Look For Advice On Getting A Patent & How To Approach Investors

[Avante]

Dear all,

Thank you for reading this. I have an unpatented invention that could lift the misery and greatly improve the living condition of the masses Thai people. There is nothing like it before. This invention is very new and nothing the world has seen before. This product has all the 8 Ps in marketing and i am going to make sure this end product is sold in a very affordable way so that everyone can own a piece of it.

The problem is i do not have the means to carry out a patent filing and the cost of getting a patent attorney, etc to get it done the right way so am planning to source experienced & most importantly honest investors that I could trust very soon, to assist on my dream to help mankind.

Is there a way to present and convince them to help fund my project without disclosing my prototype idea to them? Not before i have the idea patented rightfully under my name.

Please tell me what to do. I am very lost and confused. Any advise will be very appreciated. The product and concept are all in my head. Awaiting to be made. Just lacking in funds to make it happen and market it.

Thank you

Avante

[Pakeha]

Is there a way to present and convince them to help fund my project without disclosing my prototype idea to them?

No.

Good luck.

[Boo]

Solicitation of money is not allowed. CLOSED

[Boo]

topic reopened with edited title & content. Previous titled suggested op was looking for investors & also removed what looks like sales patter.

Please do not attempt to inject any kind of solicitation in further posts.

[Avante]

topic reopened with edited title & content. Previous titled suggested op was looking for investors & also removed what looks like sales patter.

Please do not attempt to inject any kind of solicitation in further posts.

Thank you for reopening my topic Boo !! Glad that u understood my intention.

Okay back to my intended topic. How am i going to present the unpatent idea to interested investors? I am not really good with business laws and dun want them to kick me out of the deal either when they heard wind of my prototype.

Thanks

[loong]

How can you make a presentation to investors without letting them know what the idea is?

It may be better to start your idea in a different country where you may feel more protected.

[Boo]

Does it really cost that much to register a patent. I didn't think you needed a prototype to register a patent & could patent the plans & idea to prevent copying & theft?

[Avante]

There must be a way of doing it. Or maybe something acceptable that suits my current situation. Come on come on people. Please help me brainstorm this together as one big forum. If this invention product really get launched. I am organising a big massive Chivas Regal free flow party by the bottle to EVERYBODY in Thaivisa forum as a gesture of goodwill and thanks. Before the drinking party commence. All are invited to fill your stomach in a 5 stars hotel buffet. And I will glad and honoured to pay everything for it.

And i swear to God i will do it !

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

For starters put all of the information you have in a sealed envelope and send registered to yourself. Do not open it and put in a safe place. At some future time it will help provide proof of the date and that you came up with it. If you have a attorney send him the same and tell him the reason for it.

[OriginalPoster]

Dear all,

Thank you for reading this. I have an unpatented invention that could lift the misery and greatly improve the living condition of the masses Thai people. There is nothing like it before. This invention is very new and nothing the world has seen before. This product has all the 8 Ps in marketing and i am going to make sure this end product is sold in a very affordable way so that everyone can own a piece of it.

The problem is i do not have the means to carry out a patent filing and the cost of getting a patent attorney, etc to get it done the right way so am planning to source experienced & most importantly honest investors that I could trust very soon, to assist on my dream to help mankind.

Is there a way to present and convince them to help fund my project without disclosing my prototype idea to them? Not before i have the idea patented rightfully under my name.

Please tell me what to do. I am very lost and confused. Any advise will be very appreciated. The product and concept are all in my head. Awaiting to be made. Just lacking in funds to make it happen and market it.

Thank you

Avante

Apparently there is some reason that you don't want to consult with a patent lawyer, but if you don't consult with a patent attorney before sharing details of your invention to 3rd parties you are being foolish. That's assuming, of course, that your invention is not just smoke & mirrors, that you do in fact have something that is patentable. The attorney will not only be able to assist you in filing the patent but will be able to advice you about how to protect your IP until the patent is filed & granted. The risk that you run otherwise is that unfamiliarity with patent law may lead you to do something that would be construed as public disclosure of the invention prior to filing for a patent. You don't want to accidentally put your invention in the public domain.

That said, you want to file for a patent before you show it to investors but you don't necessarliy have to wait for the patent offices verdict before showing it to 3rd parties. You will have some protection just from filing (even before the patent ultimately gets approved, and it can take quiet some time before you know the patent's office final verdict). The longer you wait until you patent it the more likely that you will run into problems trying to get the patent approved, either due to someone else patenting something similar in the interim or due to procedural issues.

Edited March 14, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[dave111223]

Last i checked it cost less than $100 to file a patient, just file the paper work:

http://www.uspto.gov/

Or even if you use a patient company where you fill out some basic fields and they file the documents for you it doesn't cost more than $200-$300.

I'm always amused by these people who come up with the savor of mankind, but then can't seem to come up with a few hundred bucks, or be bothered to do a couple of days of research on how to file a patient myself.

Your suspect...

[Jingthing]

If you are talking US patents, there are provisional patents and then actual patents. The actual costs to actually PROPERLY prepare and file even a provisional patent (which has an expiration date where you must move forward to a full patent) are way in excess of 100 dollars. I was looking into doing an actual patent on a technology project and because of the specialized issues with high tech, was looking at more like 10,000 dollars to do the actual patent (and that was with cheap lawyers).

I still hold the invention. It is a wonderful thing which many of you could use and improve your lives. The risk/reward of personally spending the money to attempt to commercialize it just didn't add up for me. I would rather die with it than release it for free for others to exploit for profit (I am selfish). So much for Horatio Alger.

It makes me wonder how many other potential advances are never released to the world because of the nature of capitalism.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[Avante]

Last i checked it cost less than $100 to file a patient, just file the paper work:

http://www.uspto.gov/

Or even if you use a patient company where you fill out some basic fields and they file the documents for you it doesn't cost more than $200-$300.

I'm always amused by these people who come up with the savor of mankind, but then can't seem to come up with a few hundred bucks, or be bothered to do a couple of days of research on how to file a patient myself.

Your suspect...

Ah nono Dave, it is not easy as coming up with a few hundred bucks. If i get a US Patent. It will only cover for that country alone. I am trying to get a Thai Patent. I dun think my invention will be marketable in the US during the 1st phrase. Later stages, Yes. It will be a good idea to count US in too which i am planning to do.

Patent is a complicated process. And to get it done right the first time. I have to get a patent lawyer who are experienced to get it done the right way. Having it not done professionally with results in a loss of money in the long term.

Patent lawyers can cost between 5,000 US to 10,000 US depending on prototype. I duno for Thai lawyers. But i trust they are not cheap.

[Avante]

If you are talking US patents, there are provisional patents and then actual patents. The actual costs to actually PROPERLY prepare and file even a provisional patent (which has an expiration date where you must move forward to a full patent) are way in excess of 100 dollars. I was looking into doing an actual patent on a technology project and because of the specialized issues with high tech, was looking at more like 10,000 dollars to do the actual patent (and that was with cheap lawyers).

I still hold the invention. It is a wonderful thing which many of you could use and improve your lives. The risk/reward of personally spending the money to attempt to commercialize it just didn't add up for me. I would rather die with it than release it for free for others to exploit for profit (I am selfish). So much for Horatio Alger.

It makes me wonder how many other potential advances are never released to the world because of the nature of capitalism.

Exactly

[Jingthing]

The international issue is relevant. For example getting a patent in one country does not protect you for the entire world. That is another reason I didn't bother with my patent. The product was software based and could be stolen in an instant anywhere in the world and commercialized, even with a US patent. It depends on the specific invention. Some people aren't even bothering with patents anymore and just going for the first on the market advantage because so many ideas can be stolen easily anyway. This first on the market strategy usually only can work even if you are very well capitalized in your business. In other words, a nobody can be first and then a big company spends the money to market it, the nobody is still a nobody.

[Avante]

Dear all,

Thank you for reading this. I have an unpatented invention that could lift the misery and greatly improve the living condition of the masses Thai people. There is nothing like it before. This invention is very new and nothing the world has seen before. This product has all the 8 Ps in marketing and i am going to make sure this end product is sold in a very affordable way so that everyone can own a piece of it.

The problem is i do not have the means to carry out a patent filing and the cost of getting a patent attorney, etc to get it done the right way so am planning to source experienced & most importantly honest investors that I could trust very soon, to assist on my dream to help mankind.

Is there a way to present and convince them to help fund my project without disclosing my prototype idea to them? Not before i have the idea patented rightfully under my name.

Please tell me what to do. I am very lost and confused. Any advise will be very appreciated. The product and concept are all in my head. Awaiting to be made. Just lacking in funds to make it happen and market it.

Thank you

Avante

Apparently there is some reason that you don't want to consult with a patent lawyer, but if you don't consult with a patent attorney before sharing details of your invention to 3rd parties you are being foolish. That's assuming, of course, that your invention is not just smoke & mirrors, that you do in fact have something that is patentable. The attorney will not only be able to assist you in filing the patent but will be able to advice you about how to protect your IP until the patent is filed & granted. The risk that you run otherwise is that unfamiliarity with patent law may lead you to do something that would be construed as public disclosure of the invention prior to filing for a patent. You don't want to accidentally put your invention in the public domain.

That said, you want to file for a patent before you show it to investors but you don't necessarliy have to wait for the patent offices verdict before showing it to 3rd parties. You will have some protection just from filing (even before the patent ultimately gets approved, and it can take quiet some time before you know the patent's office final verdict). The longer you wait until you patent it the more likely that you will run into problems trying to get the patent approved, either due to someone else patenting something similar in the interim or due to procedural issues.

Hi Original Poster. Very good advise. The one reason i cant consult with lawyers is i dun have the mean to seek their services. Okay so what i have to do now is No.1 to find the fund for their service is that right ? There is no other way out?

Perhaps can i convince my investors to pay for the services ? In short just fund everything right from the start. In return i will dedicated my whole time to it and they will have a bigger return for their resources. Will this work out ?

What do you guys think ? Come on keep the advise pouring in continously.

Thank you very much

[OriginalPoster]

If you are talking US patents, there are provisional patents and then actual patents. The actual costs to actually PROPERLY prepare and file even a provisional patent (which has an expiration date where you must move forward to a full patent) are way in excess of 100 dollars. I was looking into doing an actual patent on a technology project and because of the specialized issues with high tech, was looking at more like 10,000 dollars to do the actual patent (and that was with cheap lawyers).

I still hold the invention. It is a wonderful thing which many of you could use and improve your lives. The risk/reward of personally spending the money to attempt to commercialize it just didn't add up for me. I would rather die with it than release it for free for others to exploit for profit (I am selfish). So much for Horatio Alger.

It makes me wonder how many other potential advances are never released to the world because of the nature of capitalism.

I can believe that it could cost a lot of money for a really good write-up for a patent, especially if it's an invention pertaining to a highy specialized technical field of which only equally specialized attornies would have a detailed knowledge. A well written & researched patent will tend to have a better chance of getting approved and have a better chance of being defendable should people violate it in the future. At companies that I've worked for in the past, they've always had patent attornies on staff full time to do work like that, and some of them were really good, good to the point that it seemed like they could get almost anything patented. And then when they did have a patent rejected, they were really good at salvaging patents by making remedial changes and appealing the examiner's decision. A duff might not have as high of a success rate.

Almost any inventor can write-up a description of the invention itself (as required in the patent application) but all important is the "claims" section of the application which ennumerates the unique aspects of the invention that differentiate it from prior art. How well you phrase those, and how narrowly or broadly you phrase them, goes a long way towards determining how easy it will be for future inventors to patent a only slightly different invention, and how easy it will be for practicioners to do be able to something just slightly different in order to avoid paying you royalties. What you claim also will affect the odds of approval, even if you have a unique and useful invention, if you claim a lot a daffy things, or make only claims that a patent examiner will deem to be part or prior art, the patent may get rejected outright.

Edited March 14, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[OriginalPoster]

Dear all,

Thank you for reading this. I have an unpatented invention that could lift the misery and greatly improve the living condition of the masses Thai people. There is nothing like it before. This invention is very new and nothing the world has seen before. This product has all the 8 Ps in marketing and i am going to make sure this end product is sold in a very affordable way so that everyone can own a piece of it.

The problem is i do not have the means to carry out a patent filing and the cost of getting a patent attorney, etc to get it done the right way so am planning to source experienced & most importantly honest investors that I could trust very soon, to assist on my dream to help mankind.

Is there a way to present and convince them to help fund my project without disclosing my prototype idea to them? Not before i have the idea patented rightfully under my name.

Please tell me what to do. I am very lost and confused. Any advise will be very appreciated. The product and concept are all in my head. Awaiting to be made. Just lacking in funds to make it happen and market it.

Thank you

Avante

Apparently there is some reason that you don't want to consult with a patent lawyer, but if you don't consult with a patent attorney before sharing details of your invention to 3rd parties you are being foolish. That's assuming, of course, that your invention is not just smoke & mirrors, that you do in fact have something that is patentable. The attorney will not only be able to assist you in filing the patent but will be able to advice you about how to protect your IP until the patent is filed & granted. The risk that you run otherwise is that unfamiliarity with patent law may lead you to do something that would be construed as public disclosure of the invention prior to filing for a patent. You don't want to accidentally put your invention in the public domain.

That said, you want to file for a patent before you show it to investors but you don't necessarliy have to wait for the patent offices verdict before showing it to 3rd parties. You will have some protection just from filing (even before the patent ultimately gets approved, and it can take quiet some time before you know the patent's office final verdict). The longer you wait until you patent it the more likely that you will run into problems trying to get the patent approved, either due to someone else patenting something similar in the interim or due to procedural issues.

Hi Original Poster. Very good advise. The one reason i cant consult with lawyers is i dun have the mean to seek their services. Okay so what i have to do now is No.1 to find the fund for their service is that right ? There is no other way out?

Perhaps can i convince my investors to pay for the services ? In short just fund everything right from the start. In return i will dedicated my whole time to it and they will have a bigger return for their resources. Will this work out ?

What do you guys think ? Come on keep the advise pouring in continously.

Thank you very much

Any chance that you could convince one of your investors to fund the process of applying for a patent, perhaps in return for some percent of future royalties?

[Pakeha]

Hi Original Poster. Very good advise. The one reason i cant consult with lawyers is i dun have the mean to seek their services. Okay so what i have to do now is No.1 to find the fund for their service is that right ? There is no other way out?

Perhaps can i convince my investors to pay for the services ? In short just fund everything right from the start. In return i will dedicated my whole time to it and they will have a bigger return for their resources. Will this work out ?

What do you guys think ? Come on keep the advise pouring in continously.

Thank you very much

Avante - do you expect anyone to invest in your idea if they don't know what it is? Even if your projected returns are HUGE. The bigger the projected returns the more nervous I'd be as an investor because it sounds unrealistic.

If I came to you and said "I have a great idea that will benefit the world and create huge revenue streams. I can't tell you what it is until after you have given me quite a lot of money. Now please give me your money." Would you give me any money?

Do you have any commercial / business experience? How have you come up with the projected revenue figure?

What makes you think your idea is so good? You too Jingthing... what's so great about your invention that you haven't done something with it?

Edit: I note the projected revenue figure has been deleted. For everyones information for the benefit of the discussion it was VERY VERY large... (Can I say that mods?)

Edited March 14, 2009 by byoung2

[Jingthing]

You should not show an invention to any investor BEFORE some patent protection of some kind so why would they invest in an idea they have never seen?

Shopping an non-patented invention around can destroy your ability to get a patent in the first place.

You too Jingthing... what's so great about your invention that you haven't done something with it?

If I told you, I would have to ... (you know what) you.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[OriginalPoster]

Hi Original Poster. Very good advise. The one reason i cant consult with lawyers is i dun have the mean to seek their services. Okay so what i have to do now is No.1 to find the fund for their service is that right ? There is no other way out?

Perhaps can i convince my investors to pay for the services ? In short just fund everything right from the start. In return i will dedicated my whole time to it and they will have a bigger return for their resources. Will this work out ?

What do you guys think ? Come on keep the advise pouring in continously.

Thank you very much

Avante - do you expect anyone to invest in your idea if they don't know what it is? Even if your projected returns are HUGE. The bigger the projected returns the more nervous I'd be as an investor because it sounds unrealistic.

If I came to you and said "I have a great idea that will benefit the world and create huge revenue streams. I can't tell you what it is until after you have given me quite a lot of money. Now please give me your money." Would you give me any money?

Do you have any commercial / business experience? How have you come up with the projected revenue figure?

What makes you think your idea is so good? You too Jingthing... what's so great about your invention that you haven't done something with it?

Edit: I note the projected revenue figure has been deleted. For everyones information for the benefit of the discussion it was VERY VERY large... (Can I say that mods?)

Good point. Something being patentable doesn't necesarily mean that it's something valuable, it just means that it's different than prior art and that the patent examiner didn't think that it fell into the "perpetual motion machine" category. The vast majority of patents generate zero revenue.

Edited March 14, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[Pakeha]

Good point. Something being patentable doesn't necesarily mean that it's something valuable, it just means that it's different than prior art and that the patent examiner didn't think that it fell into the "perputual motion machine" category. The vast majority of patents generate zero revenue.

Exactly... almost. They do generate a significant amount of revenue...

For the lawyers

[Avante]

Hi Original Poster. Very good advise. The one reason i cant consult with lawyers is i dun have the mean to seek their services. Okay so what i have to do now is No.1 to find the fund for their service is that right ? There is no other way out?

Perhaps can i convince my investors to pay for the services ? In short just fund everything right from the start. In return i will dedicated my whole time to it and they will have a bigger return for their resources. Will this work out ?

What do you guys think ? Come on keep the advise pouring in continously.

Thank you very much

Avante - do you expect anyone to invest in your idea if they don't know what it is? Even if your projected returns are HUGE. The bigger the projected returns the more nervous I'd be as an investor because it sounds unrealistic.

If I came to you and said "I have a great idea that will benefit the world and create huge revenue streams. I can't tell you what it is until after you have given me quite a lot of money. Now please give me your money." Would you give me any money?

Do you have any commercial / business experience? How have you come up with the projected revenue figure?

What makes you think your idea is so good? You too Jingthing... what's so great about your invention that you haven't done something with it?

Edit: I note the projected revenue figure has been deleted. For everyones information for the benefit of the discussion it was VERY VERY large... (Can I say that mods?)

Hi byoung2. You do have a point. In fact i agree with you. How am i suppose to get an investor to fund my invention without telling them what it is. Its like investing in a unseen LOS spaceship disneyland that could fly to the sun at the speed of light lol.

Okay. I AM going to reveal my concept. It just that i will only reveal after i filed my patent with a lawyer. This is the only complicated part. I just want to protect myself.

The rest are fairly straight forward. My invention does not cost a bomb to manufacture it. The return are high. I do have strong personal business experience from before and skilled in marketing. The only i lack experience is dealing with investors and the law in business. And i will not stop until this product is launched out successfully.

Thank you. Keep all information big or small coming. Very appreciated

[OriginalPoster]

Good point. Something being patentable doesn't necesarily mean that it's something valuable, it just means that it's different than prior art and that the patent examiner didn't think that it fell into the "perputual motion machine" category. The vast majority of patents generate zero revenue.

Exactly... almost. They do generate a significant amount of revenue...

For the lawyers

Yeah, and for engineers they look great on a resume.

[Avante]

Good point. Something being patentable doesn't necesarily mean that it's something valuable, it just means that it's different than prior art and that the patent examiner didn't think that it fell into the "perputual motion machine" category. The vast majority of patents generate zero revenue.

Exactly... almost. They do generate a significant amount of revenue...

For the lawyers

Yeah, and for engineers they look great on a resume.

Haha..you guys do have a great sense of humour. Hey Original Poster. I think i will give your suggestion a try. Giving a percentage of the patent royalties to the investor. Kinda win win situation.

[loong]

You can, I believe discuss your ideas with prospective investors, but they must sign a confidentiality agreement first.

At least pay a lawyer to draft a proper agreement.

[Jingthing]

In the US anyway, patent lawyers do very well indeed. Usually most of their clients are corporations with deep pockets, not Joe Blow in the garage types. My point is the system is stacked against Joe Blow in the garage types.

[Avante]

You can, I believe discuss your ideas with prospective investors, but they must sign a confidentiality agreement first.

At least pay a lawyer to draft a proper agreement.

Interesting Loong. Thank you for your tip. Can you tell me more about this confidentiality agreement ? Maybe a rough fee expense on getting a lawyer to do this will greatly help too.

[OriginalPoster]

In the US anyway, patent lawyers do very well indeed. Usually most of their clients are corporations with deep pockets, not Joe Blow in the garage types. My point is the system is stacked against Joe Blow in the garage types.

Anecdotal evidence would seem to support that notion (that the patent system is stacked against Joe Blow). Can't tell you how many times the guy sitting on the bar stool next to me told me of some multinational company stealing his invention and making millions of dollars off it.

[OriginalPoster]

You can, I believe discuss your ideas with prospective investors, but they must sign a confidentiality agreement first.

At least pay a lawyer to draft a proper agreement.

Interesting Loong. Thank you for your tip. Can you tell me more about this confidentiality agreement ? Maybe a rough fee expense on getting a lawyer to do this will greatly help too.

It's called a Nondisclosure Agreement (NDA). Has dual utility in your case - binds the 3rd party not to talk and it demonstrates that you were intending to protect your IP and not intending to make it public domain. A patent lawyer can advise you on all these things.

Edited March 14, 2009 by OriginalPoster