Is Your Dog Aggressive?

[Jose]

From Science Daily:

Study shows that factors that cause aggressiveness in dogs are:

1) first-time dog ownership;

2) failure to subject the dog to basic obedience training; (*guilty)

3) spoiling or pampering the dog; (*guilty)

4) not using physical punishment when it is required; (*guilty)

5) buying a dog as a present, as a guard dog or on impulse;

6) spaying female dogs; (*guilty)

7) leaving the dog with a constant supply of food; (*guilty)

8) spending very little time with the dog in general and on its walks. (*guilty)

(* My score: score 6/8 - How about you?)

jose '-)

[phaethon]

Lots of statistics and discussion on US dog attacks here: http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

Any dog can be conditioned- deliberately or otherwise - to attack, and the likelihood of an individual animal attacking cannot be reliably predicted just from breed, but year after year over half the fatalities in the US are accounted for by just two breeds.

[surayu]

well my dog kind of "freaks out" only when he see me browsing pages on ThaiVisa, i am not sure why?

[bina]

non of what was listed is a cause. they are reasons behind having a dog become aggressive but not actually a 'cause'. being a first time dog owner means that u may not understand your dog's body language so u make mistakes when feeding/ training . lack of training is not a cause but certainly can enhance allowing a dog to get away with bad behavior. not using physical punishment? with some dogs that enhances aggression. buying a dog does not make it aggressive. spaying a female doesnt make her aggressive, nor does not spaying her. having a litter with her and bothering her might make her act aggressively to protect her litter however.

sorry not impressed with the list nor with the article. the only thing i agreed with is that many bad behavior patterns are the fault of the owner/mistake made by the owner. but that is nothing new. especially with breeds that have a highly developed aggression/protection factor in them.

sorry to ruin your fun jose, but it reminds me of a cartoon once cant remember by whom.. a pic of a dog driving a car with his owner holding the dog's leash and a police stopping them. the owner says, but officer, im holding his leash and he has his liscense.

whatever,

bina

israel

[AjarnChan]

non of what was listed is a cause. they are reasons behind having a dog become aggressive but not actually a 'cause'. being a first time dog owner means that u may not understand your dog's body language so u make mistakes when feeding/ training . lack of training is not a cause but certainly can enhance allowing a dog to get away with bad behavior. not using physical punishment? with some dogs that enhances aggression. buying a dog does not make it aggressive. spaying a female doesnt make her aggressive, nor does not spaying her. having a litter with her and bothering her might make her act aggressively to protect her litter however.

sorry not impressed with the list nor with the article. the only thing i agreed with is that many bad behavior patterns are the fault of the owner/mistake made by the owner. but that is nothing new. especially with breeds that have a highly developed aggression/protection factor in them.

sorry to ruin your fun jose, but it reminds me of a cartoon once cant remember by whom.. a pic of a dog driving a car with his owner holding the dog's leash and a police stopping them. the owner says, but officer, im holding his leash and he has his liscense.

whatever,

bina

israel

Hi bina, sorry but I have to vehemently disagree with "spaying a female doesnt make her aggressive". Of course it does, it radically alters the dog's hormone levels and from personal experience does directly lead to aggression. I have also seen similar 'masculisation' [is there such a word?] occur in women who had hysterectomies, and of course during and after the menopause ;{ ~ in fact right now I would take the Dog over my aging Thai wife anyday

So far as keeping a Thai Dog relatively sane, I find the only answer is Walks ! I make a point of taking the family dog out for at least half an hour practically every single day; usually in the evening. I make sure she can run free at some point, but also 'train' her on the lead and make a point of asserting control now and then. It works in her case. However without this small effort by me 'Pepsi' is sometimes violent and aggressive beyond belief. She especially dislikes the large trucks that pass in front of her Shop House and does her damndest to chase them away if not calmed.

The walks are also good for me, and help my general health. I cycle to the shop house from my home, walk the dog, and 'fuss' over her for a while. After that she goes back to guarding the shop, with only cats for company. From a Western/British perspective the way Thais treat dogs is semi-awful, but there are local customs and logical reasons; in my view they barely treat each other much better; or us for that matter. Callous, Indifferent & Insensitive is a lot more apt than 'Land of Smiles' most of the time; or am I getting jaded after 11 'wonderful' years in paradise?

Edited May 2, 2009 by AjarnChan

[Jose]

This reminds me of the nature vs nurture argument. It's turning out now to be both.

So far as keeping a Thai Dog relatively sane, I find the only answer is Walks !

I agree vehemently. This is a prerequisite for sanity, for both man and his best friend.

'Pepsi' is sometimes violent and aggressive beyond belief. She especially dislikes the large trucks that pass in front of her Shop House and does her damndest to chase them away if not calmed.

I feel the same way about those truck-driving thugs. More than once I've chased one after being run off the road. Sometimes I think I should be tested for rabies.

Callous, Indifferent & Insensitive is a lot more apt than 'Land of Smiles' most of the time; or am I getting jaded after 11 'wonderful' years in paradise?

No, you are not jaded, AjarnChan - you have come to the point where you now see past the (generally speaking) superficial smiles. Having said that, there are a few Thai gems to be found out there - but alas, they are usually not where falangs live.

[bina]

of course u should walk your dog; all animals need excercise as do us humans, staying cooped up all day with no outlet means excess energy funneled in the wrong way sometimes.

spaying, i have yet to see any study anywhere about enhanced aggression among spayed females and hormonal problems; unlike intact males who do have enhanced aggression when NOT neutered, AFTER they have bred a female, for instance. it seems to make most females more phlegmatic. and most women i know do not have problems after hysterectomies as often they get hormonal treatments anyway to prevent osteoporosis.

if PEPSI is sometimes aggressive and violent beyond belief, then u had best check your and your family's way of working with her, and what, yes, her breed is. a working dog, guard type dog, of course will have more tendency to aggression. but aggression doesnt mean violence if worked with properly. and if PEPSI is chasing cars, then that is her hunting/chasing instinct coming out in her and u have to work with her as it becomes a conditioned response.

as far as changes among thai, i suspect that all over the world people are becoming more aggressive, less trusting, less friendly, and less naive as they are exposed more and more to violence random and planned, and also, when u live in paradise for a while, u begin to see the 'real' life and not the 'magazine' style of life. i live in a war oreiented country and i can tell u that even among children (i worked for almost 10 yrs in a childs' amusement park)i see violence and aggression in younger and younger children and among their parents, what we didnt see even 10 yrs ago, a noticeable difference.

bina

israel

and perhaps your 'aging thai wife' needs hormonal treatments.

[BigSnake]

Not guilty, dog not aggressive. I do find it very strange that when I am out biking or walking and an aggressvie dog approach me(ready to attack) and I have my big stick/rock and ready to kill it the owner seem shock, love and have nothing what against animals, but if attack if will take it out if I can.

[Jose]

I do find it very strange that when I am out biking or walking and an aggressvie dog approach me(ready to attack) and I have my big stick/rock and ready to kill it the owner seem shock, love and have nothing what against animals, but if attack if will take it out if I can.

I do find it very strange that you carry your own personal big stick/rock with you. Life must be very dangerous where you live!

Hint: leave your big stick/rock at home, and life will be a lot more peaceful for you.

[Nienke]

Eeeeerrrrrr, Bina, haven't you read the links I've placed before on this forum? :

The results of the study suggest that spayed female dogs tend to be more aggressive

toward their owners and to strangers than intact females, but that these effects of spaying

on behavior appear to be highly breed-specific. Contrary to popular belief, the study

found little evidence that castration was an effective treatment for aggressive behavior in

male dogs, and may exacerbate other behavioral problems. Further research will be

needed to clarify the relationship between age of spaying/neutering and these apparent

effects on behavior.

And on page 8, charts of:

SPAYED FEMALES ARE MORE AGGRESSIVE TOWARD PEOPLE and

SPAYED FEMALES ARE MORE FEARFUL AND SENSITIVE TO TOUCH which can result in aggressive behavior

page 11, charts of:

SPAYED/NEUTERED DOGS ARE MORE AGGRESSIVE TOWARD PEOPLE AND OTHER DOGS and

SPAYED/NEUTERED DOGS ARE MORE FEARFUL AND SENSITIVE TO HANDLING and again which can result in aggressive behavior

and

SPAYED/NEUTERED DOGS ROLL IN & EAT FECES MORE OFTEN yikes!!!!!!

SUMMARY

For most behaviors, spaying/neutering was associated with worse behavior, contrary to conventional wisdom.A few behaviors (e.g., energy level, urine marking) were reduced in spayed/neutered dogs.

The effects of spaying/neutering are often specific to certain breeds and are not always equivalent between sexes.

... read further: http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Duffy2.pdf

[Jose]

SPAYED/NEUTERED DOGS ROLL IN & EAT FECES MORE OFTEN yikes!!!!!!

Ahhhh... That explains it...

[Jose]

SPAYED FEMALES ARE MORE AGGRESSIVE TOWARD PEOPLE

SPAYED/NEUTERED DOGS ARE MORE AGGRESSIVE TOWARD PEOPLE AND OTHER DOGS

A perfect example of this phenomenon would be our local Vet's next-door female dog, who was perfectly placid until she was spayed about three months ago, and now barks and growls ferociously at every dog that visits the veterinarian clinic.

[elfe]

nienke, there are studies who came to exactly opposite/different results.

from my personal experience with my 90 dogs (spayed and intact) and other dogs, and friends' dogs etc i cannot see a pattern which your link gives at all.

there are any behaviours and aggressions, also rolling in dirt etc in both spayed and unspayed/castrated. i got many thai mixes and many kinds of breeds but cannot make it out what i read above. for me this is utter bs. on the contrary, it seems it does not change the behaviour of females at all (the behaviour changes by itself naturally as the dog grows up and has changes in lifecircumstances etc) and it made each and every male less aggressive here and they can live together in packs which would be impossible for many without being castrated. for behaviour towards people it did not change anything at all. i cannot understand why you are always at hand when it comes to condemn castrations/spaying. which is extremely necessary to prevent misery for dogs and in fact makes them more calm and content - especially males who really suffer when a female in heat is in the area!!!

[Jose]

My post was meant tongue-in-cheek to humour so-called "scientific studies". Most White Papers are put together by academics who may have little or no experience in the real practical world.

My favourite example is where one of the Top 50 Scientific Discoveries of 2008 was that dogs experience jealousy and pride. Anyone with two dogs or more would have taken this for granted for the past 10,000 years.

So when it comes to choosing between anecdotal canine experience from someone such as Elfe, or some research paper printed in some illustrious publication, Elfe would win hands down in my judgement.

Still, there is something about some spayed female dogs becoming more hostile after their op...

[bina]

emperical evidence here proves the opposite. every male and female except for my two lhasa and three poodles here on the kibbutz are all either spayed or neutered as we pay less for the liscense if spayed/neutered and ive not noticed any changes in temperament. and we have almost 200 dogs not counting a few strays that end up sticking around. although, it is true that some of the males were castrated after they had learned that they were indeed males and had reached sexual maturity. therefore their habits didnt change. but the young neutered males it did make a difference as all the dogs here range free, and almost no fights except among one or two (one is rhodesian ridgeback, the other is a jack russel)and usually because there are interloper dogs on the kibbutz. people like to throw their pets away here thinkng that we will adopt them.

i would say that just my row of houses -40 families- 95% have at least one dog, several of us have two. (the entire kibbutz has an awfully large amount of dogs, mostly toy/miniature size, a few larger breeds and mixes. my boxers always caused a row with everyone, now have the lhasas.) the only neighborhood that doesnt seem to have any dogs is the older peoples' area. they mostly have cats.

i know that here, due to religious conditions, many vets will not neuter a male unless they have tried 'chemical ' neutering first to acertain if indeed the neuter will change the male's personality, or if it is not a chemical problem but lack of training etc. only then will the vet castrate, if the male dog responds well to the chemical castration.

nienke it did say breed specific. i wonder why that is?

again, it is rather like owning a stallion as opposed to a gelding. i would always choose a gelding for riding and safety and quiet although there are geldings with horrible personalities or horribly trained also. but a stallion, just cause of his hormones, is already a potential problem unless very very well trained and worked with from the very beginning. (only knew one such stallion, named galil, and he was a gentleman even when 'working')and later castration doesnt really change much UNLESS the stallion undergoes behavior modification-unlearning, BUT it does quiet a stallion down a bit. same as for a male dog.

at any rate, working with aggressive dogs doesnt mean u have to become aggressive. just assertive. there is a difference.

at present moment lilee is in heat and foofoo has lost the use of his larger head like a majority of males of any species... and his latent aggression is showing up as he is again being nastier with 'intruders' even of the human species... a sort of regression back to the way he was three years ago...

bina

israel

[Nienke]

Yes, Bina, the study says "that these effects of spaying on behavior appear to be highly breed-specific", which I have quoted above as well. And what people can read when they actually open teh link and read all of the study.

That there are people who do not WANT to believe these studies, that's up to them.

In my own experience I have seen dogs not becoming calmer of spay/neutering or in a few cases even became more aggressive. When studying about dog behavior this aspect came forward as well; that it is possible that spay/neuter may have the opposite effect with what one tries to establish. Other dog behaviorists around the world have experienced also in some cases an increase in stead of a decrease in aggression after spay/neuter.

So, the results of this study doesn't surprise me.

Furthermore, spay/neuter at an early age can give increased chances on serious long-term physical problems for the animal. As long as I'm able to keep my dogs restrained/seperated during heat cycles, for me it is not worth the risk.

I am a strong advocate of keeping dogs intact, as I believe that everything they got by nature is there for a reason and has an important function in keeping the dogs healthy. Next to keeping them intact, I believe that dogs should be fed a species appropriate diet and keep all chemical toxins (vaccines, ab's, tick/flea treaments etc etc) to a minimum or provide a much more healthy alternative there where possible.

Having said that, I greatly respect the urge to spay/neuter by those who rescue dogs. And I always have supported this where it concerns strays and owned dogs of people who are unwilling to keep their dogs restrained when the female is in heat. Not because I favor the spay/neuter, but because I favor to keep down the huge amount of unwanted puppies. And then is spaying/neutering the only option.

Although, I do respect others opinion I see that others do not respect mine.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Nienke

[F1fanatic]

Yes, Bina, the study says "that these effects of spaying on behavior appear to be highly breed-specific", which I have quoted above as well. And what people can read when they actually open teh link and read all of the study.

That there are people who do not WANT to believe these studies, that's up to them.

In my own experience I have seen dogs not becoming calmer of spay/neutering or in a few cases even became more aggressive. When studying about dog behavior this aspect came forward as well; that it is possible that spay/neuter may have the opposite effect with what one tries to establish. Other dog behaviorists around the world have experienced also in some cases an increase in stead of a decrease in aggression after spay/neuter.

So, the results of this study doesn't surprise me.

Furthermore, spay/neuter at an early age can give increased chances on serious long-term physical problems for the animal. As long as I'm able to keep my dogs restrained/seperated during heat cycles, for me it is not worth the risk.

I am a strong advocate of keeping dogs intact, as I believe that everything they got by nature is there for a reason and has an important function in keeping the dogs healthy. Next to keeping them intact, I believe that dogs should be fed a species appropriate diet and keep all chemical toxins (vaccines, ab's, tick/flea treaments etc etc) to a minimum or provide a much more healthy alternative there where possible.

Having said that, I greatly respect the urge to spay/neuter by those who rescue dogs. And I always have supported this where it concerns strays and owned dogs of people who are unwilling to keep their dogs restrained when the female is in heat. Not because I favor the spay/neuter, but because I favor to keep down the huge amount of unwanted puppies. And then is spaying/neutering the only option.

Although, I do respect others opinion I see that others do not respect mine.

I know nothing to disagree with your belief against spaying/neutering. The accepted wisdom is that neutering a male dog leads to less aggression - that is not my experience. However, I worry about your antagonism towards vaccines etc. To a certain extent I agree (it's hard to believe that subjecting your dogs to viruses (or whatever) every year can be good for them), but things like heartworm? How else do you guard against it?

As for aggression or behavioural issues, neutered or not, it's down to the owner to be the 'pack leader' and prevent this unacceptable behaviour.

[Nienke]

I know nothing to disagree with your belief against spaying/neutering.

When someone works with dogs, at least one should know about both the pro's and the con's, which includes the many unwanted puppies and some basic knowledge on dog behavior (development).

However, I worry about your antagonism towards vaccines etc. To a certain extent I agree (it's hard to believe that subjecting your dogs to viruses (or whatever) every year can be good for them

No, it's not good for them to get every year a booster vaccine. And even worse, a booster in the form of a cocktail. And research supports that. There are also studies done about how long puppy vaccines with a booster after a year gives protection for each infectious disease the dog was vax-ed against. The results tells us that in fact an animal doesn't need to get another booster for 5 to 7 years and in some cases even life-time.

I've witnessed with my own eyes, a dog dying of liver failure after his yearly vax booster, another one almost dying of liver failure after his yearly booster (we were able to pull him through with holistic med's), pups developing parvo-virus after being fully vaccinated (those on proper holistic med's pulled through), pups and adult dogs developing canine distemper after being fully vaccinated (all but one pulled through on holistic med's), dogs developing epileptic attacks after receiving their booster, dogs developing auto-immune skin disease after the puppy vaccines, etc.

After seeing and hearing (first hand) more and more of these things you stop just believing what the vets tell you, but start doing your own research. And THAN you get REALLY shocked!

I've seen many skin problems in dogs disappearing by just giving it a species appropriate diet. I've seen dogs with skeleton problems improving by just changing the diet. And sure enough, not all dogs will react positively. After all, only those dogs will react well when their problem is diet-related.

but things like heartworm? How else do you guard against it?

A very healthy immune system and a mosquito net to start with? But then I still give my dogs heart worm pills as I haven't figured out a good other way.

Deworm pills I don't need to give, as that is taken care of through their diet.

As for aggression or behavioural issues, neutered or not, it's down to the owner to be the 'pack leader' and prevent this unacceptable behaviour.

It depends a lot on what you understand under being a 'pack leader' and with what kind of aggression or behavioral problem you are dealing.

There are still many people out there who believe that a good pack leader is one who keeps the dog under control by force, such as putting it in the alpha roll or correct/punish it when the dog does something that the owner doesn't agree with.

Now imagine yourself a dog that feels itself as high or higher in rank than his owner. Such kind of behavior on the part of the owner can lead to severe bites. And the owner is the aggressor.

Another example is a dog that already has shown all sorts of sub-missive postures, which is misunderstood by the owner, who still force his dog in the alpha roll. The only way out to safety, in the dog's mind, is a bite.

Again the owner is the agressor, and the dog will be the victim.

Do you think that a dog that shows fear aggression will benefit from spaying/neutering? How about pain induced aggression?

Edited May 4, 2009 by Nienke

[bina]

excellent points all...

i wish we could do the vaccines once every three years; at least the rabies, however here it isnt legal. as for the others, i dont get my dogs vaccinated every year, more like every two/three years...

pain aggression is something that most vets nowadays should know to check for (hips/spinal), also gradual blindness or hearing loss, teeth pain. checking a dog for pain reactions was always one of the things that at our clinic where i worked we automatically would check if someone came in with a dog saying he was snapping more or aggressing- especially at children, since children play rougher and would put pressure on a sore hip.

as we learned from foofoo, assertiveness and using voice and body language (keeping ourselves in relaxed pose, no leaning over him, keeping feet on the ground (here people kick dogs as a human fear reaction, causing many of our dogs to learn to hate feet with a passion) only was more positive then physically trying to correct him (pushing, pulling, any kind of hands on pressure- all got a super violent lhasa going to the point of blind attack. ) it took a while, but now he is a mostly relaxed and pleasant animal that responds very very well to voice,also can be moved, lifted, put down, handled, for the most part without any fear biting reactions... in this case im sure that neutering (he is intact) would not have made a difference. as it is, he is not a scrapper with the other dogs, all of whom are nuetered, in our area.

only now that lilee is in heat that he is showing aggression, but a normal, canine oriented aggression for the most part, not towards any humans.

bina

israel

[F1fanatic]

I know nothing to disagree with your belief against spaying/neutering.

When someone works with dogs, at least one should know about both the pro's and the con's, which includes the many unwanted puppies and some basic knowledge on dog behavior (development).

My comment about spaying/neutering was purely in response to the OP about aggression. I could not agree more that it is absolutely necessary on other grounds - i.e. to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

No, it's not good for them to get every year a booster vaccine. And even worse, a booster in the form of a cocktail. And research supports that. There are also studies done about how long puppy vaccines with a booster after a year gives protection for each infectious disease the dog was vax-ed against. The results tells us that in fact an animal doesn't need to get another booster for 5 to 7 years and in some cases even life-time.

I've witnessed with my own eyes, a dog dying of liver failure after his yearly vax booster, another one almost dying of liver failure after his yearly booster (we were able to pull him through with holistic med's), pups developing parvo-virus after being fully vaccinated (those on proper holistic med's pulled through), pups and adult dogs developing canine distemper after being fully vaccinated (all but one pulled through on holistic med's), dogs developing epileptic attacks after receiving their booster, dogs developing auto-immune skin disease after the puppy vaccines, etc.

After seeing and hearing (first hand) more and more of these things you stop just believing what the vets tell you, but start doing your own research. And THAN you get REALLY shocked!

Your comments about vaccines are v interesting (and you're not the only knowledgeable person I've known to express this opinion). I will look into it further in view of your comments.

but things like heartworm? How else do you guard against it?

A very healthy immune system and a mosquito net to start with? But then I still give my dogs heart worm pills as I haven't figured out a good other way.

The idea of erecting a permanent mossy net around a dog was v funny - presumably you thought so too which is why you also give heartworm tablets to your dogs!

As for aggression or behavioural issues, neutered or not, it's down to the owner to be the 'pack leader' and prevent this unacceptable behaviour.

It depends a lot on what you understand under being a 'pack leader' and with what kind of aggression or behavioral problem you are dealing.

There are still many people out there who believe that a good pack leader is one who keeps the dog under control by force, such as putting it in the alpha roll or correct/punish it when the dog does something that the owner doesn't agree with.

Now imagine yourself a dog that feels itself as high or higher in rank than his owner. Such kind of behavior on the part of the owner can lead to severe bites. And the owner is the aggressor.

I was not suggesting for a moment that a dog owner should be in any way aggressive towards their dogs! It would be far more likely to reinforce the dog's belief that aggression was acceptable!

Another example is a dog that already has shown all sorts of sub-missive postures, which is misunderstood by the owner, who still force his dog in the alpha roll. The only way out to safety, in the dog's mind, is a bite.

Again the owner is the agressor, and the dog will be the victim.

You're preaching to the converted - anyone who doesn't recognise a dog's submissive postures should not be allowed to have one. They are v obvious.

Do you think that a dog that shows fear aggression will benefit from spaying/neutering? How about pain induced aggression?

I think I made it clear in my first post that many dogs do not become less aggressive as a result of neutering.

Edited May 5, 2009 by F1fanatic