Norwegian Woman And American Woman Die Of Unknown Causes on Koh Phi Phi

[CFIT]

[...]

Can you confirm the above, Robb? They are threatening to cremate the body??

If you had bothered to read the thread in which you are posting, you would have known (see e.g. post #242) that her fiancé has already arrived back in the USA with her ashes.

/ Priceless

Sorry , the thread is getting lengthy, I'm just trying to keep all the press up dated .

So was that Thailand or the family's idea to cremate a body before it's been determined what the cause of death was or if a crime has been committed?

And Bergheim's body?

[Junglejumbo]

From reading the family's blogs last week my impression was that it was the family's idea to get the body cremated over here, but that they wanted to keep samples. Indeed they seemed concerned about how long the finacee might have to stay here given the public holiday and that a cremation couldn't happen early enough. However, whether the police refused to provide the samples or not is perhaps the correct issue??

I can well imagine the authorities not knowing what to do here in a short space of time and who to give what samples to?

Could they be carried back on an airplane? Kept in a hospital until a US lab is found? How are they signed off on and by who (the boy friend wasn't married yet)? However, the Thai authorities have already taken samples from my understanding and having them analysed now hopefully. Could they then be used twice?

I expect that things would come down to money, a sensitive issue which is none of our business. There's no mention of insurance anywhere. Seems the 27 yr old guy was trying to organize everything which is a bit too much on one person who like the rest of us probably isn't an expert in the field of autopsy.

[sriracha john]

Phi Phi Deaths: Cause 'May Take a Month or More'

Results of autopsies on two young women tourists who died in unusual circumstances on the holiday island of Phi Phi are not likely to be available for a month or more. Norwegian Ambassador Merete Fjeld Brattested told Phuketwan today that a month or more was the normal length of time for autopsy results to be processed in Thailand.

She said she was ''very concerned that the press is speculating wildly'' about the causes of death of the women on Phi Phi. Norwegian Julie Bergheim,22, and American Jill St Onge, 27, fell ill with similar symptoms while occupying adjacent rooms at the Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi on May 2 and died at the local hospital within hours of each other.

Phuketwan asked the Ambassador today whether results had been obtained for the autopsy on Norwegian citizen Erik Liuhagen, 48, who died on Phi Phi on April 1 after being admitted to the local hospital with severe diarrhea. The Ambassador said the embassy was also still awaiting the autopsy result in that case. She said the embassy was awaiting ''appropriate information.''

She said that a woman companion to Miss Bergheim, who also fell sick, was now back in Norway.

Continued:

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/phi-phi-deaths-month-11094/

- Phuketwan / 2009-05-11

Edited May 11, 2009 by sriracha john

[Stephen Cleary]

the authorities have already been telling local newspapers NOT TO PUBLISH THE STORIES ABOUT THESE DEATHS, as it would hurt tourism, can you believe this crap?

According to a friend of mine, whose wife has been following this story on Thai T.V. Some of the news programs are saying that the deaths were caused by an overdose of sleeping pills ...... just incredible isn't it.

I, personally, have been following the story in the Thai press and on the news etc... and there have been more than plenty of reports on the two women. To say local newspapers have been ordered to 'not publish about these deaths' is soaked in conspiracy theory.

What else is totally untrue, is that some of the news programmes have been saying that the deaths were caused by sleeping pills.

What the Thai media has been reporting is very similar to the reports, all is unsure and they are waiting for the autopsies. The Thai media, including the tabloids have only put forward possible 'theories' such as drug overdose, food poisoning, dodgy gas etc... exactly the same kinda stuff as been posted here.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Stephen Cleary

[longtom]

Thanks a lot for this clarification, many of us can't read thai and don't watch thai tv as me, I guess at least. Sounds like very reasonable reporting for the LoS.

[sriracha john]

Food poisoning suspected in Thai deaths, sources say

BANGKOK, Thailand — Thai authorities investigating the recent deaths of two female tourists suspect that the women may have died from food poisoning, police sources told CNN on Monday.

Jill St. Onge, a 27-year-old artist from Seattle, Washington, and Julie Michelle Bergheim, a 22-year-old Norwegian woman, died at the same resort on Thailand’s Phi Phi Island just over a week ago. The results of the autopsies have not been released by police, who are citing privacy issues.

St. Onge’s fiance, Ryan Kells, accompanied her remains as they were flown to the United States on Saturday, her family told CNN.

“Jill’s ashes are now with her mother,” Robert St. Onge, Jill’s brother, wrote on a Web site created to update friends and family. “Thank God every one made it back safe.”

Thai police investigators have ruled out poisoning from the nearby water treatment plant, according to police sources on Phi Phi Island and in its province, Krabi. They are concentrating their investigation on whether the women died from food poisoning, either from food or beverages, according to the sources who did not want to be named pending the ongoing investigation.

2009-05-11

[Junglejumbo]

This is an obvious question but despite 12 pages of posts, I am not aware of anyone directly asking it BUT:

WHY if there was a bad smell in the room, so bad according to the boy friend that Miss St.Ong "had to cover her head with the sheet" did the couple AGREE to continue to take the room?

It was only a stupid cheap guest house. There's plenty in Phi Phi....why not change the room or the guest house? They had been traveling for some time, and old enough to know better....... The boy friend also went in and out of the room a few times, so he should know how bad the small was....

We have a NOSE for a reason....

[kenai]

This is an obvious question but despite 12 pages of posts, I am not aware of anyone directly asking it BUT:

WHY if there was a bad smell in the room, so bad according to the boy friend that Miss St.Ong "had to cover her head with the sheet" did the couple AGREE to continue to take the room?

It was only a stupid cheap guest house. There's plenty in Phi Phi....why not change the room or the guest house? They had been traveling for some time, and old enough to know better....... The boy friend also went in and out of the room a few times, so he should know how bad the small was....

We have a NOSE for a reason....

I remember reading he noticed a chemical smell when he entered - I dont recall him saying the smell persisted. I dont recall about "covering her head with the sheet" can you link or leave the post #.

I don't think this is a time to question the victims actions. Nobody would expect anything like this to ever happen. I dont care how long you have been traveling.

With all due respect - I would like to see the last 2 posts deleted. The family doesn't need remarks like these at a time when they are dealing with an absolute tragedy.

[caf]

the authorities have already been telling local newspapers NOT TO PUBLISH THE STORIES ABOUT THESE DEATHS, as it would hurt tourism, can you believe this crap?

According to a friend of mine, whose wife has been following this story on Thai T.V. Some of the news programs are saying that the deaths were caused by an overdose of sleeping pills ...... just incredible isn't it.

I, personally, have been following the story in the Thai press and on the news etc... and there have been more than plenty of reports on the two women. To say local newspapers have been ordered to 'not publish about these deaths' is soaked in conspiracy theory.

What else is totally untrue, is that some of the news programmes have been saying that the deaths were caused by sleeping pills.

What the Thai media has been reporting is very similar to the reports, all is unsure and they are waiting for the autopsies. The Thai media, including the tabloids have only put forward possible 'theories' such as drug overdose, food poisoning, dodgy gas etc... exactly the same kinda stuff as been posted here.

I read Thai and would not agree with you.

[balo]

This is an obvious question but despite 12 pages of posts, I am not aware of anyone directly asking it BUT:

WHY if there was a bad smell in the room, so bad according to the boy friend that Miss St.Ong "had to cover her head with the sheet" did the couple AGREE to continue to take the room?

It was not the american girl but the surviving 20 year old Norwegian that told the police about the strong odor in the room before they were sick. The smell was so intense that she had to hide under the sheet.

The 20 year old have now arrived back safely to her hometown Trondheim in central Norway, and her father is protecting her from being interviewed by the media.

It would be interesting to hear her story of what happened.

[CFIT]

Like i said earlier, it is a national passtime but lets call it policy: to cover up murders of foreigners and muddle the facts of foreigners killed by Thai mistakes and incompetence. Make it look like a suicide if possible, accident that can be blamed on the victim at the least. If anyone missed it, the authorities have already been telling local newspapers NOT TO PUBLISH THE STORIES ABOUT THESE DEATHS, as it would hurt tourism, can you believe this crap?

You are misquoting

The exact quote from the Phuket- Wan editorial:

"In some quarters within the tourism industry in Thailand (and elsewhere) the first reaction probably still is to keep the truth from the public.

Phuketwan has been told more than once that an article should not be written '' because if this gets out, it will damage the tourism industry.''

So it is not specific to this story, though I would not doubt the editor has felt pressure on this , too.

But let's try to keep facts straight, this is important and anti Thai sentiments won't help to get the truth out

( as true as they may be. )

[steelepulse]

>>Thai authorities investigating the recent deaths of two female tourists suspect that the women may have died from food poisoning, police sources told CNN on Monday.

May have died from food poisoning is exactly that, may have, but then again it may be a number of other causes.  I just love how now CNN TV is taking this as almost definitive when broadcasting this on TV.  Sure looks like the gov't wants to sweep this under the rug by allowing CNN to put forward their speculation as the truth.

[CFIT]

Food poisoning suspected in Thai deaths, sources say

BANGKOK, Thailand — Thai authorities investigating the recent deaths of two female tourists suspect that the women may have died from food poisoning, police sources told CNN on Monday.

Jill St. Onge, a 27-year-old artist from Seattle, Washington, and Julie Michelle Bergheim, a 22-year-old Norwegian woman, died at the same resort on Thailand's Phi Phi Island just over a week ago. The results of the autopsies have not been released by police, who are citing privacy issues.

St. Onge's fiance, Ryan Kells, accompanied her remains as they were flown to the United States on Saturday, her family told CNN.

"Jill's ashes are now with her mother," Robert St. Onge, Jill's brother, wrote on a Web site created to update friends and family. "Thank God every one made it back safe."

Thai police investigators have ruled out poisoning from the nearby water treatment plant, according to police sources on Phi Phi Island and in its province, Krabi. They are concentrating their investigation on whether the women died from food poisoning, either from food or beverages, according to the sources who did not want to be named pending the ongoing investigation.

2009-05-11

OK, COMPLETED Autopsy reports will take;

1) Andaman Times; 2-4 weeks ,

2) PhuketWan;10 days ( from May 8 ),

3) CNN; are done but can't be released.

I think the preliminary autopsies done. and , the earlier , but retracted cyanide reference in Ms. Bergheim's case is true, possibly for Ms. St. Onge, too.

but it WILL take another few weeks to complete the reports.

So I see how the press is so convoluted and contradictory and what's scary is, it's this way on EVERYTHING !

So Mr. Robert St. Onge, what are the results of the preliminary autopsy, if we may ask?

Edited May 12, 2009 by CFIT

[redscouse]

listening to met107 this morning in the car, the presenters on the morning show are a farang male and a thai woman (i believe she is in some thai female rock group).

the guy comes across as a total fool, as does she in fact, every day the ask a question such as 'if you formed a political party in thailand what would you call it', this is followed by some inane drivel about thai politics to help you, listeners are then asked to sms their answers which are then read out.

Todays question was 'what caused the deaths of the two tourists on Phi Phi?' followed by drivel about how the two girls stayed in the SAME room. anyway the answers were read out, the farang guy discounted food poisoning as he said they stayed in the same room?????? now the winner was the most laughable, the winner was the deaths were caused by a black widow spider, our farang idiot believes this is possible as he reiterated again the girls stayed in the same room.

irresponsible ......., getting people to speculate without any correct facts then broadcasting their pathetic answers which ranged food poisoning, alcohol poisoning, the treatment plant and then the winning black widow spider

Edited May 12, 2009 by LivinginKata

[bkkjingjoe]

This is unbelievable. A Black Widow Spieder?

Even if they were staying in the same room, how likely would it be for two individuals to get bitten?

If I recall it right, all the English radio stations are directly und the Thai Government News Broadcast Agency.

So I could imaging some old government official siiting there and writing the scripts for them to read.

Just another attempt of covering up and misleading public opinion. I think the winning answer was already "pre-desigend" and there were no votes at all.

This is so sad, I don't think it is possible to trust any news at all.

So the big question is "why"....and when will they realize that this bs causes more harm than it does good to the country and tourism industry...

My deepest feelings and condolences again to the families and friends.

[sriracha john]

< un-informed speculation snipped >

So the big question is "why"....and when will they realize that this bs causes more harm than it does good to the country and tourism industry...

My deepest feelings and condolences again to the families and friends.

If you don't know what you talking about in the slightest regarding Thailand radio, probably best not to speculate on it.

[Junglejumbo]

I didn't mean that someone who'd been traveling would know a lethal smell. I just meant that you know you don't need to accept rooms which for some reason you don't like. I remember back packing when I was 19 and I asked to change a room in Hong Kong because it stank of tobacco smoke. The more you travel the more you know you don't have to accept sub-standard. I will even change a room with a slightly noisy air-condition...I would also never pay in advance for a room that I hadn't checked first.

[Scott]

Does anybody have any idea of what kind of food poisoning would act this quickly? It also seems relatively selective--unless these few folks ate something rather unusual.

[CFIT]

OT but relevant;

The " apparent drowning" found on Krabi beach has not had cause of death ascertained , so the body is being held.

Yet, neither is St. Onge cause of death known, yet her body is cremated very quickly and her family reportedly were not keen to do this but the US State Dept recommended it as the best way to get her remains home quickly ( and economically ?) .

Why did not Thailand say" no" we are keeping the body, until we know cause of death ( or crime has/ or not been committed) like they are for this Krabi death?

Because they already know cause of death?

[siamiam]

Does anybody have any idea of what kind of food poisoning would act this quickly? It also seems relatively selective--unless these few folks ate something rather unusual.

I think some mushrooms can act this quickly, possibly some shellfish, (and non-shell fish), as well.

[CFIT]

Does anybody have any idea of what kind of food poisoning would act this quickly? It also seems relatively selective--unless these few folks ate something rather unusual.

Yeah, like a mickey.

I don't think spoiled food is the culprit, bacteria in rotten food is going to give you fierce diarrhea in addition to vomiting. All four persons stricken are missing this symptom. And St. Onge and Bergheim had no apparent food in common.

It would take 2- or more days of this kind of systemic illness to wreak havoc enough to cause death. These women were young and healthy and dead within 12 hours of onset.

Symptoms are; intense vomiting and stomach pain , leading to dehydration, extreme in the case of Bergheim, coupled w with hyper- ventilation, heart failure.

Fumes or gas from a chemical or corrosive would show in the lungs and esophagus

Pesticide poisoning sure seems to fit the symptoms. And may explain the odor reported from both Kells and " Katrina"

[siamiam]

Does anybody have any idea of what kind of food poisoning would act this quickly? It also seems relatively selective--unless these few folks ate something rather unusual.

I think some mushrooms can act this quickly, possibly some shellfish, (and non-shell fish), as well.

I thought I should clarify 'quickly'. What I meant is that once mushroom poisoning symptoms begin, death can follow quickly. The symptoms can take days or longer to begin after ingestion. Also, mushrooms are reported to be a collector/concentrator of pesticides and other poisenous chemicals, also radioactive material. So, usually non-deadly mushrooms can become deadly in some situations. Hypothetically, a person could eat a mushroom on the mainland, then days later fall ill from it on Phi Phi.

[annabel]

Where do you all come from /..??? Pufferfish , Shark fish ....etc all the other non sense ...??

They ate ( the 2 girls ) rice, pasta ...NO FISH ....The americans ate HAMBURGERS ....God!! WHat does this have to do with 2 totally unassocited people dying of the same causes which is OBVIUOUSLY NOT FOOD RELATED !!! Mama Mia ...THEY DIDN"T EAT FISH !! SO what are you all going on about ...???? They didn't even eat anything that was the same or even similar...Or are you confusing the Thai Saying of = Same / Same but different ???????????

They were in the same guest house in seperate rooms that were side by side...Alchool also not a factor since the Americans didnt even drink that nite .../..You all go off on so totally irrelevant tangeants and it is sooooo painfull to read as it is soooo unassociated with any of the facts .... Oye...!!

Hi I come from California, where even there are found many ways that fatal toxins are produced in a wide variety of foods (like hamburger) without the need to theorize about puffer fish or industrial/agricultural chemical contaminants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptomain

They didn't even eat the same thing ...or even at the same restaurant ...!! so whether puffer fish or hamburger or whatever fatal toxins which can get itnto food ....WHAT is your point ??....These are extreme cases and don't happen to people who ate totally different things at totally different places !! ,,,,,the Norwegians ate Pasta and the Americans Pizza and Hamburger at different places !!! And one had alchool and the other one didn't ! SO ...All food in Phi Phi is poisnonous Obviously the easiest thing for these people to do is to get rid of the problem as quickly as possible and blame it on food poisoning or alchool which is the easiest way out ... till there is another poor victim ....the 2 cases have nothing but nothing in comon as far as food or drinking alchool and they both died a very nasty quick death at a very young age and this is all that can e said...food poisonning or too much alchool ....What a world!

[brahmburgers]

What the Thai media has been reporting is very similar to the reports, all is unsure and they are waiting for the autopsies. The Thai media, including the tabloids have only put forward possible 'theories' such as drug overdose, food poisoning, dodgy gas etc... exactly the same kinda stuff as been posted here.

A slight qualification: nearly all the posts within this long thread have speculated that the causes probably relate to the rooms, and their surroundings. In lieu of that, drug overdose and possible food poisoning have not been commonly proposed as culprits within T.Visa. Thai officials, on the other hand, try to keep poker faces about these serious incidents, but when they do mention some possibilities, it relates to something the travelers ingested outside the guest house. In contrast, T.Visa speculators appear drawn to the environment of the guest house or something ingested there, such as tainted water.

I hope the inspectors check the septic/cess pool system and whether it was vented, and whether there are 'traps' for all the waste pipes leading out of the rooms. It is hoped the inspectors also do a thorough check of the air-con systems and the water treatment facility nearby. If there are any drinking water containers left over (doubtful) those should be checked, as well as cleaning solutions used by the maid, and any other items that could be questionable. For example, were the rooms fitted with new mattresses and bedding? Those sorts of items have a lot of formaldihyde gas (debilitating) and are wrapped in plastic, so all the fumes are released when newly unwrapped. Not as likely a culprit (in my view) as the sewer gas theory, but all possibilities should be considered.

I expect, when autopsy results come through and conclusions are drawn by Thai authorities, it will be a continuation of the obfuscation and errant thinking we (some of us) have come to expect from them in such touchy scenarios.

[annabel]

This is an obvious question but despite 12 pages of posts, I am not aware of anyone directly asking it BUT:

WHY if there was a bad smell in the room, so bad according to the boy friend that Miss St.Ong "had to cover her head with the sheet" did the couple AGREE to continue to take the room?

It was not the american girl but the surviving 20 year old Norwegian that told the police about the strong odor in the room before they were sick. The smell was so intense that she had to hide under the sheet.

The 20 year old have now arrived back safely to her hometown Trondheim in central Norway, and her father is protecting her from being interviewed by the media.

It would be interesting to hear her story of what happened.

Jill's husband or fiancee also commented on the smell

[annabel]

OT but relevant;

The " apparent drowning" found on Krabi beach has not had cause of death ascertained , so the body is being held.

Yet, neither is St. Onge cause of death known, yet her body is cremated very quickly and her family reportedly were not keen to do this but the US State Dept recommended it as the best way to get her remains home quickly ( and economically ?) .

Why did not Thailand say" no" we are keeping the body, until we know cause of death ( or crime has/ or not been committed) like they are for this Krabi death?

Because they already know cause of death?

A poke in the dark....would it have not been possible to fly the body (bodies) to their home country and do the autopsy there...? Or would that be illegal because death was in Thailand and Thailand must do the autopsies....?? Or would be too expensive,...? just think that the way things get covered up here would have been better to do the autopsies back home ....guess that is not possible , right ???

[Town35]

This is a far cry from being a bullet proof theory, but here are some observations. I am not a doctor so the medical opinions are obviously limited by my lack of med education.

My main observations are as follows:

1. The occupants of a room all ingested some type of poison that most likely was in their rooms.

2. The poison must have been introduced into each room at approximately the same time or day, otherwise the illnesses would not have happened nearly simultaneously.

3. The poison would have been in a medium that would be highly likely to have been ingested by an average tourist.

4. Gas poisoning is (of course I am not an expert and am making only a semi-educated deduction) is highly unlikely due to symptoms. The severe gastritis and stomach symptoms were highly indicative of ingestion of a poison, not inhalation. And one person began to feel ill only after being out of the room for a while. Also, no other persons were reported to have become ill at the hotel.

5. Food poisoning is unlikely since the symptoms were to extreme, fast acting, and an outbreak of food poisoning from a vendor or restaurant would not confine itself to a certain bungalow. it would be unlikely that only four people consisting of two different parties in the same building would be the only ones to eat the poisoned food and become deathly ill while reportedly nobody else did.

So, you have a bungalow that has never had a health problem (at least not major) and suddenly all occupants become violently ill with a gastritis that resembles, from reports, a chemical type of poisoning. So, most likely, a chemical was introduced into the rooms almost simultaneously in a medium that one can predict that an average tourist would be likely to ingest. That leaves one of the main culprits as the food and water stock in the room. The food/beverage stock is replenished daily (satisfies sudden-introduction requirement), the water is consumed, in my experience traveling in Thailand with friends, fairly predictably (satisfies the reqirement for a common medium). And, while I have no proof, it is anecdotal common knowledge that 3rd world countries sometimes refill their empty bottles with tap water. So, using a scenario that results in common poisonings in the US, what would happen if a few empty water bottles were used to make ant-poison or a heavy-duty cleaning concoction but not sufficiently rinsed out before refilling? I wouldn't put money on this theory, it would require a somewhat long chain of events to happen, and is only a proposal. But by looking at the evidence available this theory seems to get somewhere near a possible explanation. I am also interested in one of the survivor's claim to have experienced a strong chemical smell in the room. Poison victims will sometimes smell a strong chemical odor after ingesting poison. Or was the lingering chemical smell the result of cleaning recently done in the room? Which may have introduced inadvertently dangerous chemical into the food and water supply? In no way would I want to use these far-removed and layman observations to imply any negligence on anybody's part. Who knows, could have been something more mundane. I just thought that this submission may cause somebody else to remember or think of something that could provide the answer to this tragedy.

Regards,

Town

[sriracha john]

So, you have a bungalow that has never had a health problem (at least not major) and suddenly all occupants become violently ill

You were doing ok until this part...all the rooms both directly above and directly on the sides the 2 affected rooms were occupied and NONE of the occupants had any complaints or problems.

Edited May 12, 2009 by sriracha john

[Town35]

So, you have a bungalow that has never had a health problem (at least not major) and suddenly all occupants become violently ill

You were doing ok until this part...all the rooms both directly above and directly on the sides the 2 affected rooms were occupied and NONE of the occupants had any complaints or problems.

Good point. Why only a few contaminated items? And all delivered to adjoining rooms instead of spread out among other rooms? hmm... that starts to weaken this theory a bit doesn't it? Hope that all is eventually explained for the sake of the families and future visitors to Thailand.

Thanks for the comment,

Town

[brahmburgers]

Among other things that need to be thoroughly investigated:

The g.h. owner and the cleaning woman. Either or both have things they're hiding.

I know how Thai people think. About their fellow Thais: they leave a lot unsaid, because they believe they all think similarly. It fits with a superstitious culture, and one where everyone is brought up to think along the same lines. That type of mindset will make an interview brief. For example, a slew of questions won't be asked because.....

the interviewer will already know what the respondent will say, because the correct/proper answer is inferred in the question. Example Question: "Do you know whether any toxic chemicals were in those rooms?"

Answer: "No toxic chemicals were in those rooms."

That has to be the answer, because anything else would insinuate wrongdoing and risk legal repercussions. So, the when the interviewer knows the inevitable answer, he/she might just save calories and not even ask the question.

A skilled interviewer would ask a slew of probing questions - some of them downright uncomfortable. However, that's not Thai style, as it might cause the respondent to lose face, and we'd hate for that to happen in Thailand.

The investigation of these tragic deaths is as much a psychological challenge - as it is a scientific challenge. That's assuming the authorities really want to uncover the nitty gritty truth of the matter, .....and that's a BIG assumption.