The Missing Vowel

[tgeezer]

I went to the pool today, didn't want to go but needed to ask around on the subject which is bugging me. The first respondent was the lady who works in the office at the pool, she was the one who first pointed out that เดือนมกราคท was not ม-โอะ-ก-กรา-ค-โอะ-ม but rather มะ-กะ-รา-ค-โอะ-ม so I know that she has an interest. I had decided to introduce sex (เพศ) into the discussion after 'breaking the ice' so I began with เล่น which she read as ล่-แอะ-น I then mentioned เมฆ ม-เอ-ก when I pointed out that the vowels were the same she decided to give me a lesson on the vowels writing them down she missed เอะ just had เอ to แอ she then sang the vowels to me a-la school time, I wrote out the five up to เอ and finally she said "ไช่ เมฆ เลข และ เล่น never mine" as she waved her hands in front of her fingers all loose, as they do. It was similar at the barbers, three barbers fell into my trap and the market, a Moslem lady who sells crepes and the lady next door shop, same result. While I was walking home I realized that I had not managed to bring up sex!

Not a very academic bunch I will admit but there is a missing vowel sometimes and, because it is colloquial, the trick is to find out which words have it and which have its brother.

Just in case there are any people who think as I did before I read any books, the vowel เอ is not the short form of แอ and เอาะ is not the short form of เอา I got by for years without knowing that because it was well hidden by all the other errors.

Edited February 17, 2009 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

On the golf course today I managed to get พ+เอ+ด into the conversation, well not really I just asked straigt out, and they were 'scratching their heads' wondering what I was trying to say until I changed it to พ+แอะ+ด so that solves that problem.

Some people may wonder why I go on about this, well, when I first started taking an interest in reading and writing I would have liked someone to have said it, because as I mentioned before if you don't keep reviewing what you have learnt it is easy to make the mistake of thinking that เอ is the short form of แอ and I think that there are not a few native speakers who also think so. I think interested parties could discuss these things for the benefit of everybody.

I realize that it is not interesting when you know it all, but there must be quite a few people starting to learn who would like to know all the information so that they can decide what they feel is important. For example; the rules on dead words don't make sense unless you ignore ไอ ใอ อัว เอา, because they are initially taught as vowels, and accepted as vowels. That is how children are taught, adults learning a new language should get the full story from day one. Because I am learning from books acceptable to the Ministry of Education, at each level I thought I knew, I was not corrected other than a bald statement that I am wrong, nothing to back it up, I am still not sure that I know the full story, the only way to find out is to ask here. My way of asking is to make a statement which appears to me to be true, I hope that if someone knows or has a different view then a debate can start which, it is to be hoped will discover the facts and the topic will be finished. Silence is agreement of a sort but a bit of a cop-out.

So, there we are then, the vowel เอ often sounds more like แอะ or แอ in some words for no particular reason.

[aanon]

if you're saying that thais pronounce เพศ as แพด and that some of them think แ and เ are short and long versions of the same vowel, I don't know how to respond except by saying that I've never come across or heard of such a thing. what you may be noticing is that the เ sound in เพศ is pronounced as a long vowel sound while, in common practice, the เ in เล่น sounds somewhat shorter.

nonetheless, เพด/แพด/เล่น/แล่น are easily distinguishable from one another.

is there any reason why you don't like to use the style of 'phonetic' thai as found in dictionaries (eg. มะ-กะ-รา-คม)?

with genuine respect, i think that perhaps the reason you have not had more response is that it's hard to respond to so many varied ideas in a convenient way. you can make it easier by giving prominence to your main point or question, if you have one. otherwise, people may just skim through your observations and, unless something particularly interests them, simply move on.

all the best.

ps. are you saying that เพศ doesn't normally arise in the course of a round of golf? hehe...

[kriswillems]

Sometimes เอ is pronounced as เอะ or เอ็- but I think this sound is still a bit different from แอะ or แอ็-

On http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels you can find audio files for the different vowels.

Edited February 19, 2009 by kriswillems

[Richard W]

if you're saying that thais pronounce เพศ as แพด and that some of them think แ and เ are short and long versions of the same vowel, I don't know how to respond except by saying that I've never come across or heard of such a thing. what you may be noticing is that the เ sound in เพศ is pronounced as a long vowel sound while, in common practice, the เ in เล่น sounds somewhat shorter.

The เอ and เอะ vowels differ in quality as well as length - เอะ is opener and therefore closer to แอ than is เอ.

[kriswillems]

I think เอ is never pronounced as แอะ. It is sometimes pronounced as เอะ. แอะ and เอะ are close together but still different.

Many short vowels are not just the same in "quality" as long vowels.

For instance the vowels in ปีก and ปิด have a very different "quality".

And even the same vowel can have a different "quality" in different words. For instance:

The vowel in หิว and ปิด have a different "quality".

Edited February 19, 2009 by kriswillems

[tgeezer]

if you're saying that thais pronounce เพศ as แพด and that some of them think แ and เ are short and long versions of the same vowel, I don't know how to respond except by saying that I've never come across or heard of such a thing. what you may be noticing is that the เ sound in เพศ is pronounced as a long vowel sound while, in common practice, the เ in เล่น sounds somewhat shorter.

nonetheless, เพด/แพด/เล่น/แล่น are easily distinguishable from one another.

is there any reason why you don't like to use the style of 'phonetic' thai as found in dictionaries (eg. มะ-กะ-รา-คม)?

with genuine respect, i think that perhaps the reason you have not had more response is that it's hard to respond to so many varied ideas in a convenient way. you can make it easier by giving prominence to your main point or question, if you have one. otherwise, people may just skim through your observations and, unless something particularly interests them, simply move on.

all the best.

ps. are you saying that เพศ doesn't normally arise in the course of a round of golf? hehe...

Good Lord no, we are all over sixty and the one who thought that he wasn't and kept telling dirty jokes doesn't play anymore.

Phonetics I would normally write normally because in this case I wanted to be unambiguous เล่็น might get more comments. Oh I see you meant the first post, I must have just been reading a book doing it and it just came out. I will change back.

I put the final statement to cover the fact that I ramble on.

[tgeezer]

if you're saying that thais pronounce เพศ as แพด and that some of them think แ and เ are short and long versions of the same vowel, I don't know how to respond except by saying that I've never come across or heard of such a thing. what you may be noticing is that the เ sound in เพศ is pronounced as a long vowel sound while, in common practice, the เ in เล่น sounds somewhat shorter.

The เอ and เอะ vowels differ in quality as well as length - เอะ is opener and therefore closer to แอ than is เอ.

So you agree. But the long and short vowels are not supposed to be any different, it just happens.

[tgeezer]

Sometimes เอ is pronounced as เอะ or เอ็- but I think this sound is still a bit different from แอะ or แอ็-

On http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels you can find audio files for the different vowels.

Thanks I tried that but they don't do เล่น in the examples and Lexitron does not give a sample for เล่น either, however it wont be any different from what I hear Thais say.

[DavidHouston]

Sometimes เอ is pronounced as เอะ or เอ็- but I think this sound is still a bit different from แอะ or แอ็-

On http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels you can find audio files for the different vowels.

Thanks I tried that but they don't do เล่น in the examples and Lexitron does not give a sample for เล่น either, however it wont be any different from what I hear Thais say.

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/IrregularWords

[tgeezer]

Sometimes เอ is pronounced as เอะ or เอ็- but I think this sound is still a bit different from แอะ or แอ็-

On http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels you can find audio files for the different vowels.

Thanks I tried that but they don't do เล่น in the examples and Lexitron does not give a sample for เล่น either, however it wont be any different from what I hear Thais say.

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/IrregularWords

Thanks David that clears it all up, as always you have the facts to hand. My piddling little example is just the tip of the iceberg.

[mangkorn]

Silence is agreement of a sort but a bit of a cop-out.

And self-delusion is, well, self-delusion.

As Thais say, in very clear language and with precise meaning: หมาขี้ไม่มีใครยกหาง

For one who constantly complains about what he calls lack of precision in Thai, it might be useful to review the appallingly incorrect and incomprehensible English used to put forth such arguments.

Perhaps that roaring silence merely reflects the fact that nobody else can understand a word of it.

[DavidHouston]

Silence is agreement of a sort but a bit of a cop-out.

And self-delusion is, well, self-delusion.

As Thais say, in very clear language and with precise meaning: หมาขี้ไม่มีใครยกหาง

For one who constantly complains about what he calls lack of precision in Thai, it might be useful to review the appallingly incorrect and incomprehensible English used to put forth such arguments.

Perhaps that roaring silence merely reflects the fact that nobody else can understand a word of it.

คุณมังกรถรับ,

I believe that there is a bit of a comprehension gap here. Many in these forums are writing in the New English, the language of the 21^st Century. Many of us, on the other hand, are firmly stuck in the 20^th Century.

Just as the English of Beowulf and gave way to the language of Chaucer and Chaucer to Dr. Samuel Johnson and he to Charles Dickens and so on to Winston Churchill, so is the language that we learned (or learnt) in the eighth grade is giving way to the Neo-English of the 21^st Century. This language might be better known as SMS lingo, or forum-speak. And, to stay with the theme of this forum, as has oft' noted, Thai is undergoing the same changes. In fact, as we have also noted, there seems to be a tendency in Internet discourse to merge the two SMS languages, at least on the Thai side.

This Neo-English does away with such unnecessary complications and convolutions as capitalization conventions, grammar rules, punctuation marks, and all manner of spelling niceties. Why does English need the equivalent of the Royal Institute when each poster reserves the right to choose his or her own spellings in this most democratic of all communications institutions? Why do we need subject-verb agreement when it is perfectly obvious to the experienced Internet reader exactly what the poster at the other end is saying? Think of the SMS world: How many parents can read what their children are communicating over the SMS system? In the same manner, we old folks often cannot understand the meaning of some of our posters.

It does not escape our notice that some of the most proficient and correct writers of English in this forum are posters for whom English is not their native language. My hat is off to them! It seems, on the other hand, that the British, Australian, and American posters in this forum are in the vanguard of this neo-speak, 21^st Century, free-style, grammar-less, version of the English language.

Let us acknowledge these advances and recognize the inevitability of its continued adoption. Call it the apocalypse of English as we know it.

Many on this forum have learned from the new generations of communicators everywhere how to speed up keyboarding and to thumb a telephone efficiently. I further pay homage their expertise because, as some reminds us, they are probably two generations removed from Generation-Y. Please do not take this as a flame – it is not.

[tgeezer]

To mangkorn,

I think you are the only chap who can't understand; arn't you the one who put ??? as a reply to one of my posts, I thought you were being smart, the possiblity that you didn't understand never occured to me. Other people managed a reply which led to me revising all the lessons on the production of vowels, which was very useful.

I am sorry that it seem to you that I ขอบยกตัวเอง but in the light of what you have said, am not surprised that you should misunderstand me in that respect also.

Edited February 21, 2009 by tgeezer

[kriswillems]

My problem with reading some threads is not that the English of some people is bad, it's that the English of some people is too good. It would be nice if the posters could formulate their questions and ideas in a structured way, using simple words and short sentences. When I read the English of some people I feel jealous but also frustrated because I can not join the discussion. Anyway, I think I learn more English by reading these threads than Thai which is not necessarily a bad thing. But in the end the intention of this sub-forum should be learning Thai and not learning English.

[DavidHouston]

My problem with reading some threads is not that the English of some people is bad, it's that the English of some people is too good. It would be nice if the posters could formulate their questions and ideas in a structured way, using simple words and short sentences. When I read the English of some people I feel jealous but also frustrated because I can not join the discussion. Anyway, I think I learn more English by reading these threads than Thai which is not necessarily a bad thing. But in the end the intention of this sub-forum should be learning Thai and not learning English.

Kris, you are one of the posters to whom I was referring who are not native speakers but whose English expression is often better than those who are.

[Hardie]

เล่น is not a good example for normally correct Thai phonetics. It is almost always pronounced as an English 'short e' or even 'short i' up north. The original spelling seems to come from the Khmer.

Thank God Thai spellings and pronunciations are fairly precise (except for the junk DNA carried over from Sanskrit). It's the meanings that can be fuzzy!

[Richard W]

เล่น is not a good example for normally correct Thai phonetics. It is almost always pronounced as an English 'short e' or even 'short i' up north. The original spelling seems to come from the Khmer.

With sara e, it is a very sound rule that a tone mark shortens the vowel. This goes back to the fact that native, inherited /e/ is normally a short vowel in a closed syllable - long /e:/ is typically found in loan words. A notable exception is เหลน, but it may just be Siamese and Lao that have the long vowel - it's short outside Thailand and Laos.

Now, I will admit that the etymologically correct spelling of เล่น is *เหล้น, but I don't think that is a relevant matter.

What makes you think that the spelling comes from Khmer?

Thank God Thai spellings and pronunciations are fairly precise (except for the junk DNA carried over from Sanskrit). It's the meanings that can be fuzzy!

That's normal.

[tgeezer]

A little piece of Thai from ภาษาไทย ม๑

บางคำออกเสียงไม่ตรงกับรูป เช่น น้ำ เท้า เก้า ฯลฯ เราเขียน น-ำ น้ำ วรรณยุกต์ รูปโท ถ้าวิเคราะห์เสียงตามรูปที่ปรากฏ อำคือสระอะ มี ม เป็นตัวสะกด แต่ออกเสียงเป็น น สระอา ม เป็นตัวสะกด วรรณยุกต์รูปโท ออกเสียงเป็นวรรณยุกต์ตรี การออกเสียงที่ผิดไปจากรูปนี้มีไม่มากนัก....

I was talking to a teacher last evening and I get the impression that in เล่น เน้น for example if the ending results in a diphthong as it does here it is pronounced as short and the vowel accepted. It was also agreed that you cannot have two marks above a letter; อ้็ thus.

To produce the ending น the tongue moves up from its position for เอะ to the position of แอะ doesn't it?

Following on from the quote above.

.....แต่เมื่อผู้ฟังรับสารได้เข้าใจและเป็นที่ยอมรับกัน ผู้เรียนต้องรู้จักสังเกตและจดจำ

I realize that this doesn't support anything I have said; I post it simply because it does show how flexible I need to be, and it is the only thing I have seen in Thai on the subject of anomolous pronunciation. I do wonder why though, if it is acceptable in a school book the dictionary does not show it.

[Richard W]

I was talking to a teacher last evening and I get the impression that in เล่น เน้น for example if the ending results in a diphthong as it does here it is pronounced as short and the vowel accepted. It was also agreed that you cannot have two marks above a letter; อ้็ thus.

To produce the ending น the tongue moves up from its position for เอะ to the position of แอะ doesn't it?

Being a diphthong or not is irrelevant here.

Incidentally, thinking of rimes such as /en/ being diphthongs is useful for Thai. In particular, the length rule applies equally well to /ai/ v. /aai/ and /en/ v. /een/ (forum phonetic notation):

1) The length is independent of whether the vowel is nominally short or long.

2) When we say the vowel is long, it is the first element is long.

3) When we say the vowel is short, it is the second element that is long.

For the tone rules, diphthongs count as long - except for short /ia/, /uea/ and /ua/, i.e. when followed by ะ.

[tgeezer]

I was talking to a teacher last evening and I get the impression that in เล่น เน้น for example if the ending results in a diphthong as it does here it is pronounced as short and the vowel accepted. It was also agreed that you cannot have two marks above a letter; อ้็ thus.

To produce the ending น the tongue moves up from its position for เอะ to the position of แอะ doesn't it?

Being a diphthong or not is irrelevant here.

Incidentally, thinking of rimes such as /en/ being diphthongs is useful for Thai. In particular, the length rule applies equally well to /ai/ v. /aai/ and /en/ v. /een/ (forum phonetic notation):

1) The length is independent of whether the vowel is nominally short or long.

2) When we say the vowel is long, it is the first element is long.

3) When we say the vowel is short, it is the second element that is long.

For the tone rules, diphthongs count as long - except for short /ia/, /uea/ and /ua/, i.e. when followed by ะ.

I am afraid I don't understand any of that, the phonetics don't help. Do we call เอีย (สระประสม) a diphthong when teaching Thai? In my post I was just trying to make an excuse for the short form, probably making too much of: ถ้าลิ้นยกอยู่ในระดับใดเพียงระดับเดียวเสียงสระที่เกิดขึ้นเรียกว่า สระแท้