Pm Rejects Daad Claims Songkran Rioting Planned By Govt

[animatic]

Pheu Thai Party MP Jatuporn Promphan had on Thursday said Abhisit and Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban were not in the cars that were attacked by red-shirted protesters at the Interior Ministry.

<snip for brevity>

He said former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would not phone in to the event but that he, Veera, would expose the truth that Abhisit was not in the bulletproof car as he claimed.

Jatuporn seems to believe, that just because he claims the PM wasn't in the car, it makes the actual attack OK ? His vision of justice & true democracy seems to include the right of his followers to attack cars like this. Scary but revealing too.

Why can't he admit, his people got out-of-control, or were instructed and incited to do this ? Oh, that's right, they weren't his people at all, but soldiers dressed-up in red-shirts, or alien lizards, erm ... erm

Black is now white, hot is now cold, in Thaksin's World !

Jatupon's point is the scene was set up by Abhisit's people to have something violence so the State of Emergency sounded right, and the reds fell into that trap.

Abhisit called 12th April an off day. Most reds left Victory Monument (they blocked one day if I'm not wrong). No one understands why Abhisit declared SOE.

The mess at Pattaya was over. The reds came back to Bangkok.

So Jatupon says it was a trap, which the red-shirts fell into, therefore it was his followers who attacked the car, which they believed the PM was in, and they somehow makes them blameless for the act of violence ?

Face it, the red-shirts chose to attack the car, and were filmed doing so, which they believed had the PM inside,

having previously been incited to 'get' the PM.

The red-shirts thus chose to stop their legitimate peaceful protest, and became a rioting mob,

in the name of what they were told was democracy.

If this was a trap, Jatupon and Thaksin led them straight into it, perhaps they might apologise for their poor leadership ? Or perhaps not.

Trap or not they did the act and regardless whather Abhisit Was or WAS NOT in the car,

they THOUGH he was and THEN ATTACKED the car.

That is enough to convict in most all courts.

Crazy for sure. And disqualifies them from EVER getting control of the country to run as they choose.

I wander how Jutaporn can still be in the congress at this point,;

Oh yes he is there with the child rapist and conspirator to murder...TIT

[justanothercybertosser]

exactly, such pics dosn't say so much nor proof any red or other colour delinquency. i think that is what koo wanted to demonstrate. she is great in doing it.

2nd step would be now to bring real waterproof evidence of the red super violence on songkran. violating traffic laws, yes, that is documentated, but more?

Just curious if you, koo and others who support the redshirt cause would give the same benefit of the doubt to those wearing yellow shirts?

Personally, the question here for me is not if the Red Shirts are entirely peaceful, or not. They clearly are not. Both Red and Yellow have very violent elements, and it is a moot point which group may have caused more death and injury under their opponents. This discussion here is a reflection of the inane sphere Thai politics finds itself today, and the utter idiocy of the argumentation the public debate that is led today.

The question here is more about the double standards, which are obviously applied. While this government demonizes the Red Shirts, even Abhisit personally paid visits to the Yellow Shirts, once even stopped an ongoing dispersal by police, and several MP's from the Democrats have been/are leaders of the PAD, and speakers on the stages. This government has been more than evasive on Yellow Shirt violence, Abhisit's standard answer is "that this has to be processed by the law", while at the same time exaggereating Red Shirt violence. He has accused recently the Red Shirt leaders of not accepting when they have done something wrong, but at the same time, Abhisit himself is guilty of the same, by until now not having accepted that his personal support for PAD last year might have contributed to the impressions of double standards under the Red Shirts, and that the use of the Blue Shirts, who have initiated the violence in Pattaya, has no legal base whatsoever.

It might be a bit more helpful if the discussion is about political message, and there the Red Shirts have more than a bit to contribute (if we leave the constant belittling from the side of the Yellow supporters aside), than concentrating on the violence, of which both groups are equally guilty of.

[hammered]

Strange how when quite number of ex-TRT, recent Thaksin supporters, red sympathisers and even a couple of red leaders all admit that the Songkhran violence was wrong, bad tactics and dedtructive for the movment that we still find a few dyed in the wool on here.

When those on your side fess up you know saying it didnt happen that way is a lost cause. The reds seem to be splitting as has been analysed already with the more extreme side in total denial and relying on pure faith as they havent yet produced any evidence to challenge the view the majoirty of the country have that the Songkhran event was a red riot. They are even missing the opportunity to use the lost control and temoers flared arguement.

Edited to add: it is sad because the reds do have something to say but they are losing that in an obsession witrh extreme conspiracy theories and the coming home to roost of unholy alliances with others who have different agendas.

Edited May 12, 2009 by hammered

[ThNiner]

Personally, the question here for me is not if the Red Shirts are entirely peaceful, or not. They clearly are not. Both Red and Yellow have very violent elements, and it is a moot point which group may have caused more death and injury under their opponents. This discussion here is a reflection of the inane sphere Thai politics finds itself today, and the utter idiocy of the argumentation the public debate that is led today.

To have a meaningful discussion about the treatment by the gov't, you need to look at the behaviors of the two groups fairly. If these two groups did different things, why should both of them have to be treated the same? It's really utter idiocy to say that it's moot point to discuss the magnitude of the violence of these two groups, and then claim that double standard is being applied. Would you punish viloators of traffic law the same as murderes? Utter idiocy.

[ThNiner]

the violence, of which both groups are equally guilty of.

Utter lunacy.

[justanothercybertosser]

When those on your side fess up you know saying it didnt happen that way is a lost cause. The reds seem to be splitting as has been analysed already with the more extreme side in total denial and relying on pure faith as they havent yet produced any evidence to challenge the view the majoirty of the country have that the Songkhran event was a red riot. They are even missing the opportunity to use the lost control and temoers flared arguement.

The Reds have been many times predicted to be "splitting" or to be just before its demise. Constant squabbling within the Red Shirts is just exaggerated, but this movement is far from splitting, or from losing substantial support. This is wishful thinking - just wait and see.

[ThNiner]

just wait and see.

So you are one of those who are in the know then? Or that's just wishful thinking on your part?

[justanothercybertosser]

Would you punish viloators of traffic law the same as murderes? Utter idiocy.

Thanks for making my point.

Yellow shirts have killed people, and some of the were killed in front of cameras. We are not talking about traffic violations here. Red Shirts have killed people. The numbers game does not apply here - both are groups with a very violent streak, and will inflict more violence and death. Lets play the numbers game after the end of the conflict, and not in the middle of it.

[ThNiner]

Would you punish viloators of traffic law the same as murderes? Utter idiocy.

Thanks for making my point.

Yellow shirts have killed people, and some of the were killed in front of cameras.

What? Who have they killed? Is that your today's truth (or truth today)? Are you Jatuporn in disguise?

[hammered]

When those on your side fess up you know saying it didnt happen that way is a lost cause. The reds seem to be splitting as has been analysed already with the more extreme side in total denial and relying on pure faith as they havent yet produced any evidence to challenge the view the majoirty of the country have that the Songkhran event was a red riot. They are even missing the opportunity to use the lost control and temoers flared arguement.

The Reds have been many times predicted to be "splitting" or to be just before its demise. Constant squabbling within the Red Shirts is just exaggerated, but this movement is far from splitting, or from losing substantial support. This is wishful thinking - just wait and see.

If they are not splitting that just means the ascendency of the extreme that will resort to anything to get what they want without ever compromising. Compromise is the art of forming a consensus by dropping certain demands and that always means abandoning some of your extreme groups. If that doesnt happen it means violence or becomes about victoy and defeat and as this struggle isnt pure but involves an intra-elite power struggle too and the country is split more regionally than on class it has very deep potential repercussions.

Considering the reactionary forces on all sides of the struggle offer no national solution, talking and negotiation would be preferable to more violence imho.

[justanothercybertosser]

Would you punish viloators of traffic law the same as murderes? Utter idiocy.

Thanks for making my point.

Yellow shirts have killed people, and some of the were killed in front of cameras.

What? Who have they killed? Is that your today's truth (or truth today)? Are you Jatuporn in disguise?

The killed Narongsak, beat him to death, during the fight at Makhawan at Sept. 2nd.

They killed one drunk man at their barricades.

There was one corpse found in a plastic bag at Don Muang airport after they have left. The corpse is still unidentified, but the time of death was during the occupation.

Those are only the deaths that can be proven to have been done by Yellow Shirts, there are a few more alleged cases, but so far, lacking corpses, nothing can be proven (making corpses disappear is usual in Thailand, as you should know).

And yes, Red Shirts have killed several people as well.

[justanothercybertosser]

If they are not splitting that just means the ascendency of the extreme that will resort to anything to get what they want without ever compromising. Compromise is the art of forming a consensus by dropping certain demands and that always means abandoning some of your extreme groups. If that doesnt happen it means violence or becomes about victoy and defeat and as this struggle isnt pure but involves an intra-elite power struggle too and the country is split more regionally than on class it has very deep potential repercussions.

Considering the reactionary forces on all sides of the struggle offer no national solution, talking and negotiation would be preferable to more violence imho.

Yes, i agree with this. But i wish your posts would reflect more of this view, instead of mostly accusing the Red Shirts, while leaving aside the faults of the government, which has more than contributed to the violence.

[ThNiner]

The killed Narongsak, beat him to death, during the fight at Makhawan at Sept. 2nd.

They killed one drunk man at their barricades.

There was one corpse found in a plastic bag at Don Muang airport after they have left. The corpse is still unidentified, but the time of death was during the occupation.

I don't believe any of these. Where's your evidence? At least give us some links to pieces of news that covered these. I'm sure your Dtsation was operating at those times, they must have got something surely. Or all these were just what Jatuporn told you?

lacking corpses, nothing can be proven

Yeah, shocking isn't it that none of your claims can be proven?

Edited May 12, 2009 by ThNiner

[justanothercybertosser]

The killed Narongsak, beat him to death, during the fight at Makhawan at Sept. 2nd.

They killed one drunk man at their barricades.

There was one corpse found in a plastic bag at Don Muang airport after they have left. The corpse is still unidentified, but the time of death was during the occupation.

I don't believe any of these. Where's your evidence? At least give us some links to pieces of news that covered these. I'm sure your Dtsation was operating at those times, they must have got something surely. Or all these were just what Jatuporn told you?

lacking corpses, nothing can be proven

Yeah, shocking isn't it that none of your claims can be proven?

Just go through the old threads on this subject, i am tired of cutting and pasting the same articles over and over again. Or use the search functions on google, or the relevant newspapers.

In many ways you yellow supporters here on the forum are worse than Koo82 and her Red Shirt propaganda. At least she is polite while posting, and refrains from ad hominem attacks on posters she disagrees with, while you seem to be unable to restrict yourself to reasonable posts without resorting to insulting behavior.

For you people it seems not to enough to be somewhere in the middle ground - you only know extremes, and see the situation in Black and White, Good and Bad, and anybody that does not agree with your sanitized view on the PAD is treated with bad manners and impoliteness. Very sad.

[ThNiner]

Just go through the old threads on this subject, i am tired of cutting and pasting the same articles over and over again. Or use the search functions on google, or the relevant newspapers.

Yeah, it's that easy. So why don't you just kindly search them for us once more? I'm sure it's not that tiring.

In many ways you yellow supporters here on the forum are worse than Koo82 and her Red Shirt propaganda. At least she is polite while posting, and refrains from ad hominem attacks on posters she disagrees with, while you seem to be unable to restrict yourself to reasonable posts without resorting to insulting behavior.

For you people it seems not to enough to be somewhere in the middle ground - you only know extremes, and see the situation in Black and White, Good and Bad, and anybody that does not agree with your sanitized view on the PAD is treated with bad manners and impoliteness. Very sad.

Sorry, I didn't realize that mentioning Jatuporn and ROTFL can be considered rude.

[Cayenne]

In many ways you yellow supporters here on the forum are worse than Koo82 and her Red Shirt propaganda. At least she is polite while posting, and refrains from ad hominem attacks on posters she disagrees with, while you seem to be unable to restrict yourself to reasonable posts without resorting to insulting behavior.

So you admit that she is posting propaganda then? If we agree that the point of these postings is to find the truth via facts and she is posting propaganda, then no matter how polite her intentions are she is still spreading lies.

[justanothercybertosser]

Sorry, I didn't realize that mentioning Jatuporn and ROTFL can be considered rude.

Sorry, but i will not continue in this infantile piss contest. Grow up first, and i might be willing to take up the discussion again.

[ThNiner]

In many ways you yellow supporters here on the forum are worse than Koo82 and her Red Shirt propaganda. At least she is polite while posting, and refrains from ad hominem attacks on posters she disagrees with, while you seem to be unable to restrict yourself to reasonable posts without resorting to insulting behavior.

So you admit that she is posting propaganda then? If we agree that the point of these postings is to find the truth via facts and she is posting propaganda, then no matter how polite her intentions are she is still spreading lies.

Good catch.

[justanothercybertosser]

In many ways you yellow supporters here on the forum are worse than Koo82 and her Red Shirt propaganda. At least she is polite while posting, and refrains from ad hominem attacks on posters she disagrees with, while you seem to be unable to restrict yourself to reasonable posts without resorting to insulting behavior.

So you admit that she is posting propaganda then? If we agree that the point of these postings is to find the truth via facts and she is posting propaganda, then no matter how polite her intentions are she is still spreading lies.

Of course she is posting propaganda, i have never doubted this. Yet she is not the only one doing this here, the vast majority of posters, apart from a few exceptions, are guilty of the same.

At least she is polite while doing this, and so i have no problems with what she posts. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinions. Nobody though has the right to belittle, mob or treat others with disrespect the way the yellow mob here does, especially to Koo82.

Nevertheless, Koo82 has posted more than a few photos that do prove that violence was inflicted against Red Shirts, which though are ignored by the cyber lynch mob, and has, apart from the propaganda, also contributed to the diversity of the discussion, which is obviously not appreciated by the extremists of the yellow side. And she has refrained from the ad hominem attacks which many posters have used against her.

But manners do not appear to be appreciated here.

Edited May 12, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[ThNiner]

Sorry, I didn't realize that mentioning Jatuporn and ROTFL can be considered rude.

Sorry, but i will not continue in this infantile piss contest. Grow up first, and i might be willing to take up the discussion again.

OK. So no evidence then.

[Plus]

Reds are being villified not for one random act of violence, but for sustained, directed campaign to overthrow the state via use of force.

[Insight]

In many ways you yellow supporters here on the forum are worse than Koo82 and her Red Shirt propaganda. At least she is polite while posting, and refrains from ad hominem attacks on posters she disagrees with, while you seem to be unable to restrict yourself to reasonable posts without resorting to insulting behavior.

For you people it seems not to enough to be somewhere in the middle ground - you only know extremes, and see the situation in Black and White, Good and Bad, and anybody that does not agree with your sanitized view on the PAD is treated with bad manners and impoliteness. Very sad.

Oh right. She's polite. All is forgiven then.

[Plus]

Of course she is posting propaganda, i have never doubted this. ...

At least she is polite while doing this, and so i have no problems with what she posts. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinions.

Propaganda is deliberate distortion of truth, and I abhor it whether done it polite or confrontation manner. It shows extreme disrespect to fellow forum members.

In Koo's defence - she probably truly believes in what she says, the source of the lies is not her.

[justanothercybertosser]

Reds are being villified not for one random act of violence, but for sustained, directed campaign to overthrow the state via use of force.

And so has the PAD done.

PAD has had, in their after coup incarnation used violence increasingly, and their admitted aim is "New Politics", which is a overthrow of the democratic system of Thailand.

Red has used violence as well, and tries to overthrow the status quo, what they define as "amartayathipatai".

The question here in the end is which political philosophy one prefers for Thailand. I do admittedly prefer a western style democracy (without Thaksin, to be clear here). I abhor equally the violent means both sides employ, and hope that the social conflict can be solved without anymore violence.

The aims of the yellow shirts are much further away from what i believe, than many of the aims of the Red Shirts. Nevertheless, i do accept that much within the Red Shirts is very wrong too. Therefore i do not consider myself as a Red Shirt supporter. Unfortunately there is no middle ground existing (and the white shirts are no middle ground - they are just a state propaganda tool, completely ineffectual, and will disappear soon).

[ThNiner]

Reds are being villified not for one random act of violence, but for sustained, directed campaign to overthrow the state via use of force.

And so has the PAD done.

PAD has had, in their after coup incarnation used violence increasingly,

Yeah, keep saying it without any supporting evidence will make it true. Yeah.

[Plus]

PAD has had, in their after coup incarnation used violence increasingly, and their admitted aim is "New Politics", which is a overthrow of the democratic system of Thailand.

PAD took over the govt house and later the airport wihout use of violence, simply pushing numbers of people forward.

Reds were at that stage during pre-Songkran blockades, annoying but peaceful and non-violent. Songkran has changed all that.

And "new politics" proposal is NOT an overthrow of the democratic system, it was an idea for the society to discuss.

[sriracha john]

But manners do not appear to be appreciated here.

that's not the only ground rule that is overlooked here.

Rule # 26 is a good example, right?

[Cayenne]

In many ways you yellow supporters here on the forum are worse than Koo82 and her Red Shirt propaganda. At least she is polite while posting, and refrains from ad hominem attacks on posters she disagrees with, while you seem to be unable to restrict yourself to reasonable posts without resorting to insulting behavior.

So you admit that she is posting propaganda then? If we agree that the point of these postings is to find the truth via facts and she is posting propaganda, then no matter how polite her intentions are she is still spreading lies.

Of course she is posting propaganda, i have never doubted this. Yet she is not the only one doing this here, the vast majority of posters, apart from a few exceptions, are guilty of the same.

At least she is polite while doing this, and so i have no problems with what she posts. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinions. Nobody though has the right to belittle, mob or treat others with disrespect the way the yellow mob here does, especially to Koo82.

Nevertheless, Koo82 has posted more than a few photos that do prove that violence was inflicted against Red Shirts, which though are ignored by the cyber lynch mob, and has, apart from the propaganda, also contributed to the diversity of the discussion, which is obviously not appreciated by the extremists of the yellow side. And she has refrained from the ad hominem attacks which many posters have used against her.

But manners do not appear to be appreciated here.

Propaganda is a one-sided version of the truth. I'm sure that there are many moderates on this forum that are willing to concede Koo82 did make some interesting points but at the same time she has to stop playing the role of red-shirt media mouthpiece because all she is doing is just spewing propaganda without any solid arguments to back them up. For example, posting hundreds of photos without any factual reference would only put her in the same credibility rating as Jatuporn (that is, zilch). If there had been the same PAD extremists posting such BS propaganda people here would attack it too.

On the other hand, if she had put forth some logical arguments such as why the red shirt movement is more than just about Thaksin and perhaps even concede that some of people in the red shirt movement have gotten out of hand (i.e. the violence on Songkran, the nitpicking of whether Abhisit was in the car or not, etc.), she would appear to more moderate and be treated with more respect.

Am I hoping for too much here?

[justanothercybertosser]

Yeah, keep saying it without any supporting evidence will make it true. Yeah.

here are just a few links, you can do the rest:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...word=Don+Mueang

http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/22/opi...on_30084032.php

http://english.siamdailynews.com/asia-news...ng-airport.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caQUvzQKeUc...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s_FUm49v08...feature=related

etc.

[sriracha john]

the very first link is very conclusive...

The dead man found "murdered" in an empty warehouse at Don Mueang Airport might have been a member of the security force for the People's Alliance for Democracy

==========================

There's no point, ThNiner... these cases of yellow shirt attacks of which he speaks have all been "finalized" beyond any doubt, eg. the blue truck, the drunken Red demonstrator that died, etc.

That no one has even been charged, let alone convicted, let alone connected to the yellow shirts is besides his point.