Prime Minister Worries About Thailand Image

[Plus]

absolutely nobody , thats who.

Count me as a nobody, then. You can also find quite a few nobodies at the coming Asean summit.

[JoeThePoster]

Dems got into power legitimately by coersing former govt parties to switch sides.

Beyond that I don't see how TRT election wins, or price of fish are related to this thread. Five years ago Thaksin was a an ambitious, risging star. Now he is a convicted criminal whose backroom dealings have been exposed for everyone to see.

Shit like that happens all the time here, he's not the first one, Asean members are not striving for his return.

The best remark that sums up their attitude came from Bush, of all people. I can easily visualise his chuckle - "He got caught, heh?"

No one here is calling for Thaksin to return. You should seek medical help for your paranoia.

Bold to point out the lie.

There are several users on this forum that openly declare they wish him to return to become PM.

I mean't in this particular thread up to the point of my post in question. But with your head so far up where the sun doesnt shine, it doesn't really matter.

Do you mean no-one that has posted in this thread want him back or that no-one has posted just that exact statement in just This thread (but perhaps 19 others)?

If you are going to insult people atleast make it clear what it is you are trying to state.

"ktnxbye"

You take affront after calling me a liar in the first place.

I don't have to explain anything to an idiot.

Edited February 26, 2009 by JoeThePoster

[jdinasia]

Joe ...

hate to say it (no, really I don't) but you are way off base. People ARE calling for Thaksin's return and to say otherwise is a lie.

[JoeThePoster]

Joe ...

hate to say it (no, really I don't) but you are way off base. People ARE calling for Thaksin's return and to say otherwise is a lie.

Just put your paranoia aside and try to read the context in which my statement was made.

[justanothercybertosser]

Except for the fact that they are not getting stronger, and are not more numerous....

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1229...est-loses-steam

One should not just read the headlines, but the entire article:

Quote:

"The figure plunged from nearly 10,000 on Monday to less than 1,000 at one point, before it picked up again last night when more people turned up."

Just because PAD protests have been far more radical, and we saw disgusting stunts such as the takeover of government offices, does not mean that Red Shirts are "losing steam". The UDD/Red Shirts have been called that since its early beginning by its opponents. I am getting tired of that argument based on nothing but wishful thinking by its opponents.

Also PAD has at times had less than 1000 protesters at their sites, but i would have never made the mistake of the PAD "losing steam". Both opposing forces are very strong, and will stay so for a considerable time.

[Plus]

I forgot what the context was, but there are posters on this board who are calling for Thaksin's return, Koo comes to mind first, but also there are lots of people here who'd welcome him back as a coup roll back, if that was on the cards.

I don't need to tell you that I'm in a group that will not accept his return under ANY conditions., short of him serving his sentences first.

[justanothercybertosser]

they do develop

Then why can't they build a coherent, reasonable platform and keep putting out stupid demands.

They can't revert to 1997 constitution anymore, for example. And getting tens of thousands of people to block the govt house for days to oust just ONE minister who hasn't done absolutely nothing wrong in his job yet?

Not to mention that as a matter of principle the govt allegedly backed by the military has the same legitimacy as a govt backed by Thaksin.

Basically they don't have an end game, there's no point at which they could be satisfied.

As for the number of brainwashed, emotionally charged people - it doesn't mean anything in a big scheme of things, it's just a minor annoyance as long as they don't make any sense and can be reasoned with.

They have a coherent, reasonable platform. Restoring the '97 constitution is reasonable. Why, when the Army can tear up that constitution, and get a new constitution voted in, can't the old one not re-instated? This constitution has the possibility of amendments, so there is much space for negotiations.

Demanding that one minister who is a member of the PAD to be removed from his position is coherent. And so is the demand to call in new elections. Abhisit himself has demanded so before he had the chance to become prime minister.

As to completely unreasonable and brainwashed - i would better look at PAD's completely outlandish demands.

[sriracha john]

Except for the fact that they are not getting stronger, and are not more numerous....

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1229...est-loses-steam

I am getting tired of that argument based on nothing but wishful thinking by its opponents.

Getting tired so quickly? Your current thaivisa membership is less than 2 months old this time, Colonel.

Edited February 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[hammered]

they do develop

Then why can't they build a coherent, reasonable platform and keep putting out stupid demands.

They can't revert to 1997 constitution anymore, for example. And getting tens of thousands of people to block the govt house for days to oust just ONE minister who hasn't done absolutely nothing wrong in his job yet?

Not to mention that as a matter of principle the govt allegedly backed by the military has the same legitimacy as a govt backed by Thaksin.

Basically they don't have an end game, there's no point at which they could be satisfied.

As for the number of brainwashed, emotionally charged people - it doesn't mean anything in a big scheme of things, it's just a minor annoyance as long as they don't make any sense and can be reasoned with.

They have a coherent, reasonable platform. Restoring the '97 constitution is reasonable. Why, when the Army can tear up that constitution, and get a new constitution voted in, can't the old one not re-instated? This constitution has the possibility of amendments, so there is much space for negotiations.

Demanding that one minister who is a member of the PAD to be removed from his position is coherent. And so is the demand to call in new elections. Abhisit himself has demanded so before he had the chance to become prime minister.

As to completely unreasonable and brainwashed - i would better look at PAD's completely outlandish demands.

At some point there will be a politcal reform/constituional reform process. It is a matter of when and who will set it up and who will get to be involved. The power to oversee the process is the power to influence it. Persoanlly I cant see this being resolved before the Thaksin issue is resolved as his name makes everything emotive and impossible to compromise on. Take away the emotive stuff and then rational debate can take place. Probably a way off and with the potential for thing sto go wrong along the way but probably the best hope for national reconcilliation.

National reconcilliation is not going to be achieved by one side acceding to the demands of the other. Neither side see the others demands so compromise is the only way.

There are more than a few analysts who argue what limits the "pro-democracy" red groups are that they are still seen to be linked to Thaksin. If that is publically seen to no longer be the case then the their own democracy agenda may benefit (not including the R stuff obviously). To achieve this though the "pro-demcracy" red groups probably need to publically seperate. They may argue that they are different but the media sets the tone and they arent seen that way.

[JoeThePoster]

I forgot what the context was, but there are posters on this board who are calling for Thaksin's return, Koo comes to mind first, but also there are lots of people here who'd welcome him back as a coup roll back, if that was on the cards.

I don't need to tell you that I'm in a group that will not accept his return under ANY conditions., short of him serving his sentences first.

I definitely don't want him back either.

Anyway, is it at all possible to have a discussion about the democrats, without being accused of being a red shirt or wanting to bring Thaksin back?

Obviously not.

[HorseDoctor]

More evidence that it Thailand- it's all about aesthetics, he really ought to be worried about the country, not its " Image"

Land of Superficiality

To cean up the problems, start with educating the kids to actually think and get the lead out the school water dispensers and in about 20- 30 years, everything will right itself.

In the short term , revise the FBA so to lure foreigners to run businesses legally without having to resort to matrimony.

[Plus]

The first Rajamagala rally saw some 40-50-70 thousand people, they haven't been able to match that again, and a thousand doing govt blockade does look like a bad turnout. It's completely ineffective and I won't be surprised if protesters lose enthusiasm even further.

Restoring 1997 const is legally impossible, it's a non-starter, unless reds want a coup themselves, but hold on - aren't they against coups on principle?

Kosit hasn't done anything while in office, and he vowed to step down if police names him on the list of people charged with airport blockade. Come on, who really believes that reds will go home and disappear if Abhisit simply removes Kosit from his cabinet? That's why he stopped listening to them long time ago.

Calling for fresh elections is reasonable on itself, but coupled together with "restore 1997 const" it becomes one big confusion. Should they discard the current consitution first? Then elections would be mandatory, no need to put it on the list of demands. Should they run elections under current constitution - then why demand to throw it away?

The idiots don't know what they want, it's a child's tantrum, nothing more.

[justanothercybertosser]

The idiots don't know what they want, it's a child's tantrum, nothing more.

His name is Kasit, by the way. Not Kosit.

And yes, it is very convenient to state when "police names him". You are of course not familiar with the more than educated rumors about the change of investigating officers regarding the PAD investigations, and that the now investigating officers are close to the Democrat Party. I am sure that he will not be named.

Defining the strength of protest movements along the numbers of protesters that turn out in the streets is a fallacy. PAD had during all the time of last years blockades much less protesters than any of the larger Red Shirt events, and significantly less than pre-coup protests. That does not mean though that they lost steam or significance, as we have clearly seen.

The remainder of your post, elections vs. constitution etc., is nitpicking.

[Plus]

It's not nitpicking - these are their "core" deamands.

If they want to restore 1997 const, they can present a draft to the parliament, in that case they should demonstrate at PTP offices, not at the govt house. And they cannot demand new elections and old constitution restored at the same time. It's simply impossible.

>>>

What are they going to charge Kasit with? Speaking on the stage?

[justanothercybertosser]

At some point there will be a politcal reform/constituional reform process. It is a matter of when and who will set it up and who will get to be involved. The power to oversee the process is the power to influence it. Persoanlly I cant see this being resolved before the Thaksin issue is resolved as his name makes everything emotive and impossible to compromise on. Take away the emotive stuff and then rational debate can take place. Probably a way off and with the potential for thing sto go wrong along the way but probably the best hope for national reconcilliation.

National reconcilliation is not going to be achieved by one side acceding to the demands of the other. Neither side see the others demands so compromise is the only way.

There are more than a few analysts who argue what limits the "pro-democracy" red groups are that they are still seen to be linked to Thaksin. If that is publically seen to no longer be the case then the their own democracy agenda may benefit (not including the R stuff obviously). To achieve this though the "pro-demcracy" red groups probably need to publically seperate. They may argue that they are different but the media sets the tone and they arent seen that way.

The limits of every popular movement is that Thailand is only an emerging Democracy, and has to be defined along those parameters. They cannot separate from Thaksin entirely at this moment of time because of many people seeing him as a symbol for democracy. Given that he has given wider sectors of the population participation than any other Government has - they do have a point. That doesn't mean though that i could describe Thaksin as a democrat in the context of a more developed democracy.

Rational debate is at the present moment not possible. It is a question of shades of grey. And there the PAD is far more emotional than the Red Shirts. If you compare the speeches and tactics of protests, then you can see that the PAD is a threat to the emerging democracy, while the history Red Shirts shows that as a group they do try to evolve into a democracy movement.

The perception of the Red Shirts is created by a barrage of pro-PAD key persons within the media. There are the few odd independent thinkers, such as Pravit, who do try to publish articles that still are rational. Unfortunately those are here in Thailand drowned by the diatribes of the aforementioned.

[justanothercybertosser]

What are they going to charge Kasit with? Speaking on the stage?

The least that he could be charged with is aiding and abetting, and taking part in a completely illegal takeover of the airport. Some do even argue that this takeover is, according to Thai law, to be seen as terrorism.

[sriracha john]

Defining the strength of protest movements along the numbers of protesters that turn out in the streets is a fallacy. PAD had during all the time of last years blockades much less protesters than any of the larger Red Shirt events, and significantly less than pre-coup protests. That does not mean though that they lost steam or significance, as we have clearly seen

ahhh... the good ol' days are back... discussing crowd numbers...

PPP salutes Thaksin legacy

The People Power Party (PPP) drew around 25,000 people for its first major rally in Bangkok at Sanam Luang yesterday where the party promised to continue the legacy of ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/13Oct2007_news12.php

At least the Bangkok Post got the numbers right, this time.

Compare the Nation on the same news:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30052278

PPP leader Samak starts his rally at Sanam Luang

People Power Party leader Samak Sundaravej has started his speech in a party's rally at Sanam Luang at 4.30am.

Around 3,000 people have attended the rally, "PPP meets people."

However, the number is lower than the party had expected due to the wet location after rain overnight.

The difference being that the Post article was written overnight after the rally had been concluded while the Nation article was written as breaking news during the afternoon of the rally prior to its conclusion and likely while more people were still arriving.

[sriracha john]

The perception of the Red Shirts is created by a barrage of pro-PAD key persons within the media. There are the few odd independent thinkers, such as Pravit, who do try to publish articles that still are rational. Unfortunately those are here in Thailand drowned by the diatribes of the aforementioned.

more from the same great Thai news media "Insider"....

Much of the developments of the last year have never been publicized in the medias, or grossly misreported on. Much of what is to come here now will come as a surprise for most people who depend on the media for information.

Edited February 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[Samuian]

.................................................edited.....

what limits the "pro-democracy" red groups are that they are still seen to be linked to Thaksin. If that is publically seen to no longer be the case then the their own democracy agenda may benefit (not including the R stuff obviously). To achieve this though the "pro-demcracy" red groups probably need to publically seperate. They may argue that they are different but the media sets the tone and they arent seen that way.

Can be easily tuned down to :"Taksins hands" as Jakrapob, Nattawut, Chalerm and Friends are clearly his Advocates and will not stop to rally for the change back to the 1997 Constitution, with the aim to his Amnesty, deletion of all charges against him, because they were "politically motivated" and finally his Restoration as the PM.

If this ever happens, Thailand will be in a very sorry state and find itself in what the "Reds" have as their sarcastic Slogan "Democracy against Dictatorship", it will be an autocratic de facto dictatorship, with heavy censorship on all media as it was seen in the past "Taksin era".

No Replay!

[justanothercybertosser]

If this ever happens, Thailand will be in a very sorry state and find itself in what the "Reds" have as their sarcastic Slogan "Democracy against Dictatorship", it will be an autocratic de facto dictatorship, with heavy censorship on all media as it was seen in the past "Taksin era".

No Replay!

Are you trying to say that right now we do not have an authoritarian government including heavy media censorship right now?

[hammered]

This little story from the Post includes the mention that Stiglitz will become an economic adviser to Thailand. Could help on the image front;)

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/13...-bt70-bln-loans

[hammered]

.................................................edited.....

what limits the "pro-democracy" red groups are that they are still seen to be linked to Thaksin. If that is publically seen to no longer be the case then the their own democracy agenda may benefit (not including the R stuff obviously). To achieve this though the "pro-demcracy" red groups probably need to publically seperate. They may argue that they are different but the media sets the tone and they arent seen that way.

Can be easily tuned down to :"Taksins hands" as Jakrapob, Nattawut, Chalerm and Friends are clearly his Advocates and will not stop to rally for the change back to the 1997 Constitution, with the aim to his Amnesty, deletion of all charges against him, because they were "politically motivated" and finally his Restoration as the PM.

If this ever happens, Thailand will be in a very sorry state and find itself in what the "Reds" have as their sarcastic Slogan "Democracy against Dictatorship", it will be an autocratic de facto dictatorship, with heavy censorship on all media as it was seen in the past "Taksin era".

No Replay!

I was actually reading something recently (cant remember where) that was arguing that the red "pro-democracy" movement could move to beyond/abandon Thaksin and professional politicans (Jakrapob, Nattawut, Jatuporn and someone else who I forget now were all mentioned in this category). If this were indeed to happen then that part of the red shirts would be liberated from that connection.

[justanothercybertosser]

I was actually reading something recently (cant remember where) that was arguing that the red "pro-democracy" movement could move to beyond/abandon Thaksin and professional politicans (Jakrapob, Nattawut, Jatuporn and someone else who I forget now were all mentioned in this category). If this were indeed to happen then that part of the red shirts would be liberated from that connection.

Actually, it was Nattawut who has said that:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...-and-not-a-pupp

Quote:

"He said the Red Shirts would remain active even if Thaksin were to decide to quit politics."

[sriracha john]

This little story from the Post includes the mention that Stiglitz will become an economic adviser to Thailand. Could help on the image front;)

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/13...-bt70-bln-loans

While Samak's economic guru might not have won a Nobel Prize in Economics, Finance Minister Surapong was awarded Best Weight-Loss Branch Clinic in Samut Sakhon two years in a row.

[hammered]

I was actually reading something recently (cant remember where) that was arguing that the red "pro-democracy" movement could move to beyond/abandon Thaksin and professional politicans (Jakrapob, Nattawut, Jatuporn and someone else who I forget now were all mentioned in this category). If this were indeed to happen then that part of the red shirts would be liberated from that connection.

Actually, it was Nattawut who has said that:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...-and-not-a-pupp

Quote:

"He said the Red Shirts would remain active even if Thaksin were to decide to quit politics."

No it wasnt that. It included something about Thaksin having politcally sunk rapidly and mentioned moving away from professional politicians including Nattawut who was named with Weera and Jatuporn I think and a comment of moving away from even Jakrapob. Its annoying me now as I read too much to remember where it all was. It also has stuff about how people were increasingly getting frustrated that Thaksin had his own overt ends and that they werent going anywhere and getting in the way and then went on about professional politicians having their own ends (seperate from Thaksin's too) and that they were equally as self serving.

Anyway even if we cant find it I guess there is the basis of a politcal analysis to throw in. Dont like not being able to credit what is from soemone else however.

[justanothercybertosser]

No it wasnt that. It included something about Thaksin having politcally sunk rapidly and mentioned moving away from professional politicians including Nattawut who was named with Weera and Jatuporn I think and a comment of moving away from even Jakrapob. Its annoying me now as I read too much to remember where it all was. It also has stuff about how people were increasingly getting frustrated that Thaksin had his own overt ends and that they werent going anywhere and getting in the way and then went on about professional politicians having their own ends (seperate from Thaksin's too) and that they were equally as self serving.

Anyway even if we cant find it I guess there is the basis of a politcal analysis to throw in. Dont like not being able to credit what is from soemone else however.

This sounds like the laudable though entirely inconsequential 'mai ouw song' position.

During the end of 2008 there were several academics and activists that wanted to initiate such a movement, but it never went beyond arguing over details, and rapidly died away. The problem here is, that in order to begin a political movement in present day Thailand, one has to accept the fact that Thailand is a emerging democracy, and will have to compromise. Ivory tower politics may be the right ethics, but will not get any popular support.

People like Nattawut and Jakrapop have to deal with practical politics, and the necessary compromises.

[hammered]

No it wasnt that. It included something about Thaksin having politcally sunk rapidly and mentioned moving away from professional politicians including Nattawut who was named with Weera and Jatuporn I think and a comment of moving away from even Jakrapob. Its annoying me now as I read too much to remember where it all was. It also has stuff about how people were increasingly getting frustrated that Thaksin had his own overt ends and that they werent going anywhere and getting in the way and then went on about professional politicians having their own ends (seperate from Thaksin's too) and that they were equally as self serving.

Anyway even if we cant find it I guess there is the basis of a politcal analysis to throw in. Dont like not being able to credit what is from soemone else however.

This sounds like the laudable though entirely inconsequential 'mai ouw song' position.

During the end of 2008 there were several academics and activists that wanted to initiate such a movement, but it never went beyond arguing over details, and rapidly died away. The problem here is, that in order to begin a political movement in present day Thailand, one has to accept the fact that Thailand is a emerging democracy, and will have to compromise. Ivory tower politics may be the right ethics, but will not get any popular support.

People like Nattawut and Jakrapop have to deal with practical politics, and the necessary compromises.

The difference with this piece was that it argued Thaksin no longer had that much popular support or that maybe it was people had moved beyond him, which is a bit hard to test. However, with major powerbrokers split from him and with populist polices being practiced by his opponents and no removing of previous populist polices his position is obviously not what it was and some of the myths created by TRT are broken. Right now with the arrest/extradition of Thaksin with Chinese cooperation being mooted clearly the current government feel a lot more confident. Personally I dont think it will ocme off but it will probably remove HK and China from places Thaksin can go.

At some point, anyway, someone on one side has to do a deal with at least one meaningful group on the other side and it may just be that Thaksin wont be the one dealt with, or maybe the deal with Newin was the big deal. There is still much that has happened that has not yet worked its way through imho.

[Plus]

They cannot separate from Thaksin entirely at this moment of time because of many people seeing him as a symbol for democracy. Given that he has given wider sectors of the population participation than any other Government has - they do have a point.

Reds might SEE him as a symbol of democracy, doesn't make him one. Reds might CALL their vision for the country democracy, doesn't make it one.

As for giving public participation - what a strange conclusion! Even his own ministers were just elves serving the big boss, and the whole TRT was build on good old ass licking system.

All power rested with Thaksin, no dissent was tolerated within the party and everyone with even slightest shred of integrity has left him over the years.

Public participation was limited to begging Thaksin for money on TV (ala At Samat). That's all people were allowed to contribute.

As for popular policies - every party (ironically except PTP) has them now. Life goes on.

[G54]

Maybe some Law and Order might help with the countries image. Then again they do not want that, do they?

Not too sure too many of us do either

[justanothercybertosser]

They cannot separate from Thaksin entirely at this moment of time because of many people seeing him as a symbol for democracy. Given that he has given wider sectors of the population participation than any other Government has - they do have a point.

Reds might SEE him as a symbol of democracy, doesn't make him one. Reds might CALL their vision for the country democracy, doesn't make it one.

As for giving public participation - what a strange conclusion! Even his own ministers were just elves serving the big boss, and the whole TRT was build on good old ass licking system.

All power rested with Thaksin, no dissent was tolerated within the party and everyone with even slightest shred of integrity has left him over the years.

Public participation was limited to begging Thaksin for money on TV (ala At Samat). That's all people were allowed to contribute.

As for popular policies - every party (ironically except PTP) has them now. Life goes on.

Yes, keep on repeating the same old mantra of Thaksin being in control. Just because PAD has stated this unsupportd accusation as fact does not mean that we have to swallow this as you do. The era of Thaksin has seen many cases where he had to compromise with dissent within his own party, and from the outside, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, citing examples as well. This is getting very boring.

PAD might see themselves as advocates of democracy, yet no serious study gives them any democratic credits in both ideology and strategy. The Reds are in Thai context a far more democratic group (yet not entirely so), and their efforts of transformation do not go unrecognized. But to see that one has to start reading material that does not come from ASTV.