News on visa detentions

[Spellbound]

If 15 Brits,  (HOW MANY OTHER WESTENERS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT ?????)

http://www.edinburghnews.com/index.cfm?id=1030582003

17/SEPT 2003

15 Britons held in Thai tourist sweep

FIFTEEN Britons face up to ten years in jail and a life ban on visiting Thailand after being caught in a Thai government sweep of "unwanted" tourists.

Eleven of the 15 have been bailed, but their passports have been confiscated and four have been remanded to Bangkok special prison after being caught with illegal visa stamps in their passports.

Scores more could be arrested as police keep a watch on Thailand’s airports in the wake of the recent arrest of Hambali the Indonesian al-Qaida regional chief in the Thai provincial town of Ayudhya.

What started out as a Thai government security crackdown in the wake of a terrorist alert in South-east Asia has become a campaign against "unwanted tourists", mainly from Britain, who have been living in Thailand for considerably longer than normal holiday periods.

A diplomatic source said: "Many of those arrested were categorically not here for the sights or the culture."

And immigration police chief Lieutenant General Charnvut Vajrabhukka warned: "People in Thailand illegally will be dealt with strictly. They could spend a long time in jail." The British Embassy has issued a travel advisory to tourists following the crackdown, pointing out the only legal way of obtaining a new visa is from an Immigration Officer at a point of entry into Thailand.

Visas issued through visa shops or travel agents in Thailand "may not be legal" and offers of this type of service should be "treated with skepticism", tourists were told.

The embassy added: "There have been several arrests in the past few weeks of British nationals who have these stamps in their passports. If you are arrested on these charges you could face between one and ten years imprisonment and/or a large fine."

General Charnvut admitted that ex-immigration policemen were taking part in the fake visa ring, but he said most of those arrested had paid travel agents about £30 to take their passports abroad and re-stamp a new arrival visa every three months.

A travel agent in the Khao Sarn backpacker district of Bangkok has been arrested for forging visas.

[Bud Zumwalt]

???

Seems you Brits are in a hep of trouble. Tell me does anyone know what life is like at the Immagrant Detension Center? In America if our illegals are white they get to stay, until they actually commit a felony. Then they serve the time and are deported. Thailand is not the land of  opportunity for farang westerners.

Bud

[PK2]

Seems you Brits are in a hep of trouble.

This isn't a Brit thing. It would be silly to think it was.

[Spellbound]

This isn't a Brit thing

It Sure ain't only BRITS, maybe the UK papers are the first to report this to the general public. There must be other farangs been caught in the net ( but this is only a english speaking forum ) so where are the Swedes/Germans/Swiss/French etc ?

[PREM-R]

Spellbound Posted on Sep. 18 2003,14:54

so where are the Swedes/Germans/Swiss/French etc ?

IN JAIL?  ::

[bartender18]

I happened to go to the British embassy this week,its going to be a huge problem,there were several guys trying to sort out their problems.

 Apprently 700 had been nabbed at the Malaysian so far,there have been thousands of people using these visa services not just a few Brits

[Marshalsea]

At the Canadian consulate today I met a Canadian fellow who was arrested at Don Muang for false stamps and had just been released from Immigration detention.  He was in shock.  He'd used an agent twice to extend his tourist visa and the stamps were fakes.  His passport has been confiscated, and he said the consulate wouldn't give him a new one because charges were pending.  Immigration gave him a list of lawyers to contact, who they said were competent, however he says the one he chose off the list cannot communicate well in English.  

These unfortunate people have unwittingly (or not) used criminal agents.  However, after being arrested they've probably cooperated with Immigration authorities to identify the agents they used, otherwise they'd still be in jail.  Aside from the lone scapegoat on KaoSarn road, WHY HASN'T IMMIGRATION ARRESTED A LOT MORE OF THE THAI FACILITATORS, including those at the top of the fake visa food chain - their cronies who have been lining their pockets with the proceeds of their illegal moonlighting.  

For every farang arrested, there must be 5 Thais who have enriched themselves by acting as facilitators.  Why haven't these people been arrested and grandstanded?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

We talk of the vagaries and peculiarities of information from Thai Government sources. The erroneous information etc. IF  the British Embassy has posted Thai visa advice about the only valid visa issuance point being a Thai border entrance, that information is grossly inaccurate, and does an immense disservice to Britons coming here.

[JT65]

Im still keen to know if anyone has been nabbed from fake stamps originating in the Northern parts of Thailand such as Maesai or Maesot or Chiangsaen?

They all seem to be from Bangkok and Southern agents?

[buasaard]

Why British and other governments don't do anything?

After all thai citizens are not kept in jail for ten years, if entering illegally in Western countries.

Western government should urge reciprocity treaty on this subject.I would say that banning would be enough.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I checked the UK travel alerts, and it does say that visa's are obtainable at border points which is not true, and it indicates a 30 day permit on arrival, but fails to address the need for a confirmed outbound ticket within that 30 days. It should make it clear that the 30 days is for tourist purposes only.The advice is bound to cause extreme problems for UK citizens following that erroneous advice. UK citizen's who care should bring the matter to the attention of UK Gov't people concerned as a matter of urgency.

[MaiChai]

Thailand going puritanical. The land of bending rules has become the land of rules must be followed to the letter. Whatever next?

This is pretty serious. The precedent has been set that these visa operators are ok; they have been operating for years. Thus, there must be loads of people with dodgy stamps, I mean all those who can't be bothered to do the visa run, or don't have the time because they are working illegally (as English teachers?). There could be more people with dodgy stamps than legal ones. Are they going to round everyone up and then lock them up for up to 10 years. Yikes.

[bem]

Bangkok, September 18, 2003

Have abyone have news regarding "Unita Visa Consultant Co., Ltd.", 80/18 Soi Ekamai 22, Sukhumvit 63 Road, Bangkok.

The company is closed now.

My friend inform me that he checked and all their stamps

are original and legal.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Ohhhhhhhhh I didn't realize Mai Chai...my mistake AGAIN. The nonconforming and illegal classes MIGHT be very numerous so the Thai Government needs to amend the laws to accommodate the lawless. GIMMEE a BREAK.... the response MUST be MAI CHAI

[Spellbound]

Have abyone have news regarding "Unita Visa Consultant Co., Ltd.", 80/18 Soi Ekamai 22, Sukhumvit 63 Road, Bangkok.

The company is closed now.

Have you had the thought they have done a runner before they are Tugged by the Boys-In-Brown

[taxexile]

the response should be "enough,no more" "past transgressors think yourselves lucky,we will fine you this time and wipe the slate clean"

but i fear it wont.

[JT65]

If any of you had any doubts about Thailand not wanting foreigners in their land anymore, I guess its becoming almost impossible to ignore.  I find it hard to believe that none of this has been mentioned in the Bangkok Post or The Nation.

If it has can someone please direct me to the section outlining how many foreigners are been held due to them illegally entering the country.

[Rambutan]

Bangkok Post and the Nation are relatively crappy anyway.

So many things which they do not mention. But what they write is good.

Reading in the net gives you the info, you won't get from the papers.

 ::

[brianbrain]

Bangkok, September 18, 2003

Have abyone have news regarding "Unita Visa Consultant Co., Ltd.", 80/18 Soi Ekamai 22, Sukhumvit 63 Road, Bangkok.

The company is closed now.

My friend inform me that he checked and all their stamps

are original and legal.

I'm no expert - far from it - but I'd still advise caution. Even if you are 100% sure the "stamps are legal" (i.e. not dumb-arsed copies) the process to obtain them was not. The rules state you *must* exit and re-enter the country to obtain a new visa. Presumably, you and others like you did not.

What matters to you is can they find this out. How about entry/exit stamps, TM cards, etc. Does anyone know?

Good luck.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Brian...those who broke the immigration law did so knowingly and willingly and at considerable expense. These are the same people complaining bitterly and seeking some sort of exemption from the long standing immigration laws of Thailand, allthewhile,whining like banshees about toughening up here, and not seeing that the tightening is clearly aimed at the western non-compliant community. One brainless but proud westerner on here boasted about border walks ..no money...and he'd been doing that for 10 years. The people with honest visa's know there is nothing to fear.

[taxexile]

dr.pat pong

methinks you need a long weekend at the beach.lighten up.

most people had no idea that they were breaking the law.

in many cases they were advised by immigration officers themselves.

the thais have always been noted for their flexibility in applying rules,and i hope that flexibility will be used in sorting out this mess.

[Edward B]

Ohhhhhhhhh I didn't realize Mai Chai...my mistake AGAIN. The nonconforming and illegal classes MIGHT be very numerous so the Thai Government needs to amend the laws to accommodate the lawless. GIMMEE a BREAK.... the response MUST be MAI CHAI

Nice touch of sarcasm from the doctor!

The problem is, I'd say, is that most tourists here don't keep up to date with the current affairs, least of all check in with their embassy for the latest visa requirements etc.

" 'ello 'ello, UK embassy then is it? Rightio, just calling to see if everything is spot on regarding my tourist visa and all. Had to make do with one of those nice agents so I could extend my visa while I'm here getting blasted on Goh Pangnan. Pip pip."

[MaiChai]

Dr PP, I was not refering to your post, just the subject in general. You seem to think I have something against you; quite the contary, I don't hold grudges and am generally easy going (otherwise I would not have coped this long with Thailand). Jai yen yen (although I do confess to having my moments of frustration too).

This visa stamp thing. I did it a couple of times, but I always though it a little dodgy and decided to keep my nose clean by doing my own visa runs. My family live in Thailand and its important to be able to visit them, and anyway I was brought up to be honest.

When you think about it, even the honest agent doing the work for you is relient on some dodgy immigration officer who may or may not put it through the computer and make it look to all intents legal. Thus you never really know whether it has been put through the system properly, or whether some offical has been greedy and not processed it properly and kept the money. Thus, anyone out there who has used one of the agents must be bricking themselves as to whether their stamp was processed correctly.

The government should let these people off the hook, and really it would not be fair to black list them. Its a case of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. The government should not have allowed the visa agents to operate; they should have clamped down on them years ago. Now your average honest foreigner is taking the rap for this.

Lets hope the government authorities can be fair on this. Hopefully only those foreigners engaged in SERIOUS illegal activities will be penalised.

[brianbrain]

If any of you had any doubts about Thailand not wanting foreigners in their land anymore, I guess its becoming almost impossible to ignore.  I find it hard to believe that none of this has been mentioned in the Bangkok Post or The Nation.

If it has can someone please direct me to the section outlining how many foreigners are been held due to them illegally entering the country.

JT,

I agree with your comments re. The Bangkok Post / The Nation. However, I have to disagree with your statement that this crackdown is proof of "...Thailand not wanting foreigners". The only foreigners they are excluding are those who have broken the law.

Why should they distinguish between the "good guys" who broke the law (Fred Bloggs, et al.), and say the illegal worker from some other developing country? I know you didn't suggest this, but how can they apply this law selectively? It's either all or nothing, isn't it? With security such an issue, perhaps this is long overdue.

They are doing this for reasons of security and well-being of their country. Who can blame them? Of course it may seem particularly harsh as they've been turning a blind eye for so long, but things had to change sometime.

Sure, I'd be interested to read the figures too.

[dukdo]

After reading all the latest detention developments, my main concern is: What should I do after I have at least used one time a "visa service", but having been out to Cambodia 3 weeks ago and had no problems with re entry, but still not sure whether I have a fake stamp in my passport.

Is there an official way to check my stamps, without being in hot water? Have to leave again for visa run before end of the month.

Is there an official stance of Thai immigration for those who have used visa services in the past or do they want to criminalize them all?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Gimmee a break Taxexile...they ALL knew. Why not comment on the punter ...one of many ...10 yrs border hpping on NO VISA

[Bob Chittie]

Gimmee a break Taxexile...they ALL knew. Why not comment on the punter ...one of many ...10 yrs border hpping on NO VISA

Call me naive, stupid or what you will, but I used an agency a number of time a couple years ago and I honestly did not consider it to be illegal.  I do think a strict warning would be in order, rather than arresting people who may have made an honest mistake.

[taxexile]

dr.pat pong.

10 year border hopper and such types,sure, legitemize them by changing the regulations and ensuring compliance.

but for many others, i think an amnesty would be in order,especially seeing as the lawmakers were just as much at fault as the lawbreakers.

[Axel]

dr.pat pong.

10 year border hopper and such types,sure, legitemize them by changing the regulations and ensuring compliance.

but for many others, i think an amnesty would be in order,especially seeing as the lawmakers were just as much at fault as the lawbreakers.

I do support the idea. As serious as it looks the concerned embassies should get involved, perhaps just bailing out stupidity. There have been lots of ads in the English newspapers offering "Visa-services" making it look quite genuine to a lot of naive people who sounded happy with the "service" received and (maybe) thought it to be legal, "pay a fee and save the work/travel for yourself". Not knowing to be wrong does not protect you from punishment, but give the people the favour of doubt. (In dubio pro reo).

To cut it short, the concerned should be helped with a very stern warning (I am not talking about the 10-years guys) and than NO MORE. If a visa-run must be done, do it in person, if a visa must be extented GO IN PERSON. I do not want to sound like a teacher, but said it before "Never f... with immigration laws."

[pschef]

This visa stamp thing. I did it a couple of times, but I always though it a little dodgy and decided to keep my nose clean by doing my own visa runs. My family live in Thailand and its important to be able to visit them, and anyway I was brought up to be honest.

When you think about it, even the honest agent doing the work for you is relient on some dodgy immigration officer who may or may not put it through the computer and make it look to all intents legal. Thus you never really know whether it has been put through the system properly, or whether some offical has been greedy and not processed it properly and kept the money. Thus, anyone out there who has used one of the agents must be bricking themselves as to whether their stamp was processed correctly.

Lets hope the government authorities can be fair on this. Hopefully only those foreigners engaged in SERIOUS illegal activities will be penalised.

Me too, I live in a small village up country far from anywhere. Last year they closed the border to Burma as you all remember? I and some friends And I used a visa agent in Bangkok to renew our visa, he promised nothing illegal. I wonder if the one time stamp is real or fabricated. It was many visas ago, and nowhere never picked up by Thai Immigration officers. So what if they wanted to discriminate against me? Who knows? As some moderates say, let’s have some kind of amnesty. Come on Dr, PP lighten up. Some people really believed they were inside the law. Okay in retrospect its easy to criticize.