"red" And "yellow" Foreigners

[thaihome]

Hardly the "most vocal PAD critic", but supporting a bunch of idiots who ruined tourism in Thailand last year by taking over the airport at the beginning of high season is not exactly good for Thailand.

Again, you are doing nothing more then saying if it was bad for you then must have been bad for Thailand. Thailand’s tourism industry was going to get hit very bad anyway by the economic slowdown, the few days the airport was closed was blip on what was going to be very sharp decline. The statement that the middle class made in supporting the PAD action far outweighed any negative impact to the tourism industry in what is good for Thailand.

Sorry, but you need to get past your narcissistic view of Thailand

TH

[rixalex]

Oh, the one that has no place to choose "none of the above" - which is what most expats would choose

Ulysses, what possibly gives you the authority to speak on behalf of most expats?

I know i can't; hence the poll, which was intentionally interested in the political orientation of the expats who do have an opinion one way or the other, red or yellow.

[justanothercybertosser]

The only thing that this poll indicates is that there are some very confused people that have taken part in this poll. So far 10 posters have stated that they are "left of center" and support yellow.

I cannot explain this other than that these people must also believe that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot have advanced socialism and its ideals. How else can these people support a group that advocates a system that takes the vote away from ordinary people and that displayed such extreme nationalism that they have nearly caused a war with Cambodia over a small pile of rocks that, according to the International Court judgment of '62, does not even belong to Thailand.

[Ulysses G.]

Oh, the one that has no place to choose "none of the above" - which is what most expats would choose

hence the poll, which was intentionally interested in the political orientation of the expats who do have an opinion one way or the other, red or yellow.

You purposely did not have a "none of the above" option. Yeah, I bet!

[Plus]

Yes, there are some very confused people who think that yellows are united in hating people, setting up gas chambers for Cambodians and eating red babies alive.

It was a movement against Thaksin, not much more.

[Ulysses G.]

They also admitted that they want to get rid of direct democracy in Thailand. Isn't that kind of

important?

[justanothercybertosser]

They also admitted that they want to get rid of direct democracy in Thailand. Isn't that kind of

important?

Not for plus. Read his posts, and you know that he at least is not that confused - he is very right of the center, and a typical PAD supporter.

[rixalex]

Oh, the one that has no place to choose "none of the above" - which is what most expats would choose

hence the poll, which was intentionally interested in the political orientation of the expats who do have an opinion one way or the other, red or yellow.

You purposely did not have a "none of the above" option. Yeah, I bet!

Very recently Ulysses, you accused me of not having read one of your posts carefully enough, when in actualy fact you went back and edited it whilst i was composing my response. May i suggest you take some of your own advice and reread my first post of this thread which very clearly states at the bottom:

N.B. The poll intentionally does not include those who support neither camp

Is that somehow not clear for you?

[Ulysses G.]

No, I''ll admit that I did not read the fine print under your post, but it seems strange to have left something so important out.

[h90]

Its very difficult to vote, because what is right or left wing. Because for Europeans its a complete different concept than for Americans. They call Obama left wing, Europeans regard him as right wing.

Also the concept of liberalism is totally different in Europe and the US. The Americans will call European liberal parties even communist. The same go's for Conservative.

Europeans and Americans have a complete different concept about how to organize a society. That's make it very difficult or almost impossible to have an political discussion because we don't mean the same thing when we write welfare state, left or right wing or social security.

I can be wrong, but I have the feeling that Europeans are more tolerant towards different opinions without throwing words like Commie, Nazi or Fascist. If I'm wrong just tell me.

Back to the poll.

I'm in favour of the democratic party in a Thai political concept, but if I compare them with any European political concept I disagree harshly with many thing. Implementing stringent lese-Majesty laws is only one of them.

That's why I didn't cast my vote for this poll. Because in my political view, right and left wing are concepts of the past, modern society is far more complicated than that. Even, in so called left and right wing parties there are left and right wingers.

And so am I, in some issues I'm far right and in others far left.

I never heard a single european calling Obama right wing....

[Jingthing]

I never heard a single european calling Obama right wing...

I certainly have. Mainly because his pro Israel policy isn't much different than any other US president including Bush and Europeans in general are much more critical of Israel than Americans. It is just one issue but to many Europeans it is their top issue with the USA. Actually, Obama's policy on Iraq isn't that different than Bush now that we are there, and he is more hawkish than Bush on Afghanistan. Its understandable that non-Americans would focus on foreign policy rather than US domestic policy.

[rixalex]

No, I''ll admit that I did not read the fine print under your post, but it seems strange to have left something so important out.

It wasn't fine print. Have a modicum of courtesy to accept when you have made a mistake for goodness sake.

And.... if you understood the entire concept of the poll you would understand that far from it being important, the number of foreigners who have no political preference in Thailand is actually completely irrelevant to the matter that i was interested in - and that is (can't believe i'm having to repeat this ), of those foreigners that do support one of the two sides in Thailand, is there any pattern as to their political thinking and belief.

And that is the last time i explain it.

If anyone else is unable to undertstand what this poll is about, might i suggest that rather than post comments here, you close this thread forthwith and go and devise your own poll that serves your own interests.

[henryalleman]

It is common to introduce laws that limit one's freedom during times of war. The Patriot Act does not make any American happy, but there are times that one has to do what is best to keep our enemies at bay.

There have been no terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11. That says that the temporary sacrifice is probably worth it.

Strange that is exactly the same terminology Hitler used. Nazi's in germany also arrest people without any trial or legal representation and send them to camps where they torture them. The US did exactly the same thing, and you seems to aprove this.

Are you an hidden Nazi?

[henryalleman]

Its very difficult to vote, because what is right or left wing. Because for Europeans its a complete different concept than for Americans. They call Obama left wing, Europeans regard him as right wing.

Also the concept of liberalism is totally different in Europe and the US. The Americans will call European liberal parties even communist. The same go's for Conservative.

Europeans and Americans have a complete different concept about how to organize a society. That's make it very difficult or almost impossible to have an political discussion because we don't mean the same thing when we write welfare state, left or right wing or social security.

I can be wrong, but I have the feeling that Europeans are more tolerant towards different opinions without throwing words like Commie, Nazi or Fascist. If I'm wrong just tell me.

Back to the poll.

I'm in favour of the democratic party in a Thai political concept, but if I compare them with any European political concept I disagree harshly with many thing. Implementing stringent lese-Majesty laws is only one of them.

That's why I didn't cast my vote for this poll. Because in my political view, right and left wing are concepts of the past, modern society is far more complicated than that. Even, in so called left and right wing parties there are left and right wingers.

And so am I, in some issues I'm far right and in others far left.

I never heard a single european calling Obama right wing....

I heard him called like this regularly in political talk shows by politicians of right-wing parties. They state that his social program is even unacceptable for them.

[henryalleman]

Some people proclaim that there is no left or right wing political ideology in Thailand. They are correct, but they forget that there is an political ideology in Thailand. Namely "Patriotic Royalism" who is abused by all.

[SoiGirlHunter]

Winston Churchill said

"If you were not a liberal under age 30 - you had no heart"

"If you were not a conservative over age 30 - you had no brain"

[justanothercybertosser]

Some people proclaim that there is no left or right wing political ideology in Thailand. They are correct, but they forget that there is an political ideology in Thailand. Namely "Patriotic Royalism" who is abused by all.

There very well is left-wing ideology in Thailand. There is just no left wing political party officially registered anymore, after the last left wing parties were forced closed in the 70's.

All established parties are some shade of right wing. In the red shirt movement is a strong undercurrent of a beginning renewal of the left. We don't know yet if these sentiments will be able to establish themselves on a larger scale.

PAD is far right, and so are the former communists who have joined PAD. There is nothing resembling any leftist ideas in the PAD, unless you count a particular Asian style of leftism, which is so loaded with nationalism, that it resembles more the National Socialism of some of the founding members of the NSDAP than anything we could label left in a European sense.

[oevna]

I didn't see an "orange" foreigner option, so I didn't vote!

[Ulysses G.]

It is common to introduce laws that limit one's freedom during times of war. The Patriot Act does not make any American happy, but there are times that one has to do what is best to keep our enemies at bay.

There have been no terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11. That says that the temporary sacrifice is probably worth it.

Strange that is exactly the same terminology Hitler used. Nazi's in germany also arrest people without any trial or legal representation and send them to camps where they torture them. The US did exactly the same thing, and you seems to aprove this.

Are you an hidden Nazi?

Why don't you study a little history. The Nazi's arrested millions of innocent people for their religion and sexual orientation and tortured and killed them. The U.S. arrested a few combatants and suspected mass killers to stop them from killing more innocent people. That may be screwed up, but are you really going to compare the two things?

On top of that, the Nazis attempted genocide and beat, starved and killed millions of people who were pacifists and did not even fight back. The only thing the U.S. is trying to get rid of is a few murderers.

On top of that, I'm not the one who has openly praised Hitler. You are.

[Plus]

In the red shirt movement is a strong undercurrent of a beginning renewal of the left.

More like leftist opportunists jumping on a chance to speak to larger crowds, like parasites.

They must be disgusted with red leadership, but it's either chance of fame or principles. God save this country if these hypocrites will ever lay their hands on power. Their comrades from the 70s did once, see where it got us, and them, as they are branded right wing, too now.

[Plus]

They also admitted that they want to get rid of direct democracy in Thailand. Isn't that kind of

important?

1. They did no such thing

2. The "new politics" proposal didn't get much traction anyway, supporters were not very interested

[Ulysses G.]

They also admitted that they want to get rid of direct democracy in Thailand. Isn't that kind of

important?

1. They did no such thing

Sorry, I guess that the Bangkok Post and alll the media were wrong.

[Plus]

I don't think you've read it in Bangkok Post.

It's the red brigade on TV (and some in mainstream media) who, most likley, deliberately, distorted the original idea to make a better target for their attacks.

While on this subject, why don't you visit

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Puea-Thai-Pa...93#entry2617893

There the red style "direct" democracy shines at its best - they propose that these so-called people's rerpesentatives must NOT be allowed to vote freely, only according to party resolutions. Why would anyone blame PAD for trying to reform this system?

>>>

PAD has been active since 2005, it was always an anti-Thaksin movement, why would anyone judge it by a proposition made in 2008 that didn't even get much interest from their own supporters? I know it's better for mud slinging, but seriously?

[JacknDanny]

Pro Maggie.

Anti- Thaksin.

Very strong views on both people.

Guess that makes me yellow right of centre

[henryalleman]

Why don't you study a little history. The Nazi's arrested millions of innocent people for their religion and sexual orientation and tortured and killed them. The U.S. arrested a few combatants and suspected mass killers to stop them from killing more innocent people. That may be screwed up, but are you really going to compare the two things?

On top of that, the Nazis attempted genocide and beat, starved and killed millions of people who were pacifists and did not even fight back. The only thing the U.S. is trying to get rid of is a few murderers.

On top of that, I'm not the one who has openly praised Hitler. You are.

You kindly forgot the genocide of a few millions Indians, and the lucky(?) ones who survived those massacres they locked them up in Reservations where they died of starvation.

You kindly forgot that in Vietnam still then thousand of handicapped baby's are born every year due to the spraying of Agent Orange.

You kindly forgot throwing an nuclear bomb on innocent and defenceless citizens in 2 undefended towns without any military importance.

Because I know you don't like to be reminded of the KKK, slavery and segregation laws, I will not mention it.

[henryalleman]

Some people proclaim that there is no left or right wing political ideology in Thailand. They are correct, but they forget that there is an political ideology in Thailand. Namely "Patriotic Royalism" who is abused by all.

There very well is left-wing ideology in Thailand. There is just no left wing political party officially registered anymore, after the last left wing parties were forced closed in the 70's.

All established parties are some shade of right wing. In the red shirt movement is a strong undercurrent of a beginning renewal of the left. We don't know yet if these sentiments will be able to establish themselves on a larger scale.

PAD is far right, and so are the former communists who have joined PAD. There is nothing resembling any leftist ideas in the PAD, unless you count a particular Asian style of leftism, which is so loaded with nationalism, that it resembles more the National Socialism of some of the founding members of the NSDAP than anything we could label left in a European sense.

I think our mistake is to look to the political landscape in Thailand by Western eyes. We try to label it to make it understandable for us. But how hard I try, I can't find any political ideology who I even can compare remotely with any western one. Sometimes I wonder if there is even some ideology except Ultra-Nationalism. You have some point that is has some NSDAP elements in Thai politics, but they have also some typical Nomenclature elements of the old USSR. Because face it, Thai politics is in fact very incestuous.

I think the best way to describe the Thai political system as a kind of benevolent military dictatorship. And Thaksin as a kind of Poetin. Just look to the similarities of character and the roots of their career.

[henryalleman]

At least we know where he stands for

[Ulysses G.]

Why don't you study a little history. The Nazi's arrested millions of innocent people for their religion and sexual orientation and tortured and killed them. The U.S. arrested a few combatants and suspected mass killers to stop them from killing more innocent people. That may be screwed up, but are you really going to compare the two things?

On top of that, the Nazis attempted genocide and beat, starved and killed millions of people who were pacifists and did not even fight back. The only thing the U.S. is trying to get rid of is a few murderers.

On top of that, I'm not the one who has openly praised Hitler. You are.

You kindly forgot the genocide of a few millions Indians... blah, blah blah

Grow up. Almost any country on earth has committed great atrocities if you go back far enough in history. England used to strap live human beings to exploding cannons and gave the American Indians diseased blankets- genocide on purpose - Australia and the Aborigines - and even the Dutch were ruthless, but no MODERN nation has come close to the evil of Nazi Germany and trying to compare killing mostly combatants in Vietnam or Iraq to what the Germans did to MILLIONS of innocent Jews, Gypsies and Gays in World War II and then going on about all of the "good" that Hitler did, shows just how out of it some people are.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Can I just voice my appreciation for an EXCELLENT poll, that indeed managed to clearly show that Western left-right does not translate into a Thai yellow-red in any way. From this forum however it's also obvious that many people believe it does!! And on both sides of the Thai/Western spectrum too. Posts like "I'm liberal, so obviously I support PAD" are common, but this poll shows that this isn't obvious at all. Personally I'm VERY liberal ( borderline socialist ) and have nothing but contempt for the way PAD and the Democrats and their puppet masters have cheated their way to power, using any and all means OTHER THAN actually winning an election.

However, note that this does not translate into unconditional support for the Reds, as there's plenty nutcases on that side, too.

Overall I don't agree with people who say everyone non-PAD/Dem should just roll over and die for the sake of peace and harmony. I think it's actually a good thing that common people are becoming more involved in politics. It's another step in a maturing democracy, and a step towards people voting based on issues rather than because they got a couple hundred baht and a bottle of Chang. Protests are a common sign of a healthy democracy. (not saying that Thailand is there yet, but it IS encouraging, and in time tourists and investors to Thailand will recognize it for what it is: very much the same as politics in their own country where demonstrations and strikes are a regular occurrence, too.

[TAWP]

Why don't you study a little history. The Nazi's arrested millions of innocent people for their religion and sexual orientation and tortured and killed them. The U.S. arrested a few combatants and suspected mass killers to stop them from killing more innocent people. That may be screwed up, but are you really going to compare the two things?

On top of that, the Nazis attempted genocide and beat, starved and killed millions of people who were pacifists and did not even fight back. The only thing the U.S. is trying to get rid of is a few murderers.

On top of that, I'm not the one who has openly praised Hitler. You are.

You kindly forgot the genocide of a few millions Indians... blah, blah blah

Grow up. Almost any country on earth has committed great atrocities if you go back far enough in history. England used to strap live human beings to exploding cannons and gave the American Indians diseased blankets- genocide on purpose - Australia and the Aborigines - and even the Dutch were ruthless, but no MODERN nation has come close to the evil of Nazi Germany and trying to compare killing mostly combatants in Vietnam or Iraq to what the Germans did to MILLIONS of innocent Jews, Gypsies and Gays in World War II and then going on about all of the "good" that Hitler did, shows just how out of it some people are.

Wait, who died and made you the supreme judge is that constitutes a crime committed under a modern nation and not?

You choose a year? Wanna tell us which year? Different per country? Have the list?