How Is The East Going To Be Built?

[Adelita]

Now that the East is growing, how are they going to build it? Will it be built based on the old model of Western capitalism,

or are there enough forward-thinking people here to build a better model of society and economy?

[dageshi]

Problem is no one has a better alternative too western capitalism, for it's faults western capitalism builds a middle class more quickly and efficiently than any other known method. A middle class is the key to the stability of a nations political system and until you've got one that's large enough your doomed too political instability, just look at Thailand for an example of that.

So how will the east do it, well largely speaking it's how will China do it, because frankly China is the nation that matters, and they are going down a capitalist route, slowly but surely, it will take a couple of generations but I expect that sooner or later they will move towards democracy, they can't move too quickly in that direction for fear of suffering the same problems that Thailand has. But given enough time I expect they will implement democratic elections for local officials at a local level where it actually solves real problems without threatening nationwide stability as a whole. I believe they're going to try this in Shenzhen in a couple of years, they tested capitalism in Shenzhen and then rolled it out nationwide, likely they will do the same with democracy.

[phetaroi]

Problem is no one has a better alternative too western capitalism, for it's faults western capitalism builds a middle class more quickly and efficiently than any other known method. A middle class is the key to the stability of a nations political system and until you've got one that's large enough your doomed too political instability, just look at Thailand for an example of that.

So how will the east do it, well largely speaking it's how will China do it, because frankly China is the nation that matters, and they are going down a capitalist route, slowly but surely, it will take a couple of generations but I expect that sooner or later they will move towards democracy, they can't move too quickly in that direction for fear of suffering the same problems that Thailand has. But given enough time I expect they will implement democratic elections for local officials at a local level where it actually solves real problems without threatening nationwide stability as a whole. I believe they're going to try this in Shenzhen in a couple of years, they tested capitalism in Shenzhen and then rolled it out nationwide, likely they will do the same with democracy.

Adelita has an odd view of the world. If you go back and search here posts here in this forum, many are about having things delivered to her (?) or her being served. She apparently is from a family with some money and does little for herself. Things are often done for her. I am not saying this to insult her, I am simply mentioning what comes across in her posts. She often writes about having food (either prepared meals or food from markets) delivered to her, not about her own experiences shopping. She talks about her family providing her income. And all that is fine. I don't begrudge her apparent wealth and that she finds life rather easy. I'd love for her to fill in some biographical information so I could more accurately understand where she is coming from.

My point here is how she phrases this question. She poses it as if on some particular day "the East" will decide to develop a new economic system. First, there is not "the East". There are the power houses of China and Japan, each with drastically different economices. Then there are the Little Tigers, of which some would include Thailand.

The East is not going to start forming a new economic model. Economic models will evolve over time, as they always have done.

We are seeing something very similar right now in the United States. You have an interesting response to the current economic woes here -- the forces of change are trying to impose what some would call progressive, liberal economic models on our current system, while the current system attempts to maintain itself. That is the nature of the world, and what will happen is some slow (or not so slow) evolution, but not a drastic shift in Western economic models.

[SpoliaOpima]

The two previous posts seem pretty accurate.

I would further question the OP's idea that 'now' the 'East' is growing. I've been here over 30 years and it has been growing the whole time.

It's not as if there's a central planning committee for Thailand that can sit down and ponder the question, "How should we grow?" In fact, aside from the largely ad hoc nature in which economic and social development occurs in most countries (including China), there's the fact that Thailand, like any smaller economy in the world, is largely at the mercy of much larger countries and more powerful political entities.

The closest Thailand has come to a real plan is the 'new politics' of the PAD and the 'sufficiency economy' of HM the King. I personally support both but find that most westerners, especially those who have not been in Thailand more than, say 10 years, find such control abhorrent.

[MJo]

The two previous posts seem pretty accurate.

I would further question the OP's idea that 'now' the 'East' is growing. I've been here over 30 years and it has been growing the whole time.

It's not as if there's a central planning committee for Thailand that can sit down and ponder the question, "How should we grow?" In fact, aside from the largely ad hoc nature in which economic and social development occurs in most countries (including China), there's the fact that Thailand, like any smaller economy in the world, is largely at the mercy of much larger countries and more powerful political entities.

The closest Thailand has come to a real plan is the 'new politics' of the PAD and the 'sufficiency economy' of HM the King. I personally support both but find that most westerners, especially those who have not been in Thailand more than, say 10 years, find such control abhorrent.

Well that's one way to let us know you have been around a while and judge one's understanding of politics and asian cultures by the time they have spend here.

Well i do not agree with that, the PAD policies are hardly new and sufficiency economy is mainly common sense. Naturally you can dismiss my comments on the basis that i still have 20 years wait before i can see the light.

Agree though that Phetaroi got it covered quite well. And OP is taking the first steps of having to do things for herself, the treads are about services and deliveries and how credit cards work. And nothing wrong with that, we all go thru it some sooner some later.

[JimsKnight]

Now that the East is growing, how are they going to build it? Will it be built based on the old model of Western capitalism,

or are there enough forward-thinking people here to build a better model of society and economy?

With a bucket and spade and a dose of Sanuuk to keep the men happy

The east is already built, Mcfly.

Capitalism already is here, has been for decades, centuries in one form or another.

It's tried and tested, stood the test of time...

[Orac]

From what I have learnt over the last few months from the Financial Apocalypse/Doom and Gloom Thread, the 'East' will be built by economic migrants fleeing the ruins of Europe and North America, coupled with expats who are already in place. Thailand is at the forefront of this cunning plan and already has a labour camp set up on the Eastern Seaboard called Pat-Tai-Yuh and have completely fooled the expat community throughout Thailand into thinking they are trying to get rid of them whereas they are just waiting for the moment to close the borders and seal them in (note trial run at only major airport last year).

There again, I could be wrong!

[thaicbr]

Orac............. :D :D :D

[MJo]

Luckily you did not post that one to the "they are out to get us" thread. If the word gets out there it will result mass exodus where malaysians and singaporeans are going to have to rescue the expat "boat people" from Thailand seeking asylum.

[Orac]

MJo,

If I were you I would get to Isaan quickly before it cedes from the Chinese/Thai Empire. Our 'agents', who have managed to infiltrate every bar in Pat-Tai-Yuh, tell us that things are going to start happenning pretty soon as some of the expats have now noticed that the Thais cannot really stand them and the pretend 'smiles' aren't working anymore. Apparently they intend to use the labour force currently in Pat-Tai-Yuh to build a 'railway' to Bangkok (Codename Operation BTS) utilising western bridge building skills - word has it the Japanese are funding most of it!

[SpoliaOpima]

The two previous posts seem pretty accurate.

I would further question the OP's idea that 'now' the 'East' is growing. I've been here over 30 years and it has been growing the whole time.

It's not as if there's a central planning committee for Thailand that can sit down and ponder the question, "How should we grow?" In fact, aside from the largely ad hoc nature in which economic and social development occurs in most countries (including China), there's the fact that Thailand, like any smaller economy in the world, is largely at the mercy of much larger countries and more powerful political entities.

The closest Thailand has come to a real plan is the 'new politics' of the PAD and the 'sufficiency economy' of HM the King. I personally support both but find that most westerners, especially those who have not been in Thailand more than, say 10 years, find such control abhorrent.

Well that's one way to let us know you have been around a while and judge one's understanding of politics and asian cultures by the time they have spend here.

Well i do not agree with that, the PAD policies are hardly new and sufficiency economy is mainly common sense. Naturally you can dismiss my comments on the basis that i still have 20 years wait before i can see the light.

Agree though that Phetaroi got it covered quite well. And OP is taking the first steps of having to do things for herself, the treads are about services and deliveries and how credit cards work. And nothing wrong with that, we all go thru it some sooner some later.

Well that's one way to let us know you lack skills in reading comprehension I said nothing about the plan being new.

I do agree they're both common sense

As far how long you've been here and how that might or might not relate to one's political opinions, that's just a personal observation, but in fact you seem to bear it out, ie you've been here 10 years and you seem to have a reasonable point of view. One could take a poll to see if there's any correlation, I suppose. In my own experience it lines up that way at least 90 percent of the time.

The point is there is plenty of growth and has been since the early 1980s, and very little planning. With the cyclical nature of Thai politics, I'm optimistic we won't see much change in that department

[wester]

Ha! They won't. They have attached themselves to the caboose of the speeding train and the engine has already dropped over the side of a cliff.....

Ultimately we will all hang together (east and west) or we will hang separately.

[jackdanielsesq]

Everytime someone suggests we lose the U$D and use?? instead, it dies. Same/Same. We didnt force the Dollar on anyone - it evolved.

Which one would ya rather have? USSR Cuba China ? Remember, ya inherit everything with them, cannot pick and choose.

Its the same as some 3rd Worlders saying that colonialism - in all its guises - trashes their local culture!

OK - hand back all the Mobiles, KFC, ISP Autos, and go back to pushing a rock with a stick.

BR>Jack

[MJo]

The point is there is plenty of growth and has been since the early 1980s, and very little planning. With the cyclical nature of Thai politics, I'm optimistic we won't see much change in that department

This is spot on, as the government come and go they all pretty much just cash in as soon as possible before next one comes with their "mega projects". Good example is the present BTS and MRT line extensions. They were planned in the 1970's ?

This problems is actually everywhere in asia, Jakarta has it famous monorail project that been on-hold god knows how long. The columns are there in some part but that's it. Manila has it's new aiport terminal build in 2003 if i remember correctly which i hear is finally open at least partly.

[Meridian007]

Everytime someone suggests we lose the U$D and use?? instead, it dies. Same/Same. We didnt force the Dollar on anyone - it evolved.

True, there is an evolution of global politics that is constantly on the move, but there are more factors than just economy. If you take the U.S.$ for example, it has lost some of its status as the U.S. economy went down the drain, to be replaced by the Euro.

A lot of that is caused by perception of stability, as well as form of government, instead of just economic power. If China had a democracy, the Yuan would probably by now be the "global standard", but people equate communism with instability and are unsure of what will happen with their investments in a non-democratic country.

The E.U. has proven that nation states can come together to make a stronger whole, and I think that may be where S.E.A. will go. You have the great Asian powers such as Japan and China, so the smaller countries have to do something to keep a certain amount of autonomy from, and be competitive with, them and the western powers.

Time will tell with the A.S.E.A.N, it may become as "united" as the E.U. and join China and Japan as a "global north" power. Or, if they cannot move beyond their smaller cultural and pride issues, the countries of the A.S.E.A.N. will continue being isolated developing countries, destined to be pushed around by the greater powers.

The "better model of society and economy" depends on your point of view. If you can reduce everything down to money, it is pretty clear that some political, economical and cultural forms are more successful than others. The problem stems from how much "loss of culture" or "absorption of culture" a country is willing to initiate, and how its population will react to it. Is it better to be an international economic power, or is it better to retain traditional religious and cultural ideas that may restrain you from developing crucial economic ties?

[IanForbes]

Pretty good discussion with a lot of valid replies and a little bit of humour... thanks for that, Orac.

The FASTEST way to improve a backward, 3rd world country is having a benevolent dictator build the proper infrastructure. Tito held the former Yugoslavia together for many years until it all went to hel_l after he died. Unfortunately, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. No dictator should be in longer than 10 years. After that you need some sort of democratic government. The best government is a combination of socialism and capitalism. Pure capitalism is just as bad as pure socialism. Look what happened recently to the world economy run by pure capitalists. Most turned into greedy crooks.

I believe that the leaders in the handful of world powers already understand the necessity of world trade and maintaining some semblance of order. China is unlikely to piss in its own nest and will slowly evolve into something resembling the USA system.