Rak Chiang Mai 51: A Pride Or A Disgrace For Chiang Mai?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

[ never mind.. I posted this from the Bangkok post from their front page but it's old (24 Feb), so never mind. Kind of wonder why they leave that tripe on there but okay, I didn't move to this country for the great newspapers. ]

(I can't seem to delete the post or change the title)

Edited March 2, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Paagai]

[ never mind.. I posted this from the Bangkok post from their front page but it's old (24 Feb), so never mind. Kind of wonder why they leave that tripe on there but okay, I didn't move to this country for the great newspapers. ]

(I can't seem to delete the post or change the title)

You mean this?

http://www.bangkokpost.com/

Maybe a few days old but still worthy of comment. Also, this from yesterday:

game-theory-gay-reality

I don't know about others, but recently there have been a number of happenings in Chiang Mai which are starting to give me feelings of disquiet about the direction the north of Thailand is taking. The new regieme in Bangkok seems to be papering over the cracks whilst the real problems continue to fester. Some of the scenarios that predictably come out of this paint a very turbulent future for this reigon over the coming months/years.

[PeaceBlondie]

The riddle in game theory is an old accountants' joke, about credits and debits. But what the red-shirted thugs threatened to do to stop the gay parade, by any means including violence, were no joke, and no credit to Thai cultural values. They did not represent traditional northern Thai culture half as much as the gay Thais who wanted to march in the peaceful parade.

Would it be karma if the homophobic red-shirted Thais are reincarnated as katoeys?

[dinthailand]

The riddle in game theory is an old accountants' joke, about credits and debits. But what the red-shirted thugs threatened to do to stop the gay parade, by any means including violence, were no joke, and no credit to Thai cultural values. They did not represent traditional northern Thai culture half as much as the gay Thais who wanted to march in the peaceful parade.

Would it be karma if the homophobic red-shirted Thais are reincarnated as katoeys?

Don't fully understand your metaphors if that is what they are. particularly the operations research concept of game theory in mathematically evaluating procedures. and what is the accountants joke exactly.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I think it goes without saying that interfering with a gay parade (or any kind of parade or gathering that does no harm) is deplorable.

The BKK post article however is equally deplorable in the way it tries to slander anyone with grievances against the Bangkok/Yellow elite. Some very legitimate concerns there.

[PeaceBlondie]

The article about game theory started with the old accountants' joke and proceeded to confuse further.The injection of red and yellow shirt colours into a basically pink parade shows how polarized this country is. When violent thugs of any colour do gay-bashing in the name of Thai politics, you can't tell me we're not on the eve of destruction. Mexico almost looks safer in the near future!!

[dinthailand]

The article about game theory started with the old accountants' joke and proceeded to confuse further.The injection of red and yellow shirt colours into a basically pink parade shows how polarized this country is. When violent thugs of any colour do gay-bashing in the name of Thai politics, you can't tell me we're not on the eve of destruction. Mexico almost looks safer in the near future!!

I agree about the political polarisation but you've lost me on the game theory and accountants.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

But what can WE do about this awful group that claims to represent the people of CM? To be honest, they are rather scary. I have sent a letter to Mayor and Gov, but what else can one do...and what will they do next? The whole thing was a mess. The article was rather off point...and confusing.

[Plus]

The thing is very simple. Red shirts of Chiang Mai thought that gayness is against their traditional values, so they disrupted the parade.

But even in these gay issues the media can't avoid politicising relatively simple story and try to be even handed at all costs.

A week ago there was a similar article in the Nation wher staunch anti-yellow Pravit argued that disrupting gay parade was on par with PAD making jokes of Jakrapob's Penclair alleged sexual (mis)orientation and the whole world need to pay attention to PAD's fascist agenda and prosecute perpetrators of illegal coup of 2006. He just can't help it, everything needs to be packed in his six inches of text.

The point that needs to be made is that Red Shits of Chiang Mai do not represent the city ant its culture and should stop acting as self appointed police. Please, keep Thaksin out of it.

[Jingthing]

The point that needs to be made is that Red Shits of Chiang Mai do not represent the city ant its culture and should stop acting as self appointed police. Please, keep Thaksin out of it.

Why? Are you saying this particular pack of red shirt thugs are NOT followers of Thaksin?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Heck, I'd love to see Thaksin become PM again. Doesn't mean that I have anything against gay parades. In fact I'd love to see more gay parades. Fortunately Songkran will be here soon which is kind of a gay parade gone mad.

[spectrum]

Cabinet members to showcase works upcountry

By The Nation

The government will, for the next two weeks, dispatch Cabinet members upcountry to showcase policies and job performance and its awareness campaign is meant to divert attention from distractions stirred up by ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra. "The prime minister has suggested for every minister to fan out upcountry in order to heed grievances and keep in touch with the people in all 76 provinces," PM's Office Minister Satit Wongnongtaey said Tuesday.

Abhisit Vejjajiva will set an example by his visit to Lop Buri, Satit said, adding that for the coming weekend, the 36 Cabinet members are expected to travel to 36 provinces.

The Public Relations Department has been tasked to publicise the activities of Cabinet members while visiting the respective provinces, he said.

Ministers will focus on their job as a way to counter the distractions from the pro-Thaksin camp, he said.

"By reaching out to remote areas, villagers will realise they have not been neglected," he said.

Among the planned trips include Deputy Prime Minister Korbsak Sabhavasu to Mae Hong Son and Chon Buri and Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwan to Chiang Mai, he said.

The ministers are determined to visit the rural areas regardless of the opposition movement spearheaded by the red shirts, he said.

Hope things won't get too interesting as a result ...

Will the limpidity of our air receive comment? Who drew the shortest straws?

[Loaded]

I'm still confused.

From the BKK post article (game theory):

3 people pay 30 dollars for a hotel room or 10 dollars each

manager realises the hotel overcharged them because the real price is 25 dollars

so he gives a member of staff 5 dollars to return to the guests

the member of staff pockets 2 dollars and returns 1 dollar each to the guests

so the guests paid 10 dollars each but received a 1 dollar refund = 9 dollars each or 27 dollars total

the member of staff kept 2 dollars.

27 + 2 = 29 dollars. Where did the other dollar go?

It's kept me awake

Edited March 3, 2009 by Loaded

[Lordfoul]

In the end the Guests are 27$ out of pocket (9$x3) - 2$ that the member of staff pocketed = 25$ (the cost of the room)

And to keep this on topic Taksin is the staff member with the sticky fingers.

I'm still confused.

From the BKK post article (game theory):

3 people pay 30 dollars for a hotel room or 10 dollars each

manager realises the hotel overcharged them because the real price is 25 dollars

so he gives a member of staff 5 dollars to return to the guests

the member of staff pockets 2 dollars and returns 1 dollar each to the guests

so the guests paid 10 dollars each but received a 1 dollar refund = 9 dollars each or 27 dollars total

the member of staff kept 2 dollars.

27 + 2 = 29 dollars. Where did the other dollar go?

It's kept me awake

[adjan jb]

manager realises the hotel overcharged them because the real price is 25 dollars

so he gives a member of staff 5 dollars to return to the guests

Relax. This story didn't take place in Thailand.

[Ulysses G.]

The point that needs to be made is that Red Shits of Chiang Mai do not represent the city ant its culture and should stop acting as self appointed police. Please, keep Thaksin out of it.

Why? Are you saying this particular pack of red shirt thugs are NOT followers of Thaksin?

More importantly, did Thaksin tell them to interfere with the parade?

Edited March 3, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

But what can WE do about this awful group that claims to represent the people of CM? To be honest, they are rather scary. I have sent a letter to Mayor and Gov, but what else can one do...and what will they do next? The whole thing was a mess. The article was rather off point...and confusing.

The lady poses a question far more important than the price of a hotel room. They - the red-shit thugs - violently disrupted a peaceful parade, while wearing the same color shirts as the Chiang Mai killers who dragged the radio station owner out of the car and murdered him while police watched and arrested nobody. Have they yet arrested any suspects with blood on their red Taksin shirts?

I fear these episodes only embolden Thais loyal to Taksin to turn the north into a lawless Lanna.

"First, they came for the yellow shirts. Then they came for the pink shirts. Then they came for me, and nobody stopped them."

[Gravelrash]

Quite frankly I think we can do without your boorish parade here, but condemn the thuggish CM red group that disrupted it.

[earlofwindermere]

With all the talk about Red vs Yellow shirts and whether "gay-ness" is anti-Thai culture, I decided to ask the 5 Thai staff at my office what they thought.

Most are from rural villages but have degrees from universities here in the city. They are all in their 20's / 30's and are from a variety of religions (mostly Buddhists but one Christian Thai ) and a couple are from hilltribe backgrounds. From this segment of society, I expected to hear answers of tolerance but I was mistaken.

Without exception, all of them said that they support the Red Shirt cause but don't like any kind of violence. They believe that the Red Shirts support true democracy and do represent the majority of Northern Thais. (minus any violence).

They also said that being "gay" is not true Lanna culture. They told me that most Thais prefer to not say anything publically but deep down, they think that the gay culture is imported from abroad. While none of them would protest the matter, they agreed with the Red Shirts who did oppose the parade.

This quite surprised me. I realized that I don't truly understand the local culture. Interpreting Thai "quietness" or tolerance does not necessarily mean acceptance or approval. I'm curious if others have asked other Thai people (preferable those who are not personally involved in the above issues) as to what their opinions are.

[Jingthing]

I am not surprised. Those social attitudes are typical. Some westerners misinterpret the superficial tolerance to mean it is a paradise in Thailand for gay and transgendered Thais. Nothing could be further from the truth. It may be a paradise of sorts for farangs with money though. Not the same thing.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

So - regardless how many Thais up north are not fully supportive of Thais being gay, and in spite of the evidence that this parade was a second annual Thai-run parade - northern red shirt Thais who generally favor Taksin do not condone any Thais who use violence against humans. That has become the larger issue.

[Ulysses G.]

The reds and the yellows have both used violence to achieve their ends, but most Thais seem to disaprove of these actions. Frankly, I don't see either group as being better than the other.

Now is the time to work on improving the country, not on fighting with each other.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So - regardless how many Thais up north are not fully supportive of Thais being gay, and in spite of the evidence that this parade was a second annual Thai-run parade - northern red shirt Thais who generally favor Taksin do not condone any Thais who use violence against humans. That has become the larger issue.

Yes, perfect summary. Also agree completely with Ulysses above, as I think do most Thais no matter their political allegiance.

[Thakkar]

Some westerners misinterpret the superficial tolerance to mean it is a paradise in Thailand for gay and transgendered Thais. Nothing could be further from the truth. It may be a paradise of sorts for farangs with money though. Not the same thing.

So true.

All the more reason to have such parades—as a way to raise awareness, promote acceptance and give courage and hope to those fearful of expressing their true selves.

In America, politicians who don't give a hoot one way or the other, played up the gay marriage thing to stoke the fires of intolerance to rally their base because they calculate that it'll gain them enough votes to stay in power. Supporters of the effeminate Takshin are making the calculation that this will gain them followers and rally more to their cause while conveniently painting PAD (whose leaders are equally cynical and wish they'd thought of this first) as 'gay lovers'

It's the politics of hate, practiced by politicians with no courage and no useful ideas. It's nothing personal, and for gays, the way to lose this struggle is to take it personally (difficult to avoid, I know) and take umbrage at the small number of mindless intolerants who populated the anti-gay protest. The real villains are the leaders. Show up their lack of vision, their lack of solutions to real everyday problems of everyday people — do that and you strip them of their cynical clothes and show them up for the empty, self-serving vessels they are and you strip them of their power and the power of their hateful slogans.

To me, it isn't about diversity, tourism or lost business opportunity; it's about this: any society that doesn't allow every member to be themselves is the poorer for it. Any individual who doesn't accept another individual for who they are is the poorer for it.

We can take courage from the axiom that in the end, what is right and inclusive generally tends to prevail and that what is wrong and exclusive falls by the wayside.