One-two-go Blacklisted By The Ec

[GungaDin]

DaleBlue,

You haven't a clue!

[CFIT]

Lostbro

Firstly apologies I keep meaning to try and sort out a skype con but have had a nightmare month. A question I hope anyway is of general interest. With regards to insurance, how are the Thais getting away with such a low pay out? I know you will have researched this but surely insurance levels are governed by IATA or some ruling somewhere within ICAO. If a Thai dies on a US flight his family can collect say $1M, why if a US citizen dies on a Thai flight is it $50k? Flying these machines, one doesn't get involved in the financial management side of airlines. What have you found out in this respect, especially as the insurance agent is not a Thai company?

Allow me to answer from a post in another forum ;

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/375927-...t-released.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The insurance company - Global Aviation Underwriters - knows all about Orient Thai/One-Two-Go. They know of the fraudulent checkrides; they know of the excessive flight hours; they know there are unqualified pilots; they know of the fraudulent paperwork given to the NTSB etc. They know the airline had no safety program. Presumably, Global Aero know before the crash. After the crash, I spoke with their chief legal counsel Steven Walsh and told him of the evidence. I have internet records of him reviewing it online. They continue to insure Orient Thai/One-Two-Go is highly profitable, if amoral and even immoral.

Here are the ballpark numbers:

Orient Thai/One-Two-Go have been in business for 12 years. Let's guesstimate their insurance is $5M/year. That's $60M profit for providing the insurance, which is really paperwork and a promise to pay any legal claims in the case of an incident. OG269 happens. Highly forseeable. What's the insurance company out? About $20M by my reasonably informed estimate. ($1M to Udom for the hull, $8M-$10M for the dead and injured Americans - to help keep the case out of US court, $8M-$10M for everyone else.) Net Profit for the insurance company: $40M.

Global Areo is a Lloyds of London insurer. I have had many calls with Lloyds and with the various British regulators, asking the following question: If the insurance company has proof that the airline runs illegally and dangerously, can they legally provide insurance? Apparently, no one has ever asked this question before. It seems that so long as the airline is legally licensed by a country - which Orient Thai/ One-Two-Go are - then the insurance company has no obligation other than to pay claims.

So people who board an aircraft assuming that they meet minimum aviation standards or couldn't be insured are mistaken. Big take away: You must consider the COUNTRY overseeing the airline as well as the airline itself to determine it's likely safety.

>>>>>>>>>>

Edited June 4, 2009 by CFIT

[Tigs]

CFIT

Thanks.

DaleBlue

The simple fact is, that flying is THE safest form of transport in the world. Last year there were over 16 Million air movements and somewhere in the region of 2500 people died world-wide as a result of aircrashes. That loss of people is a tragedy beyond words for the families concerned, but the fact is that the Aviation industry strive to improve all aspects of safety, that is until we encounter those companies that ignore MANDATORY regulations! As an example, I am involved in the delivery of a mandatory training product to Pilots, Cabin Crew and Maintenance Technicians. It involves the processes involved in reducing Human Error in the aviation environment and is taken Very seriously by 'western airlines' and other forward looking Asian Airlines (In particular those that belong to global loyalty programs like the 'Star Alliance'), with staff having to complete annual training requirements. I live in Thailand and to give a broad brush statement, the airlines here do not give a <deleted>! It is seen as an expense and of no benifit to the profit hungry owners, yet the benifits are proven, not only in saving lives, but also much higher profits due to the reduction in expensive mistakes.

Culture is an issue I am afraid to say. As a crude example let me use the analogy of road safety. The UK has a population almost exactly the same as Thailand. It has strict road safety laws including the mandatory use of seatbelts and crash helmets, speed limits, zero tolerance of drunk driving, zero tolerance of driving without a licence and comprehensive examination and testing before a licence to drive is issued. The use of mobile phones whilst driving is now rare as very heavy penalties are imposed if the police see you. With that comprehensive safety policy, which is generally very well observed approximately 3500 people die every year in road accidents in the UK. In Thailand there are many of the above laws and practices in place but nobody follows them and the police do not impose them, as a result in a country with the same population as the UK, 15 500 people die every year in road accidents in Thailand. To be balanced, there are other mitigating factors, such as the high number of motor bike users, but the vast majority ride without any form of protective clothing or head gear. Now you draw whatever conclusions you wish from the comparison of rule obeyance or rule breaking. If I killed someone whilst driving in the UK, and it was found I did so whilst breaking the Road Law, I would go to jail, there is no doubt, in Thailand a 50K baht fine will be imposed (if they bother to find me). Here we have an airline owner, who at a minimum is guilty of corporate manslaughter. If this were Europe, or the US, Oz or NZ I guarantee he would be starting a lengthy jail sentence already.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Tigs

[DaleBlue]

DaleBlue,

You haven't a clue!

Thanks CFIT for posting 2 incidents involving AirAsia. Did I misunderstand your intention; I don't seems to see any dead in either of the 2 you posted.

If you want, I can post at least twice the number of incident by American/British/French/German/Singapore/Korean/Japanese airlines. And the best part is, I can show that HUNDREDS had died in EACH and EVERY of your so call safe airlines.

Statistic do not lie.

[GungaDin]

CFIT

Thanks.

DaleBlue

<snip>

Culture is an issue I am afraid to say. As a crude example let me use the analogy of road safety. The UK has a population almost exactly the same as Thailand. It has strict road safety laws including the mandatory use of seatbelts and crash helmets, speed limits, zero tolerance of drunk driving, zero tolerance of driving without a licence and comprehensive examination and testing before a licence to drive is issued. The use of mobile phones whilst driving is now rare as very heavy penalties are imposed if the police see you. With that comprehensive safety policy, which is generally very well observed approximately 3500 people die every year in road accidents in the UK. In Thailand there are many of the above laws and practices in place but nobody follows them and the police do not impose them, as a result in a country with the same population as the UK, 15 500 people die every year in road accidents in Thailand. To be balanced, there are other mitigating factors, such as the high number of motor bike users, but the vast majority ride without any form of protective clothing or head gear. Now you draw whatever conclusions you wish from the comparison of rule obeyance or rule breaking. If I killed someone whilst driving in the UK, and it was found I did so whilst breaking the Road Law, I would go to jail, there is no doubt, in Thailand a 50K baht fine will be imposed (if they bother to find me). Here we have an airline owner, who at a minimum is guilty of corporate manslaughter. If this were Europe, or the US, Oz or NZ I guarantee he would be starting a lengthy jail sentence already.

Good example, although I think the deaths in Thailand is higher.

15,500 is for motorcycles alone.

[giminicrickets]

Nice to see that the Europeans have banned 1 2 go but my question is how did they base their decision. What data where they using. Having see first hand how Orient Thai operated, i'm surprised they didn't banned them also. These 2 operations are run by the same people , ideologically they are the same aren't they, even though they run under different licenses. As a sideline, even as OT was officially grounded in Thailand, they were still operating a B747-300 from Daka to Jeddah under Beman's flt number. Would banning 1 2 go be just a face saving exercise for the Europeans or did I miss something. If its to warn people against using the operators then fine, but the ban has clearly missed some operators.

[LostBro]

Nice to see that the Europeans have banned 1 2 go but my question is how did they base their decision. What data where they using. Having see first hand how Orient Thai operated, i'm surprised they didn't banned them also. These 2 operations are run by the same people , ideologically they are the same aren't they, even though they run under different licenses. As a sideline, even as OT was officially grounded in Thailand, they were still operating a B747-300 from Daka to Jeddah under Beman's flt number. Would banning 1 2 go be just a face saving exercise for the Europeans or did I miss something. If its to warn people against using the operators then fine, but the ban has clearly missed some operators.

The ban is the result of a significant process initiated by concerned people in the UK and France. You are right, there is zero difference in management, ownership, or style between One-Two-Go and Orient Thai airways. The only difference is the pilots. And that's kind of humorous - or terrifying - because insiders there tell us the OTG pilots are more qualified for their aircraft, MD-82s, than the OT pilots are for theirs, 747-200s. However, as you say, the airlines have different AOC and different company names, so my understanding is that it is another process, which is underway.

The point of the bans is to warn Europeans - and anyone else paying attention - to stay off One-Two-Go and Orient Thai aircraft. I learned from a different ThaiVisa thread that the ban prevents UK licensed tour operators from putting passengers on One-Two-Go aircraft at any time. It's really quite powerful and hopefully will soon be extended to Orient Thai Airlines which does fly regularly through Europe, Asia and Africa. (The US will never let them near.)

[DaleBlue]

Air France jet's flight-control system under scrutiny.

Weather looks like less of a factor.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,6741218.story

[LostBro]

Air France jet's flight-control system under scrutiny.

Weather looks like less of a factor.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,6741218.story

Mods, this thread is about One-Two-GO being banned by the EC and the reasons and meaning of that. I'm sure ThaiVisa has a thread on the loss of the Air France aircraft.

[GungaDin]

DaleBlue definitely has a comprehension problem.

[CFIT]

You must forgive DaleBlue's defensive posturing, there's a lot to defend.

Incidentally , Phuket Property Prop- Up Publication ( AKA Phuket Gazette ) had an smoothed over article the finally issued crash report on its front page - but it's not to be found online.

Edited June 6, 2009 by CFIT

[GungaDin]

G'day Cfit.

Did you check pprune & Bonnie's website?

cheers

john