Jingthing Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) In a fully working and functioning democracy, this would be true. Yes, look at the total power for LIFE that Chavez of Venezuela was able to accomplish through hardball so called "democratic" methods and you will see clearly what Thaksin was up to here. It was painful to remove him but if he had accepted his fate and his guilt, Thailand would be in a much better place now. As it is, VILLAIN is too weak a word for this man. Edited May 13, 2009 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Never supported it. All that the meddling generals have achieved until now is set Thailand back years, scare away tourism and business investment, and reduce Thailand's standing abroad to the level of a South American banana republic. The population is divided, and there are endless demonstrations and riots.Thaksin had his problems but the way to get rid of him was the ballot box. Hyperbole at it worst. There is not a single fact in your statements. Business investment and tourism would be down anyway, there is no way to say how much, if any is due to the political instability. As far as a divided population, that is only in the imagination of the people like you that think Thaksin is actually a true populist and not actually the patron of a bunch of pissed feudal lords that have mobilized their clients into civil disobedience. The “endless demonstrations and riots” is an absolutely ludicrous statement that ignores the reality of the situation. They couldn't get out by the ballot box, because he controlled the people that control the elections. When will you realize that. TH Totally agree with and again emphasize the final words "They couldn't get out by the ballot box, because he controlled the people that control the elections. When will you realize that." In fact it's two points: - He controlled the people who control the elections (The Election Commission, etc.) - Massive vote buying and manipulation of the uninformed rural poor (how low can you go, manipulation of poor people!) (And today the Red shirts are trying to convince us that the rural poor just want democracy. AGin manipulation of the poor who (with all deep respect) don't even understand what the word democracy means, if they did then many of they would not quickly sell their votes - again nasty anipulation of he poor! My view is: - Development of strong democracy in Thailand, with the power of the ballot box strong and uncompromised is sadly many years away. - Achieving that state will be a long and very bumpy road and unfortunately the poor will probably suffer during this evolution. - Economy will unfortunately suffer during the evolution, and again this is very sad for the people at survival level. - Until the middle classes speak up and get courageous then nothing will change, and the current bunch of totally incapable thieves, leeches and thugs we call politicians are not going to give up their access to raping the country without a fight. - Until the middle classes get courageous and demand change then honest, capable, ethical and sincere people will not want to have any part in the current nasty games which we see unfold before our eyes every day, with totally incapable unethical leeches and thugs openly taking care of themselves and their cronies and doing nothing to develop a civil society with equal opportunity for all Thais. - Until strong democracy is achieved and corruption is massively reduced we unfortunately need a 'watchdog' to remove some people. - If the military had not played the 'watchdog' card in 2006, then it frightens me to think where Thailand would be today under 'taxsin the dictator', probably well down the road to being another Burma with dictator taxsin at the helm with his brothers, brothers in law, cousins etc., all heading the police, army, major ministries etc. (Already mostly in place when taxsin was removed.) Plus freedom of speech / the press even further eroded, more intimidation / conrol of the judiciary. I say again, it frightens me. But, if the military is the 'watchdog' then we need to hope that the military are the nice guys. Without a powerful watchdog helping, then the only way to remove corrupt people like taxsin would be: - Non-violent People Power gaining such a force that there is no possible way the dictator could continue - somehow this seems unliklely in Thailand. - Blood shed with the middle classes under the guidance of a credible, capable and clean leader, taking up arms and violently taking power away from the current leeches and thugs we call politicians. Not a nice option. No perfect answers, but somehow I'll vote for the military to continue their watchdog role until it's simply not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsparrow Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Great points! "scorecard" "rixalex" Allow me to give sample of some chief of Department positions Thaksin gave to his family or his police close friends who blindly work for him: 1. Royal Thai Army (Headed by his brother Chaiyasit Shin..) 2. Election Commission (Police friend) 3. Anti Money Laundering Office, Min. of Justice (Police friend who even investigate Mr. Chuan Leakpai' mom asset for no couse except an alleaged informant letter) 4. National Intelligence Service (Police friend) 5. Department of Special Investigation, Min. of Justice (Police friend) 6. Office of the Narcotics Control Board, Min. of Justice (Police friend) 7. Several other higher position on the bureaucratic rank and file such as Permanent Secretary of Ministry of Justice (Somchai Wongsawat, his in law) etc.. + Never allow the proess to appoint the Anti Corruption Committee + Several years Thai Airways monopolised contract for "How Come" his son company. You see the big TV screen in front of TG building? How Come runs that along with all other PR event. Oh, how come indeed!! LOL "How Come" printed election adver poster for Phalang Prachachon Party. The printer name was on the poster, no secret, but many ignor.. Edited May 13, 2009 by oldsparrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) The political divisions here among us (mostly) expats mirrors the political division in Thailand. I can only conclude we haven't seen the bottom of this yet. Speaking more selfishly, the continuing deterioration of Thailand towards become a terminally failed state threatens expats here directly. Do you really want to live in a failed state, and how bad does it have to get for you to care? Of course they could boot us all out, and then we don't have to think about it ... Edited May 13, 2009 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsparrow Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The political divisions here among us (mostly) expats mirrors the political division in Thailand. I can only conclude we haven't seen the bottom of this yet. Speaking more selfishly, the continuing deterioration of Thailand towards become a terminally failed state threatens expats here directly. Do you really want to live in a failed state, and how bad does it have to get for you to care? Of course they could boot us all out, and then we don't have to think about it ... sir, I am a Thai gov officer, of all foreign diplomats I work with in Thailand , I found NO western diplomat (EU, other Anglo-American) who like Thaksin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) The political divisions here among us (mostly) expats mirrors the political division in Thailand. I can only conclude we haven't seen the bottom of this yet. Speaking more selfishly, the continuing deterioration of Thailand towards become a terminally failed state threatens expats here directly. Do you really want to live in a failed state, and how bad does it have to get for you to care? Of course they could boot us all out, and then we don't have to think about it ... sir, I am a Thai gov officer, of all foreign diplomats I work with in Thailand , I found NO western diplomat (EU, other Anglo-American) who like Thaksin. OK, sounds good. But I think you will find among the general expat population here, many foreigners do like Thaksin, though it is clear now they are definitely a minority. Edited May 13, 2009 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Never supported it. All that the meddling generals have achieved until now is set Thailand back years, scare away tourism and business investment, and reduce Thailand's standing abroad to the level of a South American banana republic. The population is divided, and there are endless demonstrations and riots.Thaksin had his problems but the way to get rid of him was the ballot box. Hyperbole at it worst. There is not a single fact in your statements. Business investment and tourism would be down anyway, there is no way to say how much, if any is due to the political instability. As far as a divided population, that is only in the imagination of the people like you that think Thaksin is actually a true populist and not actually the patron of a bunch of pissed feudal lords that have mobilized their clients into civil disobedience. The "endless demonstrations and riots" is an absolutely ludicrous statement that ignores the reality of the situation. They couldn't get out by the ballot box, because he controlled the people that control the elections. When will you realize that. TH You don't seem to have much grasp of how business works. Business likes boring stability. Tanks, riots, airport closures, frequent changes of government tend to frighten all those conservative businesspeople and tourists off. Sure, chaos may be exciting for the street mobs and give non-working expats who prop up bars something to talk about, but any kind of political stability is bad for business. Period. Sure, business sentiment is down anyway. But it's obvious that any additional chaos will only compound an already difficult problem. And if you think that the nation is not divided, and that all the rioting is a sign of unity, then let's agree to disagree. We are poles apart. You always start to use superlative words like 'absolutely', 'ludicrous', 'ridiculous' and the like when your arguments are at their weakest, amounting only to your personal opinions, and you need to make your point by overusing emphasis. There is no alternative to the ballot box, whether you like it or not. Anything else is not a democracy, so let the people decide, and let's agree to disagree. Edited May 13, 2009 by dbrenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Sure, chaos may be exciting for the street mobs and give non-working expats who prop up bars something to talk about, but any kind of political stability is bad for business. Period. As usual, your post is totally right on, however there is a minor error. I think that you meant "instability", rather than "stability". Please keep up the good work. I LOVE your posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 You always start to use superlative words like 'absolutely', 'ludicrous', 'ridiculous' and the like when your arguments are at their weakest, amounting only to your personal opinions, and you need to make your point by overusing emphasis. Another technique i've noticed used by people with weak arguments is to insinuate that those with differing viewpoints are non-working, beer-swilling, bar hoppers aka sexpat. This might also be followed by comments such as "you probably can't vote so your opinion counts for nothing". There is no alternative to the ballot box.... Anything else is not a democracy, If the ballot box is being manipulated and controlled, that's not democracy either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I understand the desirability of stability but you have to balance that against the inherit evil of totalitarian dictatorships ruled by corrupt egomaniacs. Its too bad Thaksin was so bad because if he was a better man, he could have been somebody and served Thailand. Instead, he destroys it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I don't recall any "totalitarian dictatorships" in Thailand for quite some time, although you would think that Thaksin was Pol Pot according to some of the posters on here. Are you sure that you are not getting confused with Burma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Do you also love Chavez? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Do you also love Chavez? He's a nice big round cheeky face I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I don't love or hate either one of them. I do, sort of, love President Obama in a manly, non homosexual manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I don't love or hate either one of them. I do, sort of, love President Obama in a manly, non homosexual manner. I also love President O, and nothing sexual about it (tall skinny people are freaks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 You always start to use superlative words like 'absolutely', 'ludicrous', 'ridiculous' and the like when your arguments are at their weakest, amounting only to your personal opinions, and you need to make your point by overusing emphasis. Another technique i've noticed used by people with weak arguments is to insinuate that those with differing viewpoints are non-working, beer-swilling, bar hoppers aka sexpat. This might also be followed by comments such as "you probably can't vote so your opinion counts for nothing". There is no alternative to the ballot box.... Anything else is not a democracy, If the ballot box is being manipulated and controlled, that's not democracy either. Oh no - you are going back to the old 'Thaksin controls the ballot box', vote buying and all that. You had nothing to say in response to all the people who pointed out to you that all pols buy votes in one way or another - look how much Obama spent on getting elected, etc, etc. And here you are dragging that phoney old argument back up again? And the beer swilling bit? Let me explain. Anyone who denies that the recent chaos and instability has had any effect on tourism and business in Thailand really can't be doing much more than sitting around swilling beer. Even the Nation concedes that chaos is bad for business, and that's saying something. Try asking working people across various industries that deal with the public and private sector what effect they think that rioting and instability has on their job security. And yes, I can vote and you probably can't, which seems to bug you. I worked hard for that right. I resent it when democracy is taken away from Thailand by the army and the mob. Now, I know you are going to say that you don't believe me and ask me to prove that I am Thai, but I'm afraid I'm not going to post a scan of my ID card on a public forum like this. If ever I meet you in person, I will prove it to you if you can prove to me who you really are. But here? No way. You could be an identity thief for all I know, and with a name like 'rixalix' who on earth are you to ask me to prove anything here anyway? This is just an anonymous Internet forum, where nothing is proven. Even Thaivisa.com has no registered business address, so nobody is in a position to prove or be held to account for anything that appears here. We all post here on good faith, accepting in the spirit of what is essentially a completely anonymous forum that the people we are talking to are not misrepresenting themselves. If you can't accept that you have no idea who you are really talking to here, you should stick to real life, although there are lots of people who misrepresent themselves there too, in case you haven't noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Sure, chaos may be exciting for the street mobs and give non-working expats who prop up bars something to talk about, but any kind of political stability is bad for business. Period. As usual, your post is totally right on, however there is a minor error. I think that you meant "instability", rather than "stability". Please keep up the good work. I LOVE your posts! You got me - yes, INSTABILITY is bad for business. Businesspeople and tourists don't mix well with tanks and rioting mobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) And yes, I can vote and you probably can't, which seems to bug you. Oh it drives them nuts trust me No I cannot vote just my wife but it always amuses me when they say things like This might also be followed by comments such as "you probably can't vote so your opinion counts for nothing". There is nothing probable about it....you cant vote unless your a citizen......& yes your opinion does count for nothing in the true scheme of Thai government. They can pretend all they want that a poll of non qualified voters on a forum of non qualified voters count for anything. It is amusing but at the end of the day what gets old is the constant claim that the illegal means they support is justified by the end result. Especially considering the end result is total chaos & instability......... To top it off they will not in the least bit be consistent. I can 100% guarantee that. Edited May 14, 2009 by flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsparrow Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Wow arguement reasoning of the user name "dbrenn" is highly needed in Thai political party, discredit of poster instead of the post, evasive and denial of information when there is no suitaqble information. The person or even better "the user name" can have big fortune in rich political party or academic institution if he is not already in one. Great English user like this can also be useful for English papers who want regular interview. Uhm, this actually remind me of a University lecturer who contributes a lot to you know who.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Wow arguement reasoning of the user name "dbrenn" is highly needed in Thai political party, discredit of poster instead of the post, evasive and denial of information when there is no suitaqble information. The person or even better "the user name" can have big fortune in rich political party or academic institution if he is not already in one. Great English user like this can also be useful for English papers who want regular interview. Uhm, this actually remind me of a University lecturer who contributes a lot to you know who.. Apart from the fact that you don't agree with me, what is your point, o enlightened one? Or, are you just another one of those people who sneer and snipe at posters without actually presenting any arguments of your own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsparrow Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The Greek "Pericle" said something like: "We don't call people who don't care of politics that he cares of his own business only. In fact he has no business here at all." IMHO, the non-voter expat should have their opinion explained in expat internet forum. And it is up to them to decide what Information from the so rightful local voter is cow-drop. The natives shalt have no fear, they have just ideas, merely turn off your computer, no policy of gunship helicopters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsparrow Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Wow arguement reasoning of the user name "dbrenn" is highly needed in Thai political party, discredit of poster instead of the post, evasive and denial of information when there is no suitaqble information. The person or even better "the user name" can have big fortune in rich political party or academic institution if he is not already in one. Great English user like this can also be useful for English papers who want regular interview. Uhm, this actually remind me of a University lecturer who contributes a lot to you know who.. Apart from the fact that you don't agree with me, what is your point, o enlightened one? Or, are you just another one of those people who sneer and snipe at posters without actually presenting any arguments of your own? I can't believe you didn't see my argument in my previous posts. This one is just argument on other user name in the just like what you have on the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Wow arguement reasoning of the user name "dbrenn" is highly needed in Thai political party, discredit of poster instead of the post, evasive and denial of information when there is no suitaqble information. The person or even better "the user name" can have big fortune in rich political party or academic institution if he is not already in one. Great English user like this can also be useful for English papers who want regular interview. Uhm, this actually remind me of a University lecturer who contributes a lot to you know who.. Apart from the fact that you don't agree with me, what is your point, o enlightened one? Or, are you just another one of those people who sneer and snipe at posters without actually presenting any arguments of your own? I can't believe you didn't see my argument in my previous posts. This one is just argument on other user name in the just like what you have on the other. This may sound stange, but I don't have time to read every post on Thaivisa, and given the amount of material that people deposit here I would be surprised if anyone could. I can't recall any of your previous posts, so please indulge me. You accuse me of 'attacking the poster rather than the post' and in doing so you are doing exactly that. Are you a member of Abhisit's government or the PAD? Simply sniping at a poster without actually engaging the matters at hand is not going to get anybody's attention. Edited May 14, 2009 by dbrenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absingjul Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 He could have made a deal, stayed out of prison, keep most of his money, and also his Thai diplomatic passport. King George III made the same offer to George Washington. Maybe he should have accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The Greek "Pericle" said something like:"We don't call people who don't care of politics that he cares of his own business only. In fact he has no business here at all." IMHO, the non-voter expat should have their opinion explained in expat internet forum. And it is up to them to decide what Information from the so rightful local voter is cow-drop. The natives shalt have no fear, they have just ideas, merely turn off your computer, no policy of gunship helicopters. Ah, just spotted this, and what you are saying in the second line is that if we don't care about politics we may end up with nothing. Quite correct. I agree. Politics is part of life, and affects all of us. THe IMHO part of your post, I don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 oldsparrow มหาลัยพายัพ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsparrow Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Please click my name for the previous post. I joined the web last week, not too many posts to look at. "You accuse me of 'attacking the poster rather than the post' and in doing so you are doing exactly that." - ํำYes, You put salt into the soup, I put more water, on course into the same pot. - No I am not in this gov nor any party member, I went to observe both yellow and red gathering, got no ID from both. I like the PAD more, don't say I agree with all their deed though. - Yes, you can be the 1st person who ignor me. I love the dog-drop theory "If you can't wash it out, leave it to dry under the sun, poke at it and it stinks". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I did see a 2006 Coup the other day. But they wanted 500,000 Baht for it which is well out of my budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) He could have made a deal, stayed out of prison, keep most of his money, and also his Thai diplomatic passport. King George III made the same offer to George Washington. Maybe he should have accepted. Do you actually think that is an apt analogy? Sounds even sillier than the Thaksin is Nelson Mandela/Che Gueverra absurdities. Edited May 14, 2009 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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