Uk Settlement

[tjthai]

Hi 7by7 thanks for your interest.

Here is the Refusal Notice.

The Entry Clearance Officer's decision

I have refused your visa application without interview on this occasion because I am

not satisfied, on the balance of probabilitjes, that you meet all of the requirements of

section 301 of the Immigration Rules in particular, sections (i) ( ©. This decision

was made on the merits of this application. However, if you have a previous

application and immigration history, this may have been considered.

The Entry Clearance Officer's reasons and supporting evidence

Information given to you by the Visa Application Centre (VFS) - Thailand, our

outsource partner, on submission of your application as well as guidance on their

web site, (www.vfs-uk-th.com) adequately informs visa applicants about the

recommended supporting documents to be provided with their application. You have

applied for an entry clearance in order to accompany your mother with a view to

settlement. It has not been necessary to interview you in order to reach a decision on

this occasion. Your application has therefore been assessed based on information in

your application form and supplementary documentation.

I

I note the divorce certificate relating to your mother and father with your application.

Your application states that you have lived with various people over the course of the

last fifteen years. I bear in mind that the stated date on your parents' divorce

certificate is 4th July 2002. Given the fact that your parents' marriage was legally

registered in Thailand , it would have been acceptable for at least, the memorandum

relating to your parents' divorce, setting out which one of your parents had custody of

you. This concern aside, you have failed to provide satisfactory documentation

establishing which of your parents currently has custody of you. Whilst I note the

chronology of your life since 1993 to date with your application, the fact still remains

that your parents were not in a common-law relationship (this would have allowed

custody of you to automatically fall to your mother following separation) but were

married couple. It is also evident from your life's chronology that your mother has had

very little involvement in your day to day welfare, even though she has been ideally

and geographically well placed to do so. You are now fifteen years of age. I have

assessed all the supplementary documentation with your application very carefully

and I am satisfied on balance that there is no evidence in your application confirming

that your mother has sole responsibility of you. Conversely, however, I am satisfied

that your mother, your Uncle (Saeree), your Auntie (Ubon) and your father have had

shared responsibility of you for the past 15 years. (i)(

Based on the information with your application I concur with the statement in your

application that you have not lived with your mother throughout your formative

years or at least, since 2002. I am therefore not satisfied that there are serious

and compelling family or other considerations which makes your exclusion from

the UK undesirable. I am further satisfied that suitable arrangements are in place

for your care your care in Thailand as required by paragraph (i) ©.

In reaching my decision, I have also taken account of the Human Rights Act. Whilst I

accept that this decision constitutes limited interference with Article 8, I remind myself

that this is a qualified right, and I am satisfied that the decision is justified and

proportionate in the interests of maintaining an effective Immigration Control. I am

also aware of the fact that there is nothing in English law, which prohibits the sponsor

from travelling to Thailand and enjoying family life with you here in this country.

I therefore refuse your application.

We gave them a chronology of my Stepdaughters life from the time her Mother and Father divorced. She came to live with us February 2009 and before was at a boarding school in Bangkok. We gace a letter from the school in Hua Hin where we live together. Mother has custody but we did not send it.

I believe that they needed to see the custody - although this is not a legal requirement as sole responsibilty is what they are looking for. We stated that there is no one to look after my stepdaughter in her Mother's absence but the ECO simply says he is satisfied that she would be cared for. This is our question as to why he feels satisfied as he does not justify his conclusion.

I must say in fairness that the sole responsibility issue and serious and compelling reasons we can provide proof as my Wife was solely responsible for her daughter in the previous 3 years and we have a letter from her Grandparents stating this along with stating that they cannot look after her - we have this to send now!!

Indeed I have faxed that to the ECM today and will be dropping more documents off tomorrow at the embassy - if at all possible

We do satisfy both paragraphs now but we did think that the serious and compelling reasons was covered before anyway as there is no one to look after her.

Your comments are welcome even if they say we should have given them more docs

Any advice regarding how to get documents to be read by the ECM in a timely fashion would be great as my stepdaughter has already missed beginning of UK school term.

Best wishes

TJ

Edited September 27, 2009 by tjthai

[tjthai]

I can assure you that the ECO didn't put the smileys in the Refusal Notice.............I have tried editing but they come back. The smiley should be the paragraphs i, b & c of 301 Rules

[tjthai]

Thanks uaelaelil

Am I right in assuming that you haven't actually submitted any documents to the embassy but are waiting for the AIT?

Good luck with everything.

Thanks

TJ

[7by7]

Mother has custody but we did not send it.

I believe that they needed to see the custody - although this is not a legal requirement as sole responsibility is what they are looking for.

It's both sole responsibility and sole custody that you need to show.

On sole responsibility, from the refusal notice:

Your application states that you have lived with various people over the course of the last fifteen years.

Who? Your wife and/or her relatives or the father and/or his?

It is also evident from your life's chronology that your mother has had very little involvement in your day to day welfare, even though she has been ideally and geographically well placed to do so. You are now fifteen years of age. I have assessed all the supplementary documentation with your application very carefully and I am satisfied on balance that there is no evidence in your application confirming that your mother has sole responsibility of you.

Is this correct? If so, what has changed? If it's incorrect, can you provide evidence to show this?

Conversely, however, I am satisfied that your mother, your Uncle (Saeree), your Auntie (Ubon) and your father have had shared responsibility of you for the past 15 years.

Shared responsibility does not satisfy the requirements of the rules; it must be sole responsibility.

Who are Saeree and Ubon? Why cannot they and/or the father continue to care for the child?

I concur with the statement in your application that you have not lived with your mother throughout your formative years or at least, since 2002

Is this correct; she has not lived with her mother for the last 7 years? OK, you say that she has been at boarding school; who arranged this? Who paid the fees? Who did she stay with during school holidays?

I am therefore not satisfied that there are serious and compelling family or other considerations which makes your exclusion from the UK undesirable. I am further satisfied that suitable arrangements are in place for your care your care in Thailand

I have to say that based on the refusal notice and the information you have provided, this appears to be a correct conclusion! It appears that for most of her life following her parents divorce she has been in the care of her father or his relatives, not your wife and hers.

If it is an incorrect conclusion then you need to show that it is. The various questions I have asked do not need to be answered here, but must be answered in the appeal submission!

This appears to be a very complex case; it is not a case of the ECO not considering all the evidence or the applicant missing out some evidence (although some was evidently missed out, like the sole custody.) I would strongly advise you to seek professional advice as soon as possible. That is either an OISC adviser qualified to handle appeals or an immigration solicitor.

I'm afraid that once you have submitted the appeal all you can do is wait. This flow chart gives some idea of the timescales involved.

[tjthai]

Mother has custody but we did not send it.

I believe that they needed to see the custody - although this is not a legal requirement as sole responsibility is what they are looking for.

It's both sole responsibility and sole custody that you need to show.

On sole responsibility, from the refusal notice:

Your application states that you have lived with various people over the course of the last fifteen years.

Who? Your wife and/or her relatives or the father and/or his? Most of time with Great Uncle and Aunt (Saeree and Ubon) on Father's side. They call themselves Grandparents!

It is also evident from your life's chronology that your mother has had very little involvement in your day to day welfare, even though she has been ideally and geographically well placed to do so. You are now fifteen years of age. I have assessed all the supplementary documentation with your application very carefully and I am satisfied on balance that there is no evidence in your application confirming that your mother has sole responsibility of you.

Is this correct? If so, what has changed? If it's incorrect, can you provide evidence to show this? We can show letter from Saeree and Ubon stating that in 2006 her Mother and them decided daughter should go to boarding school plus letters between Mother and daughter during that period and letter from school.

Conversely, however, I am satisfied that your mother, your Uncle (Saeree), your Auntie (Ubon) and your father have had shared responsibility of you for the past 15 years.

Shared responsibility does not satisfy the requirements of the rules; it must be sole responsibility.

Who are Saeree and Ubon? Why cannot they and/or the father continue to care for the child? They haven't cared for her for 3 years as getting older since Mother took over responsibility.

I concur with the statement in your application that you have not lived with your mother throughout your formative years or at least, since 2002

Is this correct; she has not lived with her mother for the last 7 years? OK, you say that she has been at boarding school; who arranged this? Who paid the fees? Who did she stay with during school holidays? It is correct that they have not lived together since 2002 but since 2006 her Mother has been responsible with regards care, money etc. The school was free so no payments needed there.

I am therefore not satisfied that there are serious and compelling family or other considerations which makes your exclusion from the UK undesirable. I am further satisfied that suitable arrangements are in place for your care your care in Thailand

I have to say that based on the refusal notice and the information you have provided, this appears to be a correct conclusion! It appears that for most of her life following her parents divorce she has been in the care of her father or his relatives, not your wife and hers. Until 2006 yes but how long does one have to show Sole Responsibility for?

If it is an incorrect conclusion then you need to show that it is. The various questions I have asked do not need to be answered here, but must be answered in the appeal submission!

I think it is an incorrect conclusion based on what we stated in the application but we can now show them extra evidence so feel it is a strong contender for being overturned at the Embassy.

This appears to be a very complex case; it is not a case of the ECO not considering all the evidence or the applicant missing out some evidence (although some was evidently missed out, like the sole custody.) I would strongly advise you to seek professional advice as soon as possible. That is either an OISC adviser qualified to handle appeals or an immigration solicitor.

I'm afraid that once you have submitted the appeal all you can do is wait. This flow chart gives some idea of the timescales involved.

We are getting professional help so feel confident of success......just hope it is soon given stepdaughter's need for education.

I have faxed one A4 page to the embassy with a covering note from me and the letter from the Great Uncle. This confirms what we said in the chronology . Tomorrow we are delivering the other documents to the embassy as well.

I would like to speak with an ECO or the ECM but I assume there is no chance?

Thanks 7by7 for your advice. We remain cross fingered!

Edited September 27, 2009 by tjthai

[simiUK]

yeah... they must have been snowed under with student applications... they processed a total of 4 during the whole of august!? just been reading through the last internal audit report of the bangkok embassy visa services department (will post the link if anyones interseted).

Yes, please.

hi guys...link attached is for the "Independent Monitor for Entry Clearance Report - Bangkok 2007"... highlights for me... (though there are many others...)

- Bangkok is the most complained about overseas UK visa services post in the world

- From the sample of refusal notices the monitor assessed 10% were not in accord with the immigration rules

- Individual ECO refusal rates showed a wide variation between 6% and 15%

- In the financial year 2005/6 (before the fees went up dramatically) they made a profit of £421,018

i dont know how to paste links! so soz if this doesnt launch but you can see where its kept (pdf file):

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/resources/en/doc...endBangkokNov07

[simiUK]

I can assure you that the ECO didn't put the smileys in the Refusal Notice.............I have tried editing but they come back. The smiley should be the paragraphs i, b & c of 301 Rules

BEST OF LUCK tomorrow TJ!.. you might bump into my missus she has her interview at the embassy tomorrow afternoon! hope you're additional info' gets the ECM to change his mind rather than the 6 month plus AIT trauma...! there seem to be other guys like 7 by 7 more clued up on details relating to the application of the rules but I guess specialist legal advice is the best route. the bit that concerns me at the end of your refusal letter is the implication that you have the option to all stay together in thailand thus not disrupting your family life in contravention of Human Rights law... worries me that they could argue the same in refusing us since in applying for a visit for marriage visa last year I did say in my covering letter I was considering at that time (though not at present) moving to thailand to work... anyway... we've done our best to supply them voluntary with clarifications relating to our immigration history and i have had no contact with them asking for further info on any of the other stuff so fingers crossed... i also had a return call this week from the Leeds Presenting Officer who represented the UKBA at our tribunal hearing who said he was puzzled why they were interviewing... he suggested i resend the summary determination letterin case they had overlooked it.

[Globaleyes]

Sorry to hear about the recent refusals, I hope things can be sorted out.

[potter09]

yeah... they must have been snowed under with student applications... they processed a total of 4 during the whole of august!? just been reading through the last internal audit report of the bangkok embassy visa services department (will post the link if anyones interseted).

Yes, please.

hi guys...link attached is for the "Independent Monitor for Entry Clearance Report - Bangkok 2007"... highlights for me... (though there are many others...)

- Bangkok is the most complained about overseas UK visa services post in the world

- From the sample of refusal notices the monitor assessed 10% were not in accord with the immigration rules

- Individual ECO refusal rates showed a wide variation between 6% and 15%

- In the financial year 2005/6 (before the fees went up dramatically) they made a profit of £421,018

i dont know how to paste links! so soz if this doesnt launch but you can see where its kept (pdf file):

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/resources/en/doc...endBangkokNov07

Thanks for the link to 2007 Report. The Independent Monitor(IM), also finds that:

In relation to complaints, "There are good reasons to explain that which have no connection with the quality of service or decision making. A significant proportion of visit visa applicants are Thai women who have met a UK man and who apply for a visit visa to continue a holiday relationship. It is not surprising that the UK sponsor is concerned, confused, outraged or appalled when an application is refused because many UK citizens are not familiar with the trength of entry control."

"Bangkok, handling a larger proportion of feedback correspondence than most Posts, has more developed practices than I have seen elsewhere."

"Information at the Application Centre was Good. Though there were fewer signs at the Embassy that the needs of applicants and sponsors were being thoughtfully addressed, staff acted quickly on my observations. Performance in the file sample was Fair. Complaint handling was Fair to Good. Adding all these components together, my overall assessment is that Bangkok's performance is Fair. It could, and should, be much better."

It is also clear that UK visas have responded to all of the concerns/recommendations of the IM in 2007.

[simiUK]

yeah... they must have been snowed under with student applications... they processed a total of 4 during the whole of august!? just been reading through the last internal audit report of the bangkok embassy visa services department (will post the link if anyones interseted).

Yes, please.

hi guys...link attached is for the "Independent Monitor for Entry Clearance Report - Bangkok 2007"... highlights for me... (though there are many others...)

- Bangkok is the most complained about overseas UK visa services post in the world

- From the sample of refusal notices the monitor assessed 10% were not in accord with the immigration rules

- Individual ECO refusal rates showed a wide variation between 6% and 15%

- In the financial year 2005/6 (before the fees went up dramatically) they made a profit of £421,018

i dont know how to paste links! so soz if this doesnt launch but you can see where its kept (pdf file):

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/resources/en/doc...endBangkokNov07

Thanks for the link to 2007 Report. The Independent Monitor(IM), also finds that:

In relation to complaints, "There are good reasons to explain that which have no connection with the quality of service or decision making. A significant proportion of visit visa applicants are Thai women who have met a UK man and who apply for a visit visa to continue a holiday relationship. It is not surprising that the UK sponsor is concerned, confused, outraged or appalled when an application is refused because many UK citizens are not familiar with the trength of entry control."

"Bangkok, handling a larger proportion of feedback correspondence than most Posts, has more developed practices than I have seen elsewhere."

"Information at the Application Centre was Good. Though there were fewer signs at the Embassy that the needs of applicants and sponsors were being thoughtfully addressed, staff acted quickly on my observations. Performance in the file sample was Fair. Complaint handling was Fair to Good. Adding all these components together, my overall assessment is that Bangkok's performance is Fair. It could, and should, be much better."

It is also clear that UK visas have responded to all of the concerns/recommendations of the IM in 2007.

accepted... there are areas in this report where mitigations have been observed, offered and recorded... there are also however areas where poor practice and performance has been recorded without mitigation. the reader can come to his/her own conclusion as to what a "fair" overall level of performance constitutes. my main points are twofold in relation to the stresses many of the people share on this thread: with such large financial surpluses why are resources not increased commensurately to reduce the longer waiting times that now seem to be the norm, and to improve verification processes? and... if you're unlucky enough to be one of those small number of credible/qualifying applicants that has been wrongly refused its no consolation that Bangkok performs poorly relatively to other posts in relation to the number of refusals that 6 months down the line are overturned at AIT tribunals.

[tjthai]

simiuk

Valid points indeed! If they can make such a profit on the previous fees then just think what a profit centre it must be for them now!

Anyway, thanks Simiuk we wish your missus good luck tomorrow. I don't think you need worry about the comment about living in Thailand - I have been informed it is standard wording - I live in Thailand so it annoyed, but not at all surprised, me that as a British Citizen, running a UK based company paying tax in the UK, I was told to stay in Thailand!

Chok dee

Edited September 27, 2009 by tjthai

[7by7]

The report is 2 years old and most of the recommendations were accepted by UKVisas. I wonder how it reflects the current situation.

with such large financial surpluses why are resources not increased commensurately to reduce the longer waiting times that now seem to be the norm

Ask Gordon Brown; it is his government that sets both the fees and the staffing levels.

One point on the surplus; this is not kept by the visa section and shared out among the staff at Christmas! As said, the fees are set by the government, who openly acknowledge that the majority of them are well above the actual cost of providing the service (see this ministerial statement) and any surplus is used to fund areas of the UKBAs work where even this government cannot justify a charge, such as immigration officers at ports of entry, or are not legally allowed to, such as EEA applications. Any profit after that disappears into the general exchequer.

Maybe one reason for the longer processing times is that following the IM's report ECOs are now spending more time in meetings and therefore less time processing applications!

its no consolation that Bangkok performs poorly relatively to other posts in relation to the number of refusals that 6 months down the line are overturned at AIT tribunals

I could find no mention in the report on the number of refusals with appeal rights which are subsequently overturned, either in post or by the AIT. Can you point it out to me please?

[7by7]

Tjthai,

You seem to have answers for all the concerns expressed in the refusal notice, just make sure that you provide all the paperwork possible to show that the mother now has sole responsibility and has been exercising same since 2006. Explain that the uncle and aunt are now to old to are for the child, and also what has happened to the father and why he is no longer taking an interest.

In my opinion, the main concern of the ECO is that the child has been in the care of her parental relatives with the mother taking little or no interest. However, now that her mother is moving to the UK the family have got together to pass responsibility to the mother so that the child can get into the UK as well. You need to show that this is not the case.

Best of luck.

On a personal note, are you sure that moving to the UK is best for the child?

When my wife and I married her daughter was 9 and so young enough to adapt, moving to the UK with her mother was obviously the best thing for her.

However her son was coming up to 17 and in his final year at high school with the prospect of a place at university. We thought long and hard, with much soul searching and discussion, naturally involving him in the decision. In the end we decided that moving to a foreign country and entering a different education system undertaken in a language which he could barely speak would set his education back considerably. So we reluctantly decided that the best thing for him was to remain in Bangkok with his aunt and continue his education there.

A decision which seems to have paid off as he graduated from university and is now embarked upon a good career with a major Thai bank.

I appreciate that your step-daughter is slightly younger, but the older a child is the harder they find it to adapt to a change of schooling; especially if the system is different and conducted in a foreign language. Therefore I think that both you and your wife should seriously consider if moving to the UK is in her daughters best long term interests.

Also, what does the young lady herself want?

You may have gone through all the above considerations and discussions, of course, and concluded that moving to the UK is the best thing for her and what she wants. In which case, please forgive my bringing it up.

[simiUK]

The report is 2 years old and most of the recommendations were accepted by UKVisas. I wonder how it reflects the current situation.

with such large financial surpluses why are resources not increased commensurately to reduce the longer waiting times that now seem to be the norm

Ask Gordon Brown; it is his government that sets both the fees and the staffing levels.

One point on the surplus; this is not kept by the visa section and shared out among the staff at Christmas! As said, the fees are set by the government, who openly acknowledge that the majority of them are well above the actual cost of providing the service (see this ministerial statement) and any surplus is used to fund areas of the UKBAs work where even this government cannot justify a charge, such as immigration officers at ports of entry, or are not legally allowed to, such as EEA applications. Any profit after that disappears into the general exchequer.

Maybe one reason for the longer processing times is that following the IM's report ECOs are now spending more time in meetings and therefore less time processing applications!

its no consolation that Bangkok performs poorly relatively to other posts in relation to the number of refusals that 6 months down the line are overturned at AIT tribunals

I could find no mention in the report on the number of refusals with appeal rights which are subsequently overturned, either in post or by the AIT. Can you point it out to me please?

i think this is implied in the last line of page 5 although the IM does not quantify it in terms of the comparative % performance indicator. even the most objective reader of this report in its entirity would surely concede that significant problems have been identified with the service wouldn't you agree? in relation to the quantifying point made above in defence of the number of complaints they receive... having "advanced practices" does not necessarily mean they are applied. in my experience of making legitimate appeals for information and one formal complaint these have been dealt with contrary to their published service standards. i believe the "service" i receive as a paying customer, taking account also of the amount i pay (£600) represents poor value whether the profit is syphoned off or used to cross subsidise other activities or not

[simiUK]

[

In relation to complaints, "There are good reasons to explain that which have no connection with the quality of service or decision making. A significant proportion of visit visa applicants are Thai women who have met a UK man and who apply for a visit visa to continue a holiday relationship. It is not surprising that the UK sponsor is concerned, confused, outraged or appalled when an application is refused because many UK citizens are not familiar with the trength of entry control."

"Bangkok, handling a larger proportion of feedback correspondence than most Posts, has more developed practices than I have seen elsewhere."

It is also clear that UK visas have responded to all of the concerns/recommendations of the IM in 2007.

...responding to concerns is not the same as acting upon them...i thought the recommendation of having an "ECO surgery" at the VAF office was a good one, particularly in screening out the "significant proportion" of applicants above who are most likely to have less legitimate complaints after refusal and who slow the process down for more credible applicants... i would have thought £35k out of the £421k profit would give an efficient return?... the "response" however was no because of "security" concerns! doesn't wash for me.

[7by7]

its no consolation that Bangkok performs poorly relatively to other posts in relation to the number of refusals that 6 months down the line are overturned at AIT tribunals

I could find no mention in the report on the number of refusals with appeal rights which are subsequently overturned, either in post or by the AIT. Can you point it out to me please?

i think this is implied in the last line of page 5 although the IM does not quantify it in terms of the comparative % performance indicator.

I accept that "I note that Bangkok's performance at appeal is lower than expected" casts doubt on the validity of some decisions; but how they compare to other posts is not mentioned nor implied.

I have never said that the ECOs at Bangkok are perfect (who is?). But reading forums such as this shows that the majority of wrong refusals subsequently overturned are due to the applicant not providing sufficient evidence with the original application, not to ECO poor performance or error (although, obviously, such poor performance and error does occur. Surely even you make mistakes?).

As the IM says, the high number of complaints in relation to other posts is due in large part to the ignorance of the UK's entry requirements by the UK sponsor when he and his Thai girlfriend want to continue what the IM refers to as a 'holiday relationship.' In other words, the 'I barfined her for a couple of weeks and now want to take her to the UK brigade!'

the amount i pay (£600) represents poor value

I totally agree; the fee is outrageously high, especially when you add on the cost of ILR!

When my wife and daughter came to the UK their visas were £260 each; and that included the cost of their subsequent ILR applications. Who is responsible for the large increase out of all proportion to the cost and value of the service? Gordon Brown.

Edited September 27, 2009 by 7by7

[potter09]

The report is 2 years old and most of the recommendations were accepted by UKVisas. I wonder how it reflects the current situation.

with such large financial surpluses why are resources not increased commensurately to reduce the longer waiting times that now seem to be the norm

its no consolation that Bangkok performs poorly relatively to other posts in relation to the number of refusals that 6 months down the line are overturned at AIT tribunals

I could find no mention in the report on the number of refusals with appeal rights which are subsequently overturned, either in post or by the AIT. Can you point it out to me please?

i think this is implied in the last line of page 5 although the IM does not quantify it in terms of the comparative % performance indicator.

Firstly, I am pleased you now confirm that your remark is an implied view. However,such implied view is not logically sustainable or fair, given the cited line on page 5 of IM's report,does not compare Bangkok with "other posts" or mention a time scale of "6 months". So it is clear, you have developed your own 'facts' to strengthen your implied view. Only the IM's next report would independently and authoritatively indicate whether Bangkok has done well compared to 2007, so perhaps, should wait till such time for further debate rather than advancing arguments based on unsustainable implied views. I hope your conflicts with the UKBA will soon come to an end and wishes would be granted.

[simiUK]

following a brief 10 minute interview this morning my partner had her visa granted there and then and left the embassy with the vignette applied effective from 1 october... flight booked and she will be home on friday.

thanks to everyone on here for help and support its such a stressful process to go through, best of luck to all those waiting especially TJThai... i hope you get your refusal overturned without going through the protracted appeal process. for the benefit of others who might go down the same path as me (including another guy on this thread who cocked up similarly with the fiance visit visa/FLRM catastroph') i will post a new advice thread with the benefit of hindsight and all the stuff i've learned myself and from the sages on this forum. will also endeavour to pass on constructive critical feedback to UKBA as for sure they can improve the clarity of guidance given on their website and FLRM guidance notes.

thanks again guys and good luck to everyone waiting at the moment.

[tjthai]

CONGRATULATIONS simiuk

Really pleased for you both having been through mill somewhat!

We thought of you both this morning in Bangkok. Unfortunately no luck for us, we tried to speak to someone at the Embassy this morning but no way of seeing ECM or ECO so all we could do is just drop off the paperwork with the visa section upstairs.

Oh well the wait continues

I think Friday will be a special day for you both!

TJ

[tjthai]

Tjthai,

You seem to have answers for all the concerns expressed in the refusal notice, just make sure that you provide all the paperwork possible to show that the mother now has sole responsibility and has been exercising same since 2006. Explain that the uncle and aunt are now to old to are for the child, and also what has happened to the father and why he is no longer taking an interest.

In my opinion, the main concern of the ECO is that the child has been in the care of her parental relatives with the mother taking little or no interest. However, now that her mother is moving to the UK the family have got together to pass responsibility to the mother so that the child can get into the UK as well. You need to show that this is not the case.

Best of luck.

On a personal note, are you sure that moving to the UK is best for the child?

When my wife and I married her daughter was 9 and so young enough to adapt, moving to the UK with her mother was obviously the best thing for her.

However her son was coming up to 17 and in his final year at high school with the prospect of a place at university. We thought long and hard, with much soul searching and discussion, naturally involving him in the decision. In the end we decided that moving to a foreign country and entering a different education system undertaken in a language which he could barely speak would set his education back considerably. So we reluctantly decided that the best thing for him was to remain in Bangkok with his aunt and continue his education there.

A decision which seems to have paid off as he graduated from university and is now embarked upon a good career with a major Thai bank.

I appreciate that your step-daughter is slightly younger, but the older a child is the harder they find it to adapt to a change of schooling; especially if the system is different and conducted in a foreign language. Therefore I think that both you and your wife should seriously consider if moving to the UK is in her daughters best long term interests.

Also, what does the young lady herself want?

You may have gone through all the above considerations and discussions, of course, and concluded that moving to the UK is the best thing for her and what she wants. In which case, please forgive my bringing it up.

Thanks 7by7

I think we have answers for the points. Actually my Wife was looking after her Daughter until the age of 8 and after the divorce she didn't have direct responsibility until her Daughter was 12 years old. So in fact we are talking about 4 years where we have explained already that her Great Aunt and Uncle cared for her. At the age of 12 My Wife and the Aunt/Uncle decided as they could no longer look after her that she would stay in a boarding school in Bangkok. At this point my Wife was responsible for her and we have letters to prove it. In the application we did not include these letters but did state that my Wife and daughter met in school holidays and chatted on the phone. The ECO's conclusion that My Wife has had little involvement with her Daughter doesn't stack up as we are only talking about 4 years out of the 15 (which have been explained sufficiently). It does seem that they just simply didn't believe us but they have not explained this fully to us.

I appreciate your personal comments and experience but we do feel that it is best for everyone (including stepdaughter) if we stay together. This needs to be in the UK - hence the frustration.

We visited the Embassy today with the extra 'evidence' but were not able to speak with anyone at all.

We wait in hope.............as usual

Thanks again 7by7 for your concern and advice.

Any more ideas.....you know where we are.........

[Bananaman]

Well folks, Bananawoman just picked up her passport from the courier's office in Chiang Mai and.................................she got the visa! WAHEY!!!!!!!!!

That means we waited only 8 weeks out of the expected 12!

The last 24 hours while we waited for the passport to make its way north was sheer hel_l with an exceedingly sleepless night involved for both of us.

We are two very happy bunnies today.

Good luck to everyone still waiting.

Best regards

Bananaman

[tjthai]

8 weeks..........you jammy dodger

CONGRATULATIONS

We wish you both the very best for the future.

[Bananaman]

8 weeks..........you jammy dodger

CONGRATULATIONS

We wish you both the very best for the future.

Cheers TJTHAI and best of luck with your ongoing issue.

[tjthai]

FEB'S APPLICATIONS

Rob01792 02/2 granted 30/3 - (8 weeks) MONDAY

Chris41 10/2 granted 16/3 - (4 weeks 6 days) MONDAY

Kooyoonii 10/2 granted 04/5 - (11 weeks 6 days) MONDAY

Pikwik 11/2 granted 27/4 - (10 weeks 5 days) MONDAY

Xiengmieng 17/2 granted 24/3 - (5 weeks) TUESDAY

Lindty 18/2 granted 24/4 - (8 weeks 6 days) FRIDAY

Tahaan 18/2 granted 13/5 - (12 weeks) WEDNESDAY

Eddiebabyyeah 20/2 granted 01/4 - (5 weeks 5 days) WEDNESDAY

MARCH'S APPLICATIONS

Tlusername 04/3 granted 15/5 - (10weeks 2 days) FRIDAY

Tricknicky 09/3 granted 23/4 - (6 weeks 3 days) (Special Case) THURSDAY

AnyaDharu 09/3 granted 19/5 - (10weeks 1 day) TUESDAY

Tango7 10/3 granted 12/5 - (9weeks) TUESDAY

Johnson83 11/3 granted 22/5 - (10 weeks 2 days) FRIDAY

Chanthas 12/3 granted 25/5 - (10 weeks 4 days) MONDAY

Gypsymoth 13/3 granted 25/5 - (10 weeks 3 days) MONDAY

chrisspuresbkk1 13/3

Friend Boo 16/3 granted 18/6 - (13 weeks 3 days) THURSDAY

Dave W 16/3 granted 17/6 - (13 weeks 2 days) WEDNESDAY

Stonewall 62 17/3 granted 19/6 - (13 weeks 3 days) FRIDAY

Kennkate 17/3 granted16/6 - (13 weeks) TUESDAY

Chewy 18/3 Granted 07/08 20 weeks and 3 days

PeterHThai 19/3 granted 19/6 - (13 weeks 1 day) FRIDAY

Pingit 19/3 Refused 19/6 - ( 13 weeks 1 day ) FRIDAY Decision overturned 15/07 WEDNESDAY

TheFiend 20/3 granted 18/6 - (12 weeks 6 days) THURSDAY

Jaja 20/3 granted 9/7 - (15 weeks 6 days) THURSDAY

Pudsey 23/3 granted 10/7 - (15 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

Sumrit 24/3 Granted 26/6 - (13 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

Merangue 25/3 Granted 03/6 - (10 weeks) WEDNESDAY

Domm44 27/3 Granted 22/7- (16 Weeks 5 days)WEDNESDAY

Fluidfusion 27/3 Refused 03/06 - (13 weeks) WEDNESDAY

TickTock 30/3 Granted 19/6 - (11 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

George & Dragon 30/03 Refused 26/06 (12 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

Delboy 30/3 Granted 22/06 - (12 weeks 1 day) MONDAY

APRIL'S APPLICATIONS

Borodave 01/4 Granted 24/6 - (12 weeks) WEDNESDAY

JasonThai 02/4 Granted 25/6 - (12 weeks) THURSDAY

Mikeyp 03/4 granted 26/6 - (12 weeks) FRIDAY

Mrburb 03/4 Granted 26/6 - (12 weeks) FRIDAY

Feasantplukka 03/4 Granted 14/7 - (14 week 4 days) TUESDAY

Muaylaosfalang 03/4 Granted 26/6 (12 weeks) FRIDAY

Lerningcurve 07/04 Granted 30/6 (12 weeks) TUESDAY

Bigsy94 07/04 Granted 30/6 (12 weeks) TUESDAY

Kate46 (son) 08/4 Granted 22/7 - (15 WEEKS) WEDNESDAY

AndyJoy 08/4 Granted 21/7 (14 weeks 6 days) TUESDAY

Marcjaiyenyen 08/4 (Applied in Jamaica) granted 7/7 (12 weeks 6 days) TUESDAY

ExoticMatter 09/4 Granted 23/7 (15 weeks) THURSDAY

Dolphy 21/4 Granted 29/7 (14 weeks 1 day) WEDNESDAY

Scotland 22/4 Granted 24/07 (13weeks) FRIDAY

Jes5133 24/4 Granted 24/7 (13 Weeks) FRIDAY

Lee888 28/4 Granted 22/7 (12 week 1 Day) WEDNESDAY

CinnamonRoll 29/4 Granted 22/7 - (12 week) WEDNESDAY

Gena 29/4 Granted 22/7 (12 week) WEDNESDAY

Rolypies 29/4 Granted 10/6 - (6 weeks) (Special Case) WEDNESDAY

Castor83 29/4 Refused

TDM 30/4 Granted 24/7 (12 Weeks 1 Day) FRIDAY

MAY'S APPLICATIONS

Nelson111 04/5 Granted 23/7 (11 Weeks 4 Days) THURSDAY

Marky1600 05/05 Ganted 28/7 (12 Weeks) TUESDAY

Wayne Mcclymont 06/5 Granted 04/08 12 Weeks 6 Days TUESDAY

Alanr 07/5 Granted 28/7 (11 Weeks 5 Days) TUESDAY

Suprich 07/5 Granted 28/7 (11 Weeks 5 Days) TUESDAY

Buzby 11/5 Granted 27/7 (11 weeks) MONDAY

dean999 12/5 Interview 27/7 10 Weeks 6 Days/rejected 6/8 (12 weeks 2 days) THURSDAY

Dont panic 13/05 Granted 29/07 (11 weeks) WEDNESDAY

Zim 13/5

True blue 14/5 Granted 27/7 (10 weeks 5 days) MONDAY

Spot 15/5 Granted 31/07 (11 weeks) FRIDAY

uaelaelil 20/5 Refused 14/8 12 Weeks 2 Days FRIDAY

Johnokk 25/5 Granted 04/8 (10 weeks 1 day) TUESDAY

moodysufc 26/5 Refused 19/8 12 Weeks 1 Day WEDNESDAY

Ade2007 29/5 Granted 04/8 9 Weeks 4 Days TUESDAY

leefreight 29/05

JUNE'S APPLICATIONS

Ajsp9 02/06 Granted 10/8 (9 weeks 6 days) MONDAY

Globaleyes 08/06 Granted 17/8 10 Weeks MONDAY

Bukseeda 09/06 Granted 02/9 12 Weeks 1 Day WEDNESDAY

Hawkinsschris 19/06 Granted 09-09-09 11 week 4 days TUESDAY

Thongkorn 23/06 GRANTED

Dowman73 30/6 Granted 10/09/09 10 weeks 2 day Thursday

JULY'S APPLICATIONS

tjthai 2/07 VISA GRANTED FOR WIFE DAUGHTER REFUSED (APPEALING!) - 11 Weeks 2 days FRIDAY

simiUK 6/07 VISA GRANTED 12 Weeks 6 days MONDAY

bobrussell 13/07

Jaggg88 14/07

Bananaman 30/07 GRANTED 8 Weeks

AUGUST'S APPLICATIONS

learningcurve 13/08

idmilla 14/08

Enquirer 19/08

Edited September 29, 2009 by tjthai

[bobrussell]

Not sure how to edit above. Wife and daughter were issued with their visas on 23rd September - 10 weeks 2 days by my limited maths.

My sister in law was granted her visa 10 days before and it took nearly 12 weeks. Pure coincidence that my brother has been moved by his company from Australia to the UK at the same time as my family! No coincidence that we are both married to Thais as they introduced us (quite a few years ago!)

Anyone saying that settlement visas are not being held in a pile waiting for weeks and are processed with the same priority as other types of visa just need to study the monthly figures for application waiting times.

A bit odd to see Augusts figures put on the website, briefly replaced by July's then a new set of (more favorable!) figures for August.

[sumrit]

FEB'S APPLICATIONS

Rob01792 02/2 granted 30/3 - (8 weeks) MONDAY

Chris41 10/2 granted 16/3 - (4 weeks 6 days) MONDAY

Kooyoonii 10/2 granted 04/5 - (11 weeks 6 days) MONDAY

Pikwik 11/2 granted 27/4 - (10 weeks 5 days) MONDAY

Xiengmieng 17/2 granted 24/3 - (5 weeks) TUESDAY

Lindty 18/2 granted 24/4 - (8 weeks 6 days) FRIDAY

Tahaan 18/2 granted 13/5 - (12 weeks) WEDNESDAY

Eddiebabyyeah 20/2 granted 01/4 - (5 weeks 5 days) WEDNESDAY

MARCH'S APPLICATIONS

Tlusername 04/3 granted 15/5 - (10weeks 2 days) FRIDAY

Tricknicky 09/3 granted 23/4 - (6 weeks 3 days) (Special Case) THURSDAY

AnyaDharu 09/3 granted 19/5 - (10weeks 1 day) TUESDAY

Tango7 10/3 granted 12/5 - (9weeks) TUESDAY

Johnson83 11/3 granted 22/5 - (10 weeks 2 days) FRIDAY

Chanthas 12/3 granted 25/5 - (10 weeks 4 days) MONDAY

Gypsymoth 13/3 granted 25/5 - (10 weeks 3 days) MONDAY

chrisspuresbkk1 13/3

Friend Boo 16/3 granted 18/6 - (13 weeks 3 days) THURSDAY

Dave W 16/3 granted 17/6 - (13 weeks 2 days) WEDNESDAY

Stonewall 62 17/3 granted 19/6 - (13 weeks 3 days) FRIDAY

Kennkate 17/3 granted16/6 - (13 weeks) TUESDAY

Chewy 18/3 Granted 07/08 20 weeks and 3 days

PeterHThai 19/3 granted 19/6 - (13 weeks 1 day) FRIDAY

Pingit 19/3 Refused 19/6 - ( 13 weeks 1 day ) FRIDAY Decision overturned 15/07 WEDNESDAY

TheFiend 20/3 granted 18/6 - (12 weeks 6 days) THURSDAY

Jaja 20/3 granted 9/7 - (15 weeks 6 days) THURSDAY

Pudsey 23/3 granted 10/7 - (15 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

Sumrit 24/3 Granted 26/6 - (13 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

Merangue 25/3 Granted 03/6 - (10 weeks) WEDNESDAY

Domm44 27/3 Granted 22/7- (16 Weeks 5 days)WEDNESDAY

Fluidfusion 27/3 Refused 03/06 - (13 weeks) WEDNESDAY

TickTock 30/3 Granted 19/6 - (11 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

George & Dragon 30/03 Refused 26/06 (12 weeks 4 days) FRIDAY

Delboy 30/3 Granted 22/06 - (12 weeks 1 day) MONDAY

APRIL'S APPLICATIONS

Borodave 01/4 Granted 24/6 - (12 weeks) WEDNESDAY

JasonThai 02/4 Granted 25/6 - (12 weeks) THURSDAY

Mikeyp 03/4 granted 26/6 - (12 weeks) FRIDAY

Mrburb 03/4 Granted 26/6 - (12 weeks) FRIDAY

Feasantplukka 03/4 Granted 14/7 - (14 week 4 days) TUESDAY

Muaylaosfalang 03/4 Granted 26/6 (12 weeks) FRIDAY

Lerningcurve 07/04 Granted 30/6 (12 weeks) TUESDAY

Bigsy94 07/04 Granted 30/6 (12 weeks) TUESDAY

Kate46 (son) 08/4 Granted 22/7 - (15 WEEKS) WEDNESDAY

AndyJoy 08/4 Granted 21/7 (14 weeks 6 days) TUESDAY

Marcjaiyenyen 08/4 (Applied in Jamaica) granted 7/7 (12 weeks 6 days) TUESDAY

ExoticMatter 09/4 Granted 23/7 (15 weeks) THURSDAY

Dolphy 21/4 Granted 29/7 (14 weeks 1 day) WEDNESDAY

Scotland 22/4 Granted 24/07 (13weeks) FRIDAY

Jes5133 24/4 Granted 24/7 (13 Weeks) FRIDAY

Lee888 28/4 Granted 22/7 (12 week 1 Day) WEDNESDAY

CinnamonRoll 29/4 Granted 22/7 - (12 week) WEDNESDAY

Gena 29/4 Granted 22/7 (12 week) WEDNESDAY

Rolypies 29/4 Granted 10/6 - (6 weeks) (Special Case) WEDNESDAY

Castor83 29/4 Refused

TDM 30/4 Granted 24/7 (12 Weeks 1 Day) FRIDAY

MAY'S APPLICATIONS

Nelson111 04/5 Granted 23/7 (11 Weeks 4 Days) THURSDAY

Marky1600 05/05 Ganted 28/7 (12 Weeks) TUESDAY

Wayne Mcclymont 06/5 Granted 04/08 12 Weeks 6 Days TUESDAY

Alanr 07/5 Granted 28/7 (11 Weeks 5 Days) TUESDAY

Suprich 07/5 Granted 28/7 (11 Weeks 5 Days) TUESDAY

Buzby 11/5 Granted 27/7 (11 weeks) MONDAY

dean999 12/5 Interview 27/7 10 Weeks 6 Days/rejected 6/8 (12 weeks 2 days) THURSDAY

Dont panic 13/05 Granted 29/07 (11 weeks) WEDNESDAY

Zim 13/5

True blue 14/5 Granted 27/7 (10 weeks 5 days) MONDAY

Spot 15/5 Granted 31/07 (11 weeks) FRIDAY

uaelaelil 20/5 Refused 14/8 12 Weeks 2 Days FRIDAY

Johnokk 25/5 Granted 04/8 (10 weeks 1 day) TUESDAY

moodysufc 26/5 Refused 19/8 12 Weeks 1 Day WEDNESDAY

Ade2007 29/5 Granted 04/8 9 Weeks 4 Days TUESDAY

leefreight 29/05

JUNE'S APPLICATIONS

Ajsp9 02/06 Granted 10/8 (9 weeks 6 days) MONDAY

Globaleyes 08/06 Granted 17/8 10 Weeks MONDAY

Bukseeda 09/06 Granted 02/9 12 Weeks 1 Day WEDNESDAY

Hawkinsschris 19/06 Granted 09-09-09 11 week 4 days TUESDAY

Thongkorn 23/06 GRANTED

Dowman73 30/6 Granted 10/09/09 10 weeks 2 day Thursday

JULY'S APPLICATIONS

tjthai 2/07 VISA GRANTED FOR WIFE DAUGHTER REFUSED (APPEALING!) - 11 Weeks 2 days FRIDAY

simiUK 6/07 VISA GRANTED 12 Weeks 6 days MONDAY

bobrussell 13/07 VISA GRANTED 23/9 10 weeks 2 days

Jaggg88 14/07

Bananaman 30/07 GRANTED 8 Weeks

AUGUST'S APPLICATIONS

learningcurve 13/08

idmilla 14/08

Enquirer 19/08

[HowardJohnson]

Well, my wife and I (got to get used to saying that!) applied for a settlement visa yesterday.

No issues apart from getting hassled at every choke point by the guys from the agencies.

We arrived earlier than our appointment, the security at the door was very polite and allowed her through a bit early.

The person checking the documents was apparently pretty rude and aggressive (I guess you get one at every office) but the guy who took the application was very pleasant.

She was in and out in 10 minutes.

So, I guess we wait now for up to 12 weeks, hoping they might get it done earlier as I'd like to get home before Xmas.

Just as a thought. I assume VFS has KPI's that they must achieve? Is a 12 week turnarournd likely to be within agreed timelines?

Do you think it's possible that if they are under pressure to get back to a more reasonable turnaround time, they might be letting more applications go straight to approval rather than interview?

Just a thought...

[simiUK]

Well, my wife and I (got to get used to saying that!) applied for a settlement visa yesterday.

No issues apart from getting hassled at every choke point by the guys from the agencies.

We arrived earlier than our appointment, the security at the door was very polite and allowed her through a bit early.

The person checking the documents was apparently pretty rude and aggressive (I guess you get one at every office) but the guy who took the application was very pleasant.

She was in and out in 10 minutes.

So, I guess we wait now for up to 12 weeks, hoping they might get it done earlier as I'd like to get home before Xmas.

Just as a thought. I assume VFS has KPI's that they must achieve? Is a 12 week turnarournd likely to be within agreed timelines?

Do you think it's possible that if they are under pressure to get back to a more reasonable turnaround time, they might be letting more applications go straight to approval rather than interview?

Just a thought...

good luck buddy wouldn't order an xtra large turkey just yet your applicaton will go on the pile in sequential order with all the rest so it depends on current volumes how long it takes for yours to surface to the top. you will only be called for interview if the embassy requires any clarification they are guided to make decisions based on all the paper info' in the app. on the upside bananaman's just got his in 8 weeks and there seems to be less people joining this threads waiting list for aug/sept... doesnt mean its necessarily representative of lesser workloads but might make you feel a bit more optimistic!

[PaulCornwall]

To save time you may want to contact the UKBA and withdraw the application. You wont get the fee back, I'm afraid, but your passports will be returned so you can then go to Thailand and start the process of getting her and her children here. You know this application is going to be refused, so why wait until it is?

Well, the decision's been made as expected, and i'm fairly sure it was my cockup as you said, sh*t happens.

We talked about it, and she wanted to hang on here until that decision was made official, so she's off back to thailand shortly, where we'll try again, this time with her 3yr old daughter on the application, and with any luck, back here in time for our 1st wedding anniversary next february.

We wont or rather can't realistically appeal the decision.

So now i'm gathering all the bits i can together for the settlement visa, some of which she needs to do in thailand as i understand it, TB check and a letter from the local Amphur regarding her being sole custodian of her daughter.

My main concerns would be accomodation space and finances, but within their own rules on the VFS site we're okay for space. I'm a carer for a disabled child in receipt of public funds, but seeing as we've been quite happily managing with her living here on holiday/marriage visit visa's since june last year, i dont think they can realistically say its not enough. I hope thats the case anyway, plus she'd be getting a job (not that it would apply to any visa decision i guess) but she's already had to turn down several since staying here due to visa restriction.

Anyway, any further advice or pointers to idiots guides (i'm total poo with paperwork ) from people would be greatly appreciated

cheers all and goodluck.

Edited September 30, 2009 by PaulCornwall

[Jaggg88]

Well folks, Bananawoman just picked up her passport from the courier's office in Chiang Mai and.................................she got the visa! WAHEY!!!!!!!!!

That means we waited only 8 weeks out of the expected 12!

The last 24 hours while we waited for the passport to make its way north was sheer hel_l with an exceedingly sleepless night involved for both of us.

We are two very happy bunnies today.

Good luck to everyone still waiting.

Best regards

Bananaman

Wow! congrats Bananaman and Bananawoman - I think that is the fastest this year but so much for the applications be processed sequentially as you applied more than 2 weeks after us and we haven't heard a thing. I do hope our application hasn't fallen down the back of someone's desk