Police Raid Prachatai News Online Office

[catmac]

Of course, it could just be that Abhisit has no idea of what is actually going on in the real corridors of power - or rather that those who really wield the power don't bother to keep him informed (remember that infamous meeting with the Army boss to stitch together the Parliamentary coalition? Poor old Abhisit said he didn't know anything about it!)

Every day, he looks more and more like the puppet he is. A pretty face, wonderful at waffling in English, but not an ounce of substance.

[jayboy]

There certainly IS a movement to discredit the royal insitution, which is now spends more time on trumping up LM charges.

Sadly -because I believe strongly in a constititutional monarchy in Thailand- I fear you are right.The question is what gave this movement its catalyst, and in my view the answer lies with the short sighted fools who launched the last military coup.Every adverse event follows from this.

[justanothercybertosser]

Of course, it could just be that Abhisit has no idea of what is actually going on in the real corridors of power - or rather that those who really wield the power don't bother to keep him informed (remember that infamous meeting with the Army boss to stitch together the Parliamentary coalition? Poor old Abhisit said he didn't know anything about it!)

Every day, he looks more and more like the puppet he is. A pretty face, wonderful at waffling in English, but not an ounce of substance.

There is this theory around that Abhisit is just a pretty face. I don't think so. I think he is very smart (without an ounce of charisma though), and knows very well the game that is played. He comes from a family that is well versed in this game, went to the right school, the right university.

[samgrowth]

Anyone who question LM law will be charged under LM law. Catch 22?

[Plus]

Giles's book never was "advertised" as a bombshell. It was sold by one local university bookstore, had a small printrun, was sold out quickly, and is still avaliable for free as PDF. Please do not try to make it out as something that it never even was intended. It has its weaknesses (a bit too much heavy on Marxist phraseology of 80 years ago), and its strong points (the best analyses of the NGO scenery here i have come across).

While I was reading this I remembere that there's a similar post about rewriting history in Jokes, it's about Hillary Clinton editing biography of her great great uncle.

It's hilarious.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Writing-Mini...54#entry2586254

So, you doubt that the government is behind this campaign, because you think that Abhisit is not stupid. Do you have any other supporting evidence for your views other than your doubts and believes?

The problem is, that there is more than enough evidence (which i have partly cited) that the government indeed is part of this campaign.

Don't need to be a rocket sceintist to question the timing of the recent webmaster arrest - just hours after Abhisit personally delivered a speech on media freedom.

[Journalist]

He comes from a family that is well versed in this game, went to the right school, the right university.

He went to Eton and Oxford !!!

Do you think anyone in Thailand even faintly considers Eton and Oxford are the 'right' places to be educated??

This is Bangkok and Korat, not Sandhurst and Whitehall.

[jayboy]

He comes from a family that is well versed in this game, went to the right school, the right university.

He went to Eton and Oxford !!!

Do you think anyone in Thailand even faintly considers Eton and Oxford are the 'right' places to be educated??

This is Bangkok and Korat, not Sandhurst and Whitehall.

Actually there is a long tradition in Thailand dating back to the nineteeth century of upper class Thais including royalty being educated at elite English schools and universities.It added a particular English aristocratic frisson to Thailand's ruling class, and leant it at least part of its characteristic charm.The answer to your question is that many Thais would certainly agree that Abhisit's education in England was a good thing in a long and fine Thai tradition.However I would agree the anglocentric influence is in decline along one could say with the English gentlemanly tradition that was its inspiration, as England itself has lost that tradition as the spivs and chavs take over.So the world turns and these days many Thais on the make choose obscure and second rate places like Houston to study police science or some such nonsense.

[Journalist]

^Yeah, in the late 1800s - and still in the UK Conservative Party today, but I think the cachet he gets today from his British background is probably most appreciated by British expats in Thailand.

[jayboy]

^Yeah, in the late 1800s - and still in the UK Conservative Party today, but I think the cachet he gets today from his British background is probably most appreciated by British expats in Thailand.

I'm guessing with all due respect you don't know that many upper class Thais.What British expats think is frankly neither here nor there.

[aussiejosh]

Ouch, bet laziness played a roll in not bothering to remove the comments, but harsh... Its a public board.

[Journalist]

If Eton and Oxbridge have been so popular among Thai aristocrats and have been qualifications for high office, then just say what 20th Century Thai Prime Ministers had that kind of background.

if there was a trend of this - then I'll stand corrected. Till then I'll continue to wallow in my (apparently) mistaken belief that the people who get most erect about Abhisit's pukka British background are British expats !

[jayboy]

If Eton and Oxbridge have been so popular among Thai aristocrats and have been qualifications for high office, then just say what 20th Century Thai Prime Ministers had that kind of background.

if there was a trend of this - then I'll stand corrected. Till then I'll continue to wallow in my (apparently) mistaken belief that the people who get most erect about Abhisit's pukka British background are British expats !

Two different things here.The elite British education remains the gold standard in many upper class Thai minds, less so than say thirty years ago as US elite prep schools and universities are increasingly attractive.It's certainly not a qualification for high office -anymore than it is in the UK- though off the top of my head Abhisit,Anand, Seni, Kukrit give it a fair representation.

I don't think what British expats think matters very much does it? Given that British expats in Thailand reflect -some might say over represent- the UK's chavvy and pikey population the old school Thai is more likely to generate a chippy class resentment.We have some evidence of that on this forum.

[Journalist]

^Yes, what British expats think doesn't matter at all. My point there was that British expats may think that something matters because they are looking at it from their perspective.

I daresay that Abhisit is popular among western expats for some reasons that a Thai person wouldn't necessarily find so important. Eg: I don't think a Thai person would be so impressed by his English fluency and appearance.

You're right about Anand and Seni.

[cmsally]

I think the education and the personality are meant to serve 2 purposes. One as window dressing for the Thai population who are mostly impressed even if they are not sure where Eton and Oxford are, unless of course if they have covered both places in a days sightseeing. The other is window dressing for the world stage. They need a respectful face that can represent Thailand on the world stage.

The sticking point is that many Thais don't care where Oxford is, it's irrelevant to their daily circumstances and many foreigners know more than the basics about Thailand and expect more charisma and substance from an Oxford graduate.

What worries me most, is that Abhisit's career post Oxford is pretty much non existent. Is he just the pin up sacrificial lamb that has been groomed for the potential slaughter?

[hammered]

If Eton and Oxbridge have been so popular among Thai aristocrats and have been qualifications for high office, then just say what 20th Century Thai Prime Ministers had that kind of background.

if there was a trend of this - then I'll stand corrected. Till then I'll continue to wallow in my (apparently) mistaken belief that the people who get most erect about Abhisit's pukka British background are British expats !

Two different things here.The elite British education remains the gold standard in many upper class Thai minds, less so than say thirty years ago as US elite prep schools and universities are increasingly attractive.It's certainly not a qualification for high office -anymore than it is in the UK- though off the top of my head Abhisit,Anand, Seni, Kukrit give it a fair representation.

I don't think what British expats think matters very much does it? Given that British expats in Thailand reflect -some might say over represent- the UK's chavvy and pikey population the old school Thai is more likely to generate a chippy class resentment.We have some evidence of that on this forum.

Very true that a lot of Thai hi-society types and leaders have been through "elite" British schools and also elite US schools. That is the same the world over those who control and wheel and deal in any country want their kids to attend Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Yale etc as they themselves did before. They dont want their kids to study at the kind of lesser establishment I did! Not begrudging them at all.

Interestingly there is a bot of a friendly (?) rivalry between those educated in the states and those in the UK. If you ever mix with Thais up there this is noticeable, if you dont a good example was Suranand's column in the Post about his cousin Abhisit the other week where he implied he who had studied in the States was more modern thinking than Abhisit who had studied in the UK. Considering the next week Suranand went out of his way to do a puff piece on Chalerm as the ideal PTP leader, he may have undercut his claim to be more modern thinking somewhat.

Whatever. I would add that attending the US and UK universities seen as elite of gold standard does not necessarily mean a person is more intelligent, better educted or such like things than someone else who attended a lesser place or didnt even attend college at all. It also depends on how you take the opportunity life gives you, plus some people just seem to be naturally sharper than other - lucky devils. Coming from a very poor urban background in the UK myself but having got a university education at a lesser institute, I cant say I am envious of those who went to better places. We all have to take the opportunities we get. Sometimes those from my own class (how British) annoy me in their views of the educated more than "my betters". However, I would add that there are people very intelligent who just never get the opportunity to study. What goes on in academic institues is also of little relevence to most ordinary working people and in this day and age Bush is probably testement of how many people feel more comfortable with a "down to earth guy" (even a manipualted creation of this like Bush) than an intellectual, which imho is sad but........

Interesting if off topic discussion by the way.

[Steve2UK]

First, I want to say how welcome it is to see good debate returning to ThaiVisa - long may it continue. Having done my share of throwing brickbats at Plus (and others) for substituting simple assertion for argument, it's only fair to toss a bouquet when I see the opposite - e.g. "That's a conjecture" followed by his reasons for his opinion. We're all necessarily theorising - let's not confuse (deliberately or otherwise) strongly-held opinion with "fact".

If ever a situation deserved the phrase "through a glass darkly", surely it's Thai politics in general and now in particular? I can see the case for deducing a Machiavellian plot (many more than one, actually) - but, rather more persuasively, I see the case for a combination of events occurring/unfolding under their own individual momentum once triggered by interested parties (for me - the military is high on that list). Remember the reply famously attributed to former UK PM MacMillan when asked what tended to blow governments off course: "Events, dear boy..... events".

So, I see a blend of TIT and the visible results of different players pulling different levers for their own short- and long-term motives behind the scenes. The one dependable constant is that most participants will play the "protect the monarchy" card in whichever way they think suits them best - it's a guaranteed tactical trump card for at least that hand of the game...... even if it may rebound on their strategic aim later.

I think most will agree that Abhisit is not and cannot be "his own man" - at least not yet. He owes his position to events and arrangements not of his own making (as Catmac reminds us above). The key word here is "owes". To me, that doesn't make him just a puppet (as Catmac goes on to say) but it certainly governs his room for manoeuvre. Given current circumstances and priorities (popular desire/need for political stability, economic recovery etc), the one thing that could give him significantly greater clout - a convincing popular mandate from a general election - is a long way off and everybody knows it. I could go on to add that he must remember what happened to the last Thai PM who received such a dangerous mandate - whatever your view of that PM's motives and means to achieve it.

For now, the most that Abhisit can do about LM legal actions (or computer crime laws used instead but for the same purpose) is attempt to manage the situation and presentation of events that unfold around him. We have already seen old-guard and well-connected Suthep putting down his marker by stating publicly (in advance of the high-level meeting to discuss them) that he is against any change to them - while (of political necessity) conceding that he agrees with the PM about controlling their application. To my mind, it's just one of the many "shots across the bow" being fired by various participants in the game.

In that sense, I agree with what I take to be Plus' view about the timing of the recent Prachatai webmaster arrest - it looks like another signal to remind Abhisit to watch his step and not get ahead of himself. I disagree that there is much if any credible evidence to support the view that there is a "movement to discredit the royal institution" - beyond the minuscule number who want to see it replaced. We don't need polls to remind us just what a massive weight of support there is among Thai people as a whole for their revered monarchy. On the other hand, it does feel like there is some powers-that-be momentum to see the LM laws adjusted; to be fair, that must include those who see a greater need for them to be reinforced in preparation for the installation of a successor - as well as those (the majority, I think) who want to see them moderated in their application and impact. Either way, that is IMO a very different matter from seeing what is surely a non-starter conspiracy to discredit the institution per se - that just sounds like Canute against a tsunami.

[Plus]

I think the original point was that Oxford education somehow prepared Abhisit for Thai politics and "the game".

That is not true.

On his own he'd be eaten for breakfast. Without Suthep he's politically nothing.

Sadly -because I believe strongly in a constititutional monarchy in Thailand- I fear you are right.The question is what gave this movement its catalyst, and in my view the answer lies with the short sighted fools who launched the last military coup.

The coup only provided them with audience, when they jumped on the wagon, it wasn't big but it was something, a first chance to come out in public. What really added the numbers is pro-Thaksin red movement.

How much impact they have made is anyone's guess. They are certainly more vocal but tend to scream about some nonsense rather than present actual arguments and ideas for discussion. Mixing with reds doesn't give them any credibility (and same goes for reds themselves).

So far the authorities managed to keep them isolated, out of mainstream news. It's probably good for their own safety anyway.

[hammered]

First, I want to say how welcome it is to see good debate returning to ThaiVisa - long may it continue. Having done my share of throwing brickbats at Plus (and others) for substituting simple assertion for argument, it's only fair to toss a bouquet when I see the opposite - e.g. "That's a conjecture" followed by his reasons for his opinion. We're all necessarily theorising - let's not confuse (deliberately or otherwise) strongly-held opinion with "fact".

If ever a situation deserved the phrase "through a glass darkly", surely it's Thai politics in general and now in particular? I can see the case for deducing a Machiavellian plot (many more than one, actually) - but, rather more persuasively, I see the case for a combination of events occurring/unfolding under their own individual momentum once triggered by interested parties (for me - the military is high on that list). Remember the reply famously attributed to former UK PM MacMillan when asked what tended to blow governments off course: "Events, dear boy..... events".

So, I see a blend of TIT and the visible results of different players pulling different levers for their own short- and long-term motives behind the scenes. The one dependable constant is that most participants will play the "protect the monarchy" card in whichever way they think suits them best - it's a guaranteed tactical trump card for at least that hand of the game...... even if it may rebound on their strategic aim later.

I think most will agree that Abhisit is not and cannot be "his own man" - at least not yet. He owes his position to events and arrangements not of his own making (as Catmac reminds us above). The key word here is "owes". To me, that doesn't make him just a puppet (as Catmac goes on to say) but it certainly governs his room for manoeuvre. Given current circumstances and priorities (popular desire/need for political stability, economic recovery etc), the one thing that could give him significantly greater clout - a convincing popular mandate from a general election - is a long way off and everybody knows it. I could go on to add that he must remember what happened to the last Thai PM who received such a dangerous mandate - whatever your view of that PM's motives and means to achieve it.

For now, the most that Abhisit can do about LM legal actions (or computer crime laws used instead but for the same purpose) is attempt to manage the situation and presentation of events that unfold around him. We have already seen old-guard and well-connected Suthep putting down his marker by stating publicly (in advance of the high-level meeting to discuss them) that he is against any change to them - while (of political necessity) conceding that he agrees with the PM about controlling their application. To my mind, it's just one of the many "shots across the bow" being fired by various participants in the game.

In that sense, I agree with what I take to be Plus' view about the timing of the recent Prachatai webmaster arrest - it looks like another signal to remind Abhisit to watch his step and not get ahead of himself. I disagree that there is much if any credible evidence to support the view that there is a "movement to discredit the royal institution" - beyond the minuscule number who want to see it replaced. We don't need polls to remind us just what a massive weight of support there is among Thai people as a whole for their revered monarchy. On the other hand, it does feel like there is some powers-that-be momentum to see the LM laws adjusted; to be fair, that must include those who see a greater need for them to be reinforced in preparation for the installation of a successor - as well as those (the majority, I think) who want to see them moderated in their application and impact. Either way, that is IMO a very different matter from seeing what is surely a non-starter conspiracy to discredit the institution per se - that just sounds like Canute against a tsunami.

It is possible that the claim of a movement to discredit is actually a gambit aimed at the red links to such ideas especially through Giles. A kind of play to discredit the red side where Giles is seemingly coat-tailing Thaksin. There is a vicious power struggle going on to have the power to control and shape things as Thailand changes in the next decade.

[jayboy]

Hammered

I know you are not implying this but perhaps just to clarify the matter for all his faults one thing Giles cannot be accused of is supporting Thaksin.That's one area where his record is clear.However you are right that his views may be misrepresented in the political inferno.

My own view is that he's a rather marginal figure and strangely out of touch with mainstream views.There's no support for his latest radical proposal.And, while recognising his fighting spirit, isn't there something a bit tiresome about Marxist intellectuals in 2009? If he had toned down his agitprop agenda by say 50% I might have paid him rather more attention because not all he says is silly.

[clausewitz]

the idea that Abhisit isn't in favour of the recents arrests because he said he supports freedom of speech is ludicrous.

Who can forget his statement at a morning press conferecne saying he will be ensuring PAD is hed to account for the storming of teh airports and then in the afternoon he announces Kasit (leading PAD nut) as his foreign minister..the man is a pathological liar.

[Plus]

Campaign against LM law is misguided - in principle it offers the royal institution same protection guaranteed to every other citizen. Normal folks just use libel/defamation laws to protect themselves.

Try publishing a book that says that Thaksin had his mistress assassinated and erased all her family, and see how fast he'd sue you for billions.

Try publishing a book that says that Thaksin personally ordered drug war killings and see how long you'll last.

This kind of stuff does not go unpunished anywhere in the world. Why Thai King should be stripped of this protection?

There's a clear article in the Constution that says "The King shall not be violated". That's the main basis for having a separate law to protect monarchy from defamation and libel, and no one in his right mind would proposed striking this article out, no matter how many editions are there.

[justanothercybertosser]

He comes from a family that is well versed in this game, went to the right school, the right university.

He went to Eton and Oxford !!!

Do you think anyone in Thailand even faintly considers Eton and Oxford are the 'right' places to be educated??

This is Bangkok and Korat, not Sandhurst and Whitehall.

I think your question has been sufficiently answered. I can only add my view here, that in the very high echelons of Thai society it does matter very much where you were educated. Sorbonne may be the top, rivaled by Oxford, Cambridge, then the top US universities, Germany only for the engineering professions. Then, the plebs that can afford a foreign education, but not the more prestigious ones will have to go to Australia.

And in terms of Abhisit's education, people on the world stage are very much impressed by a Thai PM with his educational credentials. I have seen ambassadors of some of the more important western countries being all creamy about his education.

[Plus]

one thing Giles cannot be accused of is supporting Thaksin

He sings many songs about Thaksin's policies and "democratisation" of Thailand. For all practical reasons that would qualify as support.

[justanothercybertosser]

the idea that Abhisit isn't in favour of the recents arrests because he said he supports freedom of speech is ludicrous.

Who can forget his statement at a morning press conferecne saying he will be ensuring PAD is hed to account for the storming of teh airports and then in the afternoon he announces Kasit (leading PAD nut) as his foreign minister..the man is a pathological liar.

As a side note, equally revealing is the decision not to ask for 18 mio baht damages from PAD for the destruction and theft in Government House.

[justanothercybertosser]

one thing Giles cannot be accused of is supporting Thaksin

He sings many songs about Thaksin's policies and "democratisation" of Thailand. For all practical reasons that would qualify as support.

Only if you ignore his documented criticism of Thaksin, which was also contained in his manifest. Accusing Giles of supporting Thaksin is pure conjecture.

[Plus]

Yes, but I didn't hear him say that in any of his interviews given while he was in country, while he was assossiated with reds.

He was harping about power to the people and legitimacy of Thaksin's electoral mandate instead.

[wayfarer108]

In that sense, I agree with what I take to be Plus' view about the timing of the recent Prachatai webmaster arrest - it looks like another signal to remind Abhisit to watch his step and not get ahead of himself.

A bouquet to you as well, Steve2UK, for recognising that's the most simple and elegant conclusion. Although speculative, as would be the more complex alternative, you have to ask who stands to benefit most from the police action that day.

What clinches it for me is that a couple weeks before this particular story broke, a Thai reporter I know mentioned he'd heard from an inside source that CSD chief Pol Col Pongpat Chayaphan had standing orders from the ex-PM to suppress Thai media, to make the Abhisit administration's overtures to the press look bad. So when I heard about the raid--at which point I knew nothing about Abhisit's address on press freedom--I automatically assumed the police were making an anti-Abhisit power play.

Just as many observers conclude that the army, sympathising with the opposition, failed to carry out PPP orders to remove the PAD from Suvarnabhumi, we might observe that the police, being loyal to Thaksin, are sluggish to follow the will of the latest admin.

Edited March 11, 2009 by wayfarer108

[justanothercybertosser]

Sadly -because I believe strongly in a constititutional monarchy in Thailand- I fear you are right.The question is what gave this movement its catalyst, and in my view the answer lies with the short sighted fools who launched the last military coup.

The coup only provided them with audience, when they jumped on the wagon, it wasn't big but it was something, a first chance to come out in public. What really added the numbers is pro-Thaksin red movement.

How much impact they have made is anyone's guess. They are certainly more vocal but tend to scream about some nonsense rather than present actual arguments and ideas for discussion. Mixing with reds doesn't give them any credibility (and same goes for reds themselves).

So far the authorities managed to keep them isolated, out of mainstream news. It's probably good for their own safety anyway.

That is a bit of a simplification.

The recent letter of the 50 academics is a perfect example how events that do not constitute lese majeste are brought by artificial accusations into such. Manager media has a vicious campaign now against the people that signed this latest letter, especially against Thongchai Winichakul.

The radical royalists have been throwing around with such unfounded accusations since the completely unproven Finland Declaration rubbish, brought this issue into public discussion, and that way have created out of a very small discontent contained in a few universities and NGOs a larger public debate. That may not be reflected in the traditional medias, but it very much is in the alternative medias.

The radical royalists and PAD have managed to do far more damage to the image of the monarchy than its opponents could have ever done so on their own, both in Thailand, and in the rest of the world. Still, their only strategy is further radicalization of the discussion, which will cause even more people to think critically.

[justanothercybertosser]

Yes, but I didn't hear him say that in any of his interviews given while he was in country, while he was assossiated with reds.

He was harping about power to the people and legitimacy of Thaksin's electoral mandate instead.

Then, i believe, you have listened very selectively to what he said.

[justanothercybertosser]

In that sense, I agree with what I take to be Plus' view about the timing of the recent Prachatai webmaster arrest - it looks like another signal to remind Abhisit to watch his step and not get ahead of himself.

A bouquet to you as well, Steve2UK, for recognising that's the most simple and elegant conclusion. Although speculative, as would be the more complex alternative, you have to ask who stands to benefit most from the police action that day.

What clinches it for me is that a couple weeks before this particular story broke, a Thai reporter I know mentioned he'd heard from an inside source that CSD chief Pol Col Pongpat Chayaphan had standing orders from the ex-PM to suppress Thai media, to make the Abhisit administration's overtures to the press look bad. So when I heard about the raid--at which point I knew nothing about Abhisit's address on press freedom--I automatically assumed the police were making an anti-Abhisit power play.

Just as many observers conclude that the army, sympathising with the opposition, failed to carry out PPP orders to remove the PAD from Suvarnabhumi, we might observe that the police, being loyal to Thaksin, are sluggish to follow the will of the latest admin.

I disagree with Steve2UK's theory. Just because Abhisit has held a speech on press freedom, does not mean that he meant what he said, especially in terms of what is deemed a news website and forum that has already previously been accused many times of being a platform for critics of the monarchy.

Abhisit is a politician. At times politicians do say things people want to hear, and don't exactly mean what they say.

Lets better look at Abhisit's actions. He has personally supported PAD many times, he went to major funerals of PAD members. He has answered questions on the existence of a anti monarchy conspiracy with 'yes'. His justice minister has made a motion to increase the maximum punishment for lese majeste from 15 to 25 years. His FM is a PAD member. There simply is far more evidence that Abhisit personally is in support of harsher treatment of anything that may be in the realm of lese majeste.

I believe you overestimate the power of the police as compared to the military. I also have not heard Abhisit slamming the police for the recent arrest of the prachatai editor. In the past Abhisit has been very vocal when he did not agree with the police.

I believe there is much wishful thinking involved regarding Abhisit's position. For many years Abhisit was held up as a shining light in Thai politics (and i have thought so too once). What though is getting increasingly obvious is that he is power corrupt, that he made a faustian pact in order to come to power, and that he is not what he pretends to be - he is not the liberal politician he pretends to be.

His actions speak louder than words.