Pad Leader Sondhi Limthongkul Shot

[Plus]

October 9 was only two days after police unprovoked and bloody crackdown on demonstrators. PAD's been bracing for more.

Somehow opposition MPs do not mind THAT, a day when there was a lot more innocent blood spilt, but try to find some non-existent victims of Songran riots.

The answer - they were in charge in October, violence perpetrated by them is alright, their victims do not deserve any justice.

[TAWP]

Additionally, the three M16 bullets are believed to have been discharged from an M203 rifle, which is an M16 with the M79 grenade launcher.

Lines like this is so painful to read.

An M203 is a grenadelauncher, much like the M79. The M79 is a standalone weapon with buttstock while the M203 is a weapon-attachment, i.e. it is mounted on a RIS/RAS on the weapon in question, in this case an M16. (You don't have to use a RIS/RAS, but fast 'attach and detach' and great modularity makes this the favoured choice. The thai army most likely only uses a direct attachment to the M16(A2?) that makes it much slower to detach it.

Anyway, there is no way to know if the M16 firing three M16( assuming they mean 5.56x45 NATO) bullets as an attachment, like a scope, painted buttstock or dices in the rear view mirror of your car, doesn't make any stamps to the bullets fired...had an M203 attached.

But I digress...

[TAWP]

M-203

Technically, it is an M4 with an M203 grenade launcher and an ACOG scope.

[Samuian]

Hard to imagine a gun nut like Sae Daeng not drooling over the opportunity to fire this at a "live human moving target"

What a weapon!

yeah similar thoughts sprung up earlier...Sea Deang.... this assumption maybe after all not that kind of a "far shot"!

What makes me really wonder is, that this was staged either by absolute nutters,

absolute newbies or complete idiots.

Way too many things that could go wrong - have been done wrong!

A grenade which wasn't only launched into the wrong target, but didn't go off!

I wonder if these acts are always carried out by the same team!

mhm, impressive piece of steel.

but any evidence for sae dang involved, despite that this sae dang have some strange humour and like to strike some attitudes?  and once said that he dislike the yellow. many others do that as well. he talked big but that is not seldom and you can hear in thailand from many corners and colours. you do misinterpret him.  is he really scary, does he look like a psycho? he is more like a actor, intentional overacting his 'character' like a comedian, or the typical thai way of playing a role. he do it to ease his message. he writes books and want to sell them, so he presents himself in a colourful way to get attention and the media attention. he plays the folk hero, borrows here and there, a little bit from rambo or the super hero and crime fighter of the 60ies thai cinema Insee Daeng. he creates an image of himself. it's a show, partly. he have some feuds running with corruption in the police force, make that public and point that out. posing for pictures with a gun and mickey mouse and hello kitty toys, it's an eye catcher. on his website he also published a picture of him doing aerobic dance instruction, that means a photoshop job, intend to mock him. but he doesn't complain about, just repost the image. cool. my impression is not that he is a nutter or total crazy. you get there something wrong.

anyway, the news reports on this incident are very poor and changing from day to day, first a pick up truck with gun men, than they have been on a motobike and now again some pick up truck again. anybody can believe that? that BS the Nation and Bangkok Post writing there. they just repeat what some offical told them. and spin propaganda. first sondhi minor injuries, than he is suddendly in serious condition. on ASTV (according to what the 'says my wife' of a TV member had seen -means  i didn't saw it by myself, just read it on TV forum what and other member had written) the was a report that it is not sure if sondhi will survive or not. mhm. maybe just drama and propaganda, make it sound more worse, so sondhi looks more hero. exaggeration. i read only a very vague reports about the nature of his wounds. no further explanation.

and do we as readers don't have some question? questions the journalists also should ask, to give as some good report. why is the story changing? are there really no eye witnesses, the press could find and ask? that corner of town isn't so dead at this time of the day.

and the assassins have been chased away by a second car, sondhis security. and they have been also shooting and following that car. or pick up, or moto bike. shouting gang war style in a residental aera? how many of the cartridge that found on the scene came from their weapons, guns? who are those armed security mens of sondhi? is it allowed to them to carry weapons and follow the assassins, shouting at them even after the situation of self defence was not more given.there was a report of a five minute long shouting. 5 minutes long the assassins shouting at sondhis car and than the security answered shouting back or was there a five minute long gun fight between them?

can that be legal? in bangkok, at the time of a SoE, a civilian person, guarded by armed security. what for qualification you need to make that possible, to have such guards? and isn't sondhi under investigation of terrorism charges? he can still have his "private army". i remember that a security guard at the ASTV station got arrested last year. there was some shooting and as the police arrived, the guard tried to hide or run away and dropped some guns in the river, but he got caught and arrested. this guard didn't had a licence to hold a gun.  but i didn't read any updates or follow ups on that in The Nation or Bangkok Post.

and are there some qualifications, special training of sondhis guards? are they some EX-? ex army, ex police, ex special team? are they professionals? do they have a police record? or is that just wild wild west?

isn't there are investigation about this? if someone shoot at his home at a burglar who tried to attack him or even had attacked family members already, if that person in self defence shoot at the bulgar he has also to face a lot of questions by the police. but in this case not.

and the changing story, that sondhi, injured, told different things, can happen. but his security, they can wield some guns but can not tell a pick-up truck from a motobike?

did nobady else have that or similar questions? instead of posting speculations thaksin must be behind the attack because sondhi is his main enemy. 

thats all very suspicious  for me. and than the poor quality reporting of The Nation and Bangkok Post. makes me not to believe a lot of other stories inthose so called newspapers. like that story that red shirts shooting and assault inncocent residents and killed them. evidence? because someone was wearing a red shirt? could be an agent provocateur. or anybody else. how they can ruled that out without proper investigation? as the team yellow did go after the airport The Nation care fully wrote that men "dressed as" yellow shirts hijacked a bus and it is not sure if they are PAD members or not. but red shirts shoot at innocent residents get in print without a doubt. other media outlets at the same time wrote about of organised attacks by groups of men in civilian clothes on the reds. could have been blue shirts, yellow shirts or camouflage shirts in disguise as residents. why aren't that suspects as well?

such interesting times at the moment, but the coverage by the thai english print media so low quality and also just plain propaganda and BS (in general and not only the sondhi topic), makes me little bit angry. it's sad, a spoiled change by the lazy journalist or lot of pressure and censorship on the media, so that they not dare to write and report better. and i am surprised to see so many westerners ( i assume) take it at face value, without a doubt as prove and truth. don't you want to know more, is such a simplified message campaign enough for you? do you really believe all this, or just just using it as argument to win silly discussion fight with suspected pro thaksin members. lame and boring. and in no way convincing.

i never was a thaksin fan but the situation at the moment and how it is explained to me by the obvious pro-abhisit media, doesn't make me to a fan of the currrent goverment. that is so fishy. some other TV member compare it to the Pravda, i think he is right.

but who is amateurish here? the government and/or people loyal to them think that is a good way to report about the things? or is it the publisher house or the journalists who are amateurish and not able to report proper. so that maybe the govenrment do actually are professional job, but the way it is filtered down by the local english media makes them look silly. or are both, newspaper and goverment, amateurish on different levels. or is this intention by the newspaper, witty people play dumb and do this Pravda style as protest. or is it a surrealistic parody on NotTheNation, like those jokes that comes without a punchline.

Well, well, well.... "HagenvonTronje", funny you chose that nick -

you know what kind of personality HagenvonTronje supposed to reflect?

"he piece of steel" is mostly made from Aluminium

and Carbon fiber or other Plastic - however

You account about "Sae Daeng" is sweet piece of defense and

nice try to water down his often openly expressed views and Intentions...

you know: where is smoke - there is fire!

Your question about the legality about the Bodyguards being armed and

chasing the assassins questions further the intentions of your post!

Not to mention you point about the reporting of the incident by the Bangkok Post

or The Nation and bringing in "the Pravda" comparison for effect ...

THERE are CCTV Pics which are evidence - photoshop?

The Bus driver of the bus with the M-79 Grenade in it...

The - till now - only ONE Eyewitness who has given

quite clear picture of what happened...

If oyu have CLEAR Evidence - PROOF that it was otherwise

Show it to the Audience!

And make a wrong right!

If not, you prove YOURSELF, your accusations wrong!

Simple!

Edited April 24, 2009 by Samuian

[HagenvonTronje]

October 9 was only two days after police unprovoked and bloody crackdown on demonstrators. PAD's been bracing for more.

Somehow opposition MPs do not mind THAT, a day when there was a lot more innocent blood spilt, but try to find some non-existent victims of Songran riots.

The answer - they were in charge in October, violence perpetrated by them is alright, their victims do not deserve any justice.

look at those two videos.

the first one from the night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxabqsxj4Cs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG4LcdNN2oc

beating defenseles people who lay on the ground, or the second one how this man got arrested, beaten and dragged over the ground. it's the incident where a second video from an different angle exist that look like the red shirt have been shoot. is not the case, he is still alive. but the beating is still there.

reminds me on Tak Bai, but in the streets of bangkok. albeit i have seen similar videos from the bangkok streets allready. when a mob goes on a single person.

and read here how the media lies.

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2009/04/...journalist.html

and why didn't PAD go home after the SoE was declared? and oct 7 wasn't so unprovoked. anyway i don't want discuss this. my point was just the silly reporting in the The Nation " Six men dressed like PAD guards arrested for hijacking bus"

and the innocent residents killed by red shirts? true or not? but thanks for the quality of the forum, here are not 35 pro red trolls who all the time bleat: "pix, or it didn't happen."

unfortunately, these short, not longer than a SMS news by the Nation having almost no value. not the first time that it have been not true and we could later here a different version without pointing out that the previpus message/news have to be corrected (like what kind of transport the sondhi assassins had used?) or there isn't any follow up at all.

and the victims on the yellow side got at least media coverage and even martyrdom. orchestrated by a media mogul.

and who is sondhi? with his security team more like a mafia figure or not. the poor human rights lawyers. dissappering reporters or russion not-pro-putin journalists usually doesn't have such back ups.

[Samuian]

October 9 was only two days after police unprovoked and bloody crackdown on demonstrators. PAD's been bracing for more.

Somehow opposition MPs do not mind THAT, a day when there was a lot more innocent blood spilt, but try to find some non-existent victims of Songran riots.

The answer - they were in charge in October, violence perpetrated by them is alright, their victims do not deserve any justice.

look at those two videos.

the first one from the night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxabqsxj4Cs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG4LcdNN2oc

beating defenseles people who lay on the ground, or the second one how this man got arrested, beaten and dragged over the ground. it's the incident where a second video from an different angle exist that look like the red shirt have been shoot. is not the case, he is still alive. but the beating is still there.

reminds me on Tak Bai, but in the streets of bangkok. albeit i have seen similar videos from the bangkok streets allready. when a mob goes on a single person.

and read here how the media lies.

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2009/04/...journalist.html

and why didn't PAD go home after the SoE was declared? and oct 7 wasn't so unprovoked. anyway i don't want discuss this. my point was just the silly reporting in the The Nation " Six men dressed like PAD guards arrested for hijacking bus"

and the innocent residents killed by red shirts? true or not? but thanks for the quality of the forum, here are not 35 pro red trolls who all the time bleat: "pix, or it didn't happen."

unfortunately, these short, not longer than a SMS news by the Nation having almost no value. not the first time that it have been not true and we could later here a different version without pointing out that the previpus message/news have to be corrected (like what kind of transport the sondhi assassins had used?) or there isn't any follow up at all.

and the victims on the yellow side got at least media coverage and even martyrdom. orchestrated by a media mogul.

and who is sondhi? with his security team more like a mafia figure or not. the poor human rights lawyers. dissappering reporters or russion not-pro-putin journalists usually doesn't have such back ups.

As the first vdo is quite unclear, and no lead to why there is a person treated like this....

for me even difficult to make out if they are Thai troops

The second vdo... is it one of the guys trying to drive a bus into the troops?

why the troops are so obviously upset, about what?

If there are situations like this - at ANY demonstration in the world things get out of hand!

And if soldiers - troops are threatened with buses driven into them... what should they do?

Anupong just made a statement about it today!

There is more to theses stories... then just some tiny vdo clip on you tube!

[Plus]

beating defenseles people who lay on the ground

Who do you want to hold responsible?

Soldiers doing the beating? Their superior officer? Thailand Supreme Commander? Anupong? Abhisit? Prem?

They were putting down armed insurrection, they can give orders and follow up at best of their capabilities, but to hold them responsible for each soldier's action is just whimsical and capricious, especitally coming from PTP ranks who fully supported far bloodier crackdown in October.

[hammered]

beating defenseles people who lay on the ground

Who do you want to hold responsible?

Soldiers doing the beating? Their superior officer? Thailand Supreme Commander? Anupong? Abhisit? Prem?

They were putting down armed insurrection, they can give orders and follow up at best of their capabilities, but to hold them responsible for each soldier's action is just whimsical and capricious, especitally coming from PTP ranks who fully supported far bloodier crackdown in October.

The two crackdowns aside when Jatuporn was proposing trying the PM for murder with so far no evidence of amurder victims from the authorites action, I thought and yes I am sure Jatuporn was demanding PM Thaksin be tried for murderwhen teh authoirties were offing thousands of innocent people under one of his little policies. Funnily enough though I cannot rememeber Jatuporn or any other TRT/PPP/PTP MP making this demand over the deaths of thousands of innocent victims (everyone is innocent until proven guilty) with a lot more evidence than in this case. Maybe someone can correct me on this point so that I can be reassured that Jatuporn is indeed a crusader for democracy and not just a hypocritical pawn in some power game who by the hypocrisy proves he has no real belief or maybe understanding of what democracy is.

Are there any people who have condemned all the excesses of violence of all Thai governments or are we just left with a bunch of team supporters who dont care for anything?

[Tony Clifton]

Just saw on the news that some of the empty bullet cartridges found at the seen were stamped with the Royal Thai Army's mark.

If you asked long enough on this forum, some guy with a brother in law in the army could get you your own army cartridge collection.

Meaningless, says more to me like marked cartridges were used on purpose to point a finger at members of the army, when all this time, the boys in brown were always somehow involved, (cameras off ). Thaksin still has many more friends in helpful places, like well-embedded parasitic ticks any old dog just can't shake off.

The results of the investigation on Sonthi's shooting will give you no more than the conveniently unfinished investigation about the car bomb near Thaksin's residence (failed setup) because all the same players are involved, smells just the same.

"Sae Daeng" has nothing to do with this.

Part of the original PTV core does.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Tony Clifton

[HagenvonTronje]

Well, well, well.... "HagenvonTronje", funny you chose that nick - you know what kind of personality HagenvonTronje supposed to reflect?

Your question about the legality about the Bodyguards being armed and chasing the assassins questions further the intentions of your post!

Not to mention you point about the reporting of the incident by the Bangkok Post or The Nation and bringing in "the Pravda" comparison for effect ...

THERE are CCTV Pics which are evidence - photoshop?

The Bus driver of the bus with the M-79 Grenade in it... The - till now - only ONE Eyewitness who has given quite clear picture of what happened...

If oyu have CLEAR Evidence - PROOF that it was otherwise Show it to the Audience! And make a wrong right! If not, you prove YOURSELF, your accusations wrong!

Simple!

what so funny with that nick, i am pretty sure you don't know more that me about that figure Hagen.

yes i am questioning the legality of the bodyguards! and if someone have further information if there have been are care chase or not. do you have an ANSWER, further informations? that some of the well counted cartridges could have came from the guns of the body guards was my first thougt. after a few of theme have been found with marks like the army are using it, it did take an additional day to find out that they have been realesed by bodyguards during self defence action.

okay let's have a look at all the "CLEAR Evidence"

April 17, 2009

Bus driver files complaint with police as his car damaged during Sondhi's attack (a classic piece of The Nation Journalism)

April 17, 2009

The buses number 30 and 51 which were near Sondhi's car when it was attacked were also damaged during the attack. A passenger of bus number 30 was slightly injured, police said.

April 18??, 2009

There had been serious concerns for Sondhi's life as a bullet lodged in his skull, causing bleeding inside his brain. Vajira Hospital doctors conducted an urgent operation on Sondhi which completed before noon.

PAD's spokesman Parnthep Pualpongpan said at least two attackers riding on a pickup blocked Sondhi's vehicle who was on Samsen Road, heading to Manager newspaper office in Banglampoo area early Friday morning. ...

The attackers then shot four tyres of Sondhi's vehicle before stepping out of their car and sprayed more bullets on the car. The attack lasted about five minutes and the attackers went back to their pickup which sped away along Tevet Road....

Police who rushed to the scene found Sondhi's car riddled with bullets and they could collect more than 100 cartridges of AK-16 and rifles from the scene.

Meanwhile Chamnong Paokorn, 53, a bus driver, said that he was driving his bus past Iamworanut Temple when he saw a blue pickup truck which had no license plate blocked Sondhi's vehicle.

Then two men on the back of the pickup then opened fires on the vehicle. Then another vehicle sped to the scene and exchanged fires with the attackers who later escaped the scene.

April 18, 2009

A medical team there successfully performed an operation to remove several tiny metal pieces from Sondhi's skull.

April 18, 2009

A golden-bronze Isuzu pickup that was following abruptly drove past the van on the left, and two men in the pickup's bed sprayed Sondhi's car with automatic rifle fire for around five minutes before the truck sped off. There were no reports as to whether the gunmen got out of the pickup to fire their weapons.

Apart from 84 spent cartridges from three types of automatic rifles found at the scene, police also found a dud M79 grenade on Bus No 30, which was travelling in the reverse lane. ...

Four surveillance cameras at the scene, operated by traffic police, had been out of order since 1.30pm on Thursday, but two others operated by the city administration captured images of the two vehicles heading towards the scene of the incident, with the pickup trailing Sondhi's vehicle.

April 19, 2009

Police investigators are likely to arrest suspects in the shooting of media magnate Sondhi Limthongkul within a week as many of them have been identified, sources said yesterday....

Three teams of assassins on motorcycles sprayed a hail of bullets at Sondhi, his driver and his secretary, from the front, the back and the side of the vehicle, according to the sources.

Sondhi's guards, following him in another vehicle, also saw the suspects and fired on them, forcing them to speed away before they could complete their mission, they said.

(not only the car colour change, but suddendly they have been on moto bikes, as reported by one of the famous sources of The Nation. that comes from where? read somewhere on the internet, the taxidriver told my wife, or a bangkok call in radiostation?)

April 22, 2009

In the first and only account so far of the attempt on Sondhi Limthongkul's life last Friday, a petrol-station attendant revealed that two gunmen stood up on the bed of a black pickup and sprayed the media mogul's vehicle with bullets.

The unidentified witness said the gunmen were not hooded, and that one was tall with a crew cut, while the other was shorter and bulkier.

Meanwhile, Pol General Thanee Somboonsab, the investigator charged with solving the case, admitted that police had no first-hand evidence about the murder attempt. "We don't know whether the masterminds are connected to the men in uniform, and if they are also behind the grenade attack on the Constitution Court," he added.

Meanwhile, People's Alliance for Democracy member Weera Somkwamkid quoted Sondhi as saying yesterday that while his life was hanging by a thread, his thoughts immediately went to His Majesty the King.

Weera said Sondhi recounted the attack as happening very quickly, but that it was still very clear in his mind. He also dismissed reports of ducking under the driver's seat to escape the hail of bullets.

"He was only thinking about His Majesty during the ambush," Weera said, adding that Sondhi may be discharged from hospital in the next day or two.

April 24, 2009

Plenty of theories, but not a lot of evidence just yet.

Police investigators have yet to finish collecting evidence and statements from witnesses (!)who saw the attack on the outspoken media tycoon. ...

The unnamed witness said he saw men in military-style uniforms fire rifles at Sondhi for a minute before leaving the scene - but he did not see the gunmen's faces.

But the evidence to date has not been strong enough to pin anybody down, even though many public figures and others have jumped to conclusions as to who is behind the attack.

Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya has gone further than anyone, suggesting that former premier Thaksin Shinawatra was behind the assassination attempt.

Sondhi appears to differ with Kasit. Judging from what his son Jittanart Limthongkul and media outlets have said it suspects a faction of the "uniformed armed forces" may be behind the move to kill him....

The military coup theory was floated by red shirt leader Jakrapob Penkair,

Another theory is that Sondhi has a conflict with people in the Cabinet, as he was disappointed with the recent police reshuffle, because officers he was close to were not put in good positions....

Another theory is that pro-government blue shirts wanted to get rid of Sondhi for the simple reason of wanting to merge with the PAD to destroy the red shirts....

Newin Chidchob, leader of the blue shirts and government faction leader, has rejected this allegation. His father Chai, who is the House Speaker, said Newin would never kill anybody since he is kind and loves to help people - otherwise he would not have been elected as an MP many times.

Very few people believe the move to kill Sondhi was caused by a business conflict. (here a lot of different theories added, based on any evidence or just out of the fantasy by whoever wants or hwat the source said or maybe just by the writer of The Nation)

i just selected a few news to the topic from The Nation.

so also people in nearby buses got injured, two buses around with drivers who have to look at the road. Sondhi himself, sondhis bodyguard, the petrol station man. CCTV Pics, you say. what can you actually see on the CCTV footage?

one day writes The Nation arrests will follow this week. a few days later nobody have a clue who could have done it. so what is with the report about the arrests - BS? or perfect journalism without a flaw. is the pick up truck golden-bronze, blue or black. sat they inside and spraied their bullets, stepped later out or have they been standing on the back of the truck? over 100 cartridges or only 84?

so what now? okay eyewitnes accounts you can not trust so much and it is normal that different people saw different things, can not remember the coulor, or if had been five minutes (very unlikely) or only 30 sec. they duck and cover and not watch, like the bus passenger. but you should be able the see if it's a pick up or motobikes, even here that. nobody will watch out for licence plate numbers, would be a fake one or a stolen car anyway. a stolen car would somewhere missed or stand abonded on the road. if the bodyguard shot as well, maybe the are splinters of the car lack. and those bodyguards, thats why i ask, they should be trained even in such emergency situations to keep a cool head and memorised details. observing is the main part of their job. so why nobody ask them what the bodyguards have to say.

is that enough to Proof that The Nation is a low standard paper with a silly breaking news feed? sorry, but with reading The Nation i don't get a CLEAR picture.

[Plus]

Nation is not in charge of investigation. It reports on any developements as they are announced by police. If today's version say it was a bronze Isuzu, they report bronze Isuzu, if tomorrow it's a black Toyota, they'll report black Toyota.

You live under assumption that Nation knows exactly what has happened and are just teasing us with bits of contradicting information everyday.

[HagenvonTronje]

Nation is not in charge of investigation. It reports on any developements as they are announced by police. If today's version say it was a bronze Isuzu, they report bronze Isuzu, if tomorrow it's a black Toyota, they'll report black Toyota.

You live under assumption that Nation knows exactly what has happened and are just teasing us with bits of contradicting information everyday.

The Nation is not the press office of the police. and journalists ask questions and make up their own minds. if the police give me everyday different informations, than i ask why or make exactly that problem to the content of the article for my newspaper instead just reprint what i have been told. or mybe the police had that done, told the press, that the yesterday reported car colour have to becorrected due new evidence. but The Nation failed to deliver that part.

the switching colour is explainable with the nature of eye witness accounts, but what is with this "a source said" "gangster on motobike", "arrests follow soon" story?

you don't rely just on a single source. do research or investigation as well. verify your information before you publish.

shouldn't it be that i can more or less trust the information given by a newspaper? i just said i can give the Nation no credit for that.

and isn't Newin banned from politics? how he can be government faction leader? is it also now offical that Newin is the leader of the Blue Shirts? true?

The Nation

wrote:

Newin Chidchob, leader of the blue shirts and government faction leader, has rejected this allegation. His father Chai, who is the House Speaker, said Newin would never kill anybody since he is kind and loves to help people - otherwise he would not have been elected as an MP many times.

if you are so worried that an 4 year old thread with a statement of abhisit as opposition leader could mislead many TV member and should be closed very fast, how is it than with the reports and inormation given by The Nation?

don't you see there is something wrong with the reporting. the Nation also lack often at given context, where such information or quote was obtained. like where did Chai Chidchob said that his son loves people and never would kill anybody. on a press conference, in an interview, on a TV talk show or in a telephone talk with the newspaper. it's a strong accusation. and his father just didn't say that is total BS, no comment on that, or a longer answer. just with the counter evidence "Newin is kind and loves to help people -otherwise he would not have been elected as an MP many times." did he really say that?

and The Nation has often such quotes of Direct speech in the News, but never add the information where or when it was said.

that isn't a pro,anti, censorship, propaganda, spin doctor problem with the Nation, it's a quality problem and a problem with basic standards of journalism.

[brahmburgers]

Not the Nation's fault for trying to report what they're being fed by various sources.

The police, however, have a believability factor on par with Mr. T.

Just one of many example: A month ago, the report was splashed all over all news channels that a farang head was found in a plastic bag at the end of a rope handing from a bridge - so it must me a mafia-type hit. Roughly a week later, it was deduced that it was not a murder, but instead a suicide (which many on T.Visa had deduced before the police announcement), and it was not clear whether the head was in or alongside a plastic bag.

How to improve reports coming from police and other authorities?

A. report what is known, not what is inferred.

B. If something is unclear, don't be shy about stating it's unclear.

C. Police should know that saying 'We don't know" is not a bad thing,

and it's better than stating something as fact - which later turns out to be wrong.

D. If someone or some group is a strong suspect, name them, if it's appropriate.

Instead, it too often happens that someone is alluded to. Sometimes by only using the first letter of their name. It comes across as coy. Granted, a person is innocent until proven guilty. And there are real fears of lawsuits for 'defamation of character' (as if some of these people had any decent character left to uphold).

[animatic]

beating defenseles people who lay on the ground

Who do you want to hold responsible?

Soldiers doing the beating? Their superior officer? Thailand Supreme Commander? Anupong? Abhisit? Prem?

They were putting down armed insurrection, they can give orders and follow up at best of their capabilities, but to hold them responsible for each soldier's action is just whimsical and capricious, especitally coming from PTP ranks who fully supported far bloodier crackdown in October.

Resiting arrest in a riot zone, or even not going quickly and docily is

reason enough for being manhandled by soldiers in a riot zone.

Driving a BUS at soldiers in a riot zone is logical enough provocation

to getting shot in your drivers seat..

All in all the army used kid gloves and a VERY light hand by all evidense presented so far.

The other video shows absolutly squat of any accuracy.

Staged, real, from another country entirely... who can tell.

But this all comes under the 'throw enough mud and maybe some will stick'

school of gutter politics and is deplorable.

[samgrowth]

The Nation is shitty, we all knew that.

But in Thailand, we don't have much choices; BangkokPost is equally bad.

[Old Man River]

Well, well, well.... "HagenvonTronje", funny you chose that nick - you know what kind of personality HagenvonTronje supposed to reflect?

Your question about the legality about the Bodyguards being armed and chasing the assassins questions further the intentions of your post!

Not to mention you point about the reporting of the incident by the Bangkok Post or The Nation and bringing in "the Pravda" comparison for effect ...

THERE are CCTV Pics which are evidence - photoshop?

The Bus driver of the bus with the M-79 Grenade in it... The - till now - only ONE Eyewitness who has given quite clear picture of what happened...

If oyu have CLEAR Evidence - PROOF that it was otherwise Show it to the Audience! And make a wrong right! If not, you prove YOURSELF, your accusations wrong!

Simple!

what so funny with that nick, i am pretty sure you don't know more that me about that figure Hagen.

yes i am questioning the legality of the bodyguards! and if someone have further information if there have been are care chase or not. do you have an ANSWER, further informations? that some of the well counted cartridges could have came from the guns of the body guards was my first thougt. after a few of theme have been found with marks like the army are using it, it did take an additional day to find out that they have been realesed by bodyguards during self defence action.

okay let's have a look at all the "CLEAR Evidence"

April 17, 2009

Bus driver files complaint with police as his car damaged during Sondhi's attack (a classic piece of The Nation Journalism)

April 17, 2009

The buses number 30 and 51 which were near Sondhi's car when it was attacked were also damaged during the attack. A passenger of bus number 30 was slightly injured, police said.

April 18??, 2009

There had been serious concerns for Sondhi's life as a bullet lodged in his skull, causing bleeding inside his brain. Vajira Hospital doctors conducted an urgent operation on Sondhi which completed before noon.

PAD's spokesman Parnthep Pualpongpan said at least two attackers riding on a pickup blocked Sondhi's vehicle who was on Samsen Road, heading to Manager newspaper office in Banglampoo area early Friday morning. ...

The attackers then shot four tyres of Sondhi's vehicle before stepping out of their car and sprayed more bullets on the car. The attack lasted about five minutes and the attackers went back to their pickup which sped away along Tevet Road....

Police who rushed to the scene found Sondhi's car riddled with bullets and they could collect more than 100 cartridges of AK-16 and rifles from the scene.

Meanwhile Chamnong Paokorn, 53, a bus driver, said that he was driving his bus past Iamworanut Temple when he saw a blue pickup truck which had no license plate blocked Sondhi's vehicle.

Then two men on the back of the pickup then opened fires on the vehicle. Then another vehicle sped to the scene and exchanged fires with the attackers who later escaped the scene.

April 18, 2009

A medical team there successfully performed an operation to remove several tiny metal pieces from Sondhi's skull.

April 18, 2009

A golden-bronze Isuzu pickup that was following abruptly drove past the van on the left, and two men in the pickup's bed sprayed Sondhi's car with automatic rifle fire for around five minutes before the truck sped off. There were no reports as to whether the gunmen got out of the pickup to fire their weapons.

Apart from 84 spent cartridges from three types of automatic rifles found at the scene, police also found a dud M79 grenade on Bus No 30, which was travelling in the reverse lane. ...

Four surveillance cameras at the scene, operated by traffic police, had been out of order since 1.30pm on Thursday, but two others operated by the city administration captured images of the two vehicles heading towards the scene of the incident, with the pickup trailing Sondhi's vehicle.

April 19, 2009

Police investigators are likely to arrest suspects in the shooting of media magnate Sondhi Limthongkul within a week as many of them have been identified, sources said yesterday....

Three teams of assassins on motorcycles sprayed a hail of bullets at Sondhi, his driver and his secretary, from the front, the back and the side of the vehicle, according to the sources.

Sondhi's guards, following him in another vehicle, also saw the suspects and fired on them, forcing them to speed away before they could complete their mission, they said.

(not only the car colour change, but suddendly they have been on moto bikes, as reported by one of the famous sources of The Nation. that comes from where? read somewhere on the internet, the taxidriver told my wife, or a bangkok call in radiostation?)

April 22, 2009

In the first and only account so far of the attempt on Sondhi Limthongkul's life last Friday, a petrol-station attendant revealed that two gunmen stood up on the bed of a black pickup and sprayed the media mogul's vehicle with bullets.

The unidentified witness said the gunmen were not hooded, and that one was tall with a crew cut, while the other was shorter and bulkier.

Meanwhile, Pol General Thanee Somboonsab, the investigator charged with solving the case, admitted that police had no first-hand evidence about the murder attempt. "We don't know whether the masterminds are connected to the men in uniform, and if they are also behind the grenade attack on the Constitution Court," he added.

Meanwhile, People's Alliance for Democracy member Weera Somkwamkid quoted Sondhi as saying yesterday that while his life was hanging by a thread, his thoughts immediately went to His Majesty the King.

Weera said Sondhi recounted the attack as happening very quickly, but that it was still very clear in his mind. He also dismissed reports of ducking under the driver's seat to escape the hail of bullets.

"He was only thinking about His Majesty during the ambush," Weera said, adding that Sondhi may be discharged from hospital in the next day or two.

April 24, 2009

Plenty of theories, but not a lot of evidence just yet.

Police investigators have yet to finish collecting evidence and statements from witnesses (!)who saw the attack on the outspoken media tycoon. ...

The unnamed witness said he saw men in military-style uniforms fire rifles at Sondhi for a minute before leaving the scene - but he did not see the gunmen's faces.

But the evidence to date has not been strong enough to pin anybody down, even though many public figures and others have jumped to conclusions as to who is behind the attack.

Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya has gone further than anyone, suggesting that former premier Thaksin Shinawatra was behind the assassination attempt.

Sondhi appears to differ with Kasit. Judging from what his son Jittanart Limthongkul and media outlets have said it suspects a faction of the "uniformed armed forces" may be behind the move to kill him....

The military coup theory was floated by red shirt leader Jakrapob Penkair,

Another theory is that Sondhi has a conflict with people in the Cabinet, as he was disappointed with the recent police reshuffle, because officers he was close to were not put in good positions....

Another theory is that pro-government blue shirts wanted to get rid of Sondhi for the simple reason of wanting to merge with the PAD to destroy the red shirts....

Newin Chidchob, leader of the blue shirts and government faction leader, has rejected this allegation. His father Chai, who is the House Speaker, said Newin would never kill anybody since he is kind and loves to help people - otherwise he would not have been elected as an MP many times.

Very few people believe the move to kill Sondhi was caused by a business conflict. (here a lot of different theories added, based on any evidence or just out of the fantasy by whoever wants or hwat the source said or maybe just by the writer of The Nation)

i just selected a few news to the topic from The Nation.

so also people in nearby buses got injured, two buses around with drivers who have to look at the road. Sondhi himself, sondhis bodyguard, the petrol station man. CCTV Pics, you say. what can you actually see on the CCTV footage?

one day writes The Nation arrests will follow this week. a few days later nobody have a clue who could have done it. so what is with the report about the arrests - BS? or perfect journalism without a flaw. is the pick up truck golden-bronze, blue or black. sat they inside and spraied their bullets, stepped later out or have they been standing on the back of the truck? over 100 cartridges or only 84?

so what now? okay eyewitnes accounts you can not trust so much and it is normal that different people saw different things, can not remember the coulor, or if had been five minutes (very unlikely) or only 30 sec. they duck and cover and not watch, like the bus passenger. but you should be able the see if it's a pick up or motobikes, even here that. nobody will watch out for licence plate numbers, would be a fake one or a stolen car anyway. a stolen car would somewhere missed or stand abonded on the road. if the bodyguard shot as well, maybe the are splinters of the car lack. and those bodyguards, thats why i ask, they should be trained even in such emergency situations to keep a cool head and memorised details. observing is the main part of their job. so why nobody ask them what the bodyguards have to say.

is that enough to Proof that The Nation is a low standard paper with a silly breaking news feed? sorry, but with reading The Nation i don't get a CLEAR picture.

I have a solution to your problem. Don't buy The Nation. Problem fixed.

[webfact]

Sondhi discharged from hospital

Sondhi Limthongkul left the Chulalongkorn Hospital Saturday morning amid tight security by police.

About 60 policemen were deploy to keep security at the hospital when Sondhi was discharged at 9 am.

He left in a black vehicle with about 4 other vehicles guarding him and headed to his Ban Phra Arthit residence.

- The Nation - 2009/04/25

[Samuian]

Well, well, well.... "HagenvonTronje", funny you chose that nick - you know what kind of personality HagenvonTronje supposed to reflect?

Your question about the legality about the Bodyguards being armed and chasing the assassins questions further the intentions of your post!

Not to mention you point about the reporting of the incident by the Bangkok Post or The Nation and bringing in "the Pravda" comparison for effect ...

THERE are CCTV Pics which are evidence - photoshop?

The Bus driver of the bus with the M-79 Grenade in it... The - till now - only ONE Eyewitness who has given quite clear picture of what happened...

If oyu have CLEAR Evidence - PROOF that it was otherwise Show it to the Audience! And make a wrong right! If not, you prove YOURSELF, your accusations wrong!

Simple!

what so funny with that nick, i am pretty sure you don't know more that me about that figure Hagen.

...........................................edited to shorten lenght of quote to the essential ........

As this is purely assumption, but it proves, to be the same with the rest of your postings, all based purely on assumption, my dear "Hagen"!

P.S.

little advice:

Inform yourself who this "Hagen" Character impersonated and you'll understand!

[Thai at Heart]

Sondhi discharged from hospital

Sondhi Limthongkul left the Chulalongkorn Hospital Saturday morning amid tight security by police.

About 60 policemen were deploy to keep security at the hospital when Sondhi was discharged at 9 am.

He left in a black vehicle with about 4 other vehicles guarding him and headed to his Ban Phra Arthit residence.

- The Nation - 2009/04/25

Glad to see the BIB out in force to get him to the gate. Why does the paper have to tell anyone where he is going?

[Scott]

I bet he will be nervous going to work in the mornings for a while.

[HagenvonTronje]

I have a solution to your problem. Don't buy The Nation. Problem fixed.

i do that already. i don't buy what The Nation want to tell me.

one have to schizophrenic to believe all that inconsistent nonsense and to fool himself if he want still argue that The Nation is a real newspaper.

actually i enjoy reading the The Nation, the entertaining value is much higher than in Not The Nation. the later just simplified the advance comedy of The Nation. additional fun is to see all these people who don't get it and argue The Nation is a real newspaper.

[Old Man River]

I have a solution to your problem. Don't buy The Nation. Problem fixed.

i do that already. i don't buy what The Nation want to tell me.

one have to schizophrenic to believe all that inconsistent nonsense and to fool himself if he want still argue that The Nation is a real newspaper.

actually i enjoy reading the The Nation, the entertaining value is much higher than in Not The Nation. the later just simplified the advance comedy of The Nation. additional fun is to see all these people who don't get it and argue The Nation is a real newspaper.

It is all about freedom of choice. Some on TV argue for having the right to freedom of choice, democracy etc., but when it is something they don't agree with, they laugh at others for exercising their freedom of choice. You don't like The Nation, don't buy it. I like the Nation, I buy it. It is all about freedom of choice.

[hammered]

I have a solution to your problem. Don't buy The Nation. Problem fixed.

i do that already. i don't buy what The Nation want to tell me.

one have to schizophrenic to believe all that inconsistent nonsense and to fool himself if he want still argue that The Nation is a real newspaper.

actually i enjoy reading the The Nation, the entertaining value is much higher than in Not The Nation. the later just simplified the advance comedy of The Nation. additional fun is to see all these people who don't get it and argue The Nation is a real newspaper.

It is all about freedom of choice. Some on TV argue for having the right to freedom of choice, democracy etc., but when it is something they don't agree with, they laugh at others for exercising their freedom of choice. You don't like The Nation, don't buy it. I like the Nation, I buy it. It is all about freedom of choice.

There is an interesting point about reds and media now.They are currently claiming the entire Thai media is bias and against them. Funny how many yellow supporters claim Matichon and Khao Sod are red mouthpieces. That on the red riot and operation to break it up that the local and international media were basically hand in glovbe on how it was reproted is intersting too. To date the reds havent lambasted the international media as a group.

Comparing the media and colour relationship also expsoes similarities. When the yellow GH occupation was starting to prove unpopular and as the move to airport came the yellows started attacking the media as bias. When the redd started mass blockades of Bangkok and ASEAN/riot came along they claimed the media was bias and said they couldnt protect them from their supporters. It seems as unpopular acts increase the media has to be accused of bias to try and minimise the loss of support over stupid acts. Attacking the messenger rather than the message is a very old tactic and usually overemployed when the message is hard to attack as it contains to much truth or too much evidence and attacker lacks any real defence.

[HagenvonTronje]

I have a solution to your problem. Don't buy The Nation. Problem fixed.

i do that already. i don't buy what The Nation want to tell me.

one have to schizophrenic to believe all that inconsistent nonsense and to fool himself if he want still argue that The Nation is a real newspaper.

actually i enjoy reading the The Nation, the entertaining value is much higher than in Not The Nation. the later just simplified the advance comedy of The Nation. additional fun is to see all these people who don't get it and argue The Nation is a real newspaper.

It is all about freedom of choice. Some on TV argue for having the right to freedom of choice, democracy etc., but when it is something they don't agree with, they laugh at others for exercising their freedom of choice. You don't like The Nation, don't buy it. I like the Nation, I buy it. It is all about freedom of choice.

There is an interesting point about reds and media now.They are currently claiming the entire Thai media is bias and against them. Funny how many yellow supporters claim Matichon and Khao Sod are red mouthpieces. That on the red riot and operation to break it up that the local and international media were basically hand in glovbe on how it was reproted is intersting too. To date the reds havent lambasted the international media as a group.

Comparing the media and colour relationship also expsoes similarities. When the yellow GH occupation was starting to prove unpopular and as the move to airport came the yellows started attacking the media as bias. When the redd started mass blockades of Bangkok and ASEAN/riot came along they claimed the media was bias and said they couldnt protect them from their supporters. It seems as unpopular acts increase the media has to be accused of bias to try and minimise the loss of support over stupid acts. Attacking the messenger rather than the message is a very old tactic and usually overemployed when the message is hard to attack as it contains to much truth or too much evidence and attacker lacks any real defence.

go to my last two entries one page back. i am just talking about quality and reliability of information given by The Nation. to proof my point i exercice this one example, the reports about the assassination attempt on the PAD leader on bail.

it doesn't matter if you are wearing a blue, red, yellow shirt or drag or whatever. what is written by The Nation you can not take as FACT.

they publish something without verify and double-check their information. articles lack accuracy.

the messenger got attack when the message contains to much truth or too much evidence, you say? look, for my criticism on The Nation one member jumped on my nickname, one other thought i would be witty to tell me just not buy The Nation. both ignoring the content of my message.

and containing the messages that The Nation brings to us "truth" and "evidence"? sure?

and a phrase like : Newin Chidchob, leader of the blue shirts and government faction leader is not obscure or an example for the lack of proof reading or editing before one press the publish button?

i just can take The Nation for serious, i wish they would have more reliable information for me. i wrote abou that 'how to' be better in my other post.

and i don't think it's to much if i demand, that The Nation also should named the location and time of an interview or how some information was obtained or what is the nature of the source.

if someone else is satisfied with that mickey mouse journalism and doesn't see any needs for improvement, up to them. if they additional declaim, critism on their subject of glorification violates their freedom and democracy at all - now that is just funny. a little bit like the Nation itself.

@ old man - are you Nation staff? i found that webboard here linked on The Nation online. it's maybe not fine to bitch about the landlord when i am guest in his house, but i don't think that this is a pure fan board. and on other newspaper boards i never heard such reply, but with The Nation seems everything possible. and listen to critics helps to improve. and with a better back up Thanong wouldn't have to rely on his standard "you can not understand because your are not thai " defence.

on the other side an improved The Nation would spoil the fun. and that slightly improved The Nation would wake up the environmentalist in me and my new argument would be - waste of paper.

[kurtgruen]

For English News, I usually get it from TAN NETWORK (TOC) and then check the information for accuracy with all the other English Speaking media, I can get my hands on. If TAN manages to fill their airspace with programs, instead of mindless, repetitive commercials, it will be even better, but in the meantime, I still like it for it's news, financial commentaries and Asian programming.

To me, both the Nation and the Bangkok Post, lack quality reporters. (or maybe they just don't have enough reporters on the job). Like anything else in this country, they are trying to make a lot of profit and giving very little substance in return :-(

[sriracha john]

Despite sometimes longish delays in its publication, I hear the Bangkok Herald-Examiner reporting comes with high praises.

Edited April 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[animatic]

The nation and Thaivisa made a partnership deal a few months back.

But I have not seen any change in Thai Visa FORUM content since that time.

Many or most of the regular posters, post consistently to their philosophies.

A rotating contingent of nay sayers and trolls try to twist the general commentary pro-Thaksin.

Usually in short repeated bursts. Then demanding proof that something DID NOT happen.

i.e. prove what doesn't exist, doesn't exist...or what doesn't exist, DOES exist.

A regular bunch of neo-socialist, retro-democracy philosophers,

and anti-elite/monarchist populists inter-leave their personal socio-political bias,

intertwined with Thaksin's or some of the Issan folk's motivations.

And several international posters letting us know how informed

or mis-informed they are from outside of country.

Many with assorted biases, but coming across as honest.

The absolutist red-shirt true believers are still here,

but some seem recently co-opted by red shirt mentors,

using their well meaning zealotry to spread the party line,

using cut and paste to further the general party line.

This leads to obvious changes in writing style and language ability shifts.

In general The Nations partnering of Thaivisa hasn't seemed more than

a masthead ad space within this forum. As it should be.

But as trolls and repeated returns of banned posters get, in turn, banned again,

it proves limited fodder for the Red lovers to cry 'Nation twists things to their way'.

yada yada yada yada... Just not so.

Read the Nation, read the Post, read Bangkok Pundit and Shawn Crispin, and Thitinan...

READ EVERYBODY...left, right and center. Listen to the Red shirts stage pronouncements,

and Jackrabbitpods press releases from hiding, after he hopped off to safer warrens,

and then read here and use it as a source to others sources.

The picture YOU put together from MULTIPLE sources is likely the most accurate.

There are few neutral sources,

but what is common to all sources is likely close to the truth.

Edited April 26, 2009 by animatic

[canuckamuck]

Animatic: It is interesting how your observation gave none of the Pad faithful have any discernible negative traits. It is interesting that any believe in the red shirt's cause equals troll , or robot, or banned poster. Why would that be? Do you think having an opinion different than your own deserves banishment?

Have you considered that you are a wee bit over the edge of sober judgment when it comes to your obsession with the PAD.

How could you possibly discern neutral reporting. If Sondhi was Hitler you'd be goose stepping down sukamvit

And by the way I am not for the reds I am for Thai people escaping feudalism which keeps real education from the masses and all advantages for the establishment. The red side represents that possibility just as much as the yellow side opposes it. Thaksin is yesterday get over it.

Edited April 26, 2009 by canuckamuck

[Old Man River]

@ old man - are you Nation staff? i found that webboard here linked on The Nation online. it's maybe not fine to bitch about the landlord when i am guest in his house, but i don't think that this is a pure fan board. and on other newspaper boards i never heard such reply, but with The Nation seems everything possible. and listen to critics helps to improve. and with a better back up Thanong wouldn't have to rely on his standard "you can not understand because your are not thai " defence.

on the other side an improved The Nation would spoil the fun. and that slightly improved The Nation would wake up the environmentalist in me and my new argument would be - waste of paper.

It is Old Man River which is the title to a song I like. You pounce on The Nation for not being able to get its facts right, but you get something wrong that is so easy.

My view on newspapers is that I never believe everything I read. I read more than one view and then decide for myself. I don't rely on any journalist to tell me what I believe.

I am not employed by The Nation. I am surprised that you would think so. On Thanong, I have had many discussions with him and I often argue with him, but he has never once made the comment that I cannot understand because I am not Thai.

[hammered]

@ old man - are you Nation staff? i found that webboard here linked on The Nation online. it's maybe not fine to bitch about the landlord when i am guest in his house, but i don't think that this is a pure fan board. and on other newspaper boards i never heard such reply, but with The Nation seems everything possible. and listen to critics helps to improve. and with a better back up Thanong wouldn't have to rely on his standard "you can not understand because your are not thai " defence.

on the other side an improved The Nation would spoil the fun. and that slightly improved The Nation would wake up the environmentalist in me and my new argument would be - waste of paper.

It is Old Man River which is the title to a song I like. You pounce on The Nation for not being able to get its facts right, but you get something wrong that is so easy.

My view on newspapers is that I never believe everything I read. I read more than one view and then decide for myself. I don't rely on any journalist to tell me what I believe.

I am not employed by The Nation. I am surprised that you would think so. On Thanong, I have had many discussions with him and I often argue with him, but he has never once made the comment that I cannot understand because I am not Thai.

That is commendable in this day and age when so many across the world just seem to be taken in by constant noise from an organ close to their politcal belief. Not just thinking of ASTV and DTV here but also Fox, Sun etc... Murdoch might be the master of thought control but others have learned