Police Charged Over Drug War

[hammered]

What a lot forget to look at when considering this issue is who inherited the (majority of the) drug trade after the war. There was a realignment or shall we say it became a lot more monoplistic for at least quite some time.

It wasnt just about doing something brutal and amking many people happy. It resulted in advantaging a certain major "group" too and that has ramifications to this very day.

Sorry, unless you are a bit more specific, this is just conspiracy theory style hearsay.

I guess that you specify TRT allied forces. Well, that is only natural and unavoidable in a place like Thailand, that provincial and underground power networks will ally themselves with the larger power in the state. That does not mean though that the larger power in the state condones this necessarily, especially when it comes to drug based networks. This is one of the many uncomfortable truths that i hinted at, which are a fault of the system beyond what any politician or government can change easily.

The same way you have had many of such underground networks who have lost out during TRT days paying large sums to the PAD. If you look at many of the provincial PAD chapters, you will find that they consist of money lenders and underground lottery networks, both who have heavily lost out during TRT days, by either the village loan scemes and the lottery policies of TRT.

In terms of the drug war, of course TRT allied networks have survived it much better than unrelated drug networks. Nevertheless, the amount of drugs decreased so heavily, that profits have, even though the price increase, been heavily diminished by unproportionally increased risk. Don't forget, many of the drug war killings have also been silencing killings, in which those and police networks have cut off their links to themselves by killing underlings.

It is a fact that drugs did disappear for many years from many communities, were simply not available, and in many other urban communities they were far more scarce due to the risk involved. And different than in the past, police connections could not save one anymore, unless millions of baht were involved, once caught.

What i try to say here is that the spread of drugs, and the drug war were extremely complex social mechanics, direcly linked to specifics of the built up of thai society and the failings of the system. Reducing this to "evil Thaksin kills people" does not justice to these complexities. Simply going after a few triggermen and recipients of orders without papertrail may put a tiny percentage of the guilty parties to jail, but it will do nothing to the enabling system, which is still in place, untouched. A few symolic convictions will change nothing, are political, and obfuscate a system that is of use to many factions of power, including this government and its backers.

I could be a lot more specific but I have said enough already.

[hammered]

Thaksin got stuff done.

What has anybody done since?

Not squat.

Call him what you will, he was effective.

And the scumball druggies knew it.

The problem was the collateral damage. Innocent people got caught up in the killing frenzy.

If we believe in the rule of law and democracy everyone killed was innocent as they had not been to trial.

If people want to apologise for, explain away or excuse the drug war I think that is up to them but if they do take that line then they must be willing to admit they dont support democracy or the rule of law to avoid hypocricy. Let them be honest.

OMR I am not labelling you here but just wanted to latch on to the innocent comment to make a point.

[Plus]

Sure lots of users were rehabilitated, for the first time there were not treated like criminals. Thousands went to police stations, pledged to stay off drugs and all was well for them.

We can speculate now if they would have stayed clean if not for daily murders of less lucky ones. That must have increased their motivation. What if those killings were the cornerstone of the program's success?

Yes, the drug war was effective, if you ignore thousands innocent people slain without mercy. Apparently even in the 21 century there are people who put lives on a scale and weigh them against benefits.

Incidentally, Thaksin was threatening to destroy Burmese production facilities, he was fuming and banging his fist on the table and had satellite images of their drug towns. In the end he preferred killing his own people instead.

[BigSnake]

Go after the big boss if you have the BALLS

[ballpoint]

Thaksin got stuff done.

What has anybody done since?

Not squat.

Call him what you will, he was effective.

And the scumball druggies knew it.

By your own admission on your first post, he was not effective, the drugs have returned. Thaksin is all smoke and mirrors, quick fixes and sweeping it all under the carpet. He is living proof that you can delude most of the people some of the time, and totally fool some of the people all of the time, and he played on that. Sure, he severely limited the flow of drugs to regular people (but not to anyone with any influence) while his war was in operation, but in no way did he take steps to ensure the continued success of the operation by going after the big fish. He puts on a big show, impresses the gullible, and moves on leaving others to clean up after him. His war on drugs is entirely comparable to someone promising to eradicate malaria from your town by coming in and pumping poison everywhere, thus killing every mosquito, plus a few animals and children. A bit of collateral damage? No problem, the malaria is gone. The man moves on, and in a short time, the mosquitos are back.

It's also surprising, or maybe not, that some posters who in the past have said they never supported Thaksin, and these extra judicial killings, but doubted anything would get done about it, are now coming out and trying to justify them. Maybe not surprising because with each Thaksin stone this government has overturned, these same people have come scurrying out in his defense. Backtracking on earlier posts, peeling away the layers of denial until left naked and revealing the "I heart Thaksin" tattoo on their defenseless rumps. Trying to justify the killing of even one innocent amongst hundreds of guilty by saying many supported it, and it was for the common good, is a defense that would not have gone amiss at those famous trials in Germany at the end of WW2.

[Journalist]

If we believe in the rule of law and democracy everyone killed was innocent as they had not been to trial.

Oh, thats a good point. I hadn't looked on it that way, but thats quite correct.

They were innocent.

....still vermin who needed killin' mind .......

[Old Man River]

Thaksin got stuff done.

What has anybody done since?

Not squat.

Call him what you will, he was effective.

And the scumball druggies knew it.

The problem was the collateral damage. Innocent people got caught up in the killing frenzy.

If we believe in the rule of law and democracy everyone killed was innocent as they had not been to trial.

If people want to apologise for, explain away or excuse the drug war I think that is up to them but if they do take that line then they must be willing to admit they dont support democracy or the rule of law to avoid hypocricy. Let them be honest.

OMR I am not labelling you here but just wanted to latch on to the innocent comment to make a point.

It is OK to label me. It wasn't an innocent comment. I am one of the Bangkokians who supported this. It just got out of hand when it got out of hand. Sometimes, the end justifies the means. In this case, it didn't turn out that way.

[rixalex]

....still vermin who needed killin' mind .......

What qualifies you to label these thousands of people as vermin? I assume you must be privy to the case history and background details of each and every one of them? Please share.

[Journalist]

....still vermin who needed killin' mind .......

What qualifies you to label these thousands of people as vermin? I assume you must be privy to the case history and background details of each and every one of them? Please share.

Oh they were vermin alright. Okay, maybe a couple of them were caught in friendly fire, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. War is war. This was a declared war. Usual courtesies don't apply

To prove it.....would you allow any to come to your house and live in your larder? Would you mind if your daughter went to a rave with one?

Nope.

Didn't think so

Cocky little chicos on a motorbike, sociopaths with a sneer . Disrespectful to elders. Think they know it all. We all know the type. No use to society. Best rid.

[Texpat]

The nesty, addictive drugs that have returned are killing a lot more than few thousand innocents.

Pull yer head out.

If you're in favor of drug-addled crazies stealing, robbing, raping and killing, just come out and say it.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Texpat

[rixalex]

....still vermin who needed killin' mind .......

What qualifies you to label these thousands of people as vermin? I assume you must be privy to the case history and background details of each and every one of them? Please share.

Oh they were vermin alright. Okay, maybe a couple of them were caught in friendly fire, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. War is war. This was a declared war. Usual courtesies don't apply

To prove it.....would you allow any to come to your house and live in your larder? Would you mind if your daughter went to a rave with one?

Nope.

Didn't think so

Cocky little chicos on a motorbike, sociopaths with a sneer . Disrespectful to elders. Think they know it all. We all know the type. No use to society. Best rid.

Easy to be blasaie about loss of innocent life when you or your family is not the victim i guess. Would you be so philosophical were it your daughter gunned down in the street?

And you still haven't substaniated just how it is that you know who these people were and whether indeed any of them were "vermin".

[rixalex]

If you're in favor of drug-addled crazies stealing, robbing, raping and killing, just come out and say it.

And if you are in favour of shooting people down in the streets like dogs and without trial, just come out and say it.

To think we have had to listen to your diatribes on free and fair democracy!

[JetsetBkk]

Waiting for the News Clippings Forum to be established.

and once that was done, a few of us have been making posts on the subject for quite some time...

I have no doubt that the status quo CAN change, and yes, things do change.... but I do not believe he is personally responsible for it. What do you feel he has changed?

Curtailment of civil liberties and freedom of the press (2500 uninvestigated killings last year during HIS drug war...

Thanks for the link and I congratulate you for being the most consistent Thaksin basher that I have found on the forum.

It is very interesting to look at the last 3 or 4 pages - the oldest pages - in the News Clippings forum and see how many topics got zero replies. These days, such topics would get 100's of posts I'm sure. This one is just begging for a huge number of replies, but got only 2. Amazing.

PM slams corrupt politicians

BANGKOK: Politicians are responsible for most of the corruption involving state enterprises, the prime minister said yesterday.....

[justanothercybertosser]

Sorry, unless you are a bit more specific, this is just conspiracy theory style hearsay.

You are throwing around with semantics.

I have been specific very much, about this government. But again: The system that has allowed to set up the Blue Shirts to attack and fight Red Shirts in Pattaya, circumventing any law i am aware off, is exactly the same underlying system that has allowed to set up the drug war killings. The drug war killings of course have cost far more victims. But can we be sure that the strategy that has resulted in the Blue Shirts will not cost the next time, or the time after the next time, many dead?

In the past the exact same strategies have cost numerous victims, only then it was called "Kratingdaeng" and "Navapol", or shady death squads killing drug dealers, or suspected insurgents (which still goes on, the same it did under the TRT government, the coup installed government, and now under the Democrats).

It is a question of principle here. Any government here circumvents the law, when it is opportune, and gets away with it. Incuding this government.

[spongeman]

After the LM charge this is another feeble attempt to discredit him in the eyes of his followers. Of course he allowed the BIB to execute people, in return for their loyalty. The poor Dems are so preoccupied by this man that they will never be able to achieve anything.

Hear, Hear.

The way this administration are heading Thailand will be infested with drugs again. Why d'ont the government come up with some suitable policies for dealing with the problem instead of farting around ?

This personal agenda by whoever in Thailand is a smokescreen to hide their own failures.

[Journalist]

....still vermin who needed killin' mind .......

What qualifies you to label these thousands of people as vermin? I assume you must be privy to the case history and background details of each and every one of them? Please share.

Oh they were vermin alright. Okay, maybe a couple of them were caught in friendly fire, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. War is war. This was a declared war. Usual courtesies don't apply

To prove it.....would you allow any to come to your house and live in your larder? Would you mind if your daughter went to a rave with one?

Nope.

Didn't think so

Cocky little chicos on a motorbike, sociopaths with a sneer . Disrespectful to elders. Think they know it all. We all know the type. No use to society. Best rid.

Easy to be blasaie about loss of innocent life when you or your family is not the victim i guess. Would you be so philosophical were it your daughter gunned down in the street?

And you still haven't substaniated just how it is that you know who these people were and whether indeed any of them were "vermin".

I don't need to know names and addresses of drug pushers in order to believe that drug pushers and traffickers are vermin.

The ones who weren't drug pushers, aren't vermin. The ones who were, are. Simple as that.

Its as axiomatic as the statement that politicians who steal money are therefore corrupt. It follows.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Journalist

[Plus]

I believe 800 out of all killed had no relation to drug dealing at all. That's a lot of "collateral damage" in three months. Those who were vermin, didn't deserve to die either, as thousands of their fellow vermin survived just fine.

But I guess it's pointless to argue the value of human lives, innocent or vermin, with some of our posters here. Civilisation apparently hasn't reached all yet.

[rixalex]

What qualifies you to label these thousands of people as vermin? I assume you must be privy to the case history and background details of each and every one of them? Please share.

Oh they were vermin alright. Okay, maybe a couple of them were caught in friendly fire, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. War is war. This was a declared war. Usual courtesies don't apply

Easy to be blasaie about loss of innocent life when you or your family is not the victim i guess. Would you be so philosophical were it your daughter gunned down in the street?

And you still haven't substaniated just how it is that you know who these people were and whether indeed any of them were "vermin".

I don't need to know names and addresses of drug pushers in order to believe that drug pushers and traffickers are vermin.

The ones who weren't drug pushers, aren't vermin. The ones who were, are. Simple as that.

You seem to either be missing the point or deliberately avoiding it.

How do we know that those killed were drug pushers? The whole point of having trials is that it establishes what is vermin and what is not.

And were your daughter one of the innocent caught up in the "war", would you reason that the sacrifice was worth it for the greater good of the country, or would you fight with every last bone in your body to see both the person who pulled the trigger and the person who gave them that right, brought to justice?

[Plus]

would you fight with every last bone in your body

I'd go out on a limb and say that many people do not want children to avoid this kind of inconvenience.

[Journalist]

would you fight with every last bone in your body

I'd go out on a limb and say that many people do not want children to avoid this kind of inconvenience.

I don't agree. I want my children to avoid the inconvenience of being shot through the head.

[Plus]

So, how is it with vermin question, then? Why tens of thousands of vermin on black lists survived unharmed while others were shot without mercy? Is there difference among them? Shouldn't they all be put in gas chambers or something?

How about exterminating all their blood lines?

[Journalist]

^Check out the movie 'Idiocracy' ...which expresses a dumbed-down future in which the illiterate vermin have bred like rabbits while the smart ones have abstained from reproducing, worrying about mortgage repayments and health insurance.

[Plus]

There was nothing about smart ones and mortgage payments in that movie, just a comedy on a society run by "dudes".

[Journalist]

^At the beginning there was, (perhaps before the opening credits). That couple who kept rationalising why now was not a good time to have children. Then the husband dies and their family tree is truncated.

That was juxtaposed in split screen, against a vermin underclass family whose family tree kept expanding.

The theme of the movie wasn't 'dudes' . it was the dumbing down of the nation. To think the movie was about dudes and rock and roll and wrestling and hamburger joints, Beef Supreme and the dill-dozer, is ....the sort of thing that the kind of person who likes those sort of entertainments would think!

It was about eugenics.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Journalist

[Plus]

I don't remember anything about wrestling and hamburger joints, but everyone addressed each other as "dude" there, and the cast seemed to be straight out of "jackass" movies.

Actually there was a very similar kind of movie around the same time - "The hunt for the big foot" or something. Same "dudes", modern times.

[samgrowth]

Drug users / dealers are all bad people.

Police are all good people.

[Old Man River]

Sorry, unless you are a bit more specific, this is just conspiracy theory style hearsay.

You are throwing around with semantics.

I am throwing semantics around?

I was just quoting you! If the shoe fits, wear it.

[justanothercybertosser]

I was just quoting you! If the shoe fits, wear it.

The shoe doesn't fit though, as i have been very specific in the course of this threat in my posts, unlike the post i have responded to was (go back and read the posts again).

And you, as most here, have yet failed to respond to those specifics i have raised... well, other than two snide remarks from you.

Is it that i might have been a bit too specific?

Edited May 26, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Old Man River]

I was just quoting you! If the shoe fits, wear it.

The shoe doesn't fit though, as i have been very specific in the course of this threat in my posts, unlike the post i have responded to was (go back and read the posts again).

And you, as most here, have yet failed to respond to those specifics i have raised... well, other than two snide remarks from you.

Is it that i might have been a bit too specific?

The bottom line. If you are going to state your opinions, who can argue? If you are going to make statements as if they are facts, then prove them. I don't see what is so hard about this.

[justanothercybertosser]

The bottom line. If you are going to state your opinions, who can argue? If you are going to make statements as if they are facts, then prove them. I don't see what is so hard about this.

What, specifically, have i not proven?