Red-shirts Battle Blue-shirts In Pattaya

[wayfarer108]

T.R.T. were foul

P.P.P were foul

so did the PAD not have the right do demonstrate and pressure the courts into making a decision, before the government was able to change the law/constitution preventing the court ruling (removing the dissolution penalty for vote buying)?

The reds want new elections, but I think everyone knows who would be elected - a Thaksin puppet government that later will be found guilty (again) of buying votes... at which point PAD will cal foul and go on the streets again.

Does anyone here have a solution to this never ending circle?!

That's the crux of the issue, there's no end in sight to the cycle of election, protest, coup etc under the current system

The PAD did offer a way to break the cycle in the New Politics, which were widely misunderstood by those who never bothered to study the points in their later, more detailed versions, and which was endorsed by top Thai law theorists and political scientists. Now that the PAD have largely discredited themselves through tactics much like those we now see among the reds, unfortunately the baby went out with the bathwater.

Thailand needs an electoral system that uses proportional voting and a bicameral structure that gives all major sectors of society a say, so that it's not just villagers (who respond to populist rhetoric that the elite have exploited them, even coming from the number-one elite personality in Thailand) vs urban-dwellers (who view village votes as bought votes, and who view the monarchy and military as less corruptible than the police and plutocrats). As it stands the various sectors of society have no way but protest to voice their frustration at being dominated by majoritarian politics.

Without some sort of proportional system, we'll see red vs yellow vs blue vs the latest colour of the month, interrupted by the occasional election and coup, ad infinitum. The conflicts we see in the streets now may appear to be new in form, but they're part of a political tradition that extends back to the 1930s and 40s Thailand.

The reds are an inextricable link in the cycle, as was Thaksin and as are the Democrats; none of them can break the cycle without forging an entirely different system. The leadership on either side is not likely to challenge the system, as every current party is deeply mired in the patronage system.

Edited April 11, 2009 by wayfarer108

[h90]

How much time did Thaksin have to do "good" and how much of that time did he use to exploit the country for his own good? It's a bit ridiculous to try and compare Thaksin with the PAD me thinks. And to to good is to give people a couple of thousand baht to buy their loyalty... well, I would call that pure exploitation of people who have no education and can't see further than their nose.

Millions - thats millions - of Thai people can now afford healthcare thanks to Thaksin Shinawatra. Before he was Prime Minister Thailand had no national healthcare program. If you couldn't afford healthcare - you died - simple as that. Now the hospitals are overflowing by people many of whom earn less than 300 baht a day but have enough to get treatment for medical conditions minor and serious.

Thaksins supporters are loyal to him and will remain loyal to him not because you naively think he's paying them - they're loyal to him because they look on him as a champion of the poor - a man who stands up for rights of the people of Thailand you condescendinlgy dismiss.

All Thai politicians are corrupt - do you think people of Thailand give a rats ass if Thaksin is?

They dont.

They do care that they can take their children and parents for life saving operations that were previously out of reach.

Pure nonsense. Before was a program and noone got rejected. But it didn't work perfect.

This health care was designed in the CHUAN Government but lack of money not yet implemented.

Lack of money because the former government (member Thaksin) lead Thailand to the 1997 crises.

Tell your wife she should not believe everything DTV tells her....

[plaaduk]

Sling shots with bolts and fire bombs... Pretty much shows me what I needed to see about red shirt protestors.

You obviously didn't follow the tv and articles about the yellowshirts with guns shown on tv firing at people, or are you one of the baying mob on here kissing the arse of the incumbent government,it appears from a lot of posters here that it was perfectly ok for the yellows to do what they wanted but not for the reds,hypocrites the lot of them, espousing about democracy my arse your just a baying mob most of you and a lot just getting on the bandwagon.

Well put! Looks like some of those in this forum deliberately write this way to provoke comments!They are trolls ! Maybe they are put in by the incumbent Government to project and to persuade others to their line of argument! Must have learnt a few tricks from those spooks from the west!

[spidercat]

Rainman, you disappeared for a while there. Out washing the blood out of one of your red t-shirts??

Wow, you were really close there with that guess.

No, actually I was supervising the construction of our house, in specific at that moment, the kitchen. I almost missed your dumb comments for a while, too.

Need any more details or does that satisfy you for now?

i know the colour of your feekin' kitchen... RED!

OH NO!

Don't tell me the 'red kitchens' are joining in with the 'red shirts'

[slim]

'rixalex'

Of course I support Thaksin. He's done more for the people of Thailand than the PAD whose only interest is in Bangkok. Why don't you open your eyes and try undertstand what is happening here and what Thaksin Shinawatra has done for the people of Thailand as opposed the PAD whose only interest are themselves and the other middle class and pseudo upper class people of the capital. Have you taken a look at the current Prime Minister recently?

And you know this because your wife told you, or because you have lived and worked in Thailand for the last ... years, you speak the language and you meet with Thai people of all backgrounds and from all over the country?

What your point ?

I've lived in Thailand over 5 years

I speak the language

I meet Thai people from all backgrounds (in Khon Kaen - don't suppose you know where that is - why not Google it ?)

I know what I know.

Whats your Thai experience - seen a program about it once on TV?

[KhaoNiaw]

Bring on new elections. The PT and Democrats will come out roughly even and it will be up to Newin. I suppose the Yellows will return if the PT forms a government. Will the Reds accept an elected government if he sticks with the Democrats or will they find a reason to re-mobilize?

[mango66]

How much time did Thaksin have to do "good" and how much of that time did he use to exploit the country for his own good? It's a bit ridiculous to try and compare Thaksin with the PAD me thinks. And to to good is to give people a couple of thousand baht to buy their loyalty... well, I would call that pure exploitation of people who have no education and can't see further than their nose.

Millions - thats millions - of Thai people can now afford healthcare thanks to Thaksin Shinawatra. Before he was Prime Minister Thailand had no national healthcare program. If you couldn't afford healthcare - you died - simple as that. Now the hospitals are overflowing by people many of whom earn less than 300 baht a day but have enough to get treatment for medical conditions minor and serious.

Thaksins supporters are loyal to him and will remain loyal to him not because you naively think he's paying them - they're loyal to him because they look on him as a champion of the poor - a man who stands up for rights of the people of Thailand you condescendinlgy dismiss.

All Thai politicians are corrupt - do you think people of Thailand give a rats ass if Thaksin is?

They dont.

They do care that they can take their children and parents for life saving operations that were previously out of reach.

Looks you not yet grown up and just had seen a movie

of robin hood !

Go in a thai cinema, and look which mivies are there shown !

Come back to reality !

for 20 bht healthcare you even cant get a bullet !!

[neverdie]

Rainman, you disappeared for a while there. Out washing the blood out of one of your red t-shirts??

Wow, you were really close there with that guess.

No, actually I was supervising the construction of our house, in specific at that moment, the kitchen. I almost missed your dumb comments for a while, too.

Need any more details or does that satisfy you for now?

Well you only posted 19 seconds after my post, so you couldnt of really been supervising anything.....you been attending the reds school of how to lie and not get caught out....or were you secretely hiding in on the yellows school of the same lesson?

As I said before, your jumping up and down like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest....you should remove your red underwear and sniff......it stinks.

[Mrkisskissbangbang]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up previously but this forum now seems to be sponsored by THE NATION newspaper. I also noticed that at the outset of this particular post, only The Nation articles were quoted. I remember during the last PAD vs red shirt power struggle that The Nation newspaper was firmly on the side of the PAD and were quite openly supportive of it. Where does that leave this forum in terms of "impartiality" and starting out with unbiased views. After the last power struggle, I vowed to never pick-up The Nation newspaper again, and here it is, on this forum being peddled as impartial enough to start off a balanced debate. Surely, we should start the forum with at the very least The bangkok Post and The Nation as they seem to read the current state of affairs rather differently.

[LuckyFive8888]

From The Nation:

Red shirts who broke into press hall of a Pattaya hotel demanded Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to step down, claiming that the he ordered shootings of two taxi drivers who are red shirts members.

...

"Abhisit Vejjajiva should step down as the prime minister as he was the one who ordered the killings," he said.

He claimed that two taxi drivers were seriously injured this morning. One later died while another was suffering from serious wounds.

Moreover, the premier also ordered police to disperse the red shirts and to use weapons on the protesters.

...

He claimed he and the red shirts will stay peacefully in the hall but the government have to find the shooters.

Full story:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...ed-shirt-leader

irresponsible news reporting again. there should be a law with regards to the media that "misleading the reader" should be prosecuted of up to 100 to life years in jail. the term "ordered the killing" is misleading and 100% sure not the right words to describe this situtation. shame on all the media reporters who are exploiting this incident to sell their nonsense.

You know you should quit while your behind.....

First you make that comment about tuk tuk drivers

now this????

You know that report said this...........

PM Abhisit is a killer and liar : red shirt leader

That mean a red shirt leader said that. SO that is 100% accurate.

Perhaps a 100 years of reading comprehension is in order??

OK, so if the read shirt leader say that your a dumbass then it's 100% true?

i can't believe that you think what is written in the media is 100% true... this is exactly the reason why the reds are on the streets; because thaksin told them this and that, etc. and they believed him... bunch of stoop!

[SirDougless]

About time Thailand returned to absolute monarchy. Thais have no idea about the concept of democracy. Be they yellow (PAD) or red (UDD) shirts. All are all sore losers. It really hurts me to say it, but they are all fcukwits when it comes to some basic concepts of life. They don't deserve what their constitution has granted them.

Even my Isaan wife (a Thaksin fan), who thankfully arrived here yesterday before anything stupid happens again, recognises the immaturity of her country folk.

[edwardmoulton]

I just had the Thai TV translated to me by my wife and apparently they are going to revoke the state of emergency because of Songkran and they don't want to damage tourism - well thoguht out beforehand wasn't it. Hahaha What a bunch of halfwits...

[CrossBones]

Welcome Back "Monty Python's Flying Circus!

Monthy Python meets Peter Pan!

[mango66]

How much time did Thaksin have to do "good" and how much of that time did he use to exploit the country for his own good? It's a bit ridiculous to try and compare Thaksin with the PAD me thinks. And to to good is to give people a couple of thousand baht to buy their loyalty... well, I would call that pure exploitation of people who have no education and can't see further than their nose.

Millions - thats millions - of Thai people can now afford healthcare thanks to Thaksin Shinawatra. Before he was Prime Minister Thailand had no national healthcare program. If you couldn't afford healthcare - you died - simple as that. Now the hospitals are overflowing by people many of whom earn less than 300 baht a day but have enough to get treatment for medical conditions minor and serious.

Thaksins supporters are loyal to him and will remain loyal to him not because you naively think he's paying them - they're loyal to him because they look on him as a champion of the poor - a man who stands up for rights of the people of Thailand you condescendinlgy dismiss.

All Thai politicians are corrupt - do you think people of Thailand give a rats ass if Thaksin is?

They dont.

They do care that they can take their children and parents for life saving operations that were previously out of reach.

[edwardmoulton]

About time Thailand returned to absolute monarchy. Thais have no idea about the concept of democracy. Be they yellow (PAD) or red (UDD) shirts. All are all sore losers. It really hurts me to say it, but they are all fcukwits when it comes to some basic concepts of life. They don't deserve what their constitution has granted them.

Even my Isaan wife (a Thaksin fan), who thankfully arrived here yesterday before anything stupid happens again, recognises the immaturity of her country folk.

You are right in many ways but the problem is then they will stay like that forever as it is that that made them like that in the first place...! So as every other country advances, Thailand retreats into lower standards in everything and countless missed opportunities because it simply is not important enough for the hi-so ruling families to bother with the poor...

[Livinginexile]

For the life of me I can't understand what the problem is here!

Just hold fresh elections and let the majority rule!

That's democracy.

What is the problem?

[flying]

irresponsible news reporting again. there should be a law with regards to the media that "misleading the reader" should be prosecuted of up to 100 to life years in jail. the term "ordered the killing" is misleading and 100% sure not the right words to describe this situtation. shame on all the media reporters who are exploiting this incident to sell their nonsense.

You know you should quit while your behind.....

First you make that comment about tuk tuk drivers

now this????

You know that report said this...........

PM Abhisit is a killer and liar : red shirt leader

That mean a red shirt leader said that. SO that is 100% accurate.

Perhaps a 100 years of reading comprehension is in order??

OK, so if the read shirt leader say that your a dumbass then it's 100% true?

i can't believe that you think what is written in the media is 100% true... this is exactly the reason why the reds are on the streets; because thaksin told them this and that, etc. and they believed him... bunch of stoop!

Oh stop your the one looking like a DA

Learn to read yes read .....not Red as opposed to Red not read.

I never said I believe the Media 100% I was just responding to your nutty post.

"misleading the reader" should be prosecuted of up to 100 to life years in jail.

Edited April 11, 2009 by flying

[jbhh]

Would anyone agree with me that the PM let it come to this on purpose?

He's a very intelligent person and he had enough time to prepare for the events in Pattaya, it make me think he wanted the reds to cross the line so he has the right to stop them from doing anything stupid in the future. If he would have acted before and called enough security to make sure they can't interrupt the summit, none of this would have happened and he in return would have no reason to take action against the red.

I would call it a smart move, however the reds will most likely say he got lucky when looking at the outcome of today's events in a couple of days or so.

[ohdearohdearohdear]

I just had the Thai TV translated to me by my wife and apparently they are going to revoke the state of emergency because of Songkran and they don't want to damage tourism - well thoguht out beforehand wasn't it. Hahaha What a bunch of halfwits...

Will the last farang to leave please turn the big screen tv off at the begining of walking street

[jbhh]

For the life of me I can't understand what the problem is here!

Just hold fresh elections and let the majority rule!

That's democracy.

What is the problem?

a Thaksin puppet government will be voted for and later it will be found guilty (again) of buying votes... at which point PAD will cal foul and go on the streets again.

[flying]

For the life of me I can't understand what the problem is here!

Just hold fresh elections and let the majority rule!

That's democracy.

What is the problem?

Too Easy

Too Honest

Too much like a Democracy

I agree 100% with you though

[edwardmoulton]

I just had the Thai TV translated to me by my wife and apparently they are going to revoke the state of emergency because of Songkran and they don't want to damage tourism - well thoguht out beforehand wasn't it. Hahaha What a bunch of halfwits...

Will the last farang to leave please turn the big screen tv off at the begining of walking street

Excellent!

[debcmai]

Seems to me many people are making judgements based on class. Just because the red-shirts are of lower class does not mean that they are any worse than the yellow shirts who caused mayhem. If anything perhaps the yellows are worse, because as supposedely better educated people they should know better. Thuggery is thuggery, it doesn't matter how you dress it up or try to justify it. However, while I generally support strong action from police, I think it would be wrong if they take a more heavy handed attitude against the reds, unless innocent lives are at risk or security forces are killed. The red-shirts already feel aggrieved, rightly or wrongly, but beating the crap out of them is only going to inflame the situation and maybe encourage more people to get involved. Remember, at the moment many of these people have nothing to lose!

I found a Thai co worker of mine...educated, and her husband as well, very happy when the PAD took the airports...they were so excited...like the 'good guys' were finally winning, or something. I asked them, ' What about the 350,000 farangs stranded in this country, some old, some sick, some with kids. Some having used up their alloted monies and ready to go home, empty pockets. Missed flights, have to book new hotel rooms, etc? " She looked at me, dumbfounded. "Oh," she said in that oh so Thai way, "Airline will give back the money, right?" I was shocked, but of course she has never traveled internationally and not realized how desparate things can be if a country falls apart while you are there. She really did assume that somehow, all the nice farangs would have all their money reimbursed....so problem....mai ben rai! The lack of logisitcal thinking in this country, where I have lived and worked among them for a decade, reading, writing speaking, the language, so I am NOT bashing them, but the lack of logisitcal thinking, no forward planning, no, "but if I do this , then what about that?" is quite dangerous in times like these.

Having said all of that, I have never been a champion of K. Thaksin, however in Isaan where I work, I have a very dear friend, a teacher for 20 years, Thai, who said that while she doesnt know about all the 'corruption' of Thaksin, for the first time in 20 YEARS...her students had books, bicycles for those who lived too far to walk, she had supplies to use in her little govt class rooms. It was a wonder, she said.

He may have been a bully and a brute...but face it, democrats ( funny name for you. who wish 70 percent of govt ministers appointed)....he did do some good for the poor. In your years in office, you never did half as much.

[mango66]

Let us not be too critical of poor barely educated who try hard could do better

When the level headed Dutch, the revolting French and Fighting Irish who voted in EU refernda

Their mandate was not respected.

When the actual votes in Florida were counted did democracy win?

Thailand is not quite ready to be a Banana Republic,perhaps in Asokes next re-incarnation.

With a ltd grasp of public relations and impact on inward investment and tourism/retirement

Just as Maggie Thatchers legacy was Blair

Malaysia my second home programme and Singapore etc must be laughing all the way to the bank

Gloria Arroyo from Bih whorehouseswap The Flippas has been helicoptered ou no doubt to get work permits for working gals in Angles city

Where are the wise words from respected leaders? The Burmese revolt was led by holymen.

Absit's a dead duck (just as the generals wanted0

and he Chinese bailout must be prejudiced when they cannot even secure an hotel let alone cash!

Am I the only one who can smell a coup coming

Easter rising coup mock elections corruption reminds me of a screensaver of nodding donkeys

Not only you got the smell of a coup !

I hope its already on the way !

For Thailand and his people,

they will not understand it today,

they would wellcome it today,

if they would realice how the other

world thinking about Thailand today !

[qualtrough]

How much time did Thaksin have to do "good" and how much of that time did he use to exploit the country for his own good? It's a bit ridiculous to try and compare Thaksin with the PAD me thinks. And to to good is to give people a couple of thousand baht to buy their loyalty... well, I would call that pure exploitation of people who have no education and can't see further than their nose.

Millions - thats millions - of Thai people can now afford healthcare thanks to Thaksin Shinawatra. Before he was Prime Minister Thailand had no national healthcare program. If you couldn't afford healthcare - you died - simple as that. Now the hospitals are overflowing by people many of whom earn less than 300 baht a day but have enough to get treatment for medical conditions minor and serious.

Thaksins supporters are loyal to him and will remain loyal to him not because you naively think he's paying them - they're loyal to him because they look on him as a champion of the poor - a man who stands up for rights of the people of Thailand you condescendinlgy dismiss.

All Thai politicians are corrupt - do you think people of Thailand give a rats ass if Thaksin is?

They dont.

They do care that they can take their children and parents for life saving operations that were previously out of reach.

Pure nonsense. Before was a program and noone got rejected. But it didn't work perfect.

This health care was designed in the CHUAN Government but lack of money not yet implemented.

Lack of money because the former government (member Thaksin) lead Thailand to the 1997 crises.

Tell your wife she should not believe everything DTV tells her....

You are full of rubbish. Many poor and not so poor Thais were very pleased with the medical program instituted by Thaksin, and that is one of the principle reasons they miss him. Before you trash me, I should let you know that I speak/read/write Thai very well and do not get my news filtered through my wife.

[MyphuketLife]

Rainman, you disappeared for a while there. Out washing the blood out of one of your red t-shirts??

Wow, you were really close there with that guess.

No, actually I was supervising the construction of our house, in specific at that moment, the kitchen. I almost missed your dumb comments for a while, too.

Need any more details or does that satisfy you for now?

Well you only posted 19 seconds after my post, so you couldnt of really been supervising anything.....you been attending the reds school of how to lie and not get caught out....or were you secretely hiding in on the yellows school of the same lesson?

As I said before, your jumping up and down like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest....you should remove your red underwear and sniff......it stinks.

wow why such attacks neverdie? you should not attack TV members in this fasion it makes you look more foolish than the avatar you sport...

[Indra]

How much time did Thaksin have to do "good" and how much of that time did he use to exploit the country for his own good? It's a bit ridiculous to try and compare Thaksin with the PAD me thinks. And to to good is to give people a couple of thousand baht to buy their loyalty... well, I would call that pure exploitation of people who have no education and can't see further than their nose.

Millions - thats millions - of Thai people can now afford healthcare thanks to Thaksin Shinawatra. Before he was Prime Minister Thailand had no national healthcare program. If you couldn't afford healthcare - you died - simple as that. Now the hospitals are overflowing by people many of whom earn less than 300 baht a day but have enough to get treatment for medical conditions minor and serious.

Thaksins supporters are loyal to him and will remain loyal to him not because you naively think he's paying them - they're loyal to him because they look on him as a champion of the poor - a man who stands up for rights of the people of Thailand you condescendinlgy dismiss.

All Thai politicians are corrupt - do you think people of Thailand give a rats ass if Thaksin is?

They dont.

They do care that they can take their children and parents for life saving operations that were previously out of reach.

Pure nonsense. Before was a program and noone got rejected. But it didn't work perfect.

This health care was designed in the CHUAN Government but lack of money not yet implemented.

Lack of money because the former government (member Thaksin) lead Thailand to the 1997 crises.

Tell your wife she should not believe everything DTV tells her....

What's wrong with carrying a program from former government?

In fact, the program is up and running now.

I am wondering if you have sufficient knowledge on how government from developing countries work i.e. They may make good program but fail in the execution for certain reason (named corruption)

[henryalleman]

IMHO Abhisit is playing the game very intelligent not using violence yet, more and more the red's are loosing credibility with the Thai population. Because lets face facts, there is no general support from the Thai people to the red's.

I suggest you get out of Bangkok and test that theory, come up to Chiang Mai for starters and then work your way across to the North East of the country.

Taksin is still regarded with great respect in many areas outside of the capital.

JxP

My evaluation is based on my numerous contacts in Isan and North, many of them have been Thaksin fan, but now the majority like to give Abhisit the benefit of the doubt.

And they show no interest what so ever any more about the demonstrations.

Their only comment" this NO GOOD, NO GOOD should not do like that."

The fact that his family leaving Thailand while he urge people to bring their childeren to demonstrate is really not much apreciated(understatement).

[jbhh]

T.R.T. were foul

P.P.P were foul

so did the PAD not have the right do demonstrate and pressure the courts into making a decision, before the government was able to change the law/constitution preventing the court ruling (removing the dissolution penalty for vote buying)?

The reds want new elections, but I think everyone knows who would be elected - a Thaksin puppet government that later will be found guilty (again) of buying votes... at which point PAD will cal foul and go on the streets again.

Does anyone here have a solution to this never ending circle?!

That's the crux of the issue, there's no end in sight to the cycle of election, protest, coup etc under the current system

The PAD did offer a way to break the cycle in the New Politics, which were widely misunderstood by those who never bothered to study the points in their later, more detailed versions, and which was endorsed by top Thai law theorists and political scientists. Now that the PAD have largely discredited themselves through tactics much like those we now see among the reds, unfortunately the baby went out with the bathwater.

Thailand needs an electoral system that uses proportional voting and a bicameral structure that gives all major sectors of society a say, so that it's not just villagers (who respond to populist rhetoric that the elite have exploited them, even coming from the number-one elite personality in Thailand) vs urban-dwellers (who view village votes as bought votes, and who view the monarchy and military as less corruptible than the police and plutocrats). As it stands the various sectors of society have no way but protest to voice their frustration at being dominated by majoritarian politics.

Without some sort of proportional system, we'll see red vs yellow vs blue vs the latest colour of the month, interrupted by the occasional election and coup, ad infinitum. The conflicts we see in the streets now may appear to be new in form, but they're part of a political tradition that extends back to the 1930s and 40s Thailand.

The reds are an inextricable link in the cycle, as was Thaksin and as are the Democrats; none of them can break the cycle without forging an entirely different system. The leadership on either side is not likely to challenge the system, as every current party is deeply mired in the patronage system.

well said , but question is how does "forging an entirely different system" look like? Do you think the "proportional system" would work? I kinda like the idea, but it could backfire big time as the "losers" would most likely get the people whose votes they bought to demonstrate as they think they got screwed.

[Dmitry]

pattaya need more troops! and maybe a tank or two..