Infants On Motorbikes.

[neverdie]

I'm not condoning nor condeming what choices other parents make regarding their offspring. I fervently believe in Darwinism and so rather than interfere with the natural order of things I let Nature sort sh!t out.

And yep, I love me numbers...

Yes I remember once before we went at it & you started bouncing alot of numbers around the place. Naturally, I am sure you recognise there are many factors to consider with these types of things and everytime you eliminate or include a new factor the numbers change.

[barky]

In the west these westerners are prevented from engaging in such stupdity. However, in Thailand there is no public safety effort so foreigners with limited intelligence levels are are allowed to engage in dangerous activities. As many people have pointed out in other threads, it's not so bad in the long run as the net result is that many of these sub normal intelligence types and their progeny are removed from the gene pool

Agree completely. When I first arrived some years ago I was shocked, and couldn't believe the stupidity. Nowadays, I don't even think about it when I see these rediculously unsafe practices on the roads/footpaths.

I just do all I can to ensure that none of these brain-deads involves me in any mishap.

If they want to kill themselves and their children that's their problem as long as they do it while I'm not around.

[IanForbes]

Ian, I normally enjoy your posts, but you have got me with this one. What a LOAD OF RUBBISH. Wards full of motorcyclists. Outnumbering car accident patients 10 to 1.

I have extensive experience in dealing with this issue & I'm not sure where your wife was working, maybe it was a hospital located in a town for the metally challenged and there were not many cars or something? Maybe a moto cross circuit nearby....there has to be some reason why this was the case in ur wifes hospital.....OR ARE ONE OF YOU COOKING THE BOOKS??

I'm not cooking the books. My wife worked in a ward of patients with head injuries. Most of her patients had been involved in motorbike and bicycle accidents. Very few had been involved in auto accidents.

Except for the very bad ones, auto accidents seldom cause a lot of injuries. A simple accident on a bike in traffic can kill you. Without wearing a helmet it is easy to have serious head injuries at speeds under 20 km per hour. A bar girl friend of mine died three years ago of a simple fall off her Honda Dream. She went to the hospital, and after cleaning up a few cuts and bruises they sent her home. She died that night of a blood clot to the brain. It happens all the time, but once a patient arrives alive in a Thai hospital the subsequent later death caused by a traffic accident is not reported as a traffic fatality.

[jtp]

In general, thai parents don't care vey much if they loose a child, just get pregnant again. That is how they solve a "problem" like this.

Every now and then i see a comment that defies belief...Your outlook on Thai family life is incredible.I have yet to see a Thai family that was not devastated by the loss of a child in ANY circumstance.I'm really holding back on this one......

[neverdie]

Ian, I normally enjoy your posts, but you have got me with this one. What a LOAD OF RUBBISH. Wards full of motorcyclists. Outnumbering car accident patients 10 to 1.

I have extensive experience in dealing with this issue & I'm not sure where your wife was working, maybe it was a hospital located in a town for the metally challenged and there were not many cars or something? Maybe a moto cross circuit nearby....there has to be some reason why this was the case in ur wifes hospital.....OR ARE ONE OF YOU COOKING THE BOOKS??

I'm not cooking the books. My wife worked in a ward of patients with head injuries. Most of her patients had been involved in motorbike and bicycle accidents. Very few had been involved in auto accidents.

Except for the very bad ones, auto accidents seldom cause a lot of injuries. A simple accident on a bike in traffic can kill you. Without wearing a helmet it is easy to have serious head injuries at speeds under 20 km per hour. A bar girl friend of mine died three years ago of a simple fall off her Honda Dream. She went to the hospital, and after cleaning up a few cuts and bruises they sent her home. She died that night of a blood clot to the brain. It happens all the time, but once a patient arrives alive in a Thai hospital the subsequent later death caused by a traffic accident is not reported as a traffic fatality.

Okay Ian, so the stories comes out a little further....she was working in a ward for 'head injuries', which is a little different than your general ward, isnt it.

You keep losing me with your comments, the "auto accidents seldom cause a lot of injuries" is absolute rubbish. Perhaps you arnt elaborating on exactly what you are trying to say. Perhaps you are saying that a motorcyclist involved in a MVA is more likely to receive injuries than the person in the motor car/vehicle, whatever you want to call it.

Let it be known that the costs relating to dealing with people seriously injured in motor vehicle collisions (cars) is absolutely HUGE. Its a world wide thing, not just something that relates to Australia, Canada or Thailand.

[neverdie]

In general, thai parents don't care vey much if they loose a child, just get pregnant again. That is how they solve a "problem" like this.

Every now and then i see a comment that defies belief...Your outlook on Thai family life is incredible.I have yet to see a Thai family that was not devastated by the loss of a child in ANY circumstance.I'm really holding back on this one......

Yes, BUT jtp, it is evidently clear that Bjorn engaged his fingers in this post without engaging his brain. I wouldnt give it a second thought.

[bonobo]

Ian, I normally enjoy your posts, but you have got me with this one. What a LOAD OF RUBBISH. Wards full of motorcyclists. Outnumbering car accident patients 10 to 1.

I have extensive experience in dealing with this issue & I'm not sure where your wife was working, maybe it was a hospital located in a town for the metally challenged and there were not many cars or something? Maybe a moto cross circuit nearby....there has to be some reason why this was the case in ur wifes hospital.....OR ARE ONE OF YOU COOKING THE BOOKS??

I'm not cooking the books. My wife worked in a ward of patients with head injuries. Most of her patients had been involved in motorbike and bicycle accidents. Very few had been involved in auto accidents.

Except for the very bad ones, auto accidents seldom cause a lot of injuries. A simple accident on a bike in traffic can kill you. Without wearing a helmet it is easy to have serious head injuries at speeds under 20 km per hour. A bar girl friend of mine died three years ago of a simple fall off her Honda Dream. She went to the hospital, and after cleaning up a few cuts and bruises they sent her home. She died that night of a blood clot to the brain. It happens all the time, but once a patient arrives alive in a Thai hospital the subsequent later death caused by a traffic accident is not reported as a traffic fatality.

Actually, that makes sense to me. Especially when belted, car accidents, if they cause major injuries but leave the victim alive, tend to cause chest, leg, and neck injuries. But a motorcycle crash is infamous for causing head injuries.

Additionally, head injuires can take a long, long time to heal, if they ever heal. THerapy can be long and arduous. So this type of patient may have very long extended stays in the hospital.

There was a 20-year old woman in Pattaya a few months ago on a scooter who wasn't even moving, but was bumped by a truck at a light, and she fell over, hitting her head on the curb.  She died right there. She had no other injruies at all, just the one blow to the head.

[Datsun240Z]

In general, thai parents don't care vey much if they loose a child, just get pregnant again. That is how they solve a "problem" like this.

[dave_boo]

Yes I remember once before we went at it & you started bouncing alot of numbers around the place. Naturally, I am sure you recognise there are many factors to consider with these types of things and everytime you eliminate or include a new factor the numbers change.

I admitted there were holes in my argument due to lack of information. It's hard to create a rebuttal when you do not have a baseline. However, I got off my lazy ass and found some more information. Per this link, in 2003 Thailand had 18 Million registered bikes. And per this link, there were 13 116 deaths related to motorcycles. Per this link, in 2003 there were 5.4 Million registered bikes in America and 3 714 deaths. So Thailand had 1 death per 1 372 motorcycles that year. The US had 1 death per 1 453 registered motorcycle. So my antagonists argument that Thailand and America should have the same percentage of deaths stands in regards to the information available. Conjecture as to the number of un-registered bikes (which if the report linked here is correct should be in the 2 526 629 additional range) and km traveled definitely skews the stats into my favour, but we don't have those now do we? However, as shown in a previous post, the number of deaths per vehicle is the same-same.

Quoting from the DOT Report:

One out of four motorcycle riders (26%) involved in fatal crashes in 2007 were riding their vehicles with invalid licenses at the time of the collision, while only 13 percent of drivers of passenger vehicles in fatal crashes did not have valid licenses. Motorcycle riders involved in fatal traffic crashes were 1.3 times more likely than passenger vehicle drivers to have a previous license suspension or revocation (18% and 14%, respectively). In 2007, 3.7 percent of the motorcycle riders involved in fatal crashes had at least one previous conviction for driving while intoxicated on their driver records, compared to 2.9 percent of passenger vehicle drivers.

Combine that with the lack of experience that most Americans have on motorcycles, and you have a recipe for disaster. I don't know why we're comparing apples to oranges. That is similar to saying that because at least 18% of Americans overweight, people in Thailand should stop eating as much to prevent long term hospital stays!

[neverdie]

Ian, I normally enjoy your posts, but you have got me with this one. What a LOAD OF RUBBISH. Wards full of motorcyclists. Outnumbering car accident patients 10 to 1.

I have extensive experience in dealing with this issue & I'm not sure where your wife was working, maybe it was a hospital located in a town for the metally challenged and there were not many cars or something? Maybe a moto cross circuit nearby....there has to be some reason why this was the case in ur wifes hospital.....OR ARE ONE OF YOU COOKING THE BOOKS??

I'm not cooking the books. My wife worked in a ward of patients with head injuries. Most of her patients had been involved in motorbike and bicycle accidents. Very few had been involved in auto accidents.

Except for the very bad ones, auto accidents seldom cause a lot of injuries. A simple accident on a bike in traffic can kill you. Without wearing a helmet it is easy to have serious head injuries at speeds under 20 km per hour. A bar girl friend of mine died three years ago of a simple fall off her Honda Dream. She went to the hospital, and after cleaning up a few cuts and bruises they sent her home. She died that night of a blood clot to the brain. It happens all the time, but once a patient arrives alive in a Thai hospital the subsequent later death caused by a traffic accident is not reported as a traffic fatality.

Actually, that makes sense to me. Especially when belted, car accidents, if they cause major injuries but leave the victim alive, tend to cause chest, leg, and neck injuries. But a motorcycle crash is infamous for causing head injuries.

Additionally, head injuires can take a long, long time to heal, if they ever heal. THerapy can be long and arduous. So this type of patient may have very long extended stays in the hospital.

There was a 20-year old woman in Pattaya a few months ago on a scooter who wasn't even moving, but was bumped by a truck at a light, and she fell over, hitting her head on the curb. She died right there. She had no other injruies at all, just the one blow to the head.

Exactly right bonobo, in a head unit you will find alot people that have been involved in motorcycle accidents. Its like in the snowy regions visiting an Orthopedic unit, where theres hundreds of skiers laid up.

Ian is definately right, motorcyclists tend to get head and spinal injuries, as well as all those other types of injuries that are sustained when a body comes into heavy impact with metal and the like.

Theres no arguement when it comes to the actual IMPACT. Most sane people would rather be strapped into a car at that exact moment....HAVING SAID THAT, theres a billion and one circumstances where I would rather be on a motorcycle than a car, but like Bard I believe I have considerable experience and skills that relate to riding. Both good drivers and riders try not to place themselves in situations where grief may occurr. As I said, if it were to occur I would much rather be in a car.

I first piped up because Ian said about "Wards being full of motorcyclist" and "motorcyclist outnumbering car drivers 10 to 1".

The thing that surprises me most about car drivers is many think they are indestructable behind the wheel, when the fact is a collision with an impact speed of 60km/h can be DEVASTATING to the vehicles occupants. In fact a study conducted in a test in the United States examining fatal motor vehicle collisions revealed that half of all fatal car collisions between 1993 & 1997 involved cars travelling at speed less that 50km/h. Travelling at 60km/h in a modern car feels safe, but its an illusion. Impacts at this speed have a very high risk of severe or fatal injuries.

Cars are commonly referred to amoungst Accident Investigator as "Coffins on wheels". It is the case that there are plenty of people in hosptials all around the world as a result of motor vehicle collisions and theres absolutely NO WAY that motorcyclists outnumber car by 10 to 1. As for head units being full of motorcyclists, I can tell you that I have visited far more car drivers and passengers inside such wards than motorcyclists, but then again there are many more cars on the roads than motorcycles unless of course you are talking about the asian countries.

To pull this back on topic a little bit, an infant on a motorcycle involved in a collison is going to be fairly predicatable. Just about every bone in their body is smaller and more fragile, even with a cheap helmet as they wear here, the results are going to be very bad. Even in motor cars, in the west children are restrained in everything from capsuals to booster seats with special harnessing, the reasons are very obvious. It would be very nieve for someone from the west to think that children should be banned from motorcycles in these parts, there mere sad fact of it all is most of these people cant afford motorcars, so how do you expect them to get their children around?

Edited July 14, 2009 by neverdie

[toptuan]

Can't say I've seen the police pull motorbikes when the passenger is not wearing a helmet, only when the driver is not wearing a helmet.

I was pulled over with a helmet-less passenger.

I know. Shame on me.

[bonobo]

Exactly right bonobo, in a head unit you will find alot people that have been involved in motorcycle accidents. Its like in the snowy regions visiting an Orthopedic unit, where theres hundreds of skiers laid up.

Ian is definately right, motorcyclists tend to get head and spinal injuries, as well as all those other types of injuries that are sustained when a body comes into heavy impact with metal and the like.

Theres no arguement when it comes to the actual IMPACT. Most sane people would rather be strapped into a car at that exact moment....HAVING SAID THAT, theres a billion and one circumstances where I would rather be on a motorcycle than a car, but like Bard I believe I have considerable experience and skills that relate to riding. Both good drivers and riders try not to place themselves in situations where grief may occurr. As I said, if it were to occur I would much rather be in a car.

I first piped up because Ian said about "Wards being full of motorcyclist" and "motorcyclist outnumbering car drivers 10 to 1".

The thing that surprises me most about car drivers is many think they are indestructable behind the wheel, when the fact is a collision with an impact speed of 60km/h can be DEVASTATING to the vehicles occupants. In fact a study conducted in a test in the United States examining fatal motor vehicle collisions revealed that half of all fatal car collisions between 1993 & 1997 involved cars travelling at speed less that 50km/h. Travelling at 60km/h in a modern car feels safe, but its an illusion. Impacts at this speed have a very high risk of severe or fatal injuries.

Cars are commonly referred to amoungst Accident Investigator as "Coffins on wheels". It is the case that there are plenty of people in hosptials all around the world as a result of motor vehicle collisions and theres absolutely NO WAY that motorcyclists outnumber car by 10 to 1. As for head units being full of motorcyclists, I can tell you that I have visited far more car drivers and passengers inside such wards than motorcyclists, but then again there are many more cars on the roads than motorcycles unless of course you are talking about the asian countries.

To pull this back on topic a little bit, an infant on a motorcycle involved in a collison is going to be fairly predicatable. Just about every bone in their body is smaller and more fragile, even with a cheap helmet as they wear here, the results are going to be very bad. Even in motor cars, in the west children are restrained in everything from capsuals to booster seats with special harnessing, the reasons are very obvious. It would be very nieve for someone from the west to think that children should be banned from motorcycles in these parts, there mere sad fact of it all is most of these people cant afford motorcars, so how do you expect them to get their children around?

Of course, there are many more car drivers in the West than motorcycle drivers, so there are going to be many mroe car accident victims. And having been an EMT, cars do kill people, plain and simple.  I was commenting on Ian's post that in a head injury ward, it makes sense to me that there are more motorcycle victims than car victims due to the mechanics of injuries.

Between 1993 and 1997, though, I don't know how many cars had airbags, both front and side.  These have cut down the prevalence of serious injuries and death as a result of low-speed accidents.  I personally worked on a young man in 1990 who was a passenger in a car travelling at about 25 MPH when another car at about the same speed t-boned his car.  He died within minutes.  If his car had been equipped with passenger airbags, it is likely that he would have lived (the damage to the car was not that great.)

As far as my own experience, I was sleeping as a passenger in a car going at 75 MPH when we went off the road and rolled a number of times.  My only injury was a cut on my head when I released my seatbelt while upside down and fell on the broken glass there.  I know I would not have been sleeping as a passenger on a bike, but I am sure glad I never crashed at 75 MPH while on a bike.  I am sure I would not have gotten off so easy.

As far as the cheapie helmets for kids, no, at speed, I doubt they would do much good.  BUt the way these kids are stuck on bikes, I would not be surprised if many kids just fall off, even when the bike is stopped at a light or whatever.  And for  a simple fall or a fall where the speed is very low, even a cheapie helmet should offer some protection.  

[HYENA]

3 visits ago we were waiting for a Taxi just as we heard a screech and the guy laid it on the pavement, girl skidding off the back hitting a moving car, bike pinwheeling to the curb, guy and rolling into traffic. The cars swerved and we went to scoop her up. They shook it off, caught their breath and someone donated his shirt to rip and tie on her skinned arm (to the bone) and leg then they got back on and left. Just as we were discussing what just happened, coming from the other direction...SCREECH! and ANOTHER motorcycle got the wobbles and that thing did a body slam on that guy like a flyswatter. i thought surely he'd be dead. Accident #1 had helmets (both their heads smacked the pavement and they were inspecting the helmet scrapes). Luckily accident #2 also had a helmet. Funny, he was wearing leathers...limping badly to the side and some guys helped him bend the handlebar and he picked up a footpeg and shifter and put them in the compartment and went off stuck in whatever gear he was in several minutes later.

Next day it happened again, same place! This isn't any tricky intersection, only a turn into our development. So that was 3 in 2 days. I didn't see the next day one but they said it happens all the time.

Next week up north, I was cautiously riding one of these scooters (can't really call them motorcycles) and I was turning a corner and the wheels gave right out when I had a blowout. The tire looked pretty new. I've ridden nice bikes a bit and banked corners but when I laid this thing down, it skinned my hide off my leg and ankle quite a bit and a local gas station owner came with a little first aid. i tried to decline but he insisted so I offered money and he said no (now I'm a loyal customer).

...Anyway, my point is the wheels and tires on these are very thin and can't take much speed or pressure. The frame is weak and they get the wobbles easily and skid super easy on the road. I rode 3 all together (except a brand new automatic step through scooter thingy cruised nicely-1 month old).

Maybe there's a reason you can't buy all the brands in all countries because of their safety? After inspecting the tires, they felt OK but they just didn't hold up or grab the pavement anything like what I'm used to (motorcycle in my country or a 10 speed bike even).

My friend and I were there 3 months ago and during a single week, we had a total of FIVE blow outs on 3 tires (his and mine). I was teasing him when mine had one (not that moment but...). I'm not exaggerating here. We kept going to the same guy to fix it who said he keeps busy all day until finally the tire on my friend's bike blew out and came off (can't repair that one but they do repair big holes). None of the holes were repeat breaks telling me there's a big problem with the makeup (and dirt roads don't help either). wait wait! I forgot! The week we arrived another blow out so on these two bikes 6 flats and the tires had tread on them. Granted, the roads are rough but a real motorcycle wouldn't be blowing tires every turn.

I think the tires are VERY unsafe as is the frame and wheel base. They still had tread on them but it's obvious they can't take corners or bumps without wanting to blow somewhere or get a hole. The bikes themselves get out of tune quickly after a spill and it's so easy to spill them from not gripping the road, wobbles and odd center of gravity. Look at all the m/c's in your soi and see the damage. Most of the time damage=injury on a bike.

My two baht. I love to ride them but they are far more dangerous than a regular motorcycle or even a bicycle in my opinion.

When I worked in the heart transplant ward, we'd nickname these kids on the bulletbikes "heart donors" because brain injury victims are prime candidates for harvesting the heart.

Edited July 15, 2009 by HYENA

[LawnGnome]

Always a good thread when the comfortable and well educated have a go at the poor and uneducated for their stupidity....this is what makes ThaiVisa such a memorable place to be....

[Mosha]

Mirrors on motorbikes are not a driving aid. They are for checking hair and teeth.

[bonobo]

Always a good thread when the comfortable and well educated have a go at the poor and uneducated for their stupidity....this is what makes ThaiVisa such a memorable place to be....

Sorry, but you are off base here.  There are some things which are universally wrong no matter a person's financial wherewithal or education.  Getting people killed on bikes or endangering children on bikes is wrong whether in Bangkok or St Louis, and mentioning this is hardly a sign of egocentric superiority.

As many posters have written here, we understand that many people have little choice in choosing their means of transportation.  But that does not alleviate the fact that this is often dangerous to the children. And if a child must be transported on a bike, there are things which can be done to mitigate at least some of the danger.

All of us have undoubtedly done stupid things which could be self-destructive.  I know I have done many, many of them in my life, at least. In driving alone, I have sped way above the speed limit, ridden my share of bikes, ridden on bald tires hoping they last until I can drive the 2,000 miles home, driven my car out on untested ice on a lake, and many other foolish things. But just because I have been foolish does that does not make it a good thing to endanger children.

[toptuan]

Mirrors on motorbikes are not a driving aid. They are for checking hair and teeth.

...and squeezing pimples....

[mauGR1]

we can all agree that motorbikes are dangerous,and carry children on motorbikes too,and if there is no police to enforce the law,why get bored and wear a helmet.The fact is the locals don't have a choice if they want,for instance, the children to go to school.If the parents are responsible, they ride slowly and carefully in order to reduce the odds of an accident closed to nil,and we have no right to criticize their habits.I 'm appalled instead when i see (many) Farangs on holiday parroting the Thais and carry small children on motorbikes.They have the choice,still they risk their children limbs and lives.That's unresponsible.

[pattaya_girl]

When I see small children on Motorbikes, it makes me cringe....

If I had small children, I would rather walk than risk losing them.

[IanForbes]

Video clip from a car jumping a light and motorcycle running a red light. It's a common occurance everywhere but the biker always comes off second best.

A crotch rocket at speed slams into a small car going through a red light. I wouldn't want to be the rider or a passenger in the car. The rider might even have been better off.

But, little children do not really have an option. They are at risk of whatever situation their parents put them through. Allowing young teenagers to ride motorbikes in traffic is crazy. Boys think they are invincible. Thais believe Buddha is going to protect them and they are not responsible for any of their own actions. It really doesn't have anything to do with the Thai's love of their children. I KNOW they love their children. They just don't think they are responsible for their own actions.

[venturalaw]

Always a good thread when the comfortable and well educated have a go at the poor and uneducated for their stupidity....this is what makes ThaiVisa such a memorable place to be....

Sorry, but you are off base here.  There are some things which are universally wrong no matter a person's financial wherewithal or education.  Getting people killed on bikes or endangering children on bikes is wrong whether in Bangkok or St Louis, and mentioning this is hardly a sign of egocentric superiority.

As many posters have written here, we understand that many people have little choice in choosing their means of transportation.  But that does not alleviate the fact that this is often dangerous to the children. And if a child must be transported on a bike, there are things which can be done to mitigate at least some of the danger.

All of us have undoubtedly done stupid things which could be self-destructive.  I know I have done many, many of them in my life, at least. In driving alone, I have sped way above the speed limit, ridden my share of bikes, ridden on bald tires hoping they last until I can drive the 2,000 miles home, driven my car out on untested ice on a lake, and many other foolish things. But just because I have been foolish does that does not make it a good thing to endanger children.

Precisely. A child has no choice. An adult has a choice. There is always an alternative to taking a child on a motorcycle. Take a taxi, call upon a neighbor. At least put a helmet on the child. There is no excuse ever to risk a child's life.