Lost Divers Off Pattaya

[Phil Conners]

Aleg it is not almost all divers but actually ALL divers that wear a BCD. People have not dived without a BCD since the time of the early Cousteau days.

Not true. 10 years ago I was diving with the Thai Navy divers during a rescue operation and they were using old style horse collars. Not what I'd call a BCD.

[Beardog]

I was a Padi instructor in Hawaii for a couple years logged over 3500 dives. It is common for foreign countries to be lax & not ask to see an advanced card before taking an inexperienced diver on an advanced dive. Wreck diving can produce insane amounts of current. I once went with a fellow instructor that went down (in Maui) to tie off the safety line & he huffed 1200 psi just to tie off .The water current in the surface was relatively calm for Kaanapali. He changed his tank & we experienced over 5+ nautical miles per hour current. We also had Chum to attract sharks to the wreck for viewing.( we collected baby tiger sharks for the aquarium in Maui) The current was so strong we aborted the dive( smart thing to do when it is to hairy) & cut the line to the wreck. Better to lose a little line & get out safely!

We were tethered to my boat above & always have an extra tank & gauges suspended at 20-40 ft pending on the dive.

On any dive you should always have an inflatable sausage - a wristband GPS device (unless you were in the navy years ago on a gorilla dive before GPS tracking devices came out. A sound device(in the unlikely event you do drift off) & a small knife (if you are an instructor to pierce the newbies BCD if they opt to flip out & shoot like a rocket by filling their BCD with copious amounts of air to stop embolism . Sounds to me like shear negligence of the boat owner to not provide the divers with decent line tied to the wreck itself. That and common sense. Abort if in doubt. Better to lose a couple baht than lives....always safety first.

And it is great advice to take a specialty course if you are planning to make wreck diving a habit. If the water is extremely turbid. One can easily develop vertigo & become disoriented. What do you do if you have no clue! To bad about the instructor & the other diver- Hate to hear about bad things happening that could have been avoided if proper redundant procedures are followed.And I do hope the company gets a solid reprimand for sheer negligence on their part!

Barry

[CHdiver]

I was a Padi instructor in Hawaii for a couple years logged over 3500 dives. It is common for foreign countries to be lax & not ask to see an advanced card before taking an inexperienced diver on an advanced dive. Wreck diving can produce insane amounts of current. I once went with a fellow instructor that went down (in Maui) to tie off the safety line & he huffed 1200 psi just to tie off .The water current in the surface was relatively calm for Kaanapali. He changed his tank & we experienced over 5+ nautical miles per hour current. We also had Chum to attract sharks to the wreck for viewing.( we collected baby tiger sharks for the aquarium in Maui) The current was so strong we aborted the dive( smart thing to do when it is to hairy) & cut the line to the wreck. Better to lose a little line & get out safely!

We were tethered to my boat above & always have an extra tank & gauges suspended at 20-40 ft pending on the dive.

On any dive you should always have an inflatable sausage - a wristband GPS device (unless you were in the navy years ago on a gorilla dive before GPS tracking devices came out. A sound device(in the unlikely event you do drift off) & a small knife (if you are an instructor to pierce the newbies BCD if they opt to flip out & shoot like a rocket by filling their BCD with copious amounts of air to stop embolism . Sounds to me like shear negligence of the boat owner to not provide the divers with decent line tied to the wreck itself. That and common sense. Abort if in doubt. Better to lose a couple baht than lives....always safety first.

And it is great advice to take a specialty course if you are planning to make wreck diving a habit. If the water is extremely turbid. One can easily develop vertigo & become disoriented. What do you do if you have no clue! To bad about the instructor & the other diver- Hate to hear about bad things happening that could have been avoided if proper redundant procedures are followed.And I do hope the company gets a solid reprimand for sheer negligence on their part!

Barry

Barry do you know the Divesite? There are two ways to come down to the Hardeep, you can use the permanent descent line, or you drift on the wreck. In stronger currents its much more fun to drift on the wreck.

I hope you are not teaching any more, there are much better methods to prevent a rapid ascent of a Student then to pierce his BCD with a knife . You better use the dump walves. Thats faster and safer as your Student still can use his BCD later on.

[stiggy]

Barry wrote

a small knife (if you are an instructor to pierce the newbies BCD if they opt to flip out & shoot like a rocket by filling their BCD with copious amounts of air to stop embolism...?

Then when they reach the surface alone they are still panicked cannot establish buoyancy and drown.......muppet !

Which agency military or recreational have ever taught such practices ?

You claim 3500 dives yet state this as good practice ! How about good student control or checking out unknown divers in shallow easy conditions first.

Anyhow as for the original news, very sad indeed my condolences to all those affected and my respect to those that have had to venture down and recover the bodies never a pleasant job.

[MeetJohnDoe]

Aleg it is not almost all divers but actually ALL divers that wear a BCD. People have not dived without a BCD since the time of the early Cousteau days.

Not true. 10 years ago I was diving with the Thai Navy divers during a rescue operation and they were using old style horse collars. Not what I'd call a BCD.

Was on a dive a couple years ago in Patters and an old German lady was using one of these collars...I had never seen one before and asked my much more experience buddy what it was and he explained it. Said he too hadn't seen or used one in like 20-25 years.

[AleG]

a small knife (if you are an instructor to pierce the newbies BCD if they opt to flip out & shoot like a rocket by filling their BCD with copious amounts of air to stop embolism

Beardog, you are joking, right??? Please tell me that as an instructor you never actually taught that or never actually did such thing, I hope. I certainly didn't learn such"technique" during my Rescue Diver training.

I mean, that's such a bad idea I could rant for 10 minutes straight against it.

If you are close enough to the distressed diver to hack at the fellow's BCD with a knife, you are close enough to pull on the dumb valve cords and release the air. Secondly, by ripping the BCD, as Stiggy said, the diver won't be able to float on the surface very well. Third, a panicked diver needs to be controlled and calmed, rushing in brandishing a knife and starting to poke holes on his gear won't do that, now would it? In fact it would put the already heightened Flight-or-flee instincts into over drive and have an all out freaked diver to cope with.

How about "witnesses"? they see you stabbing a diver that's trashing around, if the diver subsequently dies how does that look? not only you face serious liability in the aftermath but you may induce panic in other divers that see a maniac attacking another diver.

I frankly find the preposition absolutely ridiculous and dangerous.

[Beardog]

Jees you guys yea that is an old PADI DIVING JOKE. that has been passed on to every instructor since the early 70's.

While it is more fun to be on a drift dive, I think some situations (like a tourist with not many dives logged ) would be the main reason for some safety redundancies in tact. The instructor & tourist would most likely be alive.

And I got out of being an instructor as in Maui Hawaii you can become an open water for $125.00. I made more when I was 16 years old & got out within 2 years of becoming an instructor.

But I do stand by my assumption that the owner of the company is the one at fault for letting a dive get away from him or his instructor. We always used several either instructors or an instructor & a dive master on any wreck dives & as far as I Know unless you know the GPS co-ordinates & are one hel_l of a diver - the only divers that ever made it to Tofuti dive site off Kaanapali were top dog instructors. Or crazy or a little of both. Sorry for the joke I guess it was in bad taste, but at least some of you figured it out quickly. The dive knife is to cut yourself out of an entanglement situation !

Barry do you know the Divesite? There are two ways to come down to the Hardeep, you can use the permanent descent line, or you drift on the wreck. In stronger currents its much more fun to drift on the wreck.

Sorry never been there but if your diving with someone that isn't familiar with currents than I would judge the assessment as a safety first issue. The instructor most likely died trying to save the other diver. Sad but most likely true. Now if the wreck site has little to no currents on a personal dive no problem. The boats I worked on you couldn't do a dive without a descent line. Insurance issues prohibit it. I know Jamaica Mexico & Indonesia are very lax in the way they handle responsibility & safety of other divers.

[AleG]

Jees you guys yea that is an old PADI DIVING JOKE. that has been passed on to every instructor since the early 70's.

Well, that's a relief. I've seen the most egrerious, hare brained things spouted in this forum in all seriousness.

[Beardog]

Jees you guys yea that is an old PADI DIVING JOKE. that has been passed on to every instructor since the early 70's.

Well, that's a relief. I've seen the most egrerious, hare brained things spouted in this forum in all seriousness.

I am sorry for that I guess it was in extremely bad taste & I figured any instructor would have spotted that as an old instructors joke. I guess the sense of humor on TV is down lately due to some people not joking about ridiculous remarks.

The only time one would be apt to see a dive knife(usually half a swords length) would be in a James Bond flick. Before i left in 2004 for Thailand they had a very unfortunate incident Off the Island towards Koalavi Hawaii where one of the local boys(Samoan) got entangled in a net 191 ft down. They were gorilla diver - metal frame backpack no BCD -dual manifold & no tanks suspended off the boat for deco. There were 5 now there are 2 still alive. They are the black coral divers. They were always getting bent. I was on a coast guard rescue run to get Boa to Honolulu to the decompression chamber. He never grasped the seriousness of being safe & off gassing on super deep dives. I love the deep myself & have worked commercially as well when I was a kid & yes my joints are shot from all the time down & living in underground lairs for decompression time.

Once again I apologize to all the divers or tourists who thought I was serious as the lost divers are not a matter to be taken lightly.

Barry

[Basil B]

I was a Padi instructor in Hawaii for a couple years logged over 3500 dives...

5 dives a day???

[Beardog]

First 100 dives in 1974 2 years as a commercial welder under water the better part of 2 years. Hawaii 4-5 dives as a day Padi instructor tour director (boat owner) 3 times a day. with night dives sometimes up to 7 times a day.

A hel_l of a lot more after instructing. Helping course directors in Hawaii Cal. & search & rescue Coast guard rescues Volunteer fireman & responsible for body recoveries in Lake Tahoe California. I stopped logging after 3500 dives as there was no need.

It is all about having fun. I also mapped a lot of Maui's ocean floor for NOAH at 90-200 ft. I was a true waterdog.

The best part was I got to be on my boats 3-5 days a week & catch Mahi Mahi -Onos - Marlin -Tuna& a host of Jacks(Alua)

And also collected for University of Hawaii big Island unique corals for re propagation & gathering up rare species becoming extinct. Also worked for several companies harvesting aquarium fish for money. Those days I would do up to 10 dives at 20 ft or less(6 meters) since it was so shallow you do not load up on nitrogen much & I still used 3 dive computers 1 as a main 2 redundant. If your in the water & do nothing but dive for 11 years as a form of semi retirement you can rack up a lot of dives. But numbers aren't impressive its all about the journey. My favorite is still deep dives dual tanks & a lot of nitrogen!!!!!!!!!

Although you do not get to many dives in a day 2 deep & one shallow or your bent with plenty of time to off gas in between deep dives. it usually takes 30-40 minutes to do deco stops from 40 -30 -20 -15 before you can get up. There is some pretty weird stuff in the deep although not a great abundance. On the big Island of Hawaii the shelf goes from 12 meters to 680 + meters (or more) & if you are unfortunate to get sucked in an under current you will have to break protocol & actually use your BCD to raise you a foot per second or get lost in the deep. You can go from 30 meters to 60 meters in moments. Best not to find any hungry tiger sharks & huff up a lot of air. The west coast in the U.S. beats the heck out of the midwest by a long shot. You can see where your going! Sorry bout long post but I am a true waterdog! And as much as I love Thailand I will always miss the kick ass times in Hawaii!

Cheers

Barry

[britmaveric]

RIP to the divers that were lost. If I recall did Har Deep on my 4th dive on ADV Open Water. I didnt find it any more difficult than any other subsequent dives I have done since. However you are dependent on your buddy and most importantly your instructor when you are dives like this.

first rule if you lose/separated from your buddy is to do a slow ascent and surface.

[threelegcowboy]

I was told by staff at dive shop which provided search team members that the student was found on the sea bed, no facemask, 100bar of air left in tank (half full).

I have tried to find a good account of the events and found only one news story about the Thai Navy recovering one body. Also reported that student recovered on the bottom. Also the diver had become wedged on the bottom. No face mask and 1/2 tank of air. Strong currents possible in the area. Instructor had gone down looking for the student and was drown also, body not recovered.

So let me try to understand these events???????????

Dive trip to shipwreck with one student and instructor. One was Thai for sure but was the other a falang or Thai?

Both went down and strong currents separated them. Student swepted along bottom and lost mask and consiousness, stuck between something on bottom and had half tank air available.

Instructor surfaced as he should to try and find student. He then returned down and met same fate. He probally drown in the current and was swepted away.

Thai Dive boat leaves area and calls Thai Navy.

The Thai Navy was later able to find the student as he was in the area. Instructor swept from site and Navy unable to locate.

Does this sound like what could have happened?

RIP

[Basil B]

There is no accurate information as to what happened because as I understand all witnesses were Thai and as you may be well aware translations end up being more like Chinese whispers than the actual.

First reports seemed to indicate the student was carried away by the strong current, now reports seem to indicate that for some reason the student sank down to the sea bed.

First reports said they were diving in the area of the Harddeep, therefore they may not have been diving the Harddeep.

As I understand the group of divers were Thais from Bangkok who mainly dive weekends as a club which has no connection with Pattaya.

I do hope that at some time in the near future there will be an accurate report that could bring closure to this tragic incident.

[skippybangkok]

Barry do you know the Divesite? There are two ways to come down to the Hardeep, you can use the permanent descent line, or you drift on the wreck. In stronger currents its much more fun to drift on the wreck.

Or go with a Captain who knows the site and its currents well (Somyod from Ray divers ) , typically plonks u off in Zero current, and u just doodle on down.

When i used to go with farang operators, it was usually a dive designed in hel_l due to strong currents... ( remember my first dive ever there with a Farang operation........ had to deflate BCD and jump off the boat holding a line with immediate decent.)

[Jareddiving]

A lot of nonsense on this thread BLEGH!!!!

Everyone knows best..

[dogleg]

The only sign of the instructor to date = one of his fins found.

I have it that 5 'Advanced' O/W students and one instructor were NOT diving the wreck.

One student had a problem with face mask and started wrestling with the instructor when he came to try to help.