Flooding The World With $

[Naam]

i wonder whether those of us (and that includes me) who oppose whatever measures are taken globally are qualified to judge those measures or the initiators. this is neither a rhetorical nor an academic question and i would like to hear some opinions.

I am not qualified to judge those measures or the initiators but.......

It is obvious by judging the mess we are in that neither were/are the initiators. Since they are pretty much the same group/groups that made this mess.

I will say though that qualified or not.............The customer who is picking up the tab for dinner should at least have a say in what the h#ll he is swallowing

To that end I am trying my best not to eat

i agree, but what are the alternatives?

[Jake1]

It seems to me quantative easing is making matters worse not better .

Quantitative easing is like running low on oil and deciding to throw some water in the mix

You have more Oil but it makes your car run like sh1t

i wonder whether those of us (and that includes me) who oppose whatever measures are taken globally are qualified to judge those measures or the initiators. this is neither a rhetorical nor an academic question and i would like to hear some opinions.

I am qualified to judge and complain about all of the actions taken during this mess, not because I graduated with a degree from a school of Keynesian Economics but because it is my right and duty to do so. Other countries can do as they please but it pisses me off to high hel_l when my country..the U.S takes actions that are not to benefit the people, but to benefit a select few. As per my constitution counterfeiting money which is exactly what the Federal Reserve does, is punishable by death.

The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens.

-John Keynes

Edited March 22, 2009 by Jake1

[flying]

i wonder whether those of us (and that includes me) who oppose whatever measures are taken globally are qualified to judge those measures or the initiators. this is neither a rhetorical nor an academic question and i would like to hear some opinions.

I am not qualified to judge those measures or the initiators but.......

It is obvious by judging the mess we are in that neither were/are the initiators. Since they are pretty much the same group/groups that made this mess.

I will say though that qualified or not.............The customer who is picking up the tab for dinner should at least have a say in what the h#ll he is swallowing

To that end I am trying my best not to eat

i agree, but what are the alternatives?

I think you already have a good alternative as I have seen pictures of your alternative & read your posts regarding the US & Europe.

I am trying to basically have the same alternative as you. But I am not as well prepared.

Basically you found a better restaurant to eat at

Sure it may lack a few amenities we find elsewhere but it also lacks many of the problems & unfair expenses.

[Naam]

i wonder whether those of us (and that includes me) who oppose whatever measures are taken globally are qualified to judge those measures or the initiators. this is neither a rhetorical nor an academic question and i would like to hear some opinions.

I am not qualified to judge those measures or the initiators but.......

It is obvious by judging the mess we are in that neither were/are the initiators. Since they are pretty much the same group/groups that made this mess.

I will say though that qualified or not.............The customer who is picking up the tab for dinner should at least have a say in what the h#ll he is swallowing

To that end I am trying my best not to eat

i agree, but what are the alternatives?

I think you already have a good alternative as I have seen pictures of your alternative & read your posts regarding the US & Europe.

I am trying to basically have the same alternative as you. But I am not as well prepared.

Basically you found a better restaurant to eat at

Sure it may lack a few amenities we find elsewhere but it also lacks many of the problems & unfair expenses.

i am not talking about alternatives we little people have Flying. what i meant is what alternatives have we, who criticise the politicians for their actions, to offer/suggest how they should proceed? it goes without saying that our blood boils when we hear about the billions of bail-outs and nearly at the same time hundreds of millions of bonuses.

[flying]

i am not talking about alternatives we little people have Flying. what i meant is what alternatives have we, who criticise the politicians for their actions, to offer/suggest how they should proceed? it goes without saying that our blood boils when we hear about the billions of bail-outs and nearly at the same time hundreds of millions of bonuses.

Ahhhhhh I see

Well on the one hand I feel those who like sausage or politics should not watch either being made

On the other hand I feel like just dropping off the grid & saying F$ck it...Let them have it.

But ok if I had to say I would say how about a little common sense? This whole financial crisis is at that....If a tree falls & none are there to hear it does it make a sound? Bullsh!t Stage......Of course it f*cking makes a sound quit trying to divert the attention.

Stop the insanity...........We all dam_n well know what is beyond the beyond. They have reached that point. It is time to start cutting off some hands & show the country & the world that stealing may have gone under the common sense radar but it is not beyond prosecution even now.

Reverse what has not worked. If a lot of this bailout was as they say simple deleting electronically then reverse it. Put it back & let it fail.

That is a start.......But basically that is what I personally want to see A START

A Start in a new direction

Not more of the same.

I do not think America voted for Obama per se"

They voted for Change & yet we continue.

CHANGE !

Stop coddling the idiots that got us into this mess.......JAIL them instead

Make them wait while others untangle their mess. Do not ask their advise. Isn't it obvious where that got us?

Why is Obama's cabinet more of the same?

We should just impeach that guy now & get it over with .....& Yes I actually did vote for him/Change

Edited March 22, 2009 by flying

[AlexLah]

They should have done nothing!

Let them sort that mess they created by/between themselves, and if AIG does not have enough cash to pay out the contracts then that's it.

Bankrupt is the only solution for those criminal institutes.

I think we will see AIG going broke within a few months and hopefully some of the other too big too fail as well.

From there you can start building a better more transparant honest system.

But as long as there are those powerhungry psychopaths in control it will take a long time unless the people on the street take action and hang a few of them.

Would not be that difficult to gather a few hundred people and cover the entrance and exit of a HQ and take control.

Good example are those flashmobs in where sometimes thousands of peeps appear out of nothing.

[Naam]

They should have done nothing!

my posting copied&pasted from another thread:

let another bank with international derivative ties, the size of Lehman, fail and you will think the present crisis is a relaxing walk in the park on a mild day in spring.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Naam

[Naam]

I think we will see AIG going broke within a few months and hopefully some of the other too big too fail as well.

basically i like your proposal chopping off hands. i'd even add feet as the Sharia law prescribes for repetitive thieves. but be careful what you wish for Alex. like many others -who are rightfully pÍssed off ² and full of anger- you don't seem to have the faintest idea of the implications. and i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

[AlexLah]

Naam the point is that these criminals created this themselves, why must the taxpayer be responsible and pay the debts his neighbour has made by wrongly betting in a casino. And that is exactly what they are doing now.

This whole threatening with catastrophe and total meltdown is just scaremongering, very similair to what Bush was doing with his terror crap.

It started with creditcrunch, Subprime bla bla, all the rethoric went from mildly bad to global financial meltdown.

And where they said that with the first 350 Billion things should be OK, now it's gonna be Trillions and perhaps tens of Trillions of funny money that can never ever be paid back unless they create some kind of hyperinflation where the 13 Trillion dollar can be payed back with just 13 pieces of paper with a 1 and many zero's is printed on.

The ones that are really having fun out of all of this will never come into the spotlight.

[lannarebirth]

They should have done nothing!

my posting copied&pasted from another thread:

let another bank with international derivative ties, the size of Lehman, fail and you will think the present crisis is a relaxing walk in the park on a mild day in spring.

Yes, I agree with that. And yes too, our collective blood is boiling over the costs. Even worse however, is the appearance of collusion between governments, who exist to protect the citizens interests, and some of the worst perpatrators of corporate fraud.

While it won't claw a single dollar back by indicting 100's of key figures who basically engaged in fraud, it would at least serve to give governments a shred of credibility while dealing with this grand clusterfuc_k. they NEED the people on their side, in the long run. Not just those who will agree to anything to make their stocks rise again.

They will probably have to grant immunity from prosecution to certain key figures or their will be no incentive to offer further assistance. Jesus, what a mess.

Edited March 22, 2009 by lannarebirth

[flying]

i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

I would like to hear a few.

I do not doubt what you say but would like to hear some specifics.

At times I have the feeling a lot of this bailing out is actually going to other countries.

The reason being we in a sense passed counterfeit & are being threatened with fix it or........

[GuestHouse]

basically i like your proposal chopping off hands. i'd even add feet as the Sharia law prescribes for repetitive thieves. but be careful what you wish for Alex. like many others -who are rightfully pÍssed off ² and full of anger- you don't seem to have the faintest idea of the implications. and i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

Indeed, and this I think is the answer to your question over who is able to judge the rights and wrongs of what needs to be done.

In the end that has to be our elected leaders, and while I accept the argument that as citizens in (or at least of) a democracy we need to hold our government's accountable we also need to understand the thin line between a government responding to our wishes and a government responding to the mob. We elect our governments, let them take the responsibility they asked for and let them get on with the job.

At risk is something far more than your (or my) personal wealth - allow economies to collapse and there are real risks of social breakdown and all that comes with it. We need only go back to the depression of the 30s to see the consequences of social breakdown and how it may be used against us all.

Rightous indignation over fat cat bonuses and individuals who aided and abetted the financial collapse might make us feel good - but the hard choice is not one of how to take revenge (or even achieve justice) but one of how do we get the economy back working again and avoid the consequences of failing to do so.

You might personally want to nail a bank of your choice (and all its senior staff) but what you want and what you need are not the same thing. What you need is a return to financial growth and the maintenance of civil cohesion.

----

And anyway, stock prices shooting up way beyond earnings, house prices at ludicrous multiples of average annual earnings, exchange rates that gave you buying power beyond your dreams - who here was not lapping it up when times were seemingly so very good?

Stop pointing the finger, the problem is closer to home than you think.

It's simply time to pay up.

[flying]

who here was not lapping it up when times were seemingly so very good?

Stop pointing the finger, the problem is closer to home than you think.

It's simply time to pay up.

I am raising my hand.................Does that mean I do not have to pay?

Rightous indignation over fat cat bonuses and individuals who aided and abetted the financial collapse might make us feel good - but the hard choice is not one of how to take revenge (or even achieve justice) but one of how do we get the economy back working again and avoid the consequences of failing to do so.

Exactly when would you say it was working correctly? Do you mean when it was lapping up time? See this is what I do not understand. This call for complacency even now when the tree is smashing to the ground with the loudest bang perhaps we have ever heard........Folks still ask does it make a sound?

[AlexLah]

What exactly do you mean by It's time to pay up?

I don't complain (now) about the bonusses, that is peanuts if you compare it with how much money is involved in paying all those counter party's.

And that is the root of this mess, if it where only a few mortgages down the drain, that is a simple problem to solve.

OK let's say AIG goes finaly broke, what you think will happen next?

Maybe people start realising that this world we live in is a bit of science fiction.

[lannarebirth]

basically i like your proposal chopping off hands. i'd even add feet as the Sharia law prescribes for repetitive thieves. but be careful what you wish for Alex. like many others -who are rightfully pÍssed off ² and full of anger- you don't seem to have the faintest idea of the implications. and i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

Indeed, and this I think is the answer to your question over who is able to judge the rights and wrongs of what needs to be done.

In the end that has to be our elected leaders, and while I accept the argument that as citizens in (or at least of) a democracy we need to hold our government's accountable we also need to understand the thin line between a government responding to our wishes and a government responding to the mob. We elect our governments, let them take the responsibility they asked for and let them get on with the job.

At risk is something far more than your (or my) personal wealth - allow economies to collapse and there are real risks of social breakdown and all that comes with it. We need only go back to the depression of the 30s to see the consequences of social breakdown and how it may be used against us all.

Rightous indignation over fat cat bonuses and individuals who aided and abetted the financial collapse might make us feel good - but the hard choice is not one of how to take revenge (or even achieve justice) but one of how do we get the economy back working again and avoid the consequences of failing to do so.

You might personally want to nail a bank of your choice (and all its senior staff) but what you want and what you need are not the same thing. What you need is a return to financial growth and the maintenance of civil cohesion.

----

And anyway, stock prices shooting up way beyond earnings, house prices at ludicrous multiples of average annual earnings, exchange rates that gave you buying power beyond your dreams - who here was not lapping it up when times were seemingly so very good?

Stop pointing the finger, the problem is closer to home than you think.

It's simply time to pay up.

It's the government behavior that is the issue, not the bankers. Everyone knows, or at least should know that bankers push things to the brink, in every case, in order to maximize their own income. It is the government response that is the sole issue. Thus far they appear to be complicit in this corporate raid of national treasuries. The revolving doors between government and corporate finance have ensured Trillions of dollars of self dealing from public treasuries to corporate balance sheets and managements wealth. Government needs to differentiate themselves from these people or they will lose their authority to govern.

[GuestHouse]

It's the government behavior that is the issue, not the bankers.

Which government would that be, if you are talking about the government at the heart of this problem (that of the US) then you perhaps ought to know it was recently voted out.

I am raising my hand.................Does that mean I do not have to pay?

You must have been living your life in some kind of hermetically sealed bubble not to have benefitted in the slightest from the boom of the last few years.... but then maybe you were.

[churchill]

Our governments are spending our taxes and pensions , and they have little idea about economics - Brown sold the UK's Gold at under $300 - If they get it wrong they are sometimes voted out ( Brown's still there ), but what responsibility do they have for their actions .

Governments are able to borrow / print money , where a company in the same situation would be bust , with the directors out of a job .

Governments should be run and managed as a company that takes very little risk - If they cannot raise the cash through taxes they they should not be able to spend it -

I suppose it is too late now and future generations will have to work themselves out of the mess caused by the present lot - I hope that too much money is not printed otherwise it will not be our children suffering but also our grandchildren .

Edited March 22, 2009 by churchill

[Naam]

i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

At times I have the feeling a lot of this bailing out is actually going to other countries.

yeah right! that's exactly in line with the decade long thinking of some of my dear american redneck friends who think potatoes, orange juice, bottom round, steaks and you name it would be much cheaper in the GNoE™ and the taxes would be much lower if the goods and the money were not exported to countries full of worthless people who lie under the shade of trees and are supported by american aid

[Naam]

i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

I would like to hear a few. I do not doubt what you say but would like to hear some specifics.

my posting from another Fred:

a total collapse can be still avoided, albeit at extremely high future cost for the taxpayers who will still have jobs and the hunger of people who don't. the alternative (you and others ask for) is a global freeze of all transactions, not limited to financial transactions but including trading of any goods, an unemployment rate of unheard dimensions, breakdown of utility supplies and health care due to insufficient energy supplies... just to name a few "small problems" without much reference to the fact that then the apocalyptic riders would really gallop.

[flying]

i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

At times I have the feeling a lot of this bailing out is actually going to other countries.

yeah right! that's exactly in line with the decade long thinking of some of my dear american redneck friends who think potatoes, orange juice, bottom round, steaks and you name it would be much cheaper in the GNoE™ and the taxes would be much lower if the goods and the money were not exported to countries full of worthless people who lie under the shade of trees and are supported by american aid

Trust me when I say I am as far from a redneck as is possible & still be in the same race...

But I remember reading parts of the original bailout that allowed the use of funds to be used anywhere in the world. I am not saying it benefits others as you describe but at times I have wondered if we were trying to make amends for some of the toxic bundles we sold. Which I thought in a sense amounted to counterfeit.

But your going down a very different street with your response & one that I have not traveled.

[Naam]

i am not talking about "potential" implications, i am talking "implications FOR SURE!"

At times I have the feeling a lot of this bailing out is actually going to other countries.

yeah right! that's exactly in line with the decade long thinking of some of my dear american redneck friends who think potatoes, orange juice, bottom round, steaks and you name it would be much cheaper in the GNoE™ and the taxes would be much lower if the goods and the money were not exported to countries full of worthless people who lie under the shade of trees and are supported by american aid

Trust me when I say I am as far from a redneck as is possible & still be in the same race...

But I remember reading parts of the original bailout that allowed the use of funds to be used anywhere in the world. I am not saying it benefits others as you describe but at times I have wondered if we were trying to make amends for some of the toxic bundles we sold. Which I thought in a sense amounted to counterfeit.

But your going down a very different street with your response & one that I have not traveled.

i am responding step by step. answering a dozen embedded questions with a dozen answers or responding to as many statements (as others do) is not my style.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Naam

[lannarebirth]

It's the government behavior that is the issue, not the bankers.

Which government would that be, if you are talking about the government at the heart of this problem (that of the US) then you perhaps ought to know it was recently voted out.

The US certainly, the UK, and others more or less on the same page but more secretive in their efforts.

Surely you can see all the principal players remain regardless of who is voted in or out. they're always there.

I am raising my hand.................Does that mean I do not have to pay?

You must have been living your life in some kind of hermetically sealed bubble not to have benefitted in the slightest from the boom of the last few years.... but then maybe you were.

[flying]

You must have been living your life in some kind of hermetically sealed bubble not to have benefited in the slightest from the boom of the last few years.... but then maybe you were.

Yes basically something like that. I dont think it is as rare or hermetic as you think though & I am not saying at times I dont look back & wish I had benefited from the madness.......

But I did not

Edited March 23, 2009 by flying