Norwegian Woman And American Woman Die Of Unknown Causes on Koh Phi Phi

[CFIT]

Good day - An article in the Phuketwan gives a maid's account of seeing both sick couples just before they all sought medical help. The state of dress of the victims could offer insight. Something hit them while in they were in the room so hard that even their modesty was discarded and the Norwegians did not even attempt to seek help. I am aware that carbon monoxide poisoning can sometimes incapacitate a person so badly that many victims cannot even think clearly enough to walk out of the house for help. Does anything else in this case sound like carbon monoxide poisoning? Was a generator running outside nearby? Or is it even possible for carbon monoxide get sucked from outside to inside? I wouldn't call this a theory since there is no indication that it could have even been possible. Just curious if there may be other facts that make this a possibility.

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/phi-phi-myste...-account-11080/

Cheers -- Town

That " Maid's Account " was the biggest piece of sensationalistic dis information I've seen so far on this case. I thought the nudity was mentioned repeatedly in order to somehow discredit the victims, ( like being nud_e when you're puking your guts out is somehow unethical and deserving of death? ) Likewise, mentioning the bucket cocktails again and again and the drugs at the full moon parties ( which wasn't until 5 nights later) I wrote a comment stating this error and I got an editor response, " OK, we've fixed the quote.." And they did actually add " ...Full moon parties start a week ahead of time .." CLUELESS

Phuket Wan is absolutely schizophrenic, the editorial by Morison was excellent, and it's the only publication to stay on top of the Thai DCA regarding 1-2 Go Phuket crash but then I guess the ubiquitous Thai partner/incompetent girlfriend gets to write her nauseatingly activist, pro-Thailand- at- all- costs propaganda.

Notice how scenic beach scenes are heading this tragic death story?

She actually wrote some responses to comments about the Canadian getting murdered by hitmen a few months ago in Patong along the lines of " Farang better watch themselves and behave.... And, " Those farang who don't have dirty deals don't have to worry .."

Mr Morison, please, dump her, she is dragging your publication DOWN. Get yourself a Thai business partner who won't undo all your good work.

[CFIT]

A lot of inaccurate information about Legionaires on this forum. I worked as a Industrial Water Treatment Tech. for more than 10 years and part of our job was to treat cooling towers. The Legionaires Bacteria has to be transported in water droplets and these droplets have to be small enough for you to inhale them.

In original case of this in Phildeliphia the cooling tower mist was discharging over the front door to the hotel. The Legionairs who contacted the diease, all had compromised immune systems caused from lack of sleep, drinking and old age. they were walking in and out of the front door thru the mist every day breathing in the bacteria.

Another case in New Orleans happened in the produce section of a super market, the misters that spray water over the vegetables and fruit was determined to be the source of the outbreak.

You cannot get Legionaires by drinking water with the bacteria in it and penacillian is the most effective treatment. As most A/C units in these guest houses are split units and no cooling towers are used Legionaires is more than likely not an issue.

At last someone talks some sense. I also had many years experience working water treatment, and agree that legionairre's disease occurs in cooling tower type AC units, not the small split units used here, and is as likely as monoxide or phosgene gas - both ridiculous.

Mmmm

You need to catch up.. I think the thread consensus is likely it was pesticide or some other toxic compound mixed in drinking water containers. I was thinking probably an accident.

Until...the German man died in Phuket with severe vomiting as the only symptom...

[brahmburgers]

people on this thread are still postulating that the cause could have been 'an infection.'

Infections take time. For example, Legionnaires Disease has flu-like symptoms that take a week to two to become fatal, though it's most often not fatal.

The reported sicknesses and deaths happened in very brief spans of time. It sounds like poisoning, which brings the theory mill back to inhaling toxic gases (moderately likely) to drinking something like pesticide laden water (more likely). The toxic water theory is made stronger by the finding that the victims' stomach linings were blistered or otherwise highly irritated.

I too look forward to scientific findings from forensic and other investigations - in regard to these tragic deaths. However, one can't assume all plausible possibilities are being professionally investigated.

Mentions of a possible cover-up and gloss-over of the truth - or plain ineptitude on the part of investigators have merit. It is hoped investigators will do as thorough and professional a job as possible.

[CFIT]

Well, they can be forgiven, 16 pages is getting quote lengthly.

Just a recap, I've posted this before o this thread and again on the new thread on yet another body on Nai Harn beach , Phuket

but here is a synopsis of the deaths since April 1

( Not counting the young German Lad fond dead last week in Khao Lak whose companion is being held for murder )

3 deaths and 2 illnesses, recovered- have as a common thread , extreme vomiting with no other symptom, precluding influenza or other respiratory infections diarrhea reported only in one death; Norwegian male Eric Liuhagnen , 48; April 1st . Which would seem to knock out cholera or other ingested bacterial/viral maladies in the following deaths.

1) -April 1st ; Also on Phi Phi, BUT NOT at Laleena guest house, Norwegian man Eric Liuhagnen , 48 . The cause has yet to be determined but reported extreme diarrhea.( Different symptom from later deaths. )

2) -May 1st ; An un- ID'd male foreigner body found in the ocean off mainland Krabi.

( has tattoo of, "Mother" within heart.) Cause of death unknown, was wearing green pants.

3) - May 2nd Phi Phi . females Jill St. Onge, 27

4) and Julie Michelle Bergheim, 23, extreme vomiting, both die in hospital .

(Two illnessses- recovered, companions of above deceased, male Ryan Kells, 26 and female Karina Refsth, 20. Report extreme vomiting and chemical odor in adjoining rooms at Laleena guesthouse . )

5) - May 6; A Swiss female , Edis Jungen, 40 was found deceased on the beach in Krabi, ( Krabi is province Phi Phi island is in )apparently strangled. She has been agitated and claimed she was in danger before checking out of hotel, found next morning.

in shallow water early Thursday by a villager in Ao Nang bay.

6) May 14 Phuket; German man , Ernst Hermannweid, extreme vomiting.

Died en route to hospital

7) May 21 "Western" ( Caucasian ) man , multiple tattoos, found dead, Nai Yang Beach, Phuket . Dead approximately 7 days ,

Edited May 21, 2009 by CFIT

[sriracha john]

I think the thread consensus is likely it was pesticide or some other toxic compound mixed in drinking water containers. I was thinking probably an accident.

Just for the record, I am not a part of this "consensus".

[CFIT]

I think the thread consensus is likely it was pesticide or some other toxic compound mixed in drinking water containers. I was thinking probably an accident.

Just for the record, I am not a part of this "consensus".

Apologies for presumptuousness.

[CFIT]

people on this thread are still postulating that the cause could have been 'an infection.'

Infections take time. For example, Legionnaires Disease has flu-like symptoms that take a week to two to become fatal, though it's most often not fatal.

The reported sicknesses and deaths happened in very brief spans of time. It sounds like poisoning, which brings the theory mill back to inhaling toxic gases (moderately likely) to drinking something like pesticide laden water (more likely). The toxic water theory is made stronger by the finding that the victims' stomach linings were blistered or otherwise highly irritated.

I too look forward to scientific findings from forensic and other investigations - in regard to these tragic deaths. However, one can't assume all plausible possibilities are being professionally investigated.

Mentions of a possible cover-up and gloss-over of the truth - or plain ineptitude on the part of investigators have merit. It is hoped investigators will do as thorough and professional a job as possible.

Where do you find this info, please?

[sriracha john]

I think the thread consensus is likely it was pesticide or some other toxic compound mixed in drinking water containers. I was thinking probably an accident.

Just for the record, I am not a part of this "consensus".

Apologies for presumptuousness.

mai pen rai and I'm pleased you have identified Ms. Jungen as Swiss now.

Whatever is happening down there now, even if they ALL turn out to be unrelated to Miss Bergheim's and Miss St. Onge's tragedy, the numbers are going into an unprecedented area AFAIK.

Edited May 21, 2009 by sriracha john

[JohnGotti]

lol, is anyone actually going to go to phi phi island with all these mysterious deaths? something is clearly rotten in denmark. it will be interesting if they ever figure it out. maybe someone is poisioning farang and robbing them after they die.

[brahmburgers]

people on this thread are still postulating that the cause could have been 'an infection.' Infections take time. For example, Legionnaires Disease has flu-like symptoms that take a week to two to become fatal, though it's most often not fatal.

The reported sicknesses and deaths happened in very brief spans of time. It sounds like poisoning, which brings the theory mill back to inhaling toxic gases (moderately likely) to drinking something like pesticide laden water (more likely). The toxic water theory is made stronger by the finding that the victims' stomach linings were blistered or otherwise highly irritated.

I too look forward to scientific findings from forensic and other investigations - in regard to these tragic deaths. However, one can't assume all plausible possibilities are being professionally investigated.

Mentions of a possible cover-up and gloss-over of the truth - or plain ineptitude on the part of investigators have merit. It is hoped investigators will do as thorough and professional a job as possible.

Where do you find this info, please?

good question:

from Andamantimes

[/b]Phi Phi deaths: Preliminary autopsy report shows acute gastritis, heart failure

No conclusive answers in the preliminary autopsy report of Norwegian woman who died at Phi Phi last weekend. Published by Nadmane Sastarawat - 07/05/2009 - Modified 08/05/2009 The preliminary autopsy report of the Norwegian who died at Phi Phi island shows possible causes of the death. Inflammation of the lining of the stomach (acute gastritis) combined with severe dehydration and vomiting may turn out to be the official cause.

From page 8 of this thread. I now realize that the mention of inflammation may have been the reporter's speculation, though I seem to recall Bkk Post reporting the prelim coroner's report saying the same. Perhaps it's a case where; 'if something is repeated often enough, it starts to look like truth.' the closing phrase, "may turn out to be the cause" - is sloppy journalism, unless the reporter can attribute that statement to a professional who is directly involved with the case.

BTW, I resent that stupid phrase: "something is rotten in Denmark." taken from Shakespeare's Hamlet. I wouldn't doubt Shakespeare himself would regret having written it, if he'd known how it's been misconstrued. I'm Danish decent. Denmark has nothing to do with the mysterious sicknesses and deaths in Phi Phi and Krabi and Phuket. You could say, if you wanted wax poetic, something is rotten in those beach resorts, particularly in regard to the shoddy non-investigation by authorities there. If such sicknesses and deaths had occurred in Denmark, you can bet your left nut that Danish authorities would be diligently pursuing every lead to get to the bottom of it.

Edited May 22, 2009 by brahmburgers

[CFIT]

people on this thread are still postulating that the cause could have been 'an infection.' Infections take time. For example, Legionnaires Disease has flu-like symptoms that take a week to two to become fatal, though it's most often not fatal.

The reported sicknesses and deaths happened in very brief spans of time. It sounds like poisoning, which brings the theory mill back to inhaling toxic gases (moderately likely) to drinking something like pesticide laden water (more likely). The toxic water theory is made stronger by the finding that the victims' stomach linings were blistered or otherwise highly irritated.

I too look forward to scientific findings from forensic and other investigations - in regard to these tragic deaths. However, one can't assume all plausible possibilities are being professionally investigated.

Mentions of a possible cover-up and gloss-over of the truth - or plain ineptitude on the part of investigators have merit. It is hoped investigators will do as thorough and professional a job as possible.

Where do you find this info, please?

good question:

from Andamantimes

[/b]Phi Phi deaths: Preliminary autopsy report shows acute gastritis, heart failure

No conclusive answers in the preliminary autopsy report of Norwegian woman who died at Phi Phi last weekend. Published by Nadmane Sastarawat - 07/05/2009 - Modified 08/05/2009 The preliminary autopsy report of the Norwegian who died at Phi Phi island shows possible causes of the death. Inflammation of the lining of the stomach (acute gastritis) combined with severe dehydration and vomiting may turn out to be the official cause.

From page 8 of this thread. I now realize that the mention of inflammation may have been the reporter's speculation, though I seem to recall Bkk Post reporting the prelim coroner's report saying the same. Perhaps it's a case where; 'if something is repeated often enough, it starts to look like truth.' the closing phrase, "may turn out to be the cause" - is sloppy journalism, unless the reporter can attribute that statement to a professional who is directly involved with the case.

Thank you for that.

I can forgive the reporter's , " May turn out to be.." as acceptable as it isn't stated as fact, but conjecture from the reporter's view .

And I believe the report ( uh, make that the Andaman Times' report of the report ..) of prelim autopsy on Bergheim in Norwegian press is probably the only factual information on any details we've had access to and it only states,"..inflammation.."

Inflammation of the stomache is a far less severe symptom than actual blistering which would indicate something highly corrosive ingested , not just a poison and I hadn't heard the blistering reference before.

Just trying to keep what little facts we do know, straight .

Edited May 22, 2009 by CFIT

[NanLaew]

From the internet and therefore 100% unsubstantiated.

In Taiwan , a woman suddenly died unexpectedly with signs of bleeding

from her ears, nose, mouth & eyes. After a preliminary autopsy it was

diagnosed death due to arsenic poisoning death. Where did the arsenic

come from?

The police launched an in-depth and extensive investigation. A medical

school professor was invited to come to solve the case.

The professor carefully looked at the contents from the deceased's

stomach, in less than half an hour, the mystery was solved. The

professor said: 'The deceased did not commit suicide and neither was she

murdered, she died of accidental death due to ignorance!'

Everyone was puzzled, why accidental death? The arsenic is of the

U.S.military for carrying rice seedlings H Gao. The professor said:

'The arsenic is produced in the stomach of the deceased.' The deceased

used to take 'Vitamin C' everyday, which in itself is not a problem. The

problem was that she ate a large portion of shrimp/prawn during dinner.

Eating shrimp/prawn is not the problem that's why nothing happened to

her family ever though they took the same shrimp/prawn.

However at the same time the deceased also took 'vitamin C', that is

where the problem is!

Researchers at the University of Chicago in the United States , found

through experiments, food such as soft-shell shrimp/prawn contains a

much higher concentration of - five potassium arsenic compounds.

Such fresh food by itself has no toxic effects on the human

body!However, in taking 'vitamin C', due to the chemical reaction, the

original non-toxic - five potassium arsenic (As anhydride, also known as

arsenic oxide, the chemical formula for As205) changed to a three

potassium toxic arsenic (ADB arsenic anhydride), also known as

arsenictrioxide, a chemical formula (As203), which is commonly known as

arsenic to the public!

Arsenic poisoning have magma role and can cause paralysis to the small

blood vessels, "mercapto Jimei"??, inhibits the activity of the liver

and fat necrosis change Hepatic Lobules Centre, heart, liver,

kidney,intestine congestion, epithelial cell necrosis,

telangiectasia.Therefore, a person who dies of arsenic poisoning will

shows signs of bleeding from the ears, nose, mouth & eyes.

Therefore; as a precautionary measure,DO NOT not take shrimp/prawn when

taking 'vitamin C'.

Just another random theory I know, but without reading the last 5 pages of this thread, I assume that the official investigation is still looking for answers.

Edited May 22, 2009 by NanLaew

[Scott]

Or looking for ways to cover up the findings!

[brahmburgers]

Or looking for ways to cover up the findings!

Amen, bro. From the little bits of twisted info thus far (even the bits that have been subsequently denied), it's looking like a cover up and/or inept/incomplete investigation.

[anais]

From an earlier report:

"The guest house owner Choopit do not think that the deaths that happened within a day had any connection with the guest house. She have slept in room four and five herself in a total of three nights after the death without feeling any discomfort or have been sick."

I call BULLSHIT. No way, no how.

Condolences to the families. I hope that eventually the truth does come to light.

[Ragnarok]

link: LA family probes mystery tourist death on Phi Phi

“We want to be very careful not to speculate,” John said, but both he and Kells remain suspicious that the air conditioning carried a toxic gas. The engaged couple had noticed a strong odor typical of sewage.

[Briggsy]

If you want things done in Thailand, there's generally only one way.

Figure out how you can get a direct line to the most senior person you can. In a case like this you should be looking at a government minister or national police chief. They then exert pressure vertically downwards to get things moving.

Since this case involves the death of foreigners, it needs the involvement of the respective ministries from those countries to stress the importance of the case to their Thai counterparts.

[CFIT]

From the Los Altos article

"...Authorities dismissed the guesthouse’s air-conditioning system despite the fact that another female tourist took ill in the only other air-conditioned room where they were staying."

http://www.losaltosonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17619&mosmsg=Your%20comment%20will%20be%20checked%20before%20publishing.&Itemid=46

There's a bit of new info.

[Soupdragon]

Phi Phi Deaths: Fresh Checks on Guesthouse

A TEAM of investigators went to the Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi on Friday to probe the cause of the mysterious deaths of two women tourists on the holiday island.

The owner of the Laleena, Rat Chuped, said the team of about eight officers turned up without warning. She thought they were from the provincial Public Health office.

They took samples from ground-floor Rooms 4 and 5 at the guesthouse.

It would appear that these officers gave no notice they were coming and did not identify themselves to the owner. I wonder who they actually work for. Seems unlikely that Thai authorities would carry out such an investigation 3 weeks after the event, Unless of course the autopsy has turned up something and they are trying to confirm.

Full article from Phuketwan here.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Soupdragon

[Ragnarok]

From the Los Altos article

"...Authorities dismissed the guesthouse’s air-conditioning system despite the fact that another female tourist took ill in the only other air-conditioned room where they were staying."

http://www.losaltosonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17619&mosmsg=Your%20comment%20will%20be%20checked%20before%20publishing.&Itemid=46

There's a bit of new info.

You're right, that is new and I didn't notice it. That and the sewage smell are two new facts from this article. The a/c does not circulate air from the outside. However those two rooms would be the only ones that kept their windows closed because they have a/c. So if something came up from the drains, it would not be diluted with fresh air from open windows.

[CFIT]

From the Los Altos article

"...Authorities dismissed the guesthouse's air-conditioning system despite the fact that another female tourist took ill in the only other air-conditioned room where they were staying."

http://www.losaltosonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17619&mosmsg=Your%20comment%20will%20be%20checked%20before%20publishing.&Itemid=46

There's a bit of new info.

You're right, that is new and I didn't notice it. That and the sewage smell are two new facts from this article. The a/c does not circulate air from the outside. However those two rooms would be the only ones that kept their windows closed because they have a/c. So if something came up from the drains, it would not be diluted with fresh air from open windows.

Excellent point.

So we have a nasty fumes causing vomiting which could be the source of irritation to the stomach lining.

[brahmburgers]

From Phuketwan website, May 7 edition:

The room maid at the Laleena, who did not wish her name to be used, told her version of events for the first time today. She said the American couple arrived on Saturday about 11am and booked an air-conditioned room, Room 4. They had moved from another guesthouse on the island.

The couple seemed to sleep until about 8pm. The room maid said there was a notice in every room, advising people to call her telephone number if they had a problem.

She finished work at 8pm.

On Sunday morning, the maid, who stays at the guesthouse, found it strange that nobody had emerged, and checked with the security guard at premises opposite the Laleena.

He told her he had seen the American man make an appearance about 3am, and then later, had seen a couple. But he was not sure whether it was the Americans or the Norwegians, the maid said.

About 7am on Sunday, the American man opened the room door and asked the maid for help. He said: ''My girlfriend needs a doctor.'' Both Americans were not wearing clothes, she said, but the man was wrapped in a sheet, or a towel.

[faranginbkk]

If sewage gases came up through the pipes, I think this would easily have been recognized as 'sewage odour'. I am more likely to think of pesticides. Many Thai homes (mine included) and businesses are sprayed with pesticides to keep pests at bay. Pesticides not used in US and Europe anymore, but cheap. These have a 'chemical' smell that was noticed by the guests.

And the owners are likely not acknowledge it, since they will be blamed.

[brahmburgers]

I agree that pesticides could be involved. Hopefully, investigators will search all containers in and around the g.h. and test for such chemicals. This could include any places where used items are dumped - in the vicinity of the g.h., or anywhere on the island. If doing a thorough investigation, particularly of items thrown away, time is of the essence. Do investigators know this?

[geriatrickid]

Not a word of update from the authorities. The silence is disconcerting.

[CFIT]

If sewage gases came up through the pipes, I think this would easily have been recognized as 'sewage odour'. I am more likely to think of pesticides. Many Thai homes (mine included) and businesses are sprayed with pesticides to keep pests at bay. Pesticides not used in US and Europe anymore, but cheap. These have a 'chemical' smell that was noticed by the guests.

And the owners are likely not acknowledge it, since they will be blamed.

Ryan Kells a survivor, is reporting the smell of sewage. And if the rooms where people were sickened were the only 2 rooms with AC, thus blocking the rooms off from fresh air...

[Soupdragon]

With the speed of a striking slug Thai Authorities spring into action

Phuket Police Lead Laleena Forensics Probe

SPECIAL forensics task force of 15 police, led by a senior officer from Phuket, was involved in taking fresh samples from the Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi over the weekend.

Early in May American Jill St Onge, 27, and Norwegian Julie Bergheim, 22, fell ill while occupying adjoining ground-floor rooms 4 and 5 at the guesthouse, suffered similar vomiting attacks, and died within hours of each other at the holiday island's hospital.

Police General Nappadon Kantakanit told Phuketwan today that he assembled the latest investigation team, which included specialists from Phuket and Krabi provinces.

The return to the guesthouse for a complete forensics check came at the request of senior Royal Thai Police in Bangkok.

It is believed officials from the US and Norwegian embassies have been pressing for a resolution of the cause of death of the two young tourists as soon as possible.

''We checked the locality and the rooms where the women fell ill,'' General Nappadon said. ''We took away various spray cleaners and a vacuum cleaner, and the air-conditioning filters.''

The Governor of Krabi, Siwa Sirisaowalak, said he was not aware of the new police investigation. He has previously urged newspapers not to speculate about the cause of death, and to await the results of existing tests.

Krabi Governor not even in the loop but telling the media to back off, speaks volumes.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Soupdragon

[cmdream]

Not a word of update from the authorities. The silence is disconcerting.

Disconcerting for sure !! With the technology available today to coroners info about the cause of death should be released by now.

perhaps suicide is being considered ! It boggles the mind what is going on behind the closed doors in this case. Maybe the story will just go away, Mai pen rai.

[harrymand]

Not a word of update from the authorities. The silence is disconcerting.

Latest in the Norwegian newspaper VG: the Krabi police are saying that the poison who kill them was from fish or seafood. Did they eat fish or seafood?? No!!! The ortopsy must be done by another country but Thailand. If not........?

[brahmburgers]

Not a word of update from the authorities. The silence is disconcerting.

Disconcerting for sure !! With the technology available today to coroners info about the cause of death should be released by now.

perhaps suicide is being considered ! It boggles the mind what is going on behind the closed doors in this case. Maybe the story will just go away, Mai pen rai.

There may not be much going on behind closed doors - other than discussions of how to further delay the investigation and try to shield the tourism biz. If the policy of authorities in the region is to have these incidents fade away as soon as possible, then the following must happen:

A. lax and delayed investigation : already happening

B. no announcements re; developments (forensic / investigative) : happening now

C. every so often, a vague mention by some authority, such as; "it could have been something they ate, or too much alcohol, or drugs." ....designed to further sweep the episode under the carpet.

D. yet more delays by coroners and investigators. case in point: 8 weeks since the man died of mysterious causes on Phi Phi - and still no official announcement from forensics. Expect a longer delay re; the two women who died nearly a month ago. ...and what of the man found in the sea - still no identity?