Thai Airways Makes Huge Loss

[farang2002]

I like their service to the States, but I have noticed a decline somewhat in the last two years... Now I often find them to be pretty expensive compared to other airlines. I can't stand AirAsia, but I haven't seen Thai close to them in price for some time on the domestic end.

Their frequent flyer program isn't good either.

Depends what you are comparing BA to when flying to the States. I once flew United from LA to San Francisco, and my one United experience, never to be repeated, was so much more than enough I could write a book about it

BA staff are indifferent, but United staff are deliberately rude. This pretty much sums them up - http://www.untied.com/ - thought it was a joke at first, until I flew with them. Even the budget Aeroflot flight that I once made as an impoverished backpacker - London to Bangkok (via Moscow, Karachi, Tashkent, Delhi and finally Bangkok) in 1988 was a more pleasant experience.

I can't stand United, I flew a United operated ANA flight from NRT to LAX and the cabin service was the most horrible I have ever experienced on an International flight, felt like an American domestic flight. Rude employees, uncomfortable seats, horrible entertainment... YUCK! Bunch of old, unattractive, rude American ladies... I love my wife but the scenery is much better on the Asian airliners.

Korean Air used to be great for me, but they have raised prices and cut back on service... Never-mind the time they put me, having the highest available sky team frequent flyer designation and having flown business to Korea, behind schedule 24 hours without offering me a hotel, and rerouting me to Chicago on Economy (partly my choice.) I never flew Korean Again after that..

I recently flew EVA airlines and was really pleased..

I have to agree with about US airlines in general. If you think their int'l service sucks, try flying them on domestic US routes; pathetic. But, I have had good experience on United int'l EXCEPT when operated by ANA; ANA is the WORST in Asia. I am still pleased with Thai though; easy to book online, and when I have to call their offices directly, they answer quickly and are competent. Their rates aren't the lowest, but not the highest either. I don't use their frequent flyer program and book the bonus miles to United instead. I fly about 500K miles a year. My list of top airlines are: Thai, Cathay Pacific and Singapore. I have found Singapore Air to be rather snooty and cumbersome to deal with. EVA is also a good airline.

The other problem with Singapore Airlines is if you book the cheapest economy ticket you won't get air miles credit on another Star Alliance carrier.

[Rinrada]

I and many others, stopped using Thai airways when they ruined their frequent flyer program. I will never fly with them again unless they are the cheapest on the market.

What did they do that ruined the program?

Basically they stopped given air miles on tics W-V..on which I (and Khun W) and most punters that I know travelled on.

In our case usually at least 3 times a year...plus internals... Bangers to the Mai.etc plus on occasion to Hanoi - Phnom P-Singers - Sydney....but now no chance of ever gettng back me (our ) old Goldi.s.....Do miss the Bombay Saphire in the Lounge.... but for the price...cheaper outside.

Just picked wife up this morning at Heathrow but because she got a R/T for under ha roi £ and needed to be over there last week ....3 Nieces got their Degrees-presented by HE..(.3 degrees.. Jesu C.) plus some legal stuff..went Thai....never say never.

She recons however that the Airbus return TG 910 to the smoke is too small...trying to save maney... ...MKjai.

Anyway next trip booked for 3 weeks time but 6 of us will be on Ettihad...almost half price ....and we get miles

[bonobo]

I generally fly Star Alliance as it works out well for most destinations. And, quite frankly, United is certainly OK. Much better than Thai, and better than ANA. I like United better than Lufthansa, Egypt, Austria, and Swiss, other Star flights I have taken during the last year or two. The only one better which I have recently flown is Singapore.

[farang2002]

Thai has done nothing to help itself.

I am a freq flyer (B Class) to Madrid. The 747s are old buckets without flatbed seats--on that route. The price is 140,000b round.

last year i discovered Qatar. A 2 hour stop in Doha isn't so bad.

The food, wine and staff are great and the plane was 3 mths old. Flat seats, and even the Econ class looked nice. 79,000b round.

2 concluding points---

Thai has been a lazy gravy train for its senior staff and managers for years. Wouldn't surprise me if the "loss" was a bit creative. Someone has creamed smthg.

Thai "Silk" crap etc is part of the general delusion among Thais that Thailand, its people and its food and all are wonderful and that we shd all be 1000% more gratefu lfor Thailand even existing and allowing us in. We all know that much of this is a huge confidence trick in a presentation based society in which nothing is really as it seems. I welcome the recession if it will help this place to wake up, improve its procedures and get competitive.

Eddy

I have to agree with you Eddie about the general Thai attitude toward farang visitors and expats, so after 30 trips from LAX to BKK in less than 7 years I have made Cebu, Philippines my travel destination of choice. And know what? The more trips I make there, the more I am liking it. Of course it is not for everybody, but if you aren't the flashy type, one can fit right in there with no problem. I now fly Asiana Airlines from LAX and really enjoy them. The filipinas aren't bad either!

[scotbeve]

Agreed.. I still love Thai international to the States, well before they dropped New York and tried to add a stop over between LAX and BKK... I like Cathay as well.. I have heard great things about Singapore but I just haven't flown them yet..

SIA have made the best airline quite a few times.... Changi Airport as well - number one a few times. I would fly SIA over any other airline given the chance...

[xylophone]

Used to like Thai Airways, but went off them on a couple of business class trips from New Zealand to Paris, when I needed a first-aid kit, and there was not one to be found. When it was eventually found, it had nothing in it other than a bandage and a pair of scissors.

Have now stopped flying with this lot and have had good experiences on Qantas, Air New Zealand, JetStar and Singapore airlines. JAL has also been good, however have yet to try Malaysian Airllines, Etihad and Emirates, all of which I have had good reports on.

As for United Airlines, this bunch would have to be the worst in the world and I say that after 39 years of flying around the world on various airlines, including Nigerian Airlines ( their only 707 at the time, blew up mid flight, and one of the emergency exit doors used to whistle because it had a pressure leak, so if you kicked it frequently, the whistling would stop!) and little tiny prop jobs flying into the Sahara Desert.

Also, United Airlines managed to break an unbreakable suitcase of mine, shows how hard they tried!!!.

[scotbeve]

Used to like Thai Airways, but went off them on a couple of business class trips from New Zealand to Paris, when I needed a first-aid kit, and there was not one to be found. When it was eventually found, it had nothing in it other than a bandage and a pair of scissors.

Have now stopped flying with this lot and have had good experiences on Qantas, Air New Zealand, JetStar and Singapore airlines. JAL has also been good, however have yet to try Malaysian Airllines, Etihad and Emirates, all of which I have had good reports on.

As for United Airlines, this bunch would have to be the worst in the world and I say that after 39 years of flying around the world on various airlines, including Nigerian Airlines ( their only 707 at the time, blew up mid flight, and one of the emergency exit doors used to whistle because it had a pressure leak, so if you kicked it frequently, the whistling would stop!) and little tiny prop jobs flying into the Sahara Desert.

Also, United Airlines managed to break an unbreakable suitcase of mine, shows how hard they tried!!!.

BA broke my bag twice... must've fallen off.... Also, Emirates were pleasant... Had a cruppy trip to the US in Dec. , duly complained, then they booked us (X4) in Biz class JFK-NRT on the return trip... maybe we should all sound off loud enough...... in unison.

[Spalpeen]

Thai were not disadvantaged by the high fuel prices last year. Every airline was exposed to the same market. Where they went wrong is that they bought a lot of fuel in advance at the top of the market and are now competing against airlines that are buying fuel at the current low price. This is a management error.

They did not lose out due to a falling Baht. Everyone buys fuel at a dollar price and is then free to hedge, or not, against their own currency. Again, management took a decision and lost.

Finally there was the airport closure. Well you can't make money in the airline business if your hub airport closes down, can you?

Edited February 28, 2009 by Spalpeen

[eirikur3]

I'm surprised that they claim a 4.5 billion loss because of the weakening Baht. Yes, Baht has weakened against US$ , but the Baht has strengthened dramatically against so many other currencies in 2008.

I agree it seem strange, the baht has indeed been getting stronger against many big currencies. I wonder does Thai air only use US dollars when trading in foreign currencies?

[scotbeve]

Thai were not disadvantaged by the high fuel prices last year. Every airline was exposed to the same market. Where they went wrong is that they bought a lot of fuel in advance at the top of the market and are now competing against airlines that are buying fuel at the current low price. This is a management error.

They did not lose out due to a falling Baht. Everyone buys fuel at a dollar price and is then free to hedge, or not, against their own currency. Again, management took a decision and lost.

Finally there was the airport closure. Well you can't make money in the airline business if your hub airport closes down, can you?

Correct in one! That fuel hedging exercise broke their bank! And the airport closure (which was all sanook-sanan) was a loss of 200,000 mil Baht (wasn't it?? Or is there more to come (of course)) which in fact nobody is accountable for and is now to be found under the carpet with all the other dirty rubbish....

[ekkamai]

they are always much more expensive, even with their pseudo promotional prices

nobody likes to pay too much

service ? 2 hot mails, some water and sitting 12 hours on ur ass

Ok then, in the airline industry nowadays no-one sells lobster for a dollar. When you fly economy you get what you pay for.

[sanmiguel]

I'm surprised that they claim a 4.5 billion loss because of the weakening Baht. Yes, Baht has weakened against US$ , but the Baht has strengthened dramatically against so many other currencies in 2008.

I agree it seem strange, the baht has indeed been getting stronger against many big currencies. I wonder does Thai air only use US dollars when trading in foreign currencies?

I couldnt understand that comment, surely a weaker baht (which it isnt) is good for the bottom line if you get paid in foreign currencies. Maybe just a bad bit of journalism.

[yumidesign]

wow if the 2008 result is bad just hang on to your hats for 2009, this airline is seriously broke

[Birdman]

...it will be back to normal...in 2 years from now...if there will be no world war 3...

[think_too_mut]

Thai Airways Makes Huge Loss

BANGKOK: -- Flag carrier Thai Airways posted a huge loss of 21.3 billion baht (592 million dollars) in 2008 because of high fuel prices and protests that briefly shuttered Bangkok's airports, the company said.

-- AFP 2009-02-28

Is that all? Another source doubled the loss:

Thai Airways posts $918m loss

Posted 1 hour 13 minutes ago

The national airline of Thailand, Thai Airways, has posted a loss of more than $900 million - its first annual loss in 43 years.

The carrier says the plunge was due to rising jet fuel prices, the depreciation of the Thai baht and the political protests that briefly shut down Bangkok's airports last year.

The airline is currently in talks with the Thai Government over a rescue package.

[animatic]

None of this is surprising,

except the alleged 20 billion loss to the airport closure turning into complete hyperbole.

The majority of loses now correctly blamed on currency exchanges, OIL prices

and general down turn world wide. The later three totally expected.

No doubt they saw this coming and tried to shift a bit of blame to the take over,

which they now don't hardly calculate in. All this not much different than many

other large companies at this point world wide.

And so it goes.

[CHAIYES]

I'm surprised that they claim a 4.5 billion loss because of the weakening Baht. Yes, Baht has weakened against US$ , but the Baht has strengthened dramatically against so many other currencies in 2008.

In 2008 fuel prices skyrocketed and fuel is USD based. Hence, this part of their loss. By no means do I think this is a well run airline, just that their claim of the exchange loss is valid.

Fuel price was high for the months June through to October peaking at USD147, then dropped sharply. Major airlines usually hedge their fuel so the cost of fuel over a relatively short period of time would be insignificant IMO.

TG operations has always been very inefficient dispite their low overhead costs compared to similar size airlines.

Govt should bail them out then direct TG to lower the airfares to/from Thailand as part of the tourism promotion gig....

[spidermike007]

It is rather shocking, and fairly typical, that Thai Airways would blame the losses on outside factors. Certainly, the airport shutdown hurt them. Certainly the governments inability to prevent what has to be the largest single devastating event in the history of Thai tourism has created a difficult environment for Thai Airways. But, what have they been doing to help themselves. To complain of losses due to the weakening baht is ludicrous. If anything the baht is much, much stronger that it should be, or will be in the near term. Also, though the say they introduced some recent discounts, I cannot find them anywhere. I went online the day after they announced them, and could not find them anywhere. Thai Airways simply is not competitive. They are not competitive with their domestic, or their international fares. I fly EVA Air, as I think they are as good, and their business class on their new 777's is excellent. Thai charges 75% more for the same flight from Bangkok to Los Angeles. Am I going to pay 88,000 baht on EVA, or 140,000 baht on Thai? Recently, I was able to get this fare for 81,000 baht! on sale. How about the Samui-Bangkok route? Do I pay 3,075 baht on Bangkok Air, or 3,800 baht for the same sector, on Thai? I would rather support Thai, as they are local. But, at what cost? If they are serious about turning this around, and flying without 40-50% of their seats empty, then lower the prices, and offer better service. Running an airline is fairly simple. You offer a great product, for a good price. Thai offers neither. Thai suffered huge losses by hedging incorrectly on fuel, when it was super high. Who's fault is that? Should the Thai government and people have to pay for such a poor show of judgment? Korn is correct to demand a business plan that makes sense. Thai has benefited from alot of entitlement for a long time. Now it is time to grow up, and do a good job, or suffer the cost of not doing so.

Mike Macarelli

Koh Samui

Edited February 28, 2009 by spidermike007

[scotbeve]

Thai Airways Makes Huge Loss

BANGKOK: -- Flag carrier Thai Airways posted a huge loss of 21.3 billion baht (592 million dollars) in 2008 because of high fuel prices and protests that briefly shuttered Bangkok's airports, the company said.

-- AFP 2009-02-28

Is that all? Another source doubled the loss:

Thai Airways posts $918m loss

Posted 1 hour 13 minutes ago

The national airline of Thailand, Thai Airways, has posted a loss of more than $900 million - its first annual loss in 43 years.

The carrier says the plunge was due to rising jet fuel prices, the depreciation of the Thai baht and the political protests that briefly shut down Bangkok's airports last year.

The airline is currently in talks with the Thai Government over a rescue package.

I suspect there's even more to come with the loss of confidence in general that others have of Thailand.

[StrandedBusinessPerson]

This is a sad story in many respects as pointed out by so many. I just wanted to say thank u Thai air for putting me up in a 5-star recently during the yellow revolution at the airport. it was the decent and right thing to do. I cant imagine an American airline ever doing that in a similar circumstance, albeit they should be prepared for it soon. I live in Nepal and this is very bad news for us if it means a cut in service or rise in price to this airline-locked country. Our only other alternative to BKK would be RNA where the mechanics sacrifice goats to keep the planes afloat, no lie. And while the service on RNA still beats American Domestic, the only two planes they own are so old you can almost feel the breeze coming thru the walls at 30,000ft. Well, best of luck to Thai during the proceeding global meltdown...

[bobrcb]

I travel with Thai from London 5-6 times per year. My regular travel has earned a gold card which gives me certain benefits before boarding, but once on board I am treated the same as other economy passengers. Although I have noticed a slight deterioration of on-board service, this is no doubt due to trying to cut expenses, Nevertheless, what other airline offers a complimentary cognac to all economy passengers after the main meal? Also, Thai are very quick with a drink, service starting as soon as the fasten seat belt goes out after take-off. Furthermore, I find Thai seats more comfortable - I believe 33 inches between seats - but more importantly, Thai seats do not have bars at the bottom, enabling me to fully stretch out my 6'2'' length out on overnight flights. Yes, Thai is more expensive than other airlines, but who wants to spend 2-3 hours or more in the middle east, or worse, to change planes at some unearthly hour? I think it is well worth paying an extra £100 for the better comfort and service, much of which I can claw back with the 'free' flight, currently about £240, with taxes and fuel charges, for every 5 paid for tickets. None of the other direct flight airlines can beat that.

[Dap]

Thai Airways Makes Huge Loss

BANGKOK: -- Flag carrier Thai Airways posted a huge loss of 21.3 billion baht (592 million dollars) in 2008 because of high fuel prices and protests that briefly shuttered Bangkok's airports, the company said.

The airline made a profit of 4.4 billion baht in 2007, and last year's plunge was the company's first annual loss in 43 years.

"For the fiscal year 2008 Thai Airways International continues to encounter crises such as the continuing sharp rise of jet fuel price, the global economic slowdown as well as the political unrest in the country," the airline said.

In the statement released late Friday, Thai Airways also blamed foreign exchange losses due to the weakening of the Thai baht.

The national carrier reported a 1.6 percent year-on-year increase in its total revenue to 200.1 billion baht, but its operating expenses were up 10.8 percent to 206.8 billion baht.

The airline also reported foreign exchange losses of 4.5 billion baht.

Thai Airways is currently in talks with the government over a rescue package to help revive the struggling carrier's finances.

Finance Minister Korn Chatikavanij has insisted the airline must submit a detailed recovery plan before it receives taxpayer funds.

Thai Airways officials have previously said that the company lost about 20 billion baht when protesters trying to topple the last government seized and shut down Bangkok's two airports for a week in late November to early December.

The occupation stranded around 350,000 passengers in Thailand and battered the kingdom's vital tourism industry.

In January, Thai Airways said it would ask for a delay in the delivery of six A330 aircraft from European aircraft manufacturer Airbus due to a shortage of cash.

-- AFP 2009-02-28

Oddly enough, no mention of what extremely poor service and/or internal nepotism/corruption may have added to their woes.

[londonthai]

I think their loses are exagerated to get more concessions fromt the govenment - blaming their poor performance on fuel prices, airport clousure and economic downturn is radiculous, as all other airlines in Bangkok and in the world experienced same conditions and still made some profit.

Doesn't sound true that within a year their faith changed so dramatically from 4.4 bln profit to 21.3 bln loss - anyhow, if for 43 years they were making profit for the state, not the state should bail them out. Good prospects for the foreigners using TG, but the local taxpayer will foot the bill.

[think_too_mut]

Running an airline is fairly simple.

Maybe it's not. All airline businesses in the world are the worst managed of all possible businesses.

Thai Airways is just another one to confirm that.

Perhaps, it's not easy in the first place.

[redscouse]

would any mods like to explain why my post on page one has been edited, and more to the point why doesn't it say at the bottom of the post that it has been edited. My comments were factual and were in no way libellous so it seems the edit is unwarranted. Please respond or I imagine it has been edited in error and I can repost my comments with links to press reports to back my claim

thanks

[UtopiaFlorida]

I'm surprised that they claim a 4.5 billion loss because of the weakening Baht. Yes, Baht has weakened against US$ , but the Baht has strengthened dramatically against so many other currencies in 2008.

The magic word is leverage. In the Forex Spot market you can buy / sell USD / Bath with leverage up to 100 %. This means, investing $1000 as margin

can get you $100,000 in a Forex position. When you do the math and you wrongly speculate your loss can explode like a rocket. That's the same reason

what brought many banks into trouble these days. Too much playing with leveraged money

[SmugFarangBore]

Strange, there's no mention in the article of the obscene bonuses, several times in excess of last year's amount, that the board of directors recently gave themselves that had to be subsequently blocked by an injunction from the courts brought by legal action by shareholders.

While TG feeds the greedy pigs of privileged, influencial and powerful Thais before making paying customers a priority they will remain a substandard loss making business.

The Thai Government will continue to bail them out to the tune of taxpayer billions for the prestige of having a 'National Carrier'.

As I pay taxes in Thailand I find their conduct rather offensive TBH.

[annabel]

I like their service to the States, but I have noticed a decline somewhat in the last two years... Now I often find them to be pretty expensive compared to other airlines. I can't stand AirAsia, but I haven't seen Thai close to them in price for some time on the domestic end.

Their frequent flyer program isn't good either.

Depends what you are comparing BA to when flying to the States. I once flew United from LA to San Francisco, and my one United experience, never to be repeated, was so much more than enough I could write a book about it

BA staff are indifferent, but United staff are deliberately rude. This pretty much sums them up - http://www.untied.com/ - thought it was a joke at first, until I flew with them. Even the budget Aeroflot flight that I once made as an impoverished backpacker - London to Bangkok (via Moscow, Karachi, Tashkent, Delhi and finally Bangkok) in 1988 was a more pleasant experience.

I can't stand United, I flew a United operated ANA flight from NRT to LAX and the cabin service was the most horrible I have ever experienced on an International flight, felt like an American domestic flight. Rude employees, uncomfortable seats, horrible entertainment... YUCK! Bunch of old, unattractive, rude American ladies... I love my wife but the scenery is much better on the Asian airliners.

Korean Air used to be great for me, but they have raised prices and cut back on service... Never-mind the time they put me, having the highest available sky team frequent flyer designation and having flown business to Korea, behind schedule 24 hours without offering me a hotel, and rerouting me to Chicago on Economy (partly my choice.) I never flew Korean Again after that..

I recently flew EVA airlines and was really pleased..

United Airlines, American Airlines .....any US airline are dreadful and totally rude and horrible...I am going back 10 years when I flew United from India to New York, and only because it was an organized trip and I couldn't chose another airline ....Absolutely horrible and yes, so rude and crass....and unfortunately , I had to fly with them quite a few more times thereafter and the same .///......rude, make you fell like they are doing YOU a favor for flying with them ....and then experienced American Airlines who were just as bad ....I think all us airlines are the same ....just out right rude and full of frustrated staff who take it out on the customers....I avoid them like the plague ////

I like Thai Airways but do not understand their loss claim ....I have had enough flights with them over the past years to get a gold card having lived in India and having traveled to and fro at least 10 times a year .....and their flights were always full and their rates were, if I bought the ticket here in Thailand, always 50% more of what I paid when buying the ticket in India .....even today , wherin all airlines have reduced their prices , Thai is still quoting as much as 100% more than the rate for the same routing as other airlines ....so no, I am not flying with Thai for the past year because of that and sadly I have lost my gold card status but have saved a lot of money ....It's too bad cause i do like them even thought heir flights to India are on their oldest and very uncomfortable planes they have and the meals are boring and always the same ....my guess is they figure India is not worth using good planes and / or good meals as it 's a shit country ....I do feel there is a big prejudice there ....BUT anyway the staff are always quite pleasant and the journey hassle free......Traveling used to be fun and something I really always looked forward to....not anymore ...

[steve187]

When using Thai I always find that the service and food is very good, the seats comfortable with good leg room. The down side is the age of the 747's with no seat back tv's,

[ozzieovaseas]

Would you fly 'em?

Yes I would. So do millions of others.

If one checks the online airlines rating sites, Thai Air consistently rates in the top ten of international carriers.

If thats the case then these "online airlines rating sites" must be getting some very sweet "Thai style tea money"....maybe thats where all the pofits are gone.