Fake Degrees

[aitch52]

Mr H

I hope it all works out for you as I firmly believe you weren't the wrongdoer here. What is a degree anyway, a certificate showing you attended maybe 12 hours of lectures a week, 38 weeks of the year and 3 years and nine months of blowing your parents and the taxpayers money on booze and 3 months of cramming useless information into your rapidly decreasing brain cells for finals. All of which will be forgotten as soon as you pass the re-sit. What do I base these outrageous statements on, 5 years of housing students and frequent visits to the Students Union in the eighties. Posted tongue in cheek and no offence intended.

I sincerely wish you the very best and a happy outcome

Shippers

Edited May 11, 2009 by aitch52

[Scott]

I think a degree is much more than a series of hours in a class and a waste of parents' and taxpayers' money. It generally means a level of competence in a field. Whether or not a degree is necessary or not to teach in Thailand is questionable--especially if it is English and the person is a native speaker.

For the people who have spent a considerable amount of time and money getting that degree and find themselves being paid the same or less than a house painter, it is disappointing. It is most disappointing when they openly brag about having gotten their degree on Khao San Road.

The point is that fake documents are fraud. Convincing the MOE that you have a number of diplomas and getting them to accept them is quite a bit different.

Like a lot of crimes, in the past couple of years, this one has come home to roost for a number of people.

[PeaceBlondie]

No need to debate degrees vs. no degrees. We agree a fake degree is a crime.

[aussiestyle1983]

What is not agreed on is what is worse; submitting fake doccuments because you have been advised to by a place that you intend to work for and should count on to provide you with correct information, well, at least information that is lawful and will not make you end up behind bars, or, advising someone who intends to work for you, knowing that you are in a position that should give the correct advice, to obtain fake papers knowing that they could get in the shit for it.

I personally think the later is worse. Of course it is wrong to submit fake doccuments, but it is far worse for an employer to encourgae it (and especially dob someone in for taking their advice) IMO.

[Scott]

Make no mistake--I absolutely agree that it is really very immoral for any employer or person in an administrative position to every advise anyone to do something illegal--especially something with serious consequences. Personally, people that do that should have certain anotomical parts cut off with a dull knife. Administrators are in a position which often leads employees to think the advise/instructions are correct.

The problem and the reason I am putting the ownership on the employee is because of the deniability of administrative personnel. Unless they put it in writing, or say it in front of a bunch of people, it's going to be very hard to make them accountable. They are certainly wrong and ethically challenged.

Since most Admin will never be 'caught' or convicted, the ownership is on the employees--and forums like this--to get the word out that this is a potentially serious problem, with potentially serious consequences.

The OP has been kind enough to expose his shortcomings, hopefully to help and inform others. For that I have a great deal of respect for him.

[phaethon]

In today's Bangkok Post there was a piece about how police are nabbing people who turn up to pay traffic tickets for offences they committed years ago. In the article a motorist who turned up to pay a fine found he was wanted for dodging conscription years ago, it seems the BIB are starting to get the hang of computer systems and checking the central database. Once identified as an income stream, how long before bogus records start appearing?

When paying a traffic fine can end in your arrest

Bangkok Post 2009-05-11

Anyway, the OP could have found himself the victim of this new-found computer literacy, especially if it is extending to Immigration. Maybe his record of false documents languished unnoticed until someone at immigration this time actually checked the central police database instead of just saying they did.

Edited May 11, 2009 by phaethon

[Texpat]

Actions and consequences.

My parents taught me this lesson before I was five. Some people will never get it -- you know who you are.

[aussiestyle1983]

In today's Bangkok Post there was a piece about how police are nabbing people who turn up to pay traffic tickets for offences they committed years ago. In the article a motorist who turned up to pay a fine found he was wanted for dodging conscription years ago, it seems the BIB are starting to get the hang of computer systems and checking the central database. Once identified as an income stream, how long before bogus records start appearing?

When paying a traffic fine can end in your arrest

Bangkok Post 2009-05-11

Anyway, the OP could have found himself the victim of this new-found computer literacy, especially if it is extending to Immigration. Maybe his record of false documents languished unnoticed until someone at immigration this time actually checked the central police database instead of just saying they did.

It's about time. After all, that would normally happen anywhere in the world. It's like adding 1 plus 1? It should be that simple.

I know for a fact if I was wanted for murder and was the type who was doing a runner, I most definitely would not be going into a police station for any reason. Esepcially to pay a fine that would mean entering my name into a computer and possibly finding out other stuff...

That also just shows how stupid some people in Thailand are. Thinking that the cops cannot find out more about them when they go to pay a traffic fine...

[BigSnake]

WOW!! come after you five years later, sounds like the Immigration Police are on the war path, with all the IT on hand guess they don't have enough to do. Be warn ALL.

[roamer]

Thanks for being Honest and up front Mr Hippo.,,,,,

And I really hope everything works out ok for you.

Colino

In the UK it could have brought charges of Fraud and gaining money by deception.

Unless your an MP or in the House of Lords.

Edited May 14, 2009 by roamer

[phaethon]

^^Avatar^^ "A reptile dysfunction"... LOL

[YouYouYou]

Mr. Hippo, firstly, yer a stand up guy to put this thread on about yourself and I do hope it works out okay in the end. It's also amazing that this has come to bite you in the ass so long after the event. (keep all posted as to your outcome eh)

You often hear of stories of Farangs on fakes being nicked and everytime the employer gets off scot free. TIT ...there is no responsibility or accountability of these Thai employers, who most of the time are fully aware that it is fake from day one/ provided by the employer in the first place.

But, we all know using a fake degree is fraud and those who run the gauntlet I believe know that they are taking a risk. The police/immigration in general take a dim view of essentially being lied to.

As a bit of a wayward example:One friend, some 7 years ago reported to the police that his passport was stolen so he could apply for a new one at the UK embassy. He owed a Thai business partner money who was holding his passport as security (wrongly so as he was being cheated by his Thai partner, but that is aside the point). The Thai partner decided to take his passport to the police some weeks later and my friend was arrested and finally given 6 months in Prison. The police basically said 'you lied to us' about your passport ...that effectively was his charge considered as fraud.

'They' say something like 30% of foreign teachers in Thailand have a fake or no degree. that's a lot of risky people.

Be careful you crazy kids, just look at Mr. Hippos story ....it seems they're getting tough now.

[skybluestu]

Not having a degree isn't the same as having a fake degree. I don't have a degree and have never said I have, my employer knew from the very start I don't have a degree but I still got a WP last year and renewed without a problem just yesterday. Although many schools ask for a degree it is not illegal to be working without one and is not the same as passing off a fake degree as a real one!

Mr. Hippo, firstly, yer a stand up guy to put this thread on about yourself and I do hope it works out okay in the end. It's also amazing that this has come to bite you in the ass so long after the event. (keep all posted as to your outcome eh)

You often hear of stories of Farangs on fakes being nicked and everytime the employer gets off scot free. TIT ...there is no responsibility or accountability of these Thai employers, who most of the time are fully aware that it is fake from day one/ provided by the employer in the first place.

But, we all know using a fake degree is fraud and those who run the gauntlet I believe know that they are taking a risk. The police/immigration in general take a dim view of essentially being lied to.

As a bit of a wayward example:One friend, some 7 years ago reported to the police that his passport was stolen so he could apply for a new one at the UK embassy. He owed a Thai business partner money who was holding his passport as security (wrongly so as he was being cheated by his Thai partner, but that is aside the point). The Thai partner decided to take his passport to the police some weeks later and my friend was arrested and finally given 6 months in Prison. The police basically said 'you lied to us' about your passport ...that effectively was his charge considered as fraud.

'They' say something like 30% of foreign teachers in Thailand have a fake or no degree. that's a lot of risky people.

Be careful you crazy kids, just look at Mr. Hippos story ....it seems they're getting tough now.

[Loaded]

Not having a degree isn't the same as having a fake degree. I don't have a degree and have never said I have, my employer knew from the very start I don't have a degree but I still got a WP last year and renewed without a problem just yesterday. Although many schools ask for a degree it is not illegal to be working without one and is not the same as passing off a fake degree as a real one!

Did you have any complications due to the TL requirements? You mentioned on another thread a few months ago that imm had told your school their teachers would need TLs to extend visas/wps.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Loaded

[skybluestu]

Not having a degree isn't the same as having a fake degree. I don't have a degree and have never said I have, my employer knew from the very start I don't have a degree but I still got a WP last year and renewed without a problem just yesterday. Although many schools ask for a degree it is not illegal to be working without one and is not the same as passing off a fake degree as a real one!

Did you have any complications due to the TL requirements? You mentioned on another thread a few months ago that imm had told your school their teachers would need TLs to extend visas/wps.

A few months ago one of the Filipino teachers at my school said her housemate (Filipino teacher at a govt school) was refused an extension of her Non-Imm B visa as she didn't have a TL. So we asked the director at our school to ring the imm dept and ask about us needing one. They told him that they are now asking for a TL as well as the other documents when extending Non-Imm B visas. Our director has this week just received our waiver letters from the MOE in BKK and they are for 3 years, not the 2yr waiver I often read about so when I go to immigration in July I should be OK. BUT I know many people who have been to the same imm office recently and had their visa extended without a TL or waiver from the MOE. The TL or waiver letter isn't required when applying for a WP or WP extension, only at immigration. My WP was extended yesterday in about 5 minutes.

[skybluestu]

Not having a degree isn't the same as having a fake degree. I don't have a degree and have never said I have, my employer knew from the very start I don't have a degree but I still got a WP last year and renewed without a problem just yesterday. Although many schools ask for a degree it is not illegal to be working without one and is not the same as passing off a fake degree as a real one!

Did you have any complications due to the TL requirements? You mentioned on another thread a few months ago that imm had told your school their teachers would need TLs to extend visas/wps.

A few months ago one of the Filipino teachers at my school said her housemate (Filipino teacher at a govt school) was refused an extension of her Non-Imm B visa as she didn't have a TL. So we asked the director at our school to ring the imm dept and ask about us needing one. They told him that they are now asking for a TL as well as the other documents when extending Non-Imm B visas. Our director has this week just received our waiver letters from the MOE in BKK and they are for 3 years, not the 2yr waiver I often read about so when I go to immigration in July I should be OK. BUT I know many people who have been to the same imm office recently and had their visa extended without a TL or waiver from the MOE. The TL or waiver letter isn't required when applying for a WP or WP extension, only at immigration. My WP was extended yesterday in about 5 minutes.

Sorry, ignore some of the above, my director just came over with an update. The waiver letter he had was from the local MOE, not the MOE in BKK and our Japanese teacher was refused an extension of his Non-Imm B yesterday because of this. Although my WP was extended yesterday with no problems it looks like immigration will refuse my extension unless my director can get us letters from BKK, he will fly down there on Monday. But I don't think BKK MOE will issue a waiver for an applicant without a degree so this is where it could get interesting!!!

[Mario2008]

Waivers are from the Teachers Council, not the Ministry of Education.

[skybluestu]

Waivers are from the Teachers Council, not the Ministry of Education.

Sorry, my mistake. So the Teachers Council are nothing to do with the MOE? And work permits are issued without a TL being required, the problem only seems to be when you visit immigration?! So someone who is coining it in from all the daft culture course, teachers knowledge test, etc etc are paying off the immigration so that they ask for a TL or waiver when requesting an extension?! What a joke!

[otherstuff1957]

the Teachers Council are nothing to do with the MOE? And work permits are issued without a TL being required, the problem only seems to be when you visit immigration?! So someone who is coining it in from all the daft culture course, teachers knowledge test, etc etc are paying off the immigration so that they ask for a TL or waiver when requesting an extension?! What a joke!

If anyone wants to skip about 1000 pages of posts about Teachers' Licenses and Thai Culture Courses, just read the above^. I would say that skyblue has summed up the situation perfectly!

[YouYouYou]

Sry Sky Blue, I was under the impression that a degree (of any sorts) was a minimum requirement to teach in Thailand. I was only under this impression as the 3 places I have worked in 6 years, ALL refuse applicants without a degree; one was a government University and two private Prathom schools. Furthermore, I also have to submit a copy of my degree and transcript periodically to obtain my teachers licence and without that (at our local office) you do not get it.

Also Sky Blue, I agree with you that a degree does not make you 'educated' per se, but it certainly offers a prospective employer a guide that you are capable academically ....afterall, teaching requires you to be academic yeah? Yes, I also felt wise enough before I got my degree but it certainly helped me doing a degree with understanding my own English language.

Anyway, this thread has gone a bit off topic ......hows Hippo doing with his plight? Any reply yet Hippo?

[skybluestu]

Sry Sky Blue, I was under the impression that a degree (of any sorts) was a minimum requirement to teach in Thailand. I was only under this impression as the 3 places I have worked in 6 years, ALL refuse applicants without a degree; one was a government University and two private Prathom schools. Furthermore, I also have to submit a copy of my degree and transcript periodically to obtain my teachers licence and without that (at our local office) you do not get it.

Also Sky Blue, I agree with you that a degree does not make you 'educated' per se, but it certainly offers a prospective employer a guide that you are capable academically ....afterall, teaching requires you to be academic yeah? Yes, I also felt wise enough before I got my degree but it certainly helped me doing a degree with understanding my own English language.

Anyway, this thread has gone a bit off topic ......hows Hippo doing with his plight? Any reply yet Hippo?

I can only speak from personal experience and my experience is that you can be legally employed as a teacher and be issued with a work permit without having a degree. Yes, many places do ask for a degree but many places accept applicants without a degree, do you really think there are enough degree holders here in Thailand to fill all the teaching positions? And there are some very good teachers out there who don't have degrees, should they all be fired? I was offered a good job after finishing my 2yr diploma back in the UK 15 yrs ago which I accepted and I'm glad I did, instead of getting in a lot of debt I gained valuable work experience and ended up having people with degrees working for me. The only time I've ever regretted not doing a degree is since I've been here as it would give me peace of mind even though I'm, so far, doing OK without one. I teach English conversation to 9-13 yr olds, do I really need to have a degree in order to do that? Colleagues have told me that the previous teacher before me often used to go into school late and hungover stinking of alcohol and one a few years ago died of a drug overdose while on a trip to Laos, both had degrees but were they good teachers?!

I've read the teachers council's requirements and on there it does say you must have at least a bachelors degree but I currently work at a private prathom school and just had my WP renewed. I have never claimed to have a degree and my boss is aware I don't have one and doesn't care, he's happy with me. I have only ever submitted my diploma when asked to supply documents for WP & visa extension and have not had a problem yet and the director of my school visited BKK last week and came back with a waiver letter from the teachers council which is good for another 3 yrs.

The end.

Yes, any update from Mr H?

[mr_hippo]

Yes, any update from Mr H?

My trial is on June 11th, I am out on 100,000 Baht bail. The lawyer has been the family's lawyer for many years and he expects a small fine only. Me? My moods swing from 'small fine' to 'prison sentence and deportation'. I am expecting the best but fearing the worst!

[beano2274]

Please keep us all posted about how it goes.

Fingers crossed.

[ucantbeserious]

a few curious things in the story...

is your lawyer any good?? sure??

what is the charge? it sounds like a civil/criminal offence not an immigration offence.

why aren't regular police prosecuting?

i query this because of a prior experience of mine with being arrested (for drunk driving),

the scam was that you are held in the cells for a bail payment (they lend it to you for 10,000 baht fee),

next day i was fined a few thousand baht by the court ( a kinda quickie court where you just stand at a window talking to the "judge').

then scam 2 was now that you break the law of thailand you go to immigration police detention centre.

held there for an afternoon while trying to find the big boss and pay him a bribe to let me out.

it was at his discretion as to what to do with me the prisoner.

(prosecute, deport etc).

i would be worried about it not being finished when you have been fined.

are they holding your passport?

[Phatcharanan]

a few curious things in the story...

is your lawyer any good?? sure??

what is the charge? it sounds like a civil/criminal offence not an immigration offence.

why aren't regular police prosecuting?

i query this because of a prior experience of mine with being arrested (for drunk driving),

the scam was that you are held in the cells for a bail payment (they lend it to you for 10,000 baht fee),

next day i was fined a few thousand baht by the court ( a kinda quickie court where you just stand at a window talking to the "judge').

then scam 2 was now that you break the law of thailand you go to immigration police detention centre.

held there for an afternoon while trying to find the big boss and pay him a bribe to let me out.

it was at his discretion as to what to do with me the prisoner.

(prosecute, deport etc).

i would be worried about it not being finished when you have been fined.

are they holding your passport?

I believe they are holding his passport.

It's a criminal offence, not civil.

If past cases are anything to go by then deportation seems to be the eventual outcome for this type of offence.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Phatcharanan

[YouYouYou]

Gawd blimey Hippo, lots of luck on Thursday and I hope it is the 'fine option' ...let us all know the outcome shortly after.

P.S. GL sky blue too ..yes, yes,yes ...I've also known many a degree teacher that is useless too LOL.

[twschw]

It would be interesting to know what the official charge is?

[beano2274]

Seems that Mr Hippo is not available to comment on how things went, is this a bad sign?

[rixalex]

Seems that Mr Hippo is not available to comment on how things went, is this a bad sign?

He's commented on this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hippo-s-Day-Court-t272232.html

[beano2274]

Seems that Mr Hippo is not available to comment on how things went, is this a bad sign?

He's commented on this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hippo-s-Day-Court-t272232.html

Thanks for the link, great reading