Norwegian Woman And American Woman Die Of Unknown Causes on Koh Phi Phi

[balo]

A skilled interviewer would ask a slew of probing questions - some of them downright uncomfortable. However, that's not Thai style, as it might cause the respondent to lose face, and we'd hate for that to happen in Thailand.

The investigation of these tragic deaths is as much a psychological challenge - as it is a scientific challenge. That's assuming the authorities really want to uncover the nitty gritty truth of the matter, .....and that's a BIG assumption.

Well this is what worries me the most , how can you have a proper investigation when Thais are so afraid of losing face all the time ??

If someone poisened them on purpose we'll never know the truth.

[kjhbigv]

Firstly, my condolences to all the families and friends involved.

I would suggest (as others have) for the benefit of the victims and to ensure this does not happen again, that this thread does not lose any momentum until a satisfactory conclusion is reached.

I presume the property in question was/is 'swarming' with forensic experts investigating every aspect of the property.

Two people dead, one guesthouse, rooms next to each other etc etc. I am no expert but that would probably be my starting point and move on from there!

At least with a thorough scientific investigation, the owner can be happy that their property has a 100% clear bill of health.

I presume a forensic team has been taking swabs/samples of air/water during various times of the day, from every inch of the rooms in question, for scientific diagnosis in a laboratory? Gas measuring equipment has been used etc. Trying to replicate the course of events? Not sure a regular policeman would have that expertise? Do they?

As a previous poster stated, can we presume that all parties have been 'intellectually' interviewed as part as a serious investigation?

It seems the evidence (the body) has been cremated quickly, surely this is one part of the investigation you would definitely 'keep' until the investigation is complete?

I just hope an answer is found soon for all those concerned, especially the families.

[Junglejumbo]

The police should check of the cesspit was sucked out on the Monday morning or not following the deaths that weekend. Had the problem stemmed from that (as some posters suggest) then the owner should have rushed to get is sucked out.

A previous poster said that the poison must have been consumed rather than inhaled given that the problem came from the stomach lining. This would narrow things down a bit, if correct. However, there's different theories. For example, what if inhalation caused severe dehydration which caused the stomach to dry out and then the lining to be damaged. A poison inhaled that damages the nerves could also set off the the severe vomiting (more than 100 times) which alone could also damage the stomach's lining.

I also remember my brother at university having an accident with a test tube which caused him to inhale a dangerous gas that made him vomit for several hours. Therefore, inhalation can also lead to severe vomiting.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Junglejumbo

[CFIT]

So, you have a bungalow that has never had a health problem (at least not major) and suddenly all occupants become violently ill

You were doing ok until this part...all the rooms both directly above and directly on the sides the 2 affected rooms were occupied and NONE of the occupants had any complaints or problems.

Good point. Why only a few contaminated items? And all delivered to adjoining rooms instead of spread out among other rooms? hmm... that starts to weaken this theory a bit doesn't it? Hope that all is eventually explained for the sake of the families and future visitors to Thailand.

Thanks for the comment,

Town

Town,

I think your theory is spot on. Something was in those rooms , and poisoned persons emitting an odor explains a lot. can you expand on that ?

Personal, reused drinking bottles of contaminated water could have only been placed in those two rooms, perhaps using the refill 5 gallon water containers that are popular (but not certified in any way. ) That particular contaminated container ran out, the maid opens a new one with clean water and those refilled individual bottles are OK , and the 5 gallon container goes back to the store to be refilled..Or the other guests didn't use the bottles...

There may still be bottles around..

As far as Thai Police , particularly in that region, being capable, or willing of doing a western standard investigation? I think not.

This is a risk when in Thailand and tourists are really unaware of it- Life is Cheap.

Perhaps providing " Travelers PI/ Coroner" service would be a profitable business.

Edited May 13, 2009 by CFIT

[dkstoney]

Any developments?

[caf]

Among other things that need to be thoroughly investigated:

The g.h. owner and the cleaning woman. Either or both have things they're hiding.

I know how Thai people think. About their fellow Thais: they leave a lot unsaid, because they believe they all think similarly. It fits with a superstitious culture, and one where everyone is brought up to think along the same lines. That type of mindset will make an interview brief. For example, a slew of questions won't be asked because.....

the interviewer will already know what the respondent will say, because the correct/proper answer is inferred in the question. Example Question: "Do you know whether any toxic chemicals were in those rooms?"

Answer: "No toxic chemicals were in those rooms."

That has to be the answer, because anything else would insinuate wrongdoing and risk legal repercussions. So, the when the interviewer knows the inevitable answer, he/she might just save calories and not even ask the question.

A skilled interviewer would ask a slew of probing questions - some of them downright uncomfortable. However, that's not Thai style, as it might cause the respondent to lose face, and we'd hate for that to happen in Thailand.

The investigation of these tragic deaths is as much a psychological challenge - as it is a scientific challenge. That's assuming the authorities really want to uncover the nitty gritty truth of the matter, .....and that's a BIG assumption.

Spot on, Brahmburghers.

We Westerners post observations based on how we think, how we were brought up, our background, our moral code. We assume there should be fairness and a search for the truth. We look at the Thai way of doing something and can not comprehend why it is not being done the way we would do it in the West or according to our standards. We don't accept this is Thailand and they think differently. Have different motivations. ( e.g. Face, Mae Bhen rai to which you have alluded)

I have generalised above. But those of us who have been here a long time understand ( but not necessarily agree with) their style. Thanks for posting a view from the point of view of a seasoned expat.

It is dangerous also to accept all the information fed to us. I am sure many of us don't believe everything we read in the world media but when it comes to Thailand archived copies of their newspapers would probably be filed in the fiction section.

And Cleary's post referring to a Thai paper is rather more ingenuous as he is not even reporting fairly what was actually written in Thai. Given his standard of writing English I am not surprised at his Thai reading or comprehension ability.

I agree with other posters that keeping this thread open is in the best interests of getting at the truth as best we can. We owe it to the bereaved families and their friends to keep this on the front burner.

Thanks again for a good post.

[CFIT]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/05/11/thail...mystery.deaths/

Not new info but

CNN updates the story to include the cyanide reference and includes the name of the head of police who initially gave the statement

BANGKOK, Thailand (CNN) -- Thai authorities investigating the recent deaths of two female tourists suspect that the women may have died from food poisoning, police sources told CNN Monday.

Jill St. Onge died while vacationing with her fiance at a Thailand resort.

var CNN_ArticleChanger = new CNN_imageChanger('cnnImgChngr','/2009/US/05/11/thailand.mystery.deaths/imgChng/p1-0.init.exclude.html',1,1); //CNN.imageChanger.load('cnnImgChngr','imgChng/p1-0.exclude.html'); Jill St. Onge, a 27-year-old artist from Seattle, Washington, and Julie Michelle Bergheim, a 22-year-old Norwegian woman, died at the same resort on Thailand's Phi Phi Island just over a week ago.

The results of the autopsies have not been released by police, who are citing privacy issues.

St. Onge's fiance, Ryan Kells, accompanied her remains as they were flown to the United States on Saturday, her family told CNN.

"Jill's ashes are now with her mother," Robert St. Onge, Jill's brother, wrote on a Web site created to update friends and family. "Thank God every one made it back safe."

Thai police investigators have ruled out poisoning from the nearby water treatment plant, according to police sources on Phi Phi Island and in its province, Krabi. They are concentrating their investigation on whether the women died from food poisoning, either from food or beverages, according to the sources who did not want to be named pending the ongoing investigation.

The owner of Laleena, the guesthouse where the women were staying, told CNN that his facility had nothing to do with the case. He had earlier said in published reports that he believes the women's deaths came from drinking heavily.

St. Onge had been visiting Thailand with Kells at the end of a three-month journey, during which the two had become engaged.

......

......On May 2, Kells found St. Onge vomiting in their hotel room. She had told him earlier that she had not been feeling well. He put her into a shopping cart and searched for help.

"She couldn't breathe, she was vomiting," Kells, 31, told CNN affiliate KGO-TV. "I tried to run her to a hospital and she ended up passing within maybe 12 hours of being sick."

Robert St. Onge said his sister had been healthy and that her sudden death was a mystery.

"It's such a shock," he told CNN. "There was no way to hear last words or even see her because she has already been cremated."

In Internet postings on the family's blog, Kells also described feeling ill at the hotel and said that he believed something in their room had made the couple sick. Watch fiance discuss death of bride-to-be »

He said he had spent less time in their room than his fiancee.

Norway's Foreign Ministry is still waiting for the results of Thailand's post-mortem examination, and is in constant contact with Bergheim's family, ministry spokesman Christian Hansson told CNN.

Bergheim -- a student in Sydney, Australia -- had stopped in Thailand with a friend before returning to Norway, according to Norwegian state media. Her friend also became seriously ill, but has since recovered, the reports said.

Norwegian newspaper Netteavisen -- citing local police chief Nopadon Klom Thong -- reported that traces of cyanide were found in the dead woman's stomach. [ Bergheim]

The final autopsy results are not expected until Thursday, according to Norwegian media.

The U.S. Embassy in Thailand has been working with the St. Onge family, said Michael Turner, an embassy spokesman.

"The police know we are concerned about this. But as with any investigation, it could take some time," Turner said.

Robert St. Onge said Thai authorities told his family that the inquiry could take four to eight weeks. He said the family had been given tissue samples so they could have testing done by an independent laboratory.

At Shadowland, the Seattle restaurant where Jill St. Onge used to work as a bartender, a corner of the bar is filled with pictures, candles and postcards from the couple.

"Greetings from Phnom Penh," one from Jill reads, "We love you guys."

[Jimjim]

It's clear we can't trust CNN to get this story right, as they probably don't have anyone on the ground.

[phuketrex]

I find it strange that in all that's been reported so far there's been nothing from the farang owner of Laleena Guesthouse...an Iranian called Hassan...who was there at the time. Seems he's left it to his Thai lady partner to deal with it??!

[Samuian]

As sad as this story is, nothing will come up -

certainly nothing that will clear the deaths of these people.

There will be some... explanation, case closed - over!

As it has been mentioned in some posts already,

no professionals around,

no proper investigation,

no proper interrogation,

not to make anybody "lose face"...

it's another case of TiT!

I feel deeply sorry for everyone having to cope with the loss....

[CFIT]

I think CNN actually is on to something, albeit accidentally

I think the cyanide reference will turn out to be factual.

Lots of compounds create cyanide as by products ..

I find it strange that in all that's been reported so far there's been nothing from the farang owner of Laleena Guesthouse...an Iranian called Hassan...who was there at the time. Seems he's left it to his Thai lady partner to deal with it??!

So Phuket Rex, are you the blogger who quoted Thai police on that since recanted reference?

I noticed you disappeared for a while...

And you are on the island, correct?

[NBT TV Phuket]

item—7 - on http://thainews.prd.go.th/newsenglish/prev...hp?news_id=1105

Krabi Governor made inspected Phi Phi Island where 2 tourists died.

Krabi Governor Siwa Sirisaowaluck led a provincial chief medical doctor and team of related officials to investigate on Phi Phi Island after two tourists’ recent fatal cases. The governor made the trip to the island following the death of 27 year old American tourist, Miss Jill St. Onge and 22 year old Norwegian tourist Julie Michelle Bergheim. The team made enquiries at the local hospital at Phi Phi where the patients were admitted in the emergency section and their accommodations. The governor was informed in detail that Miss Jill suffered from several severe vomits and she was admitted at 7.40 am on May 3rd. Later she became unconscious. Even with tubes to assist her breathing, she sadly passed away. Meanwhile Miss Julie was also suffering severe vomits and was admitted at around 9 pm on the same day. Doctor prepared to send her for treatment in Phuket, but she died during transfer. Her roommate said she had a great deal of alcohol drink. Medical examinations indicated that both people died from severe dehydration and lack of minerals. The governor said he had instructed restaurants, food and beverage stalls as well as the hospital on the island to be careful with the services as actual causes of death for the two tourists are yet to be determined. He said he had been contacted by two embassies to enquire about the incidents. The governor said he explained that officials had assisted the tourists to their full capacity.

Andaman News NBT TV (VHF dial) at 8.30am & perhaps repeats on Phuket Cable TV channel 1 at 3.30pm, 7pm & 1am, broadcast to Phang Nga, Krabi & Phuket provinces & Mazz Radio FM108 at 7pm in Phuket, Wednesday 13th May 2009 & http://thainews.prd.go.th/newsenglish/ & www.YouTube.com/AndamanNews

[CFIT]

item—7 - on http://thainews.prd.go.th/newsenglish/prev...hp?news_id=1105

Krabi Governor made inspected Phi Phi Island where 2 tourists died.

Krabi Governor Siwa Sirisaowaluck led a provincial chief medical doctor and team of related officials to investigate on Phi Phi Island after two tourists' recent fatal cases. The governor made the trip to the island following the death of 27 year old American tourist, Miss Jill St. Onge and 22 year old Norwegian tourist Julie Michelle Bergheim. The team made enquiries at the local hospital at Phi Phi where the patients were admitted in the emergency section and their accommodations. The governor was informed in detail that Miss Jill suffered from several severe vomits and she was admitted at 7.40 am on May 3rd. Later she became unconscious. Even with tubes to assist her breathing, she sadly passed away. Meanwhile Miss Julie was also suffering severe vomits and was admitted at around 9 pm on the same day. Doctor prepared to send her for treatment in Phuket, but she died during transfer. Her roommate said she had a great deal of alcohol drink. Medical examinations indicated that both people died from severe dehydration and lack of minerals. The governor said he had instructed restaurants, food and beverage stalls as well as the hospital on the island to be careful with the services as actual causes of death for the two tourists are yet to be determined. He said he had been contacted by two embassies to enquire about the incidents. The governor said he explained that officials had assisted the tourists to their full capacity.

Andaman News NBT TV (VHF dial) at 8.30am & perhaps repeats on Phuket Cable TV channel 1 at 3.30pm, 7pm & 1am, broadcast to Phang Nga, Krabi & Phuket provinces & Mazz Radio FM108 at 7pm in Phuket, Wednesday 13th May 2009 & http://thainews.prd.go.th/newsenglish/ & www.YouTube.com/AndamanNews

Please add , in addition to the requistite alcohol reference- to this report the two others, companions to the deceased, Ryan Kell and '"Katrina" who were also taken ill , but recovered, both recounting a bad odor in their respective rooms.

Seems these facts are more pertinent than alcohol consumption and are ommited from the report.

Edited May 13, 2009 by CFIT

[jfchandler]

The prior post, coming from government media, contains yet another backhanded suggestion that the two women drank themselves to death, even though the fiance of the American woman has consistently maintained that they were not drinking alcohol that night. The politicos tour sounds much more like a PR event than any effort at a serious investigative inquiry.

[bkkjames]

The prior post, coming from government media, contains yet another backhanded suggestion that the two women drank themselves to death, even though the fiance of the American woman has consistently maintained that they were not drinking alcohol that night. The politicos tour sounds much more like a PR event than any effort at a serious investigative inquiry.

I wonder when the proverbial "Hopefully this isolated incident will not harm Phi Phi's reputation as a fav international holiday destination" will be rolled out.

[Junglejumbo]

I am wondering what happens to people who have severe accidents in Phi Phi when there's no traffic allowed on the roads? I am wondering if this really includes ambulances or not?

There must be some other means to transporting people other than in shopping carts....

What happens when people have heart attacks, strokes or road accidents? Are they left to die?

If there is an ambulance on the island, then why wasn't it called? They must have some kind of road transportation, otherwise how can deliveries to hotels, shops and restaurants take place....I've been there but I don't remember.

Was nobody interested in helping the poor girls? I do remember that the hoteliers are not very polite. They look down on all the back packers.

[siamiam]

Poison victims will sometimes smell a strong chemical odor after ingesting poison.

Good point.

I would think that an accurate and detailed toxicology report on the two deceased is of paramount importance. Without that, how can any conclusions be reached? It would also be of interest to know if the paths of the two deceased crossed or were in close proximity to each other on the mainland, before they traveled to Phi Phi.

My sincere condolences to all the family and friends of the deceased.

[LivinginKata]

I am wondering what happens to people who have severe accidents in Phi Phi when there's no traffic allowed on the roads? I am wondering if this really includes ambulances or not?

There must be some other means to transporting people other than in shopping carts....

What happens when people have heart attacks, strokes or road accidents? Are they left to die?

If there is an ambulance on the island, then why wasn't it called? They must have some kind of road transportation, otherwise how can deliveries to hotels, shops and restaurants take place....I've been there but I don't remember.

There are no roads on Phi Phi island suitable for vehicles other than motor bikes (with trolley). Goods for hotels & shops are delivered by hand carts & mbike trolley. There is not even a hospital, only a (very) basic medical center. People with a severe illness or from accident must be transported by boat to Phuket Island by regular ferry. If urgent and no ferry at that time then a speed boat needs to be chartered.

I doubt is there are any qualified medical or forensic persons available on Phi Phi island. This incident highlights the lack of quality healthcare & policing on Phi Phi island.

[Scott]

My fear is that there might be some crazy person out there poisoning people. It's not likely, but possible and scary.

Secondly, (again a real long shot), but I know that certain chemicals--like some toilet bowl cleaners if they are mixed with bleach give off a poisonous gas. I highly doubt it would be deadly, however.

I hope there is a quick and HONEST resolution to this situation.

[steadfast]

I think your theory is spot on. Something was in those rooms , and poisoned persons emitting an odor explains a lot. can you expand on that ?

Personal, reused drinking bottles of contaminated water could have only been placed in those two rooms, perhaps using the refill 5 gallon water containers that are popular (but not certified in any way. ) That particular contaminated container ran out, the maid opens a new one with clean water and those refilled individual bottles are OK , and the 5 gallon container goes back to the store to be refilled..Or the other guests didn't use the bottles...

There may still be bottles around..

As far as Thai Police , particularly in that region, being capable, or willing of doing a western standard investigation? I think not.

This is a risk when in Thailand and tourists are really unaware of it- Life is Cheap.

Perhaps providing " Travelers PI/ Coroner" service would be a profitable business.

What an earth are you talking about? I've been buying and drinking from those 5 gal water bottles for years (water tastes okay if it's refrigerated), and never been ill, ever. Now, a can of overpriced out of date anchovies dolloped on top of your pasta's another matter ...

Edited May 13, 2009 by LivinginKata

[Town35]

Good day,

I posted a theory yesterday where I pointed out that a poison more likely in the 2 rooms as opposed to externally (however, without all the facts that still could be the case) and must have been in a medium that was ingested since the victim's symptoms happen more often with an ingested poison rather than an inhaled poisonous gas. However, being ex military I know that there are gasses designed solely for the purpose of making a person vomit - whether this same effect is something that could happen in a gas that could be produced in a normal hotel/residential environment is unknown to me.

As I thought about the possibility of food/water contamination in the rooms, I noticed that the theory actually fits well with known facts. To illustrate, imagine that contaminated water was put in the rooms accidentally, perhaps due to an error in the supply chain. The occupants drink the water, and now being mildly poisoned, they feel a little under the weather, sense a strange chemical smell, but otherwise feel well enough to go out for the night. However, the poisoning, combined with supper and beverages, exacerbates symptoms enough that one person decides to return to the room. Fearing dehydration, he or she follows some well-known travel advice and drinks a little water. This in turn makes the victim sicker, causes vomiting, and more pain. The victim guesses that he or she has picked up a bug or gotten food poisoning, which motivates the victim to drink or sip more water to avoid hydration. The cycle continues until the travelmate comes home. The travelmates notice that their companion is sick and also drinks a little water. So they then slowly become sicker. However, once the sickest of either of the partners requires emergency care, the less sick partner is drawn from the room by the necessity of having to transport the other person. At that point the two survivors are removed from the source of poison and slowly return to good health.

Again, just a theory that is obviously constrained by my lack of knowledge of other poisonings. Experts in air conditioners, water treatment plants, viruses, building construction, or food poisoning may surely see possibilities that others cannot. The weakness in this theory, as pointed out earlier, is the very concentrated location of the poisonings. Why would only 2 rooms get bad food/water/etc? One submitter seemed to have a good answer though on page 12. Any other thoughts out there? Since food poisoning is something that happens daily in Thailand, that also sounds very plausible. Just very dramatic, coincidental, and severe food poisoning in this case.

Once again, my sympathy for the victims and their families.

Regards,

Town

[CFIT]

I think your theory is spot on. Something was in those rooms , and poisoned persons emitting an odor explains a lot. can you expand on that ?

Personal, reused drinking bottles of contaminated water could have only been placed in those two rooms, perhaps using the refill 5 gallon water containers that are popular (but not certified in any way. ) That particular contaminated container ran out, the maid opens a new one with clean water and those refilled individual bottles are OK , and the 5 gallon container goes back to the store to be refilled..Or the other guests didn't use the bottles...

There may still be bottles around..

As far as Thai Police , particularly in that region, being capable, or willing of doing a western standard investigation? I think not.

This is a risk when in Thailand and tourists are really unaware of it- Life is Cheap.

Perhaps providing " Travelers PI/ Coroner" service would be a profitable business.

What an earth are you talking about? I've been buying and drinking from those 5 gal water bottles for years (water tastes okay if it's refrigerated), and never been ill, ever. Now, a can of overpriced out of date anchovies dolloped on top of your pasta's another matter ...

Well anchovies are not common to the four sickened people, the rooms are, and the symptoms are indicating ingestion.

I know th e thread is quite long, but if you'll read through I'm sure you'll agree.

It's not far fetched to see that a 5 gallon container that is reused and refilled can be contaminated with a substance such as pesticide, particularly if the the establishment was using its own water source.

Here I'll describe the scenario.

Gardener needs container to mix pesticide , weed killer or whatever.

Uses 5 gallon container.

Finishes job for day puts container in corner of store room with chemical liquid still inside.

Maid needs container to collect water from hose in which to fill up water bottles,

Maid sees container in store room

Maid does not rinse out -or does but enough residue is left .... fills container from hose, perhaps has done this for years with no ill effects as water is supplied by clean source.

Maid fills up individual room water bottles with now poisoned water.

(Or 5 gallon container used for chemical is sent back to refill site from other establishment and not cleaned properly and refilled and goes on its way to Laleena .)

Actually a very simple explanation . And not all the rooms are given water from this source..

Or , some guests aren't using the water, or did but other factors , such as Town's theory about other activity exacerbating the symptoms, eating, drinking or staying in the room and consuming more water contribute to the severity of the illnesses.

Two died, two recovered.

Some other guests may have poured it out, or used a small amount , then check out without mentioning bad smelling water, or maid uses bulk of water for something else.

OR a smaller container is used, not a 5 gallon refill but another bottle the staff has around and perhaps a new staff member uses for poison.

There may well be more contaminated bottles out there.

Yes I feel sure this is what happened.

And no, it will probably never be ascertained.

Edited May 14, 2009 by CFIT

[ThaiEye]

Theory, theory, theory - speculation, speculation, speculation. I don't think ive ever met so many FBI special detective wanna-bes in the same place.

Boring......

[CFIT]

Theory, theory, theory - speculation, speculation, speculation. I don't think ive ever met so many FBI special detective wanna-bes in the same place.

Boring......

So what is your contribution to the discussion ?

Yeah, its so boring , the thread is now 13 pages long.

And you are rude and your troll post has no redeeming value

This entire forum is devoted to discussion and this is important to to some of us to speculate.

[elektrified]

Theory, theory, theory - speculation, speculation, speculation. I don't think ive ever met so many FBI special detective wanna-bes in the same place.

Boring......

So what is your contribution to the discussion ?

Yeah, its so boring , the thread is now 13 pages long.

And you are rude and your troll post has no redeeming value

This entire forum is devoted to discussion and this is important to to some of us to speculate.

I dont think anyone but you feels that your speculation is important!

Edited May 14, 2009 by elektrified

[Maxi101]

Hopefully this incident will harm Phi Phi's reputation and more -( but I doubt it will).

Imagine instead of more hotels, an additional hospital - like some serurity craving farrangs wish for -, water supply, maybe roads and bars, greedy thais, corrupt police and trash and action...

there would be peace.

Finally.

[balo]

I find it strange that in all that's been reported so far there's been nothing from the farang owner of Laleena Guesthouse...an Iranian called Hassan...who was there at the time. Seems he's left it to his Thai lady partner to deal with it??!

So what about this Iranian owner ??

I'm sure if someone tried to contact him he would be cooperative and assist the police , maybe even try to do some sort of investigation himself .

If not we will do everything we can to warn people about Laleena Guesthouse!

[craig]

Why are members becoming rude to each other on this thread. People died and some would like to understand why...so, they speculate...and think up what may be the reason...official explanations here may not be true. If you are tired of the speculation or think the speculation of others is of no interest then, I suggest, you simply don't read this thread...maybe then those who are interested in the subject may discuss it without your distractions.

Some of the speculation here is with little basis in fact...lack of knowledge, etc. but if it is put forth in an honest effort to contribute to the understanding of the subject it is welcome and certainly of more worth than what the complainers post. This is my opinion.

[brahmburgers]

I think your theory is spot on. Something was in those rooms , and poisoned persons emitting an odor explains a lot. can you expand on that ?

Personal, reused drinking bottles of contaminated water could have only been placed in those two rooms, perhaps using the refill 5 gallon water containers that are popular (but not certified in any way. ) That particular contaminated container ran out, the maid opens a new one with clean water and those refilled individual bottles are OK , and the 5 gallon container goes back to the store to be refilled..Or the other guests didn't use the bottles...

There may still be bottles around..

As far as Thai Police , particularly in that region, being capable, or willing of doing a western standard investigation? I think not.

This is a risk when in Thailand and tourists are really unaware of it- Life is Cheap.

Perhaps providing " Travelers PI/ Coroner" service would be a profitable business.

What an earth are you talking about? I've been buying and drinking from those 5 gal water bottles for years (water tastes okay if it's refrigerated), and never been ill, ever. Now, a can of overpriced out of date anchovies dolloped on top of your pasta's another matter ...

Well anchovies are not common to the four sickened people, the rooms are, and the symptoms are indicating ingestion.

I know the thread is quite long, but if you'll read through I'm sure you'll agree.

It's not far fetched to see that a 5 gallon container that is reused and refilled can be contaminated with a substance such as pesticide, particularly if the the establishment was using its own water source.

Here I'll describe the scenario.

Gardener needs container to mix pesticide , weed killer or whatever.

Uses 5 gallon container.

Finishes job for day puts container in corner of store room with chemical liquid still inside.

Maid needs container to collect water from hose in which to fill up water bottles,

Maid sees container in store room

Maid does not rinse out -or does but enough residue is left .... fills container from hose, perhaps has done this for years with no ill effects as water is supplied by clean source.

Maid fills up individual room water bottles with now poisoned water.

(Or 5 gallon container used for chemical is sent back to refill site from other establishment and not cleaned properly and refilled and goes on its way to Laleena .)

Actually a very simple explanation . And not all the rooms are given water from this source..

Or , some guests aren't using the water, or did but other factors , such as Town's theory about other activity exacerbating the symptoms, eating, drinking or staying in the room and consuming more water contribute to the severity of the illnesses.

Two died, two recovered.

Some other guests may have poured it out, or used a small amount , then check out without mentioning bad smelling water, or maid uses bulk of water for something else.

OR a smaller container is used, not a 5 gallon refill but another bottle the staff has around and perhaps a new staff member uses for poison.

There may well be more contaminated bottles out there.

Yes I feel sure this is what happened.

And no, it will probably never be ascertained.

Earlier, I alluded to the possibility of tainted water containers (pesticide sounds likely). It would too easy for g.h. owner/maid to get rid of that evidence, so each day that passes, is another day in which the scenario gets colder.

Theory, theory, theory - speculation, speculation, speculation. I don't think ive ever met so many FBI special detective wanna-bes in the same place. Boring......

That's a cop-out attitude. If you don't care for the topic, bug off. Many of the posters here, myself included, genuinely care about this story - and the possibility that more may be harmed. Current investigators (if we're to go by what's been elucidated thus far) are dropping the ball. Perhaps some real investigative work is going on - and the results will be published soon. I hope so, but an not holding my breath. All indications are Thai authorities involved want this to blow over a.s.a.p. That's reason enough for this thread to stay open. Some of the posts in this topic are very interesting. I really wish investigators (if there are any on the scene there at Laleena) would check out this thread some of the suggestions.

As for networking on a solution: About 20 years ago there was mention of a problem with the US space shuttle - a leak in a difficult to access little high pressure pipe. It kept the shuttle grounded. Hundreds of suggestions came in from the public, and one was tried (epoxy under pressure) ...and solved the problem. Think about it, here are about 3 dozen concerned, intelligent folks (ok, some of us may be over 100 IQ) - all proposing theories, with a decent amount of expertise and knowledge of the scenario. Meanwhile Thai investigators are focusing on restaurants and trying to implicate excessive alcohol drinking - which, for those of us following this closely, are wrong-headed assumptions.

[CFIT]

I dont think anyone but you feels that your speculation is important!

Seems you are wrong.