I also remember hearing about the temple grounds a week ago, but I can't remember if the Thai authorities said foreigners would be buried there. I only remember that when the temple grounds were mentioned a week ago foreigners were banished from the site That's all I remember.

For some reason, this subject is too emotional for me. I'll leave you all to sort it out. Good night.

[britmaveric]

I think it just sensationalist tendencies on the reporters side.

Anything for a good story, right ?

Sorry for the family of the victims , but practicalities are as they are at the moment.

Here are the graves they are talking about

Here are the victims in the temple

Here's a man labeling them

There even is a thread about a mistake in labelling so they had to exume 300 victims again.

I believe they do the best they can under the circumstances. You can't deal with all the requirements from other cultures and religions in these situations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It does seem strange that the number quoted goes against the official figures of total missing and dead...Could I also suggest that the bodies being buried are those that are identifiable as Thai....I was under the impression from the DVI teams that all farang bodies were under refrigeration until ID's could be made, no matter how long it took.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thousands of farang bodies- I dont think they have the ability to refrigerate that many I'm afraid.

[IsaanAlex]

Westerners can only find closure if they go through all the grewsome details.

Westerners are far less grim than Thais, IMHO.

When there is an accident in Thailand it is often bloody, and people come from everywhere to gawk (same everywhere, but moreso in Thailand, IMO).

When someone dies in a village, it's not uncommon for people to also come from everywhere to look; if the person suicides inside a house, for example, it's not unheard of for people to walk in and have a peek.

Dead are laid out and cleaned over a process of days in some places.

Many bodies are buried and then dug up and cleaned on the templegrounds.

Thais buy loads and loads of '50 cent' magazines that show homicide victims; dead people are also shown everywhere on tv.

Thais, if anyone, go through the 'gruesome' details; and they also wouldn't want to be shitted about the details of a loved ones death.

In this case, it's obvious that they have to bury the people right quick; but armed guards, a fair degree of secrecy, and ...what looks like a wholesale underreporting of the disasters true death toll seems a bit much; characterictically Thai. But still a bit much...

For some people it is good to know the truth and for other people it is better not to know the truth. If a man is dead he is dead. Lies are often told to people in the Western world... especially in war. A man may be claimed to be a 'hero' when in fact he was shot by one of his own, or he died running from the enemy... is it better to know the truth? Does it serve any purpose to know the truth?

erm.yes.

What to do with thousands upon thousands of rotting corpses... If it were a relative of mine, I would rather they were burried 'quickly' even in an unmarked grave than to think of them rotting in the heat and slowly decomposing. The problem is here, that although we all have our own personal preferrences of what 'should' have been done, it would be impossible to cater to each individuals wants/needs/desires.

Let's simplify the whole process and at least start with the truth, ok?

I don't need anyone deciding for me if I should get the truth or not.

What an Orwellian and condescending thought...that even the circumstances of the deaths of our loved one should be shielded from us; and for our 'own good' to boot...

IA

Edited January 5, 2005 by IsaanAlex

[Darknight]

It does seem strange that the number quoted goes against the official figures of total missing and dead...Could I also suggest that the bodies being buried are those that are identifiable as Thai....I was under the impression from the DVI teams that all farang bodies were under refrigeration until ID's could be made, no matter how long it took.

The story reports that they needed to make space for 10.000 , not thet there are. seems very subjective to me.

When identified as thai they would most likely be cremated after given to the family .

The Id teams are resorting to (exuse me for the graphic image of it) cutting fingers and Teeth to make fingerprints before they are buried (some other pics in my gallery). There are not enough refrigiration trucks to cope with all of the bodies. Only if they are positively identified by foreign dental records or DNA will the bodies be exumed.

The principal risk is for desease to break out and so data is collected and they are buried for now. This process of matching names can take several months.

The belgian ID team has so far been able to locate and identify about 40 of the suspected 80 missing countrymen.

Of course there will be many who will never be ID'ed and will remain anonymus.

[kat]

I'm sorry, but to my Western viewpoint, if the people in charge decide it is much easier to lie, deny, or blame others rather than take responsibile action and then simply ban the truth, they are much less mature to me than a 12-year old.  What would be more fair - to smile and lie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what would you like people to hear? yes your loved one who we can't identify but it "xxx" somewhere has had a nice burial in accordance to his religion with all the frills attached?

Have a look at some of the pics in my gallery, and you'll soon understand this is practically impossible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all due respect to everyone... I don't think this thread is a good road to go down, unless we can do so with total respect for each others views. Name calling and blaming is not going to get anyone anywhere.

For some people it is good to know the truth and for other people it is better not to know the truth. If a man is dead he is dead. Lies are often told to people in the Western world... especially in war. A man may be claimed to be a 'hero' when in fact he was shot by one of his own, or he died running from the enemy... is it better to know the truth? Does it serve any purpose to know the truth?

What to do with thousands upon thousands of rotting corpses... If it were a relative of mine, I would rather they were burried 'quickly' even in an unmarked grave than to think of them rotting in the heat and slowly decomposing. The problem is here, that although we all have our own personal preferrences of what 'should' have been done, it would be impossible to cater to each individuals wants/needs/desires.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

o.k., so I didn't leave earlier as promised, and I'm still here. I want to make what I hope is my final comment for the night:

Ravisher, your point is well taken, except for one line: " ... is it better to know the truth? Does it serve any purpose to know the truth?"

Many people, including entire civilizations, would answer your question with a resounding, absolute, one-hundred times magnified, YES. Of course people and governments lie in the west, but when they do and are found out, it is a source of shame, not denial. Lying in the west is not a norm, unlike here.

And to answer your question about whether it is better to know the truth or not, and if it serves a purpose, deserves another question: how much do you value an examined life? Because I can't see anyone living a life worth examining if they are accustomed to blocking out unpleasant or inconvienent details. No one has the right to make that decision for any one else.

But in this case, honesty is important for closure, sentiment, and respect. And life doesn't get more honest that that.

[onethailand]

Weiapol Pitcun, a Thai official

How much you want to bet this is bullshit? That name does not even remotely look Thai!

Thai officials have already admitted one problem in labeling which required about 50 (if I recall correctly) bodies to be exhumed and re-examined.

In any case, the UK media is typically sensationalist - and I wouldn't put much weight behind that report. As I have said before - there is zero way they would be able to hide a mass grave with 10K bodies in it, especially with so many people, including responsible media, hovering in the area.

[PvtDick]

I wonder how one tells the nationality of a corpse? There are obviously lots and lots of Asian-Americans and Asian-Europeans, not to mention all the Hong Kong, Singapore, PRC, etc. tourists who lost their lives.

[Darknight]

I wonder how one tells the nationality of a corpse?  There are obviously lots and lots of Asian-Americans and Asian-Europeans, not to mention all the Hong Kong, Singapore, PRC, etc. tourists who lost their lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed pvt , especially since alot of them were wearing swimgear or sleeping. No clothes with wallets, credit cards and Id's.

[lukamar]

You just have to look at some of the film footage from Indonesia where they were pushing piles of naked or partly covered bodies into pits with bulldozers, to understand the care the Thai's are trying to take.

It has often been said in the media (in regards to Thailand) that any of the developed countries would be hardpressed to do a better job if the disaster happened on their doorstep.

I for one think the Thai people have done a good job in the lousy situation they were thrown into.

[Boon Mee]

I'm sorry, but to my Western viewpoint, if the people in charge decide it is much easier to lie, deny, or blame others rather than take responsibile action and then simply ban the truth, they are much less mature to me than a 12-year old.  What would be more fair - to smile and lie?

In Thailand as elsewhere in Asia, the truth is a slippery substance.

You ain't in Kansas now, Toto...

[kat]

No shit, Auntie 'Em.

[kuanteen]

...raising doubts that a true count of victims will ever be known....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aren't the missing registered or something? Sounds rather sensationalist, this reporter.......

[britmaveric]

...raising doubts that a true count of victims will ever be known....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aren't the missing registered or something? Sounds rather sensationalist, this reporter.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My guess is Thai immigration will have a list of farang entering the kingdom and this will be useful to certain extent. (this is prob where they get their missing numbers from - unable to contact address on the entry cards)

Course I'm sure there will be people looking to scam insurance companies from this disaster like they did with World Trade Center bombings.

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Have you seen the morgue thumbnails? I never knew water could do this to a body.

These maggoty corpses are about to pop. Its too late to embalm them. Physical identification is a pipedream. They should take DNA swabs and give them a decent burial, with exhumation and expatriation upon satisfactory family proof.

[aaaaaa]

In Thailand as elsewhere in Asia, the truth is a slippery substance.

You ain't in Kansas now, Toto...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ha!

you sound like in the West you have whole the truth from your media !

so hillarious!

western, especially US's media has learned their tricks of ideological propaganda and harened their mussles in wrestling contests with Russian TASS ever since Cold War....

and now since TASS is no more - media of which other countries than of single remaining superpower in the world is most powerfull propaganda machine , huh?

I always thought it is rather obvious! amazing that still there are individuals who sincerealy believe everything what their media says, and more amazing is that some think that "our media is never wrong - it is Asia / whoever else who gives half-truths or hides the real facts" !

at least no need to be so naive to express such statements - sort of, Asian truth is not real truth - Western Truth is the real one.

I thought that we live in 21st century - not in some colonial ages ....

[kat]

In Thailand as elsewhere in Asia, the truth is a slippery substance.

You ain't in Kansas now, Toto...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ha!

you sound like in the West you have whole the truth from your media !

so hillarious!

western, especially US's media has learned their tricks of ideological propaganda and harened their mussles in wrestling contests with Russian TASS ever since Cold War....

and now since TASS is no more - media of which other countries than of single remaining superpower in the world is most powerfull propaganda machine , huh?

I always thought it is rather obvious! amazing that still there are individuals who sincerealy believe everything what their media says, and more amazing is that some think that "our media is never wrong - it is Asia / whoever else who gives half-truths or hides the real facts" !

at least no need to be so naive to express such statements - sort of, Asian truth is not real truth - Western Truth is the real one.

I thought that we live in 21st century - not in some colonial ages ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

uh, I was under the impression that we were discussing social/cultural norms. Are you sure you were not inhaling helium before you posted?

[naomisri]

This post is interesting - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...4042&hl=burmese - where are the legal and illegal workers from Myanmar? At the time of publishing the piece says that there weren't any Burmese confirmed as dead. Yet it reports Burmese living in many of the affected areas including Ban Nam Khem. Would Thailand be a little secretive about illegal workers that might have been involved?

I agree there may be a little sensationalism going on in this one too, but it could possibly go some way towards explaning extra bodies. If you were here illegally would you risk reporting a loved one missing? Would there be anyone there to report you missing?