Service by one staff at Australian Embassy

[Lavarack]

I went into the Australian Embassy recently to get an Australian Passport for my 2 year old son. Spoke to a thai woman at the front desk and presented all the appropriate forms which I obtained from the DFAT website for a passport for those citizens living abroad. My son was born in Thailand and has dual citizenship. When I presented the forms I was told by the thai lady that I need an Australian citizen to garantee that he/she has known him for 12 months to prove identity. I had the forms signed by his thai doctor who has been looking after him since birth as stated as one of the people who can do on the forms. We began to argue as she said this is wrong and it must be an Australian citizen. I don't know any aussies in thai who have known him for 12 months.

Anyway we continued to argue about this point for about 5 minutes then I asked to speak to an Australian who may be able to help me she replied that the Australian working there do not handle the general inquiries or applications. I requested to speak to an aussie anyway. She said I was being rude and I can be arrested for insulting a thai government official and if I didn't leave she would call security and have me arrested.

Correct me if I am wrong but inside the confines of the Australian Embassy isn't that considered Australian territory. Are the people in there not working for the Australian Government and Australian taxpayer like myself. When was a law passed in Australia that you can not argue your point with a person working for the Australian government? I am sure all aussies have done so at some point. When did the thai authorities get the power to arrest someone for arguing a point with an Australian government employee on Australian territory.

I have found thai government employees more helpful than those at the Australian Embassy.

[samuibeachcomber]

I guess you came across a thai with too much self importance,and of course she's talking BS with regards to insulting a thai in thailand,as you said she's for all intent and purpose on australian soil working for the aussie govt.

You should be able to find an aussie citizen in a bar in nana plaza.For the price of a few beers for a signature.

[t.s]

I guess you came across a thai with too much self importance,and of course she's talking BS with regards to insulting a thai in thailand,as you said she's for all intent and purpose on australian soil working for the aussie govt.

You should be able to find an aussie citizen in a bar in nana plaza.For the price of a few beers for a signature.

not to mention that it is highly unlikely a Thai government Official would be employed at the Australian Embassy. It is unlikely that she is an Aus "official" either.

I would have pushed it.

i have had similar issues at the Canadian embassy, where contract staff have proved unable to answer my questions and it was quite difficult escalating to an actual consul. (who immediately sorted my issue) I was never threatened with arrest though.

[flying]

Funny story but sad too.

It is the same at the US embassy

All Thai guards whose English was worse than my Thai

Funny though the guards.................Is TL too small time?

I mean I always thought of the US Embassy in the same way you think of the Aussie Embassy.

I would have guessed a marine or two at the gates? Is that not how it is in other countries or no?

A sanctuary of sorts. I mean if you had cause to run up to the gate there is a good chance you would not get in during an emergency.

Edited April 30, 2009 by flying

[samuibeachcomber]

I guess you came across a thai with too much self importance,and of course she's talking BS with regards to insulting a thai in thailand,as you said she's for all intent and purpose on australian soil working for the aussie govt.

You should be able to find an aussie citizen in a bar in nana plaza.For the price of a few beers for a signature.

not to mention that it is highly unlikely a Thai government Official would be employed at the Australian Embassy. It is unlikely that she is an Aus "official" either.

I would have pushed it.

i have had similar issues at the Canadian embassy, where contract staff have proved unable to answer my questions and it was quite difficult escalating to an actual consul. (who immediately sorted my issue) I was never threatened with arrest though.

I would have more than pushed it.every govt. official,and that includes thais working at the embassy are working there on behalf of the australian people and are servants of the people.This thai lady needs to be put in her place.

[harrry]

I would wirite to the Australian Ombudsman giving the facts as you stated. I would then send a copy of this letter to the Australian Embassy with a letter asking for an appointment with the Consol to discuss the complaint and giving a time period to respond. Keep the response or non response and forward it to the Ombudsman. I think you will get a reasonably fast response.

[marsteele]

I think you found a thai who thought that inside those walls you are still in thailand under thai authority. Maybe she forgot there she is on Australian soil working for the Australian Government and the Australian people being paid Australian wages by Australian people. You are not the farang shit in there she is the foriegner in there but I guess she forgot that.

[marsteele]

Funny story but sad too.

It is the same at the US embassy

All Thai guards whose English was worse than my Thai

Funny though the guards.................Is TL too small time?

I mean I always thought of the US Embassy in the same way you think of the Aussie Embassy.

I would have guessed a marine or two at the gates? Is that not how it is in other countries or no?

A sanctuary of sorts. I mean if you had cause to run up to the gate there is a good chance you would not get in during an emergency.

Yes I know at the US embassy in Australia the security staff are American servicemen not sure if marines but they wear american uniforms.

[flying]

Yes I know at the US embassy in Australia the security staff are American servicemen not sure if marines but they wear american uniforms.

Yes same all over Europe too I believe.

Does make you wonder......

I cannot imagine in an emergency trying to explain to these guys why you need in right NOW TIT once again?

[harrry]

Guarantor of applicant

To help us identify the person applying for an Australian passport, we need someone (a "guarantor") to complete Section 12 of the application form.

The guarantor must:

be 18 years of age or over;

have known the applicant for at least 12 months or since birth;

not be related to the applicant by birth, marriage, de facto or same sex relationship, nor live at the applicant's address;

possess a current (unexpired) passport that was issued with at least two years' validity; or be currently employed in one of the approved professional or occupational groups. Details of these groups can be obtained from the Australian diplomatic or consular missions where the application will be lodged;

endorse the back of one photograph in English by writing "This is a true photograph of (applicant's full name)" and sign in black ink.

Is from pasports.gov.au

I am pretty sure that the person may come from one of the approved list and do not have to be australiand citizens if they are.

Any ombudsmun complaint would probably need to be on the process and refusal to allow you to esculate and the rudeness and threat rather than the giving or not of the opassport.

[samuibeachcomber]

More often than not its the attitude displayed towards the public in general by govt. employees, whether they be thai or aussies that i find galling.

I n regards to a witness having to an aussie is a bit silly when living outside australia,and in the OP's case may be difficult to comply,but when do govts. ever make it easy?

[Farma]

Slightly different circumstances. Renewal rather than initial issue.

My sons Australian passport was renewed in Bangkok a couple of years ago. After explaining we didn’t have an independent Australian citizen to sign the application they accepted his Thai headmaster as guarantor.

[cmsally]

Guarantor of applicant

To help us identify the person applying for an Australian passport, we need someone (a "guarantor") to complete Section 12 of the application form.

The guarantor must:

be 18 years of age or over;

have known the applicant for at least 12 months or since birth;

not be related to the applicant by birth, marriage, de facto or same sex relationship, nor live at the applicant's address;

possess a current (unexpired) passport that was issued with at least two years' validity; or be currently employed in one of the approved professional or occupational groups. Details of these groups can be obtained from the Australian diplomatic or consular missions where the application will be lodged;

endorse the back of one photograph in English by writing "This is a true photograph of (applicant's full name)" and sign in black ink.

Is from pasports.gov.au

I am pretty sure that the person may come from one of the approved list and do not have to be australiand citizens if they are.

Any ombudsmun complaint would probably need to be on the process and refusal to allow you to esculate and the rudeness and threat rather than the giving or not of the opassport.

For a UK passport this can be a Thai citizen (unless it has changed in the last few years). I suspect Australian would be the same.

The Thai person signing should have some sort of recognised occupation and state where they are employed. I have in the past used friends (all Thais) that are teachers/doctors/police and never had a problem or been questioned about it.

[samran]

Guarantor of applicant

To help us identify the person applying for an Australian passport, we need someone (a "guarantor") to complete Section 12 of the application form.

The guarantor must:

be 18 years of age or over;

have known the applicant for at least 12 months or since birth;

not be related to the applicant by birth, marriage, de facto or same sex relationship, nor live at the applicant's address;

possess a current (unexpired) passport that was issued with at least two years' validity; or be currently employed in one of the approved professional or occupational groups. Details of these groups can be obtained from the Australian diplomatic or consular missions where the application will be lodged;

endorse the back of one photograph in English by writing "This is a true photograph of (applicant's full name)" and sign in black ink.

Is from pasports.gov.au

I am pretty sure that the person may come from one of the approved list and do not have to be australiand citizens if they are.

Any ombudsmun complaint would probably need to be on the process and refusal to allow you to esculate and the rudeness and threat rather than the giving or not of the opassport.

you were treated shoddily.

just put in my daughters passport application yesterday, and am pretty certain that the guarantor can be either an Australian citizen OR a non-Australian from the list of pre-approved proffessions.

I'd ring the embassy and ask to speak to the head of the consular section, starting out by asking 'if' it is OK to use a the doctor (as you have). When the inevitable 'yes' comes back, I would then tell your story. Once you have your passport, I'd then lodge a formal complaint.

It seems to me that the Australian passport staff seem to take great delight if they can turn you away at least once.

We were caught out too, but for another reason. Despite having just proven that I am the father of my child (so she could get citizenship via decsent from me), the passport office sent my wife away (who handed in the application) due to the fact that my Australian ID did not include all my middle names.

Thats right, despite having odles of ID, because my middle name (Samran), which is on my birth certificate, but was not on any of my photo ID (passport, drivers license) I had to come back with a statuatory declaration saying that I was indeed the same person as all my ID stated.

Then and only then they could process my daughters passport.

This despite the fact that I had used EXACTLY the same ID for getting my first daughters passport a few years ago.

So you are not alone. But, in my experience, I'd get the paperwork sorted and then hit them with a complaint. More fun and less riding on it then!

Edited April 30, 2009 by samran

[Lavarack]

Guarantor of applicant

To help us identify the person applying for an Australian passport, we need someone (a "guarantor") to complete Section 12 of the application form.

The guarantor must:

be 18 years of age or over;

have known the applicant for at least 12 months or since birth;

not be related to the applicant by birth, marriage, de facto or same sex relationship, nor live at the applicant's address;

possess a current (unexpired) passport that was issued with at least two years' validity; or be currently employed in one of the approved professional or occupational groups. Details of these groups can be obtained from the Australian diplomatic or consular missions where the application will be lodged;

endorse the back of one photograph in English by writing "This is a true photograph of (applicant's full name)" and sign in black ink.

Is from pasports.gov.au

I am pretty sure that the person may come from one of the approved list and do not have to be australiand citizens if they are.

Any ombudsmun complaint would probably need to be on the process and refusal to allow you to esculate and the rudeness and threat rather than the giving or not of the opassport.

Yes complied with all the above had his Thai doctor who has know him and treated him for the 20 months and also lives in the same village and sees him almost daily at play. YES A DOCTOR FITS THIS CATEGORY. Even faxed the paperwork to the embassy prior to attending in person to ensure it was in order prior to attending as it was. Chiang Rai is long way from Bangkok to travel to find out there is an error. Would be nice if there was somewhere in the north that you could do these things but alas 950 kms of travel.

Anyway why do we have to deal with thais at the australian embassy who apparently have no idea and still think they can look down on you in your own embassy and treat you just like another farang. As one person said (marsteele) she is the farang inside the embassy not me.

[phaethon]

Q:

Who Is Running The Australian Embassy?

A:

[Sabum]

Ya Canadian embassy the same, I needed important information and advice and a THAI person answered and insisted her information was correct. Due to her misinformation I landed up breaking the law... unbelievable, she gave me completely false information, I have never seen an actual Canadian at the Canadian embassy.

[h90]

It is the same shi*t in the Austrian (yes Austrian not Australian) embassy. Usually on the phone or when I am there in person I speak the strongest dialect and only German (not one word english) (I don't have much dialect, so I really need to concentrate on it) and formulate my usual halve page long sentences.

That than causes the girls (which are pretty rude, I don't know in which cave the embassy found these ugly Thais) to run to a Austrian for help as they don't understand what I want.

They are than very friendly.

[h90]

Ya Canadian embassy the same, I needed important information and advice and a THAI person answered and insisted her information was correct. Due to her misinformation I landed up breaking the law... unbelievable, she gave me completely false information, I have never seen an actual Canadian at the Canadian embassy.

The former Austrian at Austrian embassy were known to spend more time at Patpong than at the embassy.

Later Austria sent female staff and there is always one Austrian lady supervising when I was the last times there. Hope it did not change back as I need to go there again soon.

[Sabum]

It is the same shi*t in the Austrian (yes Austrian not Australian) embassy. Usually on the phone or when I am there in person I speak the strongest dialect and only German (not one word english) (I don't have much dialect, so I really need to concentrate on it) and formulate my usual halve page long sentences.

That than causes the girls (which are pretty rude, I don't know in which cave the embassy found these ugly Thais) to run to a Austrian for help as they don't understand what I want.

They are than very friendly.

HOLY CRAP you just gave me the answer to my problem. If I ever have a problem I need the embassy for I will only speak FRENCH and pretend I don't speak english.

[chiangmaibruce]

We used the Thai doctor who delivered mini-chiangmaibruce, and we were told at the time this was the most common approach for people in our situation (I think by an aussie guy working in the consular section).

I would immediately lodge a politely-worded complaint with the Australian ambassador in BKK.

She needs to watch those John Cleese customer-service videos - the entire series by the sound of it.

[samran]

credit where credit is due, I just received a phone call from the passports office head at the embassy (a nice lady named Melita, seems she is permanent DFAT staff). As i expressed my disappointment at the time with the holdup of application my daughters application cause of my missing middle name on my ID, she rang to say that she was the reason behind the hold up and she aplogised for making us supply additional paperwork. This call was totally out of the blue!

She did say the girl at the front desk is new, so it stands to chance that she wasn't quite up with the regs.

In anycase, you could do worse than asking the swichboard to put you through to Melita, and see how she may be able to help. She was very nice and apologetic to me.

Further credit. The passport application has been approved (1 day) and will be available for pick up early next week. That will be less than a 5 day turn around, which is amazing given all passports are issued in OZ. This is in addition to the expedited citizenship via decent application. All up, the entire process can take a month. In our case, it will be less than 2 weeks fron starting the citizenship application to having passport in hand.

So in my case, thumbs up to the OZ embassy, and here's hoping they can help the OP

Edited April 30, 2009 by samran

[Maizefarmer]

I went into the Australian Embassy recently to get an Australian Passport for my 2 year old son. Spoke to a thai woman at the front desk and presented all the appropriate forms which I obtained from the DFAT website for a passport for those citizens living abroad. My son was born in Thailand and has dual citizenship. When I presented the forms I was told by the thai lady that I need an Australian citizen to garantee that he/she has known him for 12 months to prove identity. I had the forms signed by his thai doctor who has been looking after him since birth as stated as one of the people who can do on the forms. We began to argue as she said this is wrong and it must be an Australian citizen. I don't know any aussies in thai who have known him for 12 months.

Anyway we continued to argue about this point for about 5 minutes then I asked to speak to an Australian who may be able to help me she replied that the Australian working there do not handle the general inquiries or applications. I requested to speak to an aussie anyway. She said I was being rude and I can be arrested for insulting a thai government official and if I didn't leave she would call security and have me arrested.

Correct me if I am wrong but inside the confines of the Australian Embassy isn't that considered Australian territory. Are the people in there not working for the Australian Government and Australian taxpayer like myself. When was a law passed in Australia that you can not argue your point with a person working for the Australian government? I am sure all aussies have done so at some point. When did the thai authorities get the power to arrest someone for arguing a point with an Australian government employee on Australian territory.

I have found thai government employees more helpful than those at the Australian Embassy.

The inaccuarcy in what she said illustrates the point - bad communication between you guys from start to finish.

Put the doc's in sealed envelope, add a letter explaining what happened - ask for an explination (regards what has to be done to resolve the problem and also regards how you feel you were deal't with by the "official") and send the whole lot addressed to the Ambassador (in name - who is Paul Grigson) by courier so it has to be signed for - then wait to see what response you get.

Sadly, consular officials can be a snotty bunch. The Brit consular section staff are just as bad - they forget they are public servants employed on our expense/taxes to help us, and not withstanding the rubbish they do indeed have to put up with on occassion, if consular section staff were a little more answerable on the spot for how they treat folk on occassion, I think they would go about things a little differently to say the least.

On a slightly different point regards UK visa appeals: procedure may be changing, after concern has been expressed by officials regards the amount of applications which get granted to applicants on appeal i.e. concerned that so many of their initial decisions denying "leave to enter" are getting challenged and overturned.

While the figures for total visa applications, and those given and denied are published somewhere on one of the UK gov websites, does anyone know what the figures are for amount of appeals lodged and the subsequent success rate? - just curious.

[TAWP]

Atleast it sounds like getting a passport at my embassy for my son (dual citizen) was easier than for many of you. No need for guarantors or anything like that. Especially not when he was a Thai passport already. And the turn-around for both Passport and a Visa for his Thai passport (double safety) and Visa for the wife was one week...

[samran]

Atleast it sounds like getting a passport at my embassy for my son (dual citizen) was easier than for many of you. No need for guarantors or anything like that. Especially not when he was a Thai passport already. And the turn-around for both Passport and a Visa for his Thai passport (double safety) and Visa for the wife was one week...

the problem with the Australian process (not the embassy itself per se) are compounded by the fact that citizenship and passports are handled by two seperate depatments.

1) The department of immigration handle your citizenship application for your child. One set of criteria to prove that your child is an Australian citizen

2) Passports Australia handle passports.

The evidence required by both departments is similar, but not exactly the same and it does double up. It also creates the absurd situation where two offices right next to each other at the embassy don't talk to each other. In the OP's case, someone had to have vouched in thr past that the child was who he was to get the citizenship, but then you require that same piece of evidence again to get the passport.

In my case, immigration accepted the fact that I was the father when I applied to register my daughter as an Australian citizen, but the office 10 steps away (and one day later), due to a missing middle name, needed extra evidence that I was the father!

The fact that one government department has accepted your bonafides doesn't mean that the other one will! Silly isn't it?

[TAWP]

Atleast it sounds like getting a passport at my embassy for my son (dual citizen) was easier than for many of you. No need for guarantors or anything like that. Especially not when he was a Thai passport already. And the turn-around for both Passport and a Visa for his Thai passport (double safety) and Visa for the wife was one week...

the problem with the Australian process (not the embassy itself per se) are compounded by the fact that citizenship and passports are handled by two seperate depatments.

1) The department of immigration handle your citizenship application for your child. One set of criteria to prove that your child is an Australian citizen

2) Passports Australia handle passports.

The evidence required by both departments is similar, but not exactly the same and it does double up. It also creates the absurd situation where two offices right next to each other at the embassy don't talk to each other. In the OP's case, someone had to have vouched in thr past that the child was who he was to get the citizenship, but then you require that same piece of evidence again to get the passport.

In my case, immigration accepted the fact that I was the father when I applied to register my daughter as an Australian citizen, but the office 10 steps away (and one day later), due to a missing middle name, needed extra evidence that I was the father!

The fact that one government department has accepted your bonafides doesn't mean that the other one will! Silly isn't it?

Crikey!

(Hope I spelled it correctly.)

Edited April 30, 2009 by TAWP

[astral]

I assume you are Australian, why can't you sign for him??

Next time ask to see the Australian consul.

Thai staff are not unusual for dealing with Thai's who are making visa applications,

but the main staff will be Australian.

[mucker]

MaizeFarmer, I've always found the older English gentleman at the British consular section to be very polite, friendly and efficient. Luckily I haven't had to deal with the Thai staff there.

[Lavarack]

I assume you are Australian, why can't you sign for him??

Next time ask to see the Australian consul.

Thai staff are not unusual for dealing with Thai's who are making visa applications,

but the main staff will be Australian.

I parent or relative can not sign it has to be an independent person. same as when you got your passport and I presume you have one

[MiG16]

Im editing the topic title to reflect the discussion a bit more

please bear in mind that we cannot make across the board accusations about any firm or organisations, as we run the risk of libel suit. Please refrain from that direction.

In this case I see the issue was with one staff at the embassy. thanks everyone

I notice that you are also getting a lot of useful advice on how to go about getting a gaurantor. which is visa related. let me know if you want it moved to the visa section.