Is Buying Property In Bangkok A Good Investment?

[LooseCannon]

Oz is down 30% I can assure you. The markets tell the truth both USA and oz property sectors smashed! however the OP rightly is asking about BKK and i did derail a little, its just that I think more upside buying O/S if you can and sell for capitol gains and rent it out in mean time. But I dont know where Op is from ,if he wants to invest or buy to live long time. A lot of options out there and I would consider every single one.

Where?

Capital city house prices still way too high & in some cheaper suburbs have been increasing as a result of the Govt. first home buyers grant. At the moment only a few high end suburbs ($1000,000+ houses) have had significant decline, the suburb of Balwyn in Melbourne being the largest fall @ 20%.

From BIS Shrapnel Residential Proprty Index Report 2009.....

No figures for Melbourne but from memory, had a +0.7% increase averaged accross the city.

I think at the end of this year there could be some good opportunities for residential property for people with cash. I will be waiting to see what happens & where interest rates go (& they will go up).

Maybe you are referring to the Listed Property trusts?

Listed Property Trusts on the ASX have taken a massive hit (up to 50%), but these are made up of commercial properties (whether under construction, leased or a combination) & IMO nobody in their right mind would touch these at this point of time.

One area of concern for Australians are the Unlisted Property Trusts which are still at their pre-crash value due to the fact that they are valued only periodically (often just once a year).

Market valuations are not used, but rather discounted cash flows & net present value of income flows using capitalisation rates (future cash & income flows are little more than guesswork).

Do you have to worry?

If you have any money tied up in an Australian Superannuation fund - yes. Some super fund investment options can have up to 25% of their asset mix in these Unlisted Property Trusts.

These trusts will come up for valuation at the end of this financial year (30 June) & it would be prudent to expect a similar loss as the Listed trusts, because there is very little difference between them.

If I could move my money out of my fund I would, but as not at retirement age I do not have that option. The alternative is to move it to an investment option that minimizes your exposure to these trusts - these are usually the 'conservative' low growth or capital guaranteed options.

To the OP - sorry got a bit sidetracked.

Investment property in Bangkok? - no, for all the reasons given by previous posters.

If you want an investment property not in the UK, there would be a lot of places worse than Australia.

Remember - any financial advice given is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[xbusman]

xbusman, where do you come up with such utter tripe?

Let's take a look at your assertion. You reckon that a return of 1% per month on the value of a property is good. Good? It's <deleted>' remarkable. 12% per year? Dream on. That means that my ex's 350k house in England would rent at 3500 a month. I think not. Or, my $450k house in Texas at $4500. Or, my 10M baht condo in BKK at 100K. I <deleted>' wish. I flogged a house in California once for way over $700k and I can assure you that if I could have got $7000 a month for renting it I would never have sold it. PLEASE show me a market where you can get a 12% return. Not possible, unless your name is Peter Rachman (perhaps you need to look him up). My son rents in London now, and the total rent paid for a property worth 400K is 2000 quid a month. Or, 0.5%. He has done the same for years, in various properties, and the number has always been there or thereabouts. 0.5%. To my absolute knowledge for the past 5 years the number in BKK has also been 0.5% perhaps a little more, but nowhere near 1%. Look, a return of 6% on a capital investment that (in the long run) is increasing in value is bloody good. 12% is dreamland.

After such a nasty and ignorant post, I have been waiting patiently in my room hoping your brilliance will light the way for this new age of investment. Unfortunately, after purging, you seem to have emptied what little sense you had in your incoherent rantings. I am guessing you are either at best a troll or at worst some idiot curmudgeon that needed venting.

I thought I would go over your post carefully and see if there was anything that made sense, new math that could lift up the world economic order from the distress you and your ilk seemed to have caused.

Lets work through your first assertion that 12% is "<deleted>' remarkable" as you put it. After vacancies, taxes, management fees, remodel costs between renters, and insurance we are lucky to see a 6% net out of that 12% gross. When we look at the wide range of investments offering 6% for nothing more than handing the cash over, the only reason to buy real estate is the sometime vain hope it might appreciate in line with inflation. That is not a very good bet today but it was in the past. For that meager appreciation we have to put up with crazy renters, idiot neighbors, building inspectors, tax auditors and the raft of problems that comes from owning property quite unlike owning a tax free municipal bond.

If you are grossing 6%, you could be netting as low as 2 or 3% on the same order of a bank deposit. If so, you are as stupid as your post indicates.

Your second point is that I asserted you should get a 1% return on whatever you paid for a property. I dont think I need to comment on how utterly stupid that is but since you lowered yourself to that level I will help you out. The rule of thumb is to look for property you can buy at 100 times rent so you can earn 1% a month. Not to buy anything in a bubble and place an unrealistic rent on it. If you dont get that point, well I dont need to say more do I. On review of your properties, I would agree that if they were bought for investment purposes then indeed, you did a really really stupid investment. If they were bought for living, then they sound like beautiful homes that should be able to be resold for a profit by your heirs. Your son sounds infinitely smarter than you, he is enjoying reasonable rentals from other brilliant investors.

As for your personal references it seems you have an anal fixation. I would have that looked at.

The sad part is that banks listened to idiots like you for far too many years. Easy money, asset value will always increase, get rich quick without any more effort than signing a piece of paper and waiting for the millions. Now we are being asked to pay for that lunacy. Thanks for your comments, your destructive habits and worthless advice but next time, keep it to yourself.

[colibra]

Hey guys. I'm considering buying property out here in Thailand. BUt have no idea if it's a good investment.

What areas of bangkok will be good to buy property?

Is it easy to sell on?

Can you make money on it?

what about elsewhere in thai;and? Samui? kho Chang?

Please enlighten me. I live and work out here but have no clue about this stuff.

spurs

Only if you buy a boat at the same time bangkok is sinking. Last I heard at the rate of about 3 inches a year now. So it has increased.

[mommysboy]

No it isn't.

[tjo o tjim]

Interesting discussion. I think the difference is between investing and parking money for leveraged returns.

Finding a place where you can get 1% of purchase price in rent today is pretty hard... which is why I rent. Where I am staying now, the ratio is closer to 450. At 200, I might buy just to get things in my own control, but it isn't a real investment.

[richm7]

xbusman, where do you come up with such utter tripe?

Let's take a look at your assertion. You reckon that a return of 1% per month on the value of a property is good. Good? It's <deleted>' remarkable. 12% per year? Dream on. That means that my ex's 350k house in England would rent at 3500 a month. I think not. Or, my $450k house in Texas at $4500. Or, my 10M baht condo in BKK at 100K. I <deleted>' wish. I flogged a house in California once for way over $700k and I can assure you that if I could have got $7000 a month for renting it I would never have sold it. PLEASE show me a market where you can get a 12% return. Not possible, unless your name is Peter Rachman (perhaps you need to look him up). My son rents in London now, and the total rent paid for a property worth 400K is 2000 quid a month. Or, 0.5%. He has done the same for years, in various properties, and the number has always been there or thereabouts. 0.5%. To my absolute knowledge for the past 5 years the number in BKK has also been 0.5% perhaps a little more, but nowhere near 1%. Look, a return of 6% on a capital investment that (in the long run) is increasing in value is bloody good. 12% is dreamland.

After such a nasty and ignorant post, I have been waiting patiently in my room hoping your brilliance will light the way for this new age of investment. Unfortunately, after purging, you seem to have emptied what little sense you had in your incoherent rantings. I am guessing you are either at best a troll or at worst some idiot curmudgeon that needed venting.

I thought I would go over your post carefully and see if there was anything that made sense, new math that could lift up the world economic order from the distress you and your ilk seemed to have caused.

Lets work through your first assertion that 12% is "<deleted>' remarkable" as you put it. After vacancies, taxes, management fees, remodel costs between renters, and insurance we are lucky to see a 6% net out of that 12% gross. When we look at the wide range of investments offering 6% for nothing more than handing the cash over, the only reason to buy real estate is the sometime vain hope it might appreciate in line with inflation. That is not a very good bet today but it was in the past. For that meager appreciation we have to put up with crazy renters, idiot neighbors, building inspectors, tax auditors and the raft of problems that comes from owning property quite unlike owning a tax free municipal bond.

If you are grossing 6%, you could be netting as low as 2 or 3% on the same order of a bank deposit. If so, you are as stupid as your post indicates.

Your second point is that I asserted you should get a 1% return on whatever you paid for a property. I dont think I need to comment on how utterly stupid that is but since you lowered yourself to that level I will help you out. The rule of thumb is to look for property you can buy at 100 times rent so you can earn 1% a month. Not to buy anything in a bubble and place an unrealistic rent on it. If you dont get that point, well I dont need to say more do I. On review of your properties, I would agree that if they were bought for investment purposes then indeed, you did a really really stupid investment. If they were bought for living, then they sound like beautiful homes that should be able to be resold for a profit by your heirs. Your son sounds infinitely smarter than you, he is enjoying reasonable rentals from other brilliant investors.

As for your personal references it seems you have an anal fixation. I would have that looked at.

The sad part is that banks listened to idiots like you for far too many years. Easy money, asset value will always increase, get rich quick without any more effort than signing a piece of paper and waiting for the millions. Now we are being asked to pay for that lunacy. Thanks for your comments, your destructive habits and worthless advice but next time, keep it to yourself.

Sorry for the delay. I have better things to do than worry about your latest diatribe.

For a start you are still on your 12% (gross - I never said it was anything else) return on rental property. And yes, you do need to comment on how utterly stupid that is, because you continue to make that utterly stupid claim (along with all your other claims - you sure you're not Peter Rachman?). What is all this diversionary twaddle about buying in a bubble? Oh, I get it, you mean 1% on YOUR valuation of the property, not its actual selling price! So, you buy a place for $200k, value it at $100K then claim that $12k a year rent is 1% per month. Brilliant, Einstein. O.K. let's get serious. You say " look for property you can buy at 100 times rent so you can earn 1% a month." Good idea, just show me where and I'm in like Flint. Are you seriously suggesting that property is generally available at a 100 times multiplier of its monthly rental value? Note I said generally, not exceptionally. So, a 50k a month condo in BKK can be snapped up for 5M, or a $2000/month house in the US for $200K? You know it's illegal to smoke that stuff in Thailand. I still maintain your numbers are BS and apart from claiming to be some super experienced speculator you fail to back up a dam_n thing you say. I'm Superman and have a 15 inch todger; prove me a liar. I argue that my position is just common sense and any reader should conclude that himself without me needing to back it up.

Anyway, I'll close on some facts. They must be true because I got them from the Daily Telegraph, and as we all know, British newspapers only report facts. The current rental return on UK property (which experts seem to agree is currently "right priced" though, due to overshoot, will drop lower before setlling about where it is now) is 3.6%. That's 0.3% per month, a very long way from your 1%. Furthermore, during the housing peak it was 2.8%, which is not totally unexpected. So Mr. Expert, show me REAL property that rents for 12% of its market value. I want in.

Finally, my apologies for being an idiot and nasty and ignorant. I bow oh mighty one to your obviously superior intelligence, command of the English language and ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. However, should you continue to claim a 12% return (and yes Einstein, we're all smart enough to understand that is gross, and we all know what gross means) I will call you a <deleted>' liar and demand you show me the money. Where, when and full details please. Else, <deleted>.

[ernest1966]

I really don't know richm7, nor xbusman.

Just reading the posts it's like the old "my dads better than your dad" , richm7 you're coming accross like SF drag queen on speed.

A discussion is not a discussion, when you start to swear at your opponent. Thats just being childish, it also points out you've run out of valid points to make.

And stop the "I've got more money than you" bragging, jesus.

E

[Jake1]

So Mr. Expert, show me REAL property that rents for 12% of its market value. I want in.

I'll sell you a Condo in NC, USA that rents for $750 for $75,000

[midas]

Amateurs indeed. You clown. You prattle on like some bleeding expert when your lead in is total <deleted>.

Not a mate of that other idiot Midas are you? He is fond of dropping "facts" into his posts that seem to emanate from somewhere south of his balls too. Pull that "rule of thumb" from up your arse, you pompous clown.

richm7 well you are certainly no real estate expert either - we established

just how dumb and ignorant you are in another thread about selling high-end condominiums

[hhgz]

"I'm considering buying property out here in Thailand. BUt have no idea if it's a good investment. I live and work out here but have no clue about this stuff."

You live our here, and you don't know what's what? You need to assess your level of risk, and spend some time educating yourself. We can't do that for you.

[xbusman]

Finally, my apologies for being an idiot and nasty and ignorant. I bow oh mighty one to your obviously superior intelligence, command of the English language and ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. However, should you continue to claim a 12% return (and yes Einstein, we're all smart enough to understand that is gross, and we all know what gross means) I will call you a <deleted>' liar and demand you show me the money. Where, when and full details please. Else, <deleted>.

Your apology is accepted, you are quite the idiot second only to your ignorance.

Finding property at 100 times rent is taking a lot of effort as earning money usually does. Bank forclosures in Southern California and Miami are beginning to hit the numbers. In LA we are buying properties that were listed last year at $800,000 for $200,000 and getting just under $2000 a month in rent.

Its obvious you are completely ignorant of math and real estate, so vent your vitriole somewhere you have some credibility.

[Minus]

To close this thread once and for all, the answer to the question is : NO.

Very simply because there is absolutely no resale market for condos in Thailand.

As simple as that.

[trogers]

There are many here who are very negative about investing in anything. They rather sit on their bank books and watch cable TV.

You used the word "invest".

You need to identify a few things before looking to invest: time frame, risk, liquidity, and currency exchange risk.

If you have hard cash, and is not relying on bank financing then your risk is reduced as you can wait it out should things not working out to schedule. If you have only seed money and need financing, that's a different matter.

There are still investment opportunites in the property market, but the keywords are long term, hard cash, and location, location and location.

Some will ask, "Who will you resell the property to?" My answer would be, "I am not a property trader - doing buying and selling".

Look at some of the posts at the Real Estate sub-section of this forum.

[mjohnson282]

xbusman, where do you come up with such utter tripe?

Let's take a look at your assertion. You reckon that a return of 1% per month on the value of a property is good. Good? It's <deleted>' remarkable. 12% per year? Dream on. That means that my ex's 350k house in England would rent at 3500 a month. I think not. Or, my $450k house in Texas at $4500. Or, my 10M baht condo in BKK at 100K. I <deleted>' wish. I flogged a house in California once for way over $700k and I can assure you that if I could have got $7000 a month for renting it I would never have sold it. PLEASE show me a market where you can get a 12% return. Not possible, unless your name is Peter Rachman (perhaps you need to look him up). My son rents in London now, and the total rent paid for a property worth 400K is 2000 quid a month. Or, 0.5%. He has done the same for years, in various properties, and the number has always been there or thereabouts. 0.5%. To my absolute knowledge for the past 5 years the number in BKK has also been 0.5% perhaps a little more, but nowhere near 1%. Look, a return of 6% on a capital investment that (in the long run) is increasing in value is bloody good. 12% is dreamland.

After such a nasty and ignorant post, I have been waiting patiently in my room hoping your brilliance will light the way for this new age of investment. Unfortunately, after purging, you seem to have emptied what little sense you had in your incoherent rantings. I am guessing you are either at best a troll or at worst some idiot curmudgeon that needed venting.

I thought I would go over your post carefully and see if there was anything that made sense, new math that could lift up the world economic order from the distress you and your ilk seemed to have caused.

Lets work through your first assertion that 12% is "<deleted>' remarkable" as you put it. After vacancies, taxes, management fees, remodel costs between renters, and insurance we are lucky to see a 6% net out of that 12% gross. When we look at the wide range of investments offering 6% for nothing more than handing the cash over, the only reason to buy real estate is the sometime vain hope it might appreciate in line with inflation. That is not a very good bet today but it was in the past. For that meager appreciation we have to put up with crazy renters, idiot neighbors, building inspectors, tax auditors and the raft of problems that comes from owning property quite unlike owning a tax free municipal bond.

If you are grossing 6%, you could be netting as low as 2 or 3% on the same order of a bank deposit. If so, you are as stupid as your post indicates.

Your second point is that I asserted you should get a 1% return on whatever you paid for a property. I dont think I need to comment on how utterly stupid that is but since you lowered yourself to that level I will help you out. The rule of thumb is to look for property you can buy at 100 times rent so you can earn 1% a month. Not to buy anything in a bubble and place an unrealistic rent on it. If you dont get that point, well I dont need to say more do I. On review of your properties, I would agree that if they were bought for investment purposes then indeed, you did a really really stupid investment. If they were bought for living, then they sound like beautiful homes that should be able to be resold for a profit by your heirs. Your son sounds infinitely smarter than you, he is enjoying reasonable rentals from other brilliant investors.

As for your personal references it seems you have an anal fixation. I would have that looked at.

The sad part is that banks listened to idiots like you for far too many years. Easy money, asset value will always increase, get rich quick without any more effort than signing a piece of paper and waiting for the millions. Now we are being asked to pay for that lunacy. Thanks for your comments, your destructive habits and worthless advice but next time, keep it to yourself.

Sorry for the delay. I have better things to do than worry about your latest diatribe.

For a start you are still on your 12% (gross - I never said it was anything else) return on rental property. And yes, you do need to comment on how utterly stupid that is, because you continue to make that utterly stupid claim (along with all your other claims - you sure you're not Peter Rachman?). What is all this diversionary twaddle about buying in a bubble? Oh, I get it, you mean 1% on YOUR valuation of the property, not its actual selling price! So, you buy a place for $200k, value it at $100K then claim that $12k a year rent is 1% per month. Brilliant, Einstein. O.K. let's get serious. You say " look for property you can buy at 100 times rent so you can earn 1% a month." Good idea, just show me where and I'm in like Flint. Are you seriously suggesting that property is generally available at a 100 times multiplier of its monthly rental value? Note I said generally, not exceptionally. So, a 50k a month condo in BKK can be snapped up for 5M, or a $2000/month house in the US for $200K? You know it's illegal to smoke that stuff in Thailand. I still maintain your numbers are BS and apart from claiming to be some super experienced speculator you fail to back up a dam_n thing you say. I'm Superman and have a 15 inch todger; prove me a liar. I argue that my position is just common sense and any reader should conclude that himself without me needing to back it up.

Anyway, I'll close on some facts. They must be true because I got them from the Daily Telegraph, and as we all know, British newspapers only report facts. The current rental return on UK property (which experts seem to agree is currently "right priced" though, due to overshoot, will drop lower before setlling about where it is now) is 3.6%. That's 0.3% per month, a very long way from your 1%. Furthermore, during the housing peak it was 2.8%, which is not totally unexpected. So Mr. Expert, show me REAL property that rents for 12% of its market value. I want in.

Finally, my apologies for being an idiot and nasty and ignorant. I bow oh mighty one to your obviously superior intelligence, command of the English language and ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. However, should you continue to claim a 12% return (and yes Einstein, we're all smart enough to understand that is gross, and we all know what gross means) I will call you a <deleted>' liar and demand you show me the money. Where, when and full details please. Else, <deleted>.

I think xbusman was trying to simplify the process since the original poster is new to real estate. Gross Rent Multipliers are the most simplistic way of valuing the income side of any investment property. I think it is more common to view it on an annual basis but the equation results in the same answer. I have seen very low multipliers in the range of 4-6x gross annual (demographically challenged area, economic obsolescence, high vacancy/credit loss etc...) all the way up to 20x (typically beach areas, Beverly Hills, West Hollywood etc...). Never really used it for condo purchases as the few I bought in the early 1990s were bought for appreciation with little consideration given to the income. They were at such a substantial discount to replacement cost because they were REO (bank owned) and it was really a short term hold.

Most people just use a sales comparison approach (e.g. the typical condo buyer). As previously stated a GRM will vary based on number of factors including but not limited to location, construction quality and market conditions. I rarely used it as anything but a check against other methods of valuation. Since he owned multi-family units (apartment buildings typically over 5 units) I assume he used at the minimum a static pro forma cap rate analysis and/or a discounted cash flow model with a 3-5 year hold. The problem with a GRM or sales comparison is the absence of debt in the analysis. The availability and low cost of debt is really what fueled the spike in pricing of all sectors of real estate.

I assume he sold for the same reasons I did. These metrics were extremely distorted over the past 5 years.

My first piece of advice would be to wait things are going to get much worse in real estate before they get better. This should not stop you from looking as that helps the learning process. If you really want to buy something at this point in the cycle I would give most consideration as to discount to replacement cost. Or what are you paying compared to what it cost to build new.

Second, I would underwrite the downside analysis and be prepared for it. When you do feel like it is time to buy do it with a partner, someone you know will work, it is easier to share the burden. I would also recommend you a 3-6 unit building. Owning one off condos all over a city can become quite a burden. Absentee ownership is typically a leading cause of a failed real estate investment. It may have been said in this thread but if possible try to buy less than 1 hour drive from your home.

Good luck.

[trogers]

Second, I would underwrite the downside analysis and be prepared for it. When you do feel like it is time to buy do it with a partner, someone you know will work, it is easier to share the burden. I would also recommend you a 3-6 unit building. Owning one off condos all over a city can become quite a burden. Absentee ownership is typically a leading cause of a failed real estate investment. It may have been said in this thread but if possible try to buy less than 1 hour drive from your home.

That's why I am buying along a 3 km stretch of Sukhumvit from Asoke to Prakanong - only 15 mins between the 2 ends by BTS.

[yabaaaa]

Those who bought here are still doing okay compared to the rest. Those who bought in

AUSTRALIA

UK

USA

Are totally screwed! and have dropped up to 40% and the average around 30%. USA 70% plus.

Personally Im looking at buying in Oz again, terrific interest rates and desperate owners many now retrenched cant pay mortgage. If your buying with UK or OZ $ dont even think about it with the bht where it is now

Zorro, where do you come up with such complete and utter tripe?

Lets see if we can get through such a completely misleading posting.

First, as a general rule of thumb for real estate investing a good target is to buy properties that cost 100 times rent. That ratio can go up or down a bit depending on various extraneous factors but amateurs not familiar with math would do well to use it as a benchmark. That means, if a rental for a property is 4000 zimbabwe dollars, the purchase price should be close to 4 million zimbabwe. The rental is determined by what other similar properties are renting for and an average three month vacancy between renters. Additionally, you should be careful in investing in markets that exceed 3 to 5 times the average per capita income. Think about that for a moment, if you are dealing in average property you dont want it outside what the average person can afford, right? If average properties are selling outside that ratio then that means what, you got it, Mr Bubble.

Having said the above, there are still good markets in the US, in fact some exceptionally good markets. There are also some really really bad markets. Zorro is a little prone to hyperbole with the statement of real estate dropping 70% plus in the US. There are areas such as LA and Miami that have dropped 40% and in the end probably will need to drop 70% before the ratios come into line with reality (and they will drop). There are plenty of other places where real estate is holding steady and in some cases appreciating because the ratios work, the banks were not insane, and people still need to live. However, all over the world, no matter what the valuation real or imaginary, very little is selling at any price because the banks are holding credit. WHICH IS ANTHER REASON WHY you should only buy at 100 times rent. Real estate is illiquid and when times get bad, you need someone else to pay the mortgage. If you buy in a bubble and the flipping game stops, those that paid too much end up unable to pay for the property, not enough income from the rentals. The main reason though is ROI, return on investment. You only have so much to invest, for 99.9999 percent of us its a fixed size pool of money. Buying real estate at 100 times rent is a good return on your money compared to other investments. As with any investment, dont put your eggs all in one basket however.

The OP is obviously rather new to the board and probably Thailand as this subject is done to death by the radical fringes of both sides constantly. Briefly, real estate inside rational financial guidelines is one of the best investments a person can make. One of the simplest reasons being is that banks will fund us in our purchases and give us leverage to accumulate more wealth. Real property investment, and not just boiler room flippers, takes a lot of work and does a pretty good job of tying us close to a physical location unless we want to give away a large percentage of our profit to a management company that is often more trouble than renters can be.

Where you choose to make that investment is of utmost importance in protecting your interest. There are countries that maintain a fairly strong, impartial and clear rule of law, and then there are the other banana republics where the courts are a branch of the military and completely arbitrary and almost always against the investor. Some banana republics are obvious and in the news daily, Venezuela and Zimbabwe come to mind. Others not so easy to see but are truly banana kingdoms, Thailand and Mexico fit that nicely. I would have no hesitation in England or Ozzydom. Lately I am not sure where the US falls, glad I sold my properties there two years ago, idiots!

If you decide to invest in Thailand, you have absolutely no rights here and laws change at a whim, often several times a year. There is great money to made here, but you could lose it all to the general next door if he gets upset over your dogs barking. Never invest more here than you can walk away from in anything, anytime. Real estate or a sick buffalo, it can be whisked out of reach in the fall of a gavel.

So if you have money that you can throw away and not notice it missing, and if the financial ratios are right for safe rational investing, there is plenty of property in the third world that makes good sense and good returns. If you cant throw the money away then search out and buy suitable property in the first world, where I think there are some great deals right now. Dont forget, thats not just the US and EU, it also includes some places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan. Real estate is a great way to build real wealth if you do the math and stay away from the boiler room vultures that congregate around the dead or soon to be dead. When it comes to investing, do the math and evaluate the risks, write it down on paper so you dont forget, THEN go talk to the lying thieving salesmen and banks with your paper in hand.

xbusman, where do you come up with such utter tripe?

Let's take a look at your assertion. You reckon that a return of 1% per month on the value of a property is good. Good? It's <deleted>' remarkable. 12% per year? Dream on. That means that my ex's 350k house in England would rent at 3500 a month. I think not. Or, my $450k house in Texas at $4500. Or, my 10M baht condo in BKK at 100K. I <deleted>' wish. I flogged a house in California once for way over $700k and I can assure you that if I could have got $7000 a month for renting it I would never have sold it. PLEASE show me a market where you can get a 12% return. Not possible, unless your name is Peter Rachman (perhaps you need to look him up). My son rents in London now, and the total rent paid for a property worth 400K is 2000 quid a month. Or, 0.5%. He has done the same for years, in various properties, and the number has always been there or thereabouts. 0.5%. To my absolute knowledge for the past 5 years the number in BKK has also been 0.5% perhaps a little more, but nowhere near 1%. Look, a return of 6% on a capital investment that (in the long run) is increasing in value is bloody good. 12% is dreamland.

Or my 1.2mill baht condos would rent for 12000 when they go for.......... 14000!!! it can be done!!

[xbusman]

Of course it can be done, or there would be no real investors. There is not enough stupid money to support a market without viable returns which is why it is called a...... bubble!

[yabaaaa]

To close this thread once and for all, the answer to the question is : NO.

Very simply because there is absolutely no resale market for condos in Thailand.

As simple as that.

Simply NOT TRUE!

[richm7]

Last post from me on this or any other subject. Apparently someone is a little sensitive and dislikes their pomposity being challenged so they complained to the (self appointed) moderators. No big deal, it matters not one iota to me whether I post or not. I'm sorry if I unintentionally offended anyone (yes, that DOES mean that I have intentionally offended some posters, but only because they darned well asked for it), but all I can say is that if you are going to post pompous, unsubstantiated, rude, rambling stupid submissions you have to expect to get a backlash. If you don't like it, don't post. I could not care less myself, you can call me what you like, 'cos I can give as good as I get without running crying to the moderators. So, fire away, I'll still read your mostly good posts and have a private chuckle at the few dumb ones, but I'll be buggered if I'll put up with pillocks who go crying to Mum because they don't like a post. And I'll also be buggered if I put up with some self appointed clot who issues me a warning without doing his/her research first. So, goodbye, it's been fun.

[worthingmike]

Hey guys. I'm considering buying property out here in Thailand. BUt have no idea if it's a good investment.

What areas of bangkok will be good to buy property?

Is it easy to sell on?

Can you make money on it?

what about elsewhere in thai;and? Samui? kho Chang?

Please enlighten me. I live and work out here but have no clue about this stuff.

spurs

Take your time and do your own research. You can only buy Leasehold and remember the property market is not de to “bottom” until about 2011.

It feels good to say “I own property in …………….” Try renting first, and RESEARCH

I am Married to Thai Lady and had house built, freehold in my wife’s name, that is allowed. Don’t listen to advice about forming a limited liability company to put the house in the name of company. Doesn’t work and costs a fortune in accountancy fees and to change back later is very costly and a nightmare. Including capital gains tax. Don’t go there

[MJo]

Hey guys. I'm considering buying property out here in Thailand. BUt have no idea if it's a good investment.

What areas of bangkok will be good to buy property?

Is it easy to sell on?

Can you make money on it?

what about elsewhere in thai;and? Samui? kho Chang?

Please enlighten me. I live and work out here but have no clue about this stuff.

spurs

Take your time and do your own research. You can only buy Leasehold and remember the property market is not de to "bottom" until about 2011.

It feels good to say "I own property in ……………." Try renting first, and RESEARCH

I am Married to Thai Lady and had house built, freehold in my wife's name, that is allowed. Don't listen to advice about forming a limited liability company to put the house in the name of company. Doesn't work and costs a fortune in accountancy fees and to change back later is very costly and a nightmare. Including capital gains tax. Don't go there

Slight clarification, land you can get only leasehold to your own name. Condos can be purchased freehold under 49% foreign ownership quota.

[OldenAtwoody]

wow, THis is all excellent!

Thank you all very much for your replies especially you xbusman.

I'm from the UK by the way and live and work out here. I'm looking to buy property because I'm 30, have no pension and nothing saved for the future!! I have been told that investing in property is the best, safest bet for the long run. However judging by what's been written here I trust the uk would be a better to place to buy right now.

Love to comment about selling on out here being difficult. I was thinking the same.

thanks again guys.

If anyone wants to add anyhting please do. I really have zero experience in investing...pretty much anything!

i shall check back later.

Spurs

Spurs:

You make a fatal assumption, i.e. that Asian real estate can be readily re-sold for a profit. Unlike in the West, "used" property does not change hands easily. Thais have an inherent superstition about "used" homes, i.e. ghosts, karma and similar, and Farangs tend to buy new condos (which is all you are allowed to buy by law anyway).

There is a widely held belief, a general consensus perhaps, that Thai real estate prices are far too high. This is true for Philippines as well, if you’ve looked. The prices are neither supported by supply and demand (there’s a vast oversupply of condos in both countries and a continuing tsunami of new ones being added to the market daily), nor by the ability of locals to pay for them.

I read an interesting comment today on a Philippine real estate website that suggested that the vast housing construction industry, with the requisite Farang prices, was driven principally by the corruption and theft of government funds, and that the criminals had no place to put the money other than new housing construction.

As COL Kurtz said in “Apocalypse Now”, …“And I want to remember it, I never want to forget. And then I realized--like I was shot...like I was shot with a diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, "My God, the genius of that, the genius, the will to do that." Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure.”

Of course! Filipinos could never afford these prices, nor can the average Thai!

Thus, buying something not easily re-sold, with constant competition from new merchandise on the marketplace is not a reasonable “investment”.

An investment is watching the market and buying something like a gold ETF (GLD) or an Oil ETF (DBO) because that’s where the world is going in the next 12 months. Then you readjust your portfolio. But you don’t buy a piece of illiquid real estate that requires annual taxes, maintenance & fees. Rental? Not likely, and what a headache. I just rented a lovely *beachfront* Pattaya condo for $40 a night, and the owner was HAPPY to get it.

ONLY buy a condo if you will use it more than 6 weeks a year.

Besides, I fully expect Thai (and Asian) real estate to decline significantly in the next 18 months. They will experience the same ills as the US & UK, it just hasn’t hit yet.

My friend: The very BEST advice I can give you is to find Bloomberg TV on your satellite system and simply turn it on and listen. It will be gobeldy-gook for a while, and then, you’ll start understanding it. And in a short time, you will know, with great confidence and a high probability of success, exactly what to do with your investment money. And I’ll bet you a weekend in Pattaya; it will not be in buying Asian real estate.

[prinzregent]

Hey guys. I'm considering buying property out here in Thailand. BUt have no idea if it's a good investment.

What areas of bangkok will be good to buy property?

Is it easy to sell on?

Can you make money on it?

what about elsewhere in thai;and? Samui? kho Chang?

Please enlighten me. I live and work out here but have no clue about this stuff.

spurs

BEFORE u buy everything looks perfekt.

AFTER this letter come to me:

Condition fee for decoration of condo unit of 2,000 Baht/time shall be collected from a contractor.

Condition fee for sale of condo unit shall be collected as an income of the juristic person at 3% of its selling price.

Please be informed

The condo Management Condo Chain July 10, 2009

[jcon]

In 2004 we were so old fashioned and stupid that we completely liquidated our entire holdings, at that time around 1500 living units.

You sold 1500 of your own privately-owned properties in one year? What qualifies as a 'living unit?' Condos? Houses? Just curious, as you could be one of the richest people on TV.

Somebody made an incorrect calculation (don't remember who did it) about the 4000k Zimbabwe dollar rental selling for 4 million. That's off by an order of magnitude.

Aside, my rule in HK (Central, SOHO) is about 200x rent.

In BKK, my last purchase was 120x current monthly rent. It's possible, you just need to look.... you can get 100x rent properties, but they tend to be at the low low end.... if you want to deal with that bracket of tenants, it's possible.

I'm still stunned that xbusman had 1500 properties! If I had that kind of cash I'd be on an 84' Ferretti sipping champagne 24/7 living what basically would be a 24-hour MTV music video!

[hhgz]

"That's off by an order of magnitude."

I think xbusman's claimed property holdings were off by a factor of 100.

[rufanuf]

An educational thread by any standards. The interesting thing is that Xbusmens methodology fits well with anyone who has had success in property investment. By success I mean they have liquidated their assets and made a great return. The world has been in a property bubble for over a decade and I suspect it still hasn't fully deflated.

I thought the comment from the guy who had purchased 1.2M condos and was renting out for 14000 a month was interesting, if true shows that BKK condos can be worthwhile as income investments even if they are unlikely to ever provide capital growth.

All good investments involve purchasing "income producing assets" any other form of investment is actually speculation in my view, but that can be fun to!

[neil324]

wow, THis is all excellent!

Thank you all very much for your replies especially you xbusman.

I'm from the UK by the way and live and work out here. I'm looking to buy property because I'm 30, have no pension and nothing saved for the future!! I have been told that investing in property is the best, safest bet for the long run. However judging by what's been written here I trust the uk would be a better to place to buy right now.

Love to comment about selling on out here being difficult. I was thinking the same.

thanks again guys.

If anyone wants to add anyhting please do. I really have zero experience in investing...pretty much anything!

i shall check back later.

Spurs

Spurs:

You make a fatal assumption, i.e. that Asian real estate can be readily re-sold for a profit. Unlike in the West, "used" property does not change hands easily. Thais have an inherent superstition about "used" homes, i.e. ghosts, karma and similar, and Farangs tend to buy new condos (which is all you are allowed to buy by law anyway).

There is a widely held belief, a general consensus perhaps, that Thai real estate prices are far too high. This is true for Philippines as well, if you've looked. The prices are neither supported by supply and demand (there's a vast oversupply of condos in both countries and a continuing tsunami of new ones being added to the market daily), nor by the ability of locals to pay for them.

I read an interesting comment today on a Philippine real estate website that suggested that the vast housing construction industry, with the requisite Farang prices, was driven principally by the corruption and theft of government funds, and that the criminals had no place to put the money other than new housing construction.

As COL Kurtz said in "Apocalypse Now", …"And I want to remember it, I never want to forget. And then I realized--like I was shot...like I was shot with a diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, "My God, the genius of that, the genius, the will to do that." Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure."

Of course! Filipinos could never afford these prices, nor can the average Thai!

Thus, buying something not easily re-sold, with constant competition from new merchandise on the marketplace is not a reasonable "investment".

An investment is watching the market and buying something like a gold ETF (GLD) or an Oil ETF (DBO) because that's where the world is going in the next 12 months. Then you readjust your portfolio. But you don't buy a piece of illiquid real estate that requires annual taxes, maintenance & fees. Rental? Not likely, and what a headache. I just rented a lovely *beachfront* Pattaya condo for $40 a night, and the owner was HAPPY to get it.

ONLY buy a condo if you will use it more than 6 weeks a year.

Besides, I fully expect Thai (and Asian) real estate to decline significantly in the next 18 months. They will experience the same ills as the US & UK, it just hasn't hit yet.

My friend: The very BEST advice I can give you is to find Bloomberg TV on your satellite system and simply turn it on and listen. It will be gobeldy-gook for a while, and then, you'll start understanding it. And in a short time, you will know, with great confidence and a high probability of success, exactly what to do with your investment money. And I'll bet you a weekend in Pattaya; it will not be in buying Asian real estate.

What Dubia, 70% drops there Ireland,Spain. I agree Thailand like many other places has been through the boom property period, its just behind the curve regarding the falls.

[delmersomsri]

Hey guys. I'm considering buying property out here in Thailand. BUt have no idea if it's a good investment.

What areas of bangkok will be good to buy property?

Is it easy to sell on?

Can you make money on it?

what about elsewhere in thai;and? Samui? kho Chang?

Please enlighten me. I live and work out here but have no clue about this stuff.

spurs

Do your research first! Check out the web real estate sites in Thailand. Talk to your Thai friends and neighbors. Inspect properties that interest you. Once you've found something you like and can afford talk to the other owners in that area. Don't believe anything the owner has to say. You don't have the built in protections for buyers of real estate like you would in other countries, especially the USA. Now that I've said that I have some questions for you. Will this be for your primary residence or just for investment. Flipping or Staying?! If it's going to be your residence for awhile you might accept a few flaws to the structure if you are handy with tools or will have the money for a GOOD handyman. Accept few to no flaws if for an investment and quick turn around. RUN from any property with foundation cracks and/or termite trails. Not worth the gamble!

The real estate picture here in Thailand is mirroring the problems in the US. I'm American so I can speak about it. Also before my wife's health forced us to relocate I was a licensed real estate salesman in Florida. Can't wait for the cat calls on this . Have been traveling throughout Bangkok since arriving three months ago. I've seen way too many for sale signs, empty residences in subdivisions, unsold homes in new subdivisions, darkened condo buildings, listings in area realtors being relisted as they could not find buyers the first time. I would say that it should be a buyers market here in Bangkok. However the prices seem very inflated. If you've done your homework you'll know when you've found it. Don't be pressured into any deal. Take your time.

[delmersomsri]

70% in USA . NOT! Where did you get that figure? Until the auto maker collapse Las Vegas was leading the nation at between 30-35%. Now I believe Detroit has taken the lead at 45-50%. Can't speak for UK or AUS.

There are a lot of factors as to why the real estate is in such shambles in the US. It began with the Jimmy Carter administration and his "Everyone should own a home". Don't want to bore you with "the rest of the story"(RIP Paul Harvey) about the greed,corruption, inepitude and plain stupity of our government and American people.

[xbusman]

I wish. First of all, its a family business, I am but a small part of the equation. Most of the "units" were apartments in either buildings between 60 and 100 units or complexes. We only had about 150 actual homes but "living units" does sound so much more impressive. Having 15 apartment complexes just doesnt have the same weight. I am sorry to report that honestly, when most of the houses were picked up, they were probably in the 110 to 120 times rent category, most acquired between 1970 and 1990. We are now strictly into commercial property and that has been sick sick sick. Buildings around 50,000 square feet, light industrial. We are running about 70% occupancy which keeps the lights on. Having property means having assets, not cash, which is why it can be such a bad investment, it is illiquid and hard to carry when times get bad.

As an aside, it took us around four hard years to liquidate the residential stuff and build the commercial buildings. Those were heady days though, every property we put on the market would have bidders and it would sell in days. Almost all of them ninja loans which just made us that more committed to getting out of the market.

Having said all that, I have made an offer on property in Thailand that is 90 times rent. About 60 low income units, it has been a steady return for years. Now here is the interesting part. I found an active real estate investor here to teach me the rules of the game in Thailand. He pays, are you ready, no more than 100 times rent. Its pretty interesting, if a property is taking in 50,000 baht a month, he will go into the bank that holds the NPL with 5 million baht in bags and cases. Usually, the bank wants something insane like 180 million baht or some such lunacy. He puts two or three million baht in cash on table and they have coffee and talk about the weather. The bank comes back with 90 million and they have more coffee and another million in cash goes on the table. As they get more friendly, he keeps dropping stacks on the massive pile on the table until the big boss asks for the paperwork. They consummate there immediately. He has been doing this for years and years, and he insists the key absolutely is cash that you can lay on the table. Without that, everything else is a time waster. He stops piling on at 100 times rent and gets about one out of ten properties he goes after. So thats the deal. We are going to the bank with bags of cash and going to have a shot at this property. I will let you know how it works out. Amazing Thailand.