Dual Nationality Travel Could Become Impossible.

[taxexile]

New border controls could penalise Britons with dual nationality

Tens of thousands of Britons with dual nationality risk being stranded abroad when the Government introduces computerised border controls.

By David Millward

Last Updated: 4:12PM BST 18 Apr 2009

Dual nationality Britons will have to use one passport for both legs of their journey.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that the £1.2 billion “e-borders” system was not designed with individuals who hold two passports in mind.

At present, dual nationals (who were born outside Britain) usually use the passport of their birthplace to go home and their British one to re-enter Britain. Travellers born in the US, for example, use their American passport when booking a flight from Britain and when entering and leaving the US – as required by US law – but a British passport on returning to Britain.

All travel plans to be tracked by Government

Internet records to be stored for a yearThe “e-borders” system will log passenger information according to the data provided by the airline, which in most cases will be from the non-British passport used for the outbound journey. As a result, a dual national – even if readmitted to Britain by an immigration officer on showing a British passport – could be registered as an alien with no more rights than any other tourist, and limited to six months in the country.

On a subsequent trip, such a person attempting to return to Britain could be recorded as having broken immigration law. An airline, under the “e-borders” system, would be denied permission to carry the passenger home. Even if a British passport were presented, it would have to be verified by the nearest consulate or by the Passport Agency in the UK.

Australians, Americans, New Zealanders, Canadians and South Africans who have adopted British nationality are among those likely to be affected. There are more than half a million people born in these countries in the UK.

Airlines are concerned about the “e-borders” system. “It was not designed for dual nationals,” an industry source said. “This really will create a challenge for the authorities. As things stand [people] will not be able to leave Britain on one passport and come back on another.”

A UK Border Agency spokesman said: “With dual passports, you need to use the passport you bought the ticket with; that is the passport that is registered with Advance Passenger Information. If you don’t use that passport, then you will not be able to travel.”

Comment: why the Government's e-borders system won't work

David Millward explains why the new e-borders system could result in travel chaos for dual nationality Britons.

When David Blunkett was Home Secretary, he seemed to be very keen to “persuade” long-term British residents to become citizens.

The aim was laudable, but the method he adopted has created a bureaucratic nightmare for thousands of people and indeed the current incumbent, Jacqui Smith.

For decades a foreigner with rights of residence carried a small stamp, denoting “indefinite leave to remain”.

In plain English it meant that even without holding a British passport, aliens could live and work in Britain – as well as paying tax, in fact everything but vote.

When a passport expired, the stamp would be put in the new one as a matter of course.

This would be done by an immigration officer at the airport on presentation of the old and new passport. It was also done free of charge.

Somewhat abruptly these stamps were withdrawn from airport immigration desks.

“Indefinite leave” could still be obtained, but this entailed either posting the passport to the Home Office – and doing without out it for several weeks.

The alternative was to pay for a premium service and get the stamp by going to the Home Office in person. The current charge for something which was once free is £500.

Instead thousands of people took the cheaper and more convenient alternative of adopting British citizenship and becoming dual nationals.

Up until now the system has caused no problems, with dual nationals presenting a British passport when they come to the UK, while also complying with the immigration requirements of the country of their birth.

E-borders will now make this horrendously difficult – and some think impossible.

Of course there is a very simple solution. That would be to return the indefinite leave stamps to airports and allow immigration officers to update the overseas passports – free of charge.

This would not only make life easier for tax-paying Britons who have settled here. But it would make the e-borders computer happy as well.

[TerryLH]

I don't see a problem with this. Am I missing something?

This is how we do it for my daughter.

Book a ticket to the USA using her US passport. Exit Thailand on her Thai passport.

Enter and exit US on her US passport. Enter Thailand on her Thai passport.

She is exiting/entering each country on that countries passport. That seems to be what the requirement in the story says you must do.

Buying a ticket, checking in at the airport and clearing immigration are different processes.

So, what am I not understanding?

[taxexile]

Internet records to be stored for a year

The “e-borders” system will log passenger information according to the data provided by the airline, which in most cases will be from the non-British passport used for the outbound journey. As a result, a dual national – even if readmitted to Britain by an immigration officer on showing a British passport – could be registered as an alien with no more rights than any other tourist, and limited to six months in the country.

On a subsequent trip, such a person attempting to return to Britain could be recorded as having broken immigration law. An airline, under the “e-borders” system, would be denied permission to carry the passenger home. Even if a British passport were presented, it would have to be verified by the nearest consulate or by the Passport Agency in the UK.

Australians, Americans, New Zealanders, Canadians and South Africans who have adopted British nationality are among those likely to be affected. There are more than half a million people born in these countries in the UK.

Airlines are concerned about the “e-borders” system. “It was not designed for dual nationals,” an industry source said. “This really will create a challenge for the authorities. As things stand [people] will not be able to leave Britain on one passport and come back on another.”

A UK Border Agency spokesman said: “With dual passports, you need to use the passport you bought the ticket with; that is the passport that is registered with Advance Passenger Information. If you don’t use that passport, then you will not be able to travel.”

my understanding is that if say, my wife(thai with both a uk passport and a thai passport) leaves thailand to travel to the uk, normally she would book the ticket under her thai passport, leave thailand on her thai passport and enter the uk on her uk passport. but seeing as the ticket, and the advance passenger info. is under the thai passport then that would cause a problem when she tries to enter the uk by showing her uk passport.

the same problem would occur when returning to thailand.

to travel on her thai passport, and enter the uk on that passport would necessitate getting a visa for the uk.

am i the one who is missing something here?

[Orac]

Internet records to be stored for a year

The “e-borders” system will log passenger information according to the data provided by the airline, which in most cases will be from the non-British passport used for the outbound journey. As a result, a dual national – even if readmitted to Britain by an immigration officer on showing a British passport – could be registered as an alien with no more rights than any other tourist, and limited to six months in the country.

On a subsequent trip, such a person attempting to return to Britain could be recorded as having broken immigration law. An airline, under the “e-borders” system, would be denied permission to carry the passenger home. Even if a British passport were presented, it would have to be verified by the nearest consulate or by the Passport Agency in the UK.

Australians, Americans, New Zealanders, Canadians and South Africans who have adopted British nationality are among those likely to be affected. There are more than half a million people born in these countries in the UK.

Airlines are concerned about the “e-borders” system. “It was not designed for dual nationals,” an industry source said. “This really will create a challenge for the authorities. As things stand [people] will not be able to leave Britain on one passport and come back on another.”

A UK Border Agency spokesman said: “With dual passports, you need to use the passport you bought the ticket with; that is the passport that is registered with Advance Passenger Information. If you don’t use that passport, then you will not be able to travel.”

my understanding is that if say, my wife(thai with both a uk passport and a thai passport) leaves thailand to travel to the uk, normally she would book the ticket under her thai passport, leave thailand on her thai passport and enter the uk on her uk passport. but seeing as the ticket, and the advance passenger info. is under the thai passport then that would cause a problem when she tries to enter the uk by showing her uk passport.

the same problem would occur when returning to thailand.

to travel on her thai passport, and enter the uk on that passport would necessitate getting a visa for the uk.

am i the one who is missing something here?

Surely your wife should book the ticket using her UK passport and check in with the airline using it then present her Thai passport to immigration on the way out.

The problem here would be if Thai immigration are also linked into the airline systems and adopt a system similar to the UK/US ones.

[taxexile]

Surely your wife should book the ticket using her UK passport and check in with the airline using it then present her Thai passport to immigration on the way out.

maybe that would be the answer, do airlines look for visas when flying out of thailand?

anybody know when this system comes into operation?

[7by7]

This seems to be yet another IT cock up by the UK government. Why is it that a supposedly third world country like Thailand seem to get their systems right yet British government IT 'experts' couldn't organise a virtual p-up in a virtual brewery?

My wife and daughter will continue to do what they have been doing since recieving their British citizenship; leave and enter the UK on their British passports, leave and enter Thailand on their Thai ones. If this results in some idiot computer deciding that they have 'overstayed' then we shall have lots of fun in demanding that the British government explain in court how a British citizen can overstay in the UK.

[Orac]

Surely your wife should book the ticket using her UK passport and check in with the airline using it then present her Thai passport to immigration on the way out.

maybe that would be the answer, do airlines look for visas when flying out of thailand?

anybody know when this system comes into operation?

Not sure why there would be a visa if she has dual nationality???

[Mario2008]

Surely your wife should book the ticket using her UK passport and check in with the airline using it then present her Thai passport to immigration on the way out.

maybe that would be the answer, do airlines look for visas when flying out of thailand?

anybody know when this system comes into operation?

Yes, airlines do check for a visa when traveling out of the country. The EU (countries) give stiff panalties to airlines who carry passengers without a visa. Not to mention what is needed if you want to fly to the US.

But with dual nationailty there is no need for a visa if you trvel between the countires you hold the nationality of.

[taxexile]

if someone uses a uk passport to enter or leave thailand then there will need to be a visa in that passport.

if someone wants to enter the uk on a thai passport they will need a visa.

what the article is saying is that to travel, the same passport will have to be used both to leave (thailand) and enter the uk. that way the advance travel information received by uk immigration will match the details when the passenger arrives.

as it stands at the moment, the system makes no allowance for people travelling on two passports, using one to leave and the uk one to enter the uk.

the info. held wont match up.

like that comedy sketch, "computer says no"

[deprogrammed]

The trouble with the Uk is that the sicko ministers launch into anything that will make life more difficult for normal people - yet most of them don't have a clue about IT systems.

I recall watching phoney Tony Blair visiting a school during his bye bye tour. He asked a young student what they were doing on a PC. She said developing a website - he replied 'what is a website'

Edited April 19, 2009 by deprogrammed

[Orac]

The principal seems to be the linking of airline systems with immigration systems so whilst the Thai immigration system is not linked in there should not be a problem - all airline transactions can be done using a uk passport but thai passports can be presented to Thai immigration who sit outside the system on arrival/departure.

Thjough not relevant to this forum I would be more interested in how travel between countries that both have integrated systems ie. us to uk, would happen as all parties would be tied into the same system.

[the scouser]

I've not bothered reading most of the thread because it's all a fuss about nothing.

If someone is a British citizen, whether or not they hold another nationality, they have the right of abode in the UK. No UK immigration officer can refuse entry to the UK in respect of someone with the right of abode.

Dead simple, really. I wouldn't believe everything you read in the Torygraph.

fuc_k! You've made me break my self-imposed posting exile.

[NanLaew]

Surely your wife should book the ticket using her UK passport and check in with the airline using it then present her Thai passport to immigration on the way out.

maybe that would be the answer, do airlines look for visas when flying out of thailand?

I know this method of checking in with one passport and showing Immigration another passport works for me when headed for the US from Bangkok. They are both British passports but one contains my multi-entry Thai 'O' visa and the other my multi-entry US B1/OCS visa. As long as I use the latter at check-in upon departure from Bangkok, that satisfies the US's equivalent of eBorders and when I show the former to the Thai Immigration officer after check-in, they are satisfied. The US Immigration only ever sees the passport with their visa in it and the Thai Immigration only ever see the one with their visa. The only thing required is to show BOTH passports to the passenger pre-screeners that US airlines employ at check-in. Only once did a pre-screener have comprehension issues but her supervisor was savvy enough to see that as far as US Immigration rules applied, I was 100% legal and the check-in staff were happy as well.

[TerryLH]

"what the article is saying is that to travel, the same passport will have to be used both to leave (thailand) and enter the uk. that way the advance travel information received by uk immigration will match the details when the passenger arrives."

I believe that UK imm will get their info from the airlines, not Thai immigration. If that is the case, there shouldn't be a problem if you use the two passports as described in a couple of the above posts.

[samran]

I've not bothered reading most of the thread because it's all a fuss about nothing.

If someone is a British citizen, whether or not they hold another nationality, they have the right of abode in the UK. No UK immigration officer can refuse entry to the UK in respect of someone with the right of abode.

Dead simple, really. I wouldn't believe everything you read in the Torygraph.

fuc_k! You've made me break my self-imposed posting exile.

please break it more often scouse. Quality, not quantity is what we want (and get) from you (and only you).

Now you can buy me a beer when next in town.

[Mossfinn]

No UK immigration officer can refuse entry to the UK in respect of someone with the right of abode.

I don't think people realise that if you are a Brit Cit, these guys cannot give you a jhard time.

please break it more often scouse. Quality, not quantity is what we want (and get) from you (and only you).

I give him a kick every now and again, in the hope he will come back but if anybody wants a bridge to walk over

Moss

[the scouser]

But it's OK to give Mossfinn a hard time because, despite him being British to the core, he maintains a resolute belief that he is of the Emerald isle. His brother is a far more reasonable person to deal with (with whom to deal - just in case someone picks me up on me grandma).

Samran: It goes without saying that we shall have a beer or several when I am next in town, although whose round it is, is up for discussion.

[samran]

But it's OK to give Mossfinn a hard time because, despite him being British to the core, he maintains a resolute belief that he is of the Emerald isle. His brother is a far more reasonable person to deal with (with whom to deal - just in case someone picks me up on me grandma).

Samran: It goes without saying that we shall have a beer or several when I am next in town, although whose round it is, is up for discussion.

clearly remember it was yours

[Electra]

Irrespective of who's round it is, the system laughably known as E - borders is unworkable, unwarranted, too expensive and utterly redundant in anything remotely approximating a Western democracy.

The concept is driven by technology for which no sentient person with even the remotest comprehension of what constitutes a free democratic state has yet to find a legitimate purpose. It is as redundant as water - boarding is for the post Bush apparatchiks currently hoping to save their skins but it should be noted that it is the Americans who convinced Blair that the e- border crap was worth the candle.

Frankly, the only folk desirous of this drivel now is what passes for our security services who, similar to any gorging enfant terrible, will demand any sustenance that bloats their already inflated carcass. Parkinson's law reigns supreme here and if the latest farrago of the 8 - 12 muzzie suspected terrorists( i.e. any young male Pakistani ) now released without charge is anything to go by the state machine is really hungry to justify its budget.

Kafka meets Stalin with the Stasi as midwife.........