Chiang Mai Ram Hospital, Taking The Piss!

[PostmanPat]

Hi All,

Have heard so many stories of late about Ram Hospital a. Overcharging and b. Poor treatment that I thought this would be a good topic to discuss and share experiences and hopefully get good advice where to go as an alternative.

First, the latest anecdote, from today, one of many similar stories. A good friend of mine had a tickly throat/ possible tonsil situation, went down to get it checked as a precaution. Five minutes with the Doc, no serious problem, just some antibiotics needed. They go to paypoint. The bill? 1300 Baht!! 100 for Nurse, 300 for Doctor, but get this, 900, yes 900 for a one week course of antibiotics. They paid the Nurse/ Doctor fee, but refused to take the antibiotics, then guess what? Bought the same antibiotics over the counter at a nearby Pharmacy for 300!!!!!

Ram Hospital really do take the piss these days, and I for one will not use them again, despite it being the only place I ve used in my 5 years in Chiang Mai, and despite the fact that I have a BUPA policy.

Anybody elses experiences appreciated, and general advice of places to go where English is spoken reasonably well. The small clinic on Loi Kroh has been strongly recommended for smaller walk in stuff....but other thoughts/ advice welcome.

By the way, as far as Dentists are concerned, Grace is a disgrace!! Nice surgery etc, but ludicrous prices for simple things. I now use Dentalland just off Nimmenhamin, excellent service and half the price.

[Ajarn]

Of course, never buy meds at a hospital (except govt. )

And if you know what you need, and ask for it, almost anyplace will work, including Ram.

[samuibeachcomber]

Most private hospitals charge like a wounded bull,they've got to pay for the palatial surroundings somehow and often get cranky when we farangs knock back the medicine from their pharmacy.

My first stop is always the local pharmacy,i need to be dying before i enter a private hospital,because from experience they try so many various procedures for what ever you've come to them for just to up the bill.

[Flatouthruthefog]

In my experience, your BUPA card would be no protection against the Greed Of Ram.

After my little boy's 1st 3 night stay 18 months ago (he was covered by my policy) there was a 2,000b extra charge when we left "for room service not covered by your policy." We had asked for NO extras whatever, and no more explanation was obtained.

Like a mug I took him there again for the same period 6 months later. This time the overcharge had doubled to 4000b.

Thai wife and I made a real stand this time, but we may as well have talked to the wall. Asked for the 'foreign liaison' officer. At the time I'd been told it was a very helpful and reasonable German expat with fluent Thai and English. He was "not on duty" of course, and no-one could give me his name or number.

Third and last time the little chap needed treatment we went straight to Rajavej (opposite the Holiday Inn). Not so smart and flashy, room cleaned only when you ask (but then done promptly, cheerfully and well) but truly excellent care. When we went IN we asked if there would be extra charges. They said yes, sorry, 300b because you've come in after 8.00pm and it's needed to help pay the night-duty doctor. And that was it. No other extras.

The Raj beats the Ram, hands down.

[hill16]

A mate of mine's wife hurt her arm in an accident. They went to Ram. Had the arm X-rayed. They told her it was broken. My mate asked to see the x-ray and to be shown where exactly the break was. Lo and behold, there was no break! Disgusting! Apparently, the staff have to meet a certain target in baht income per month. Funny thing was that my mate's wife is Thai and would've paid without question because 'the doctor' said so. Bring on the revolution but in the mean time, caveat emptor.

[elektrified]

A mate of mine's wife hurt her arm in an accident. They went to Ram. Had the arm X-rayed. They told her it was broken. My mate asked to see the x-ray and to be shown where exactly the break was. Lo and behold, there was no break! Disgusting! Apparently, the staff have to meet a certain target in baht income per month. Funny thing was that my mate's wife is Thai and would've paid without question because 'the doctor' said so. Bring on the revolution but in the mean time, caveat emptor.

That is outrageous. Malpractice for sure. Greed at the very least.

[engineer]

You mean..... You have never heard the expression " Chiangmai SCAM " used ?

I have made it pretty clear to my friends, even if I am dying dont take me to that place.

I have seen how they operate especially when they can smell insurance

Its all about money in the, wee it is with all businesses but they take it to the limit. As soon as you have seen a Doctor a little Nurse hooks onto your arm

and takes to that little room beside the parking to pay. There is no trust in there.

I remember being in Bumrungrad in BKK and I had some stuff done. They give me the bill and told me to go pay. I went on a tour of the hospital, had lunch at mickey dees and then 1 hour later i wandered in to pay the bill.

These people even use their ambulances as herses and then charge for it. I would hate to be picked up in one of the thimgs knowing that they use it to transport coffins around chiangmai as well.

[swain]

It really is amazing the price difference for the same drugs from Ram, an independent pharmacy and a government hospital pharmacy.

Ram being the most expensive for the exact same drugs.

Second most expensive being a chain store pharmacy especially if you use First Drug as they are almost as expensive as Ram. For the most part First Drug keeps many different brands of drugs but they are all the most expensive alternatives or generics. Pharmachoice wasn't bad, but the best prices came from the no name pharmacies.

Third and the most amazing difference is a government hospital. I have always heard horror stories from many Thai people about the quality of care but I have found them to be attentive, forthcoming, and efficient. The drugs, the same drugs were 10 percent of Ram and half of the drug stores.

That being said if I was dying I would want to be brought to Ram. If major surgery Ram of course.. But if I have a bronchitis or something non life threatening then I will skip Ram every time.

I always have the same problem at Ram when I say I don't want the medication. One time I got a straight answer from one of the Nurses that spoke adequate English. She explained that charging more for the drugs is how they can afford to give high quality medical attention. She said that much of the operating costs of the hospital are in the price of the drugs. I explained that I could understand that, and that if the bill reflected this it would be clear to the customer what they were paying for. But to hide it in the price of the drugs wasn't being honest with their clients. She gave me a nasty look and was on her way.

Ram for life threatening illness and surgery! Government hospital for everything else with one exception. My 2 year old daughter, because my wife would never let our daughter have anything but first class medical attention. I tried to go someplace different once... never heard the end of it. Life is too short for that kind of aggravation.

Edited April 13, 2009 by swain

[tigerbeer]

we used to take the kids to Ram for flu, cold fever etc etc. Antibiotics were refused at times. no matter what sort of attitude the lady at the counter shows. i tell them straight at their face that i rather buy the antibiotics at less than half the price somewhere else.

nowdays i take kids, myself or the missus to Loi Kroh clinic.

and like Swain mentioned, if i was dying or need serious attention, then i'll use my health policy at RAM.

the AIA policy for my kids were used twice and covered everything at RAM. BUPA was too expensive for the same coverage. the claim was entirely taken care by the RAM staff. who cares what the insurance company was charged for it.

Pharmacy: i totally stay clear from the pharmacy upstairs opposite Homepro in Carrefour Superhighway. AssH%$#^. The one pharmacy i used to frequent for everything is DARA pharmacy opposite the Shell station at Keaw Nawarat RD where the McCormick Hospital is. They have a huge range of drugs but can be a bit pricey. Now i go to the pharmacy at Chareon Prathet Rd. It is at the intersection near BKK bank where the Sayuri Massage road connects Chareon Prathet and Keaw Nawarat roads. Best prices in town i think. Family owned.

[IanForbes]

For most medical problems I just go to a pharmacist. I get the drugs without the extra charge. I only go to a doctor or hospital for something serious... like a deep wound I can't fix myself with antibiotics and a bandage. Even motorcycle exhaust burns or road rash that get infected can be fixed just as well by a pharmacist. Anything simple like colds or viruses are best taken care of by licensed pharmacists. Also, it's been my experience that ALL pharmacists seem to speak English. That is more than I can say for all doctors.

[phanu]

we used to take the kids to Ram for flu, cold fever etc etc. Antibiotics were refused at times. no matter what sort of attitude the lady at the counter shows. i tell them straight at their face that i rather buy the antibiotics at less than half the price somewhere else.

ANTIBIOTICS FOR FLU ????????

If one day Doctor give you antibiotics for FLU, go away and change doctor.... !!!

I went to RAM 1 for PIG FLU and of course only one medecine works for flu : Tamiflu...

Flu comes from virus, antibiotics is for microbes !!!!!!

[PeaceBlondie]

The OP asked for recommendations. Like a broken record, I recommend Sripat, Special Medical Services Clinic, 13th floor of the big white tower that faces Suan Dok Gate on Suthep Road. Not sure about pediatrics or ob/gyn, but every service I have tried (maybe ten specialties) have done me well, cheaply, quickly. Some of the staff are professors at the medical school. And the pharmacy seems excellent, or you can go down Suthep Road toward the mountain and use the pharmacy of the CMU Faculty of Pharmacy, on the left side. The hospital across from Holiday Inn seems good, as already mentioned.

[meadish_sweetball]

At times, extracting a certain amount of urine is necessary in order to correctly diagnose a patient's medical condition.

I agree with the original poster in that this extraction should not occur in conjunction with the pricing of medical supplies, though.

[tigerbeer]

we used to take the kids to Ram for flu, cold fever etc etc. Antibiotics were refused at times. no matter what sort of attitude the lady at the counter shows. i tell them straight at their face that i rather buy the antibiotics at less than half the price somewhere else.

ANTIBIOTICS FOR FLU ????????

If one day Doctor give you antibiotics for FLU, go away and change doctor.... !!!

I went to RAM 1 for PIG FLU and of course only one medecine works for flu : Tamiflu...

Flu comes from virus, antibiotics is for microbes !!!!!!

antibiotics when needed/prescribed. not for flu.

and wasn't Tamiflu for Bird Flu?

[likite]

Postman pat you are right to post about Chiang Mai Ram and Grace as warnings. My experiences are very similar in both cases (with Ram it was their attitude) but there are some who don't see it that way. There attitude, costs and standards leave a lot to be desired. I posted this some 3 years ago now - seems nothing much has changed http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ram-Internat...7805.html&h might be worth a read for some.

[elektrified]

The OP asked for recommendations. Like a broken record, I recommend Sripat, Special Medical Services Clinic, 13th floor of the big white tower that faces Suan Dok Gate on Suthep Road. Not sure about pediatrics or ob/gyn, but every service I have tried (maybe ten specialties) have done me well, cheaply, quickly. Some of the staff are professors at the medical school. And the pharmacy seems excellent, or you can go down Suthep Road toward the mountain and use the pharmacy of the CMU Faculty of Pharmacy, on the left side. The hospital across from Holiday Inn seems good, as already mentioned.

I concur with PeaceBlondie regarding Sripat. Many of those same doctors at Ram also have offices at Sripat as well as their own clinics. Almost every Thai I know here goes there as well, having tried most of the other hospitals in town. My g/f says the ob/gyn doctors there are the best. Some are Professors at CMU. I don't know about the Pediatricians.

[eek]

My experience of Ram (well, within one department anyway), was to be not only be charged excessive amounts, but charged for repeated misdiagnosing and over-medicating, exacerbating my health problem..chronically. Only after months of being sick and not getting better did I find this out when I took several trips to Bangkok's Bumrungrad to get a proper diagnosis and correct treatment. I now go to Suan Dok (as recommended by the Doctor at Bumrungrad). Overcharging is one thing, misdiagnosing (and as someone mentioned, possible malpractice in some cases) and effectively making a persons health worse is another thing.

My links on my experience, for anyone interested:

First: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Subacute-Thy...is-t124529.html

second: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hypothyroidi...;hl=hypothyroid <--this one is the link where i found out Ram misdiagnosed and over-medicated me. Post #11

Third: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hashimoto-s-...is-t211661.html

I dont know about other departments, but personally im VERY wary of Ram..and would rather go through the long queues at Suan Dok knowing im being treated based on my symptoms, rather than how much they can get out of me.

[john b good]

Most private hospitals charge like a wounded bull,they've got to pay for the palatial surroundings somehow and often get cranky when we farangs knock back the medicine from their pharmacy.

My first stop is always the local pharmacy,i need to be dying before i enter a private hospital,because from experience they try so many various procedures for what ever you've come to them for just to up the bill.

"i need to be dying" what dying your hair.....

[Loaded]

but the Ram nurses are well fit.

[PeaceBlondie]

eek prefers "would rather go through the long queues at Suan Dok knowing im being treated based on my symptoms, rather than how much they can get out of me." SriPat clinic has very short queues. The only time the doctor took over an hour, I walked out. The other 100-odd times, they were prompt. far better than doctors in Texas.

I was dying to get my hair dyed, but I went next door.

[eek]

PB, my experience has always been at least an hour of waiting. Might be just my doc/area though. She seems to be very much in demand.

But, very happy with the level of care, so the wait is worth it. My doc always takes time to explain everything well and, if i have any questions or concern, is happy to talk about it with me.

Waiting is never great, but even if it were longer, it would be worth it.

Good to know that it isnt always the case however (long waiting times).

[Dean1953]

I went to Ram last June because it was one of two hospitals approved by the U.S. Embassy to have Thais get the required shots to qualify for permanent residency visas. The cost of the paperwork wasn't much but t he shots were outragious. For my wife, her two daughters and one son, the cost was 50,000 baht. And this didn't even cover half the shots required (some shots required 3 injections, over a 6 month time). I'm curious if I could have gone to a government hospital and got the shots for a lot less? I did let the U.S. Embassy know about my displeasure with the cost but I'm sure they could care less.

[tigerbeer]

My experience of Ram (well, within one department anyway), was to be not only be charged excessive amounts, but charged for repeated misdiagnosing and over-medicating, exacerbating my health problem..chronically. Only after months of being sick and not getting better did I find this out when I took several trips to Bangkok's Bumrungrad to get a proper diagnosis and correct treatment. I now go to Suan Dok (as recommended by the Doctor at Bumrungrad). Overcharging is one thing, misdiagnosing (and as someone mentioned, possible malpractice in some cases) and effectively making a persons health worse is another thing.

Bangkok's BUmrungrad is 10 times worse than Ram when it comes to taking the piss.. so I have heard.

[eek]

I believe its that Bumrungrads prices are exorbitant, but that the Doctors are highly trained and professional. But, I really dont know for sure. Sheryl kindly recommended me an excellent Doctor there. No regrets that i went, just for that initial proper diagnosis and to get my health on the right track.

[Gonzo the Face]

I went to Ram last June because it was one of two hospitals approved by the U.S. Embassy to have Thais get the required shots to qualify for permanent residency visas. The cost of the paperwork wasn't much but t he shots were outragious. For my wife, her two daughters and one son, the cost was 50,000 baht. And this didn't even cover half the shots required (some shots required 3 injections, over a 6 month time). I'm curious if I could have gone to a government hospital and got the shots for a lot less? I did let the U.S. Embassy know about my displeasure with the cost but I'm sure they could care less.

Its really not confusing Dean. SCAM I is just working in conjunction with the U S Gov't in getting your family acclimated to Life in the US . Something like getting prepared for US Medical charges. The 50,000 you were charged for the group, was about what you will pay for one tooth to be capped next year.

But NO, National Health Care or a Better Health Plan cannot be...... why ???? The medical and pharmacutical industry must have an individual, 7 or 8 figure guaranteed annual income.....

I don't want to get started on this, I haven't taken my pills yet and my BP may go over the top

Edited April 14, 2009 by Gonzo the Face

[sendbaht]

Thank goodness for having great health I am no expert on hospitals.

Heath or no health we do crash at times on motorcycles (don't we PeaceBlondie?) like I did a month ago.

Only hospital I knew and was familiar with was Ram. I used them 3 months ago for my Thai drivers license medical

certificate. The cost for the health certificate was B100. My experience so far was fair so I walk in to see why my chest

hurt so much after my fall off my motorbike.

With my Ram card in hand and already filled out all paper work before I was in the Ram system, which was another ease. Ram now has my name, address and my Bupa Insurance policy on file. 5 minutes later I was in the x-ray room. The pretty nurse told me to take off my shirt and turn around, gladly I did. Many x-rays later and 2 specialist/surgeons it determent I has 2 broken ribs. I saw the surgeon because my broken ribs were number 2 and 3 close to blood vessels, instread of most broken ribs being 10 11 or 12.

I was not worried about the price because I had full medical insurance. I also knew that if I do not use my Bupa for the policy year I save 10% and the total amount next year and it was coming up May 1st. With some quick basic math at the check out counter I choose to pay for it out of my own pocket. Never have I been in a hospital that was as friendly and professional as Ram. So my experience was a good one but hope though to never walk in there again.

[richard10365]

CM Ram makes most it's extra money by over charging people who pay with insurance. They don't over charge a lot because they don't want to arouse suspicion. When I noticed their mistake, they gave me back a refund.

I think if most consulates in Chiang Mai got together and demanded an investigation, one might happen. But our complaining here on Thai Visa will accomplish nothing. The only thing we can do is warn people not to go to CM Ram. Perhaps we should pin a topic at the top of the Chiang Mai forum to warn people of businesses like CM Ram.

[tigerbeer]

CM Ram makes most it's extra money by over charging people who pay with insurance. They don't over charge a lot because they don't want to arouse suspicion. When I noticed their mistake, they gave me back a refund.

I think if most consulates in Chiang Mai got together and demanded an investigation, one might happen. But our complaining here on Thai Visa will accomplish nothing. The only thing we can do is warn people not to go to CM Ram. Perhaps we should pin a topic at the top of the Chiang Mai forum to warn people of businesses like CM Ram.

if u think the Ram overcharges insurance companies, take a peek at how much hospitals overcharge the national Social Insurance (Pakarn Sangkhom). I have one with Rajavej and the last time i went there for some URTI, they came up with a bill of THB2,000 to the care of Pakarn Sangkhom. Medicines prescribed : generic amoxicillin, generic clarityn, generic paracetamol and generic flemex. No one talks about it ! I am not paying so... its ok ..

you are right, complaining about it doesn't get you anywhere. spend that same effort on drinking some beer instead

[Ulysses G.]

Most people are saying that they would never go to RAM unless they have an important problem and then they would go nowhere else. I guess that is why they can get away with the high prices!

[richard10365]

you are right, complaining about it doesn't get you anywhere. spend that same effort on drinking some beer instead

I think sometimes, drinking beer is why some people end up at CM Ram.

Edited April 14, 2009 by richard10365